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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Daimler Dart on Sunday 08 January 12 18:08 GMT (UK)
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I have been unsuccessful in tracing the marriage of my Grandfather Thomas Race (born Limehouse London) April 1863, died 8 August 1938 and my grandmother Emma Tallett / nee Pembroke (born Greenwich 1866). They had 3 surviving children, Alice, Ethel and Harry. I believe that my grandmother died 4 September 1943 in Orpington, under the name Emma Pembroke. I have the 3 birth certificates of their children. On all 3 certificates the mother is cited as Emma Race, sometimes formerly Tallett or Pembroke. In Aug 1883 Emma Tallett married John Pembroke and they had 4 children. The 1901 Census shows her as a widow. Can it be that Thomas and Emma never married. Love to know the answer to that question as I have been investigating for 6 months and cannot find the answer.
Any assistance gratefully received.
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If Emma died as Mrs Pembroke then it is pretty certain that she never married Thomas Race. Have you been able to identify the informant on her death certificate? S/he wouldn't have had to show a marriage certificate when registering the births of their children and no doubt they thought of themselves as married. Have you been able to trace the death of John Pembroke?
Ermy
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In what year was the first child born to Thomas and Emma?
charlotte
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and welcome to rootschat ;D ;D.... forgot to say that last post :-[
charlotte
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If Emma died as Mrs Pembroke then it is pretty certain that she never married Thomas Race. Have you been able to identify the informant on her death certificate? S/he wouldn't have had to show a marriage certificate when registering the births of their children and no doubt they thought of themselves as married. Have you been able to trace the death of John Pembroke?
Ermy
No, I have been trying to trace death of John Edward Pembroke. I can find him in the marriage, baptism and census records. The last record of him was in 1891. The 1901 Census shows Emma Pembroke as 'head' and a widow. Emma had a daughter Jane Sarah, who married a W.J. Cromarty. It was W.J. Cromarty who reported the death of Emma Pembroke on 4 September 1943. Cromarty is mentioned as the son-in-law. Emma Pembroke's death cert also mentions her as a widow of John Edward Pembroke (a ships fireman). Can he have dies overseas? This is important to my family, so thank you so much for your time.
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In what year was the first child born to Thomas and Emma?
December 1902, Alice Julia Race was born to Thomas Frederick Race and Emma Race (formerly Pembroke). Dec 1905 2nd child born was Ethel, Thomas Race father, Emma Race (formerly Pembroke). My father Harry Race was born 14 Dec 1908, father Thomas Race / Emma Tallett formerly Tallett. The difficulty in tracing my grandfather has been that he was known in the family as Fred, I can trace him on 14 occassions, on 13 he uses Thomas Race, but his death certificate shows Frederick Thomas Race. Strangely, the burial register at the cemetry lists him as Thomas Frederick Race. I have obtained (what I believe) is his birth cert, where he is named as Thomas Race (no mention of Frederick). There are many men that have the the name Thomas Race, but they mostly seem to eminane from the Durham area. I am shure that my grandfather never left London. He lived all his life in the Deptford area of London (Kent in 1860). Thank you so much for your interest. This really bugging me and I have reached a dead end.
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Hi and welcome from me too :)
Nothing on a marriage so far, though I agree with Ermintrude that if she died as Pembroke, it is unlikely that she married Thomas Race.
I did find this though, which fits John Pembroke's age:
Death in the GRO Marine Death 1846-1902
1898 Page 32
Vessel - Tern
John Pembroke aged 35. Died 'at sea'
The cert can be ordered through the GRO online service as normal
gnu
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Hi Again
I forgot to ask if you'd checked them out on the 1911? This will give you more information about the length of the marriage. Although this might not be correct if they weren't ever married.
We can't give any details here because of Rootschat's rules but you could find them easily using the information that you have. Also, see
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,492718.0.html
gnu
PS - I see from the 1891 and 1901 that Emma is down as born Deptford not Greenwich
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Hi Again
I forgot to ask if you'd checked them out on the 1911? This will give you more information about the length of the marriage. Although this might not be correct if they weren't ever married.
We can't give any details here because of Rootschat's rules but you could find them easily using the information that you have. Also, see
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,492718.0.html
gnu
PS - I see from the 1891 and 1901 that Emma is down as born Deptford not Greenwich
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Yes, you're correct as Emma Tallet was born in Deptford. I mentioned Greenwich as that was the district. On the 1911 Census, it shows Thomas (+possible indistinct initial) Race age 48 Emma Race age 44 + 3 children (Alice, Ethel, Harry) & 1 deceased child (any ideas how I trace the name of the deceased child?). The length of marriage is cited as 12 years (but Emma Pembroke in 1901 Census is shown as the head and a widow living with her 3 children. I have used every possible combination of name and initial for the pair. Have been trying to trace a marriage for the past 6 month(no success yet).
Thank you for your continued interest.
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Did you see the death record that I found for John Pembroke? This fits with the 12 years marriage
Death in the GRO Marine Death 1846-1902
1898 Page 32
Vessel - Tern
John Pembroke aged 35. Died 'at sea'
The cert can be ordered through the GRO online service as normal
I don't think they (she and Thomas) actually married, especially given her name on the death cert.
gnu
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Hmmmm, if that is Emma's husband's death maybe it was Thomas Race who wasn't free to marry. Have you found him on the censuses before he and Emma got together? This could be the missing child who died young:
Births Dec 1900
Race Annie Greenwich 1d 967
Deaths Dec 1900
Race Annie 0 Greenwich 1d 564
Ermy
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Thanks again for your interest and research. I have thought that perhaps my grandfather Thomas was not free to marry. What is strange is that my father told me that he had 12 siblings, though it is only me (from a family of six children) that recalls this. I can only trace 9 children (2 deceased) through Emma Pembroke/Race. I have thought that it is possible that my grandfather married before meeting Emma. That fits ..... but 1871 census shows him (Thomas Race) in a workhouse / 1881 shows him living with mother Hannah & William (brother) 1891 census shows him living with Hannah & William. He disappears in 1901 (there is mention of a Thomas Race in 1901 but he was from Durham). The 1911 Census shows him living with Emma Race (wife of 12 years) and children Alice / Ethel / Harry + 1 child deceased. He disappears from the records for 20 years, so I guess that he could have married (but I can find no trace of a marriage). I have obtained the birth certificate that you mention for Annie Race, but the parentage is wrong. This is becoming quite a brainteaser!!
Can you suggest how, or help with tracing my grandmother's grave/burial place? She was cited on her death certificare as Emma Pembroke, widow of John Pembroke. She died on 4 September 1943 at the County Hospital Orpington. Address on d?cert was 28 Portland Road Mottingham, SE9. If you can figure this out you will be my hero for life.
Thanks again, god bless and good night.
Tom Race (yes, I share grandfather's name)
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Funnily enough, my nan lived in Kimmeridge Road, Mottingham, just a few streets away from Portland Road. My nan was buried in Grove Park Cemetary, in Marvels Lane, as this is/was the local cemetary run by the London Borough of Lewisham (though technically that bit of Mottingham is actually under the London Borough of Bromley). You can apply for a search of Lewisham burial/cremation records here http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/birthsdeathsmarriages/Pages/Historical-records.aspx
Would probably be worth checking under both names of Pembroke and Race, tho' possibly she was buried as Pembroke but any headstone may have shown Race to keep up appearances ;)
How about this child:
Births Jun 1899 Pembroke William Greenwich 1d 1073
Deaths Jun 1901 Pembroke William 1 Greenwich 1d 537
No other Race children seem to fit the bill in Greenwich, tho' could have died in hospital out of the area I guess.
Ermy
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Thanks again, your marvellous.
I have contacted the Lewisham office re burials/cremations. No luck there or in Greenwich or Bexley. Bromley seems a good bet. but requires a £39 fee to search. This is now in hand. I will let you know how I get on.
Re the deceased child on the 1911 census, I will obtain the birth and death records on the numbers that you supplied. Again, I will update you.
I did once live in the Grove Park area as a young man, but have now move to Torquay, in Devon. So it is quite a trudge to go and search the records manually. Thank god for modern internet.
Regarding the info for John Pembroke who died at sea, I have been able to find a very good photo of the Royal Mail SS Trent, the ship that he was on.
Thanks again for you help.
Good luck
Tom Race
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Hello,
I have come in late on this discussion so will have to read all the messages properly first to catch up. However, Emma Tallet marr John Pembroke is from the same family of Tallets who married into my maternal Saunders family. Her brother, John, married Elizabeth Jane Saunders, my grandfather's sister.
I don't have much on the Pembrokes and some of what is in the messages is news to me, but I am happy to share. If you send me a private message, I will give you my email address.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Yours
Vicwinann.
PS addition. I have Emma's marriage as 1883 Bethnal Green Reg Dist Sept Qutr but don't have the cert as final proof. Mistranscribed as TALLID
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Emma Tallid married John Pembroke at St James the great Bethnal Green on 6th Aug 1883. He was of full age ,she just 19.He was a plasterer and they both came from Bethnal Green.His dad was Henry Pembroke an engineer and hers Willaim Tallid(deceased)
He signed,she marked with a X .
Witnesses were Frederick Chr. Henry Gutropf and Matilda Julia Lawrence.
Carol
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Hello,
Thanks for that, Carol. That has added to my knowledge and proofs. Emma was actually only 17 so she told a porkie or didn't know her true age. Her father was William, yes, and he died in 1874. The witness names I do not recognise. Matilda Lawrence possibly a married sister of John. His mother was also Matilda.
Vicwinann
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Tom I am new to this site but have been 'doing' the family tree for a few months. John Pembroke was my great grandfather and Emily Pembroke (his daughter) was my grandmother. I too drew a blank for details about the death of John Pembroke and so this link has helped me no end as I kept coming up with nothing. By 1901 Emma was a widow and I only knew that she had remarried/had a new partner when I started looking for the 1911 census and the name Emma Race appeared. So many thanks I can now rest easy (for that part of the tree anyway!) Maureen
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Good afternoon and many thanks for your rerply. I have very little re Emily Pembroke and would like to know more on what you have. I can offer an very good photo of Thomas W Pembroke in WW1 Army uniform. As you probably know he died in Flanders in 1916. I also have his burial record and medals. He, was called Tommy by my father. Also, I have the birth and death certs for Emma Pembroke. If you like to contact me again ploease use; email (*).
Thanks again
Tom Race
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