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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Canada Lookup Request => Topic started by: Pat R on Sunday 08 January 12 10:24 GMT (UK)
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Could anybody do a look up in Nova Scotia please?
I'm looking for the 1865 birth of John Henry Beauchamp Bagenal, father Henry Sedley Rice Bagenal.
Any help on either gratefully accepted.
Best wishes
Pat
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Sorry my subs don't cover this part of Anx.
There is a Beauchamp Bagenal who sailed to Liverpool and also Australia from Canada.
Has to be related ??
Tinam
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Nova Scotia Vital records are here but can't see any listings for 'Bagenal'-
https://novascotiagenealogy.com/
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Father? mentioned here in 1870-
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/23643/pages/3774/page.pdf
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/24285/pages/198/page.pdf
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Thank you for all your replies - I think all the Beauchamp Bagenals must be related, but perhaps I have been a bit assumptive that John Henry B B was born in Nova Scotia - I can only find "Canada" on censuses (except one that states America). His mother, Louisa Catherine Creighton was born in Halifax, NS, and again, I assume she married there.
I was aware of the Gazette entry, in fact, its where I found John Henry B B's father's full name.
I've tried googling, as the Bagenals are a far flung family, Ireland, Canada, Uk etc, but without precise success.
One point, John Henry had 2 elder brothers, John J Doyle Bagenal born 1856, Halifax, NS and Francis H Walsh Bagenal born 1859 same place.
any further suggestions gratefully accepted....
Best wishes
Pat
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Was Henry Sedley Rice Bagenal in the military and with one of the battalions garrisoned at Halifax?
I think I found this family in 1861 Census of England
In Lewisham, Lee
Henry Sedley Bagenal age 40
Louisa Catherine Bagenal age 28
John ... Bagenal age 5
Francis Bagenal age 2
James J. B. Bagenal age 0
If he was in the military would the marriage and births be at the National Archives or under the GRO overseas births and marriages.
Any records for the time period you are looking will be haphazard at best as it wasn't compulsory to register births or marriages. Some marriage bonds have survived but not many. Creighton is definitely a name that would be associated with Halifax but I couldn't find anything on Louisa Catherine. I would think they may have married circa 1854/55 if the first son was born in 1855/56.
Alternate spellings could be Bagnel, Bagnell, Bignell, Begnell.
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Hi, and thank you for that,
Henry Sedley Rice Bagenal was born in Dunkerque, France in 1821, and it is entirely possible that he was in the army.
I will look up in the National Archives as suggested.
Best wishes
Pat
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Hi Pat
Plenty of life left in the old boy :)
1881 which you will have, Henry bn France 52 has a 26yr old wife and a 3yr old son and a 11mnths old daughter.
I wish I had people like this in my tree..
tinam
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Possibly:
June 10, 1871, Morning Post (London)
On the 1st inst, at Ordnance House, Fort George, the wife of H. S. Bagenal, Esq, Control Staff, of a son.
http://www.ourroots.ca has a reference to him being in New Brunswick in the mid 1860s.
http://archives.gnb.ca/APPS/NewspaperVitalStats/Search.aspx?culture=en-CA
- a search here has some newspaper references, to the death of Henry Sedly Bagenal's wife "Eliza", aged 29, in 1874, and also the death in 1873 of a son, Edmund William Beaucamp Bagenal.
Under different spellings, it seems that Henry Sedley BAGENALL married Eliza M. J. daughter of John Doherty in 1863.
There is a 1864 newspaper record for the birth of a son to H.S. BAGNALL - perhaps this is your John?
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Thank you so much!
This was more than I'd ever hoped for, and so interesting as well.
If anybody can shed light on what happened to the elder brothers, John J Doyle Bagenal, b 1856, and Francis H Walsh Bagenal b 1859 - both Canada, possibly Halifax, I would be very grateful.
Best wishes
Pat
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https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1971-25490-436-20?cc=1925428&wc=M9HJ-FB9:772593292
Nova Scotia, Church Records, 1720-2001HalifaxHalifaxCatholic St Mary's Basilica
Jan 10, 1854 Henry Sedley Joseph Maria Bagenall to Louisa Mary Creighton
Do you know which regiment he was attached to in Halifax?
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Great find on the marriage! Welcome to rootschat marwiller
First commissioned rank: Oct 1 1840...Not seen any info as to his actual regiment....
The 1865/66 directory in NewBrunswick had him already working the military store
Didn't find anything positive on the brothers, PatR but just jotted down the odd thing in order from the earlier finds by rootschatters...and other bits as they came up...I imagine you have it all by now, though...
1854 married Louisa Mary ( Catherine) Creighton N.S. Canada
c. 1856, John J. Doyle Bagenal b 1859 Francis H Walsh Bagenal James J.B.Bagenal 1861
1863 New Brunswick - Captain Henry Sedley Bagnal ( of the Military Staff,) married Eliza Maria Jessey Doherty (O'Doherty)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/correction/8819368 also in channel bmd as "Eliza Josephine Doherty"
? c.1864/1865 John Henry Beauchamp Bagenal d.1897 Mile End Old Town, London, England
1869 African Commissarian Dept.
Superintendant of stores ( deputy commissary) stationed at Devonpt. GunWharf Feb. 12 1870
1871- Superintendant of stores in Guernsey
1871 birth of Edmund William Beaucamp bengal https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGBM-K6T
1872/73 - Devonpt. GunWharf
1873 death of son Edmund William Beaucamp Bagenal
1874 death of Eliza
1874/1875 retired http://books.google.ca/books?id=VuERAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA269
1877- married Anna Frost 187 1880 Ada Mary George Sedley 1878
There is a Clara Gertrude Bagenal 1882 Camberwell, the other surnames appear as Bagnall/Bagnell etc.
Likely relatives 1817 87th Reg of foot ....ensign Robert Sedley Bagenall, Lt. John Doyle Bagenall
also a Lt. William Cathcart Bagnall ( born Dublin, also served in Canada) listed 66th Reg of Foot 1813-1817
books.google.ca/books?id=dgUcAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA590&lpg=PA590&dq=Bagenall
1829 Ceylonrifle Regt 29th Foot -John Doyle Bagenall http://books.google.ca/books?id=OEDzAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA772
( a William and a George & Edmund also in Ceylon military http://ceylondatabase.net/military.html)
Note HSR's loss of a son Endmund Wm
His arm was amputated after battle in 1809- http://archive.org/stream/recordofeightyse00canniala/recordofeightyse00canniala_djvu.txt
Robert Sedley, some children
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bfather_givenname%3A%22robert%20sedley%22%20%2Bfather_surname%3ABagenall~
also:http://www.napoleon-series.org/research/biographies/GreatBritain/Challis/Images1-50/027.pdf
another spelling if French origins could also be Baguenault
Interesting if your ancestry is Irish http://catholicheritage.blogspot.ca/2011/04/mass-for-popes-birthday_16.html
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Hi, I am checking out my Great Grandma Letitia Anne I Balfe Bagenal and I believe John Henry was her father. He had two daughters, Letty and Ada Catherine, who married a Pentney. Do you have any details about John Henry and his wife, Letitia Fletcher. For example how he died?
My best, Maria ::)
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I know it is a long time after you posted but I have the answer to this question :-)
You may have found it already on ancestry.
But these Bagenalls were brought up in Sri Lanka (then Ceylon).
The two brother were lost at sea with Frances Creighton between Nova Scotia and England.
I am related to their sister Cornelia.
If you look on ancestry I have put all the info there.
Their father was John Doyle Bagenall born in Mullingar, Ireland in 1791. He lost an arm in Spain the Peninsular wars and married a woman from the Basque country Florentina Lecuana. I have recently found all her baptism information and ancestry. I am still searching for John's ancestry.
Both these brothers were born in France before they left for Ceylon.
Sadly both Florentina and John (the parents) died relatively young about 10 years after they arrived in Ceylon. They left about 10 children as orphans there. One of them Cornelia was my x3 great grandmother. She married a Templer and the family stayed in Ceylon for a further 3 generations. My grandfather came to england when he was 13 when his father died unexpectedly.
The detailed information is from the transcript of the grave of John Doyle Bagenall in Sri Lanka.
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Revising ...
the wording in the grave marker must be a little jumbled, as John Doyle Bagenall appears to be one of the brothers, not the father of them all? The use of brother/son/brother/son is certainly confusing as well!
O.k. I see now, that they were married September 30, 1814...So she was very young & having babies for 2 decades. Yes, I remember one of my father's uncles being younger than a nephew.
a brother, perhaps?
Marriage Register of St Paul's Church, Pettah, Colombo (Ceylon) Sri Lanka from 1816
(Marriages St Paul’s Church Pettah Colombo)
George Henry [Bagnell] and Elizabeth Jones
It appears J.D. & Florentina were in London for a bit...Did this son not survive either, then???
FHS entry: John Doyle Bagenall Chr: 4 May 1830 St Martin in the Fields, Westminster, London, Eng. Father John Doyle Bagenall Mother Florentena
There is also the 1834 Baptism St Paul’s Church Kandy Ceylon Sri Lanka of Wilson Thomas son of John Doyle Bagnall Esq Captain HM Ceylon Rifles and Florentina his wife ...
and his death reported (June?) 1836 At Colombo on the 2nd instant, Wilson Thomas, youngest son of Captain J D Bagenall, Ceylon Rifles, aged 2 years and 5 months. https://www.kabristan.org.uk/
adding birth 1834: Wed 22 Jan: B: On the 7th instant, at Nuwera Ellia, the Lady of Captain J D Bagenall, Ceylon Rifles, of a son.
revised: Says youngest George was about 20 when he died...So he was born c. 1837 so she died from complications of childbirth. Tragic family story. What a tough life for Florentina.
.https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/211693977/george-bagenall
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Ahh thanks.
Yes I don't have Wilson. Thanks.
I did find out today though that that the name "Doyle" was probably because John was named after Sir John Doyle who was long time MP for Mullingar and set up the 87th Regiment not long after John Doyle senior was born in 1791. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/87th_(Royal_Irish_Fusiliers)_Regiment_of_Foot
I also found out that he had a younger brother who was in the same regiment and was wounded at Nivelle. He gained a medal for gallentary. He survived and retired to England (London).
He was called Robert Sedley Bagenall. He named one of his children Florentina.
Wondering if the father was also in the army.
Also some of John Bagenall seniors grandchildren have the name Beauchamp - Beauchamp Bagenall was also an Irish MP of some infamy. But again this might be a reference rather than a direct relation.
So no luck on John and Roberts Father yet.
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And as for your point about a tough life - yes very!
Florentina lost a child the year after she lost her husband. And then died herself.
John Doyle Bagenall senior was 16 when he joined up and lost his arm at 18. Looking at my 16 year old son it really makes one think!
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We'd mentioned before that these might be related...could be brothers or cousins.
Likely relatives 1817 87th Reg of foot ....ensign Robert Sedley Bagenall, Lt. John Doyle Bagenall also a Lt. William Cathcart Bagnall ( born Dublin, also served in Canada) listed 66th Reg of Foot 1813-1817 books.google.ca/books?id=dgUcAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA590&lpg=PA590&dq=Bagenall
also the ceylon marriage I'd just posted.
George Henry [Bagnell] and Elizabeth Jones
Forgive me for not seeing your post right away, as I was revising & adding to my post rather than making several more.
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Would not be surprised if there were more only daughters from other families, whose sons may have chosen to take the mother's surname in order to secure property as in this incomplete family history.
https://landedfamilies.blogspot.com/2017/10/309-bagenal-of-dunleckney-manor-and.html
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Yes I have looked down the available trees to see if there are any obvious places where in laws changed their name. As you imply this was a line with few male heirs...
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Had a breakthrough in moving up this line last night.
Attached to "John Doyle Bagenall (senior)" 's pension records is a whole host of information and certificates.
This includes a french hand written marriage certificate with John Doyle Bagenall's father as given as Jonathan Bagnall and his mother as Catherine Ridge. Looking at Catherine a number of things confirm this including a description of her sons health on a pension she we given by the UK government and also that she has the name Sedley in her line. John's brother is called Robert Sedley - it is quite easy to track her line as her father was King's Consul.
So feeling quite pleased. Slightly harder to trace on the Bagnall side. This could be the Jonathan Whose father is John Bagley ABT 1748 • Little Kiltobber, Rahew, Co. Meath, Ireland - but I am still looking for more information to confirm that.
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We simply must get you to crop your image edges as you can see they take up a great deal of width so are hard to navigate!!!
That is a great find, congrats LaLisa!!! Funny, as I was looking at the Sedley bunch but did not find the connection, as I was thinking John could be the father's name but was not using Jon* but John*. Also was stuck on that extra e in Bagenal, hoping it was used by family
The national archives has this bit of information on passing around of manorial land...
14 May 1741 ACC/0276/407
Title: Copy of court roll: manor of Colham. Admission of Anna Mole and Catherine Sumner Sedley as daughters and heirs of John Weeden, deceased.
Description:
Premises: 2 acres in Hyde Field and 5 acres in Cowley Field.
1 Aug 1759 ACC/0809/MSS/169 Surrender by John Ridge and Catherine his wife (formerly Catherine Sumner Sedley) of Oat Close and Grafton Mead Close to the use of the said John Ridge.
31 Aug. 1769 ACC/0809/MSS/75
Admission of Thomas Mole of Denham, Bucks to a moiety of 2 closes containing nine acres, one known as Oat Close, the other as Grafton Mead Close.
31 Jan 1774 ACC/0809/MSS/385 Conditional Surrender
1. John Ridge
2. John Dawson of Uxbridge, esq. Moiety of closes called Oat Close and Grafton Mead.
To secure £100 and Interest to be paid on 31 Jan. 1775
Warrant of satisfaction from J. Dawson attached.
12 Nov. 1779 ACC/0809/MSS/82 Admission of "John Somner Sedley" under the will of Thomas Mole to a moiety of Oat Close and Grafton Mead Close.
12 Nov 1779 ACC/0809/MSS/083 Admission of "Michael Ridge", trustee under the will of "John Ridge" to a moiety of Oat Close and Grafton Mead Close containing nine acres.
5 Feb 1796 ACC/0809/MSS/450 Authority to Acknowledge Satisfaction
1. Wm. Burke of Beaconsfield, Bucks., esq.
2. John Ridge, the son of "Jn. Ridge' of St. Margarets, Westminster, deceased For £600 and Interest.
29 Feb 1796 ACC/0809/MSS/449 Warrant of Satisfaction
1. Jonathan Bagnal of Anne Street, Dublin, gent. and Catherine his wife
2. John Ridge of St. Margarets, Westminster, esq., deceased
For £800 charged by 2. on his copyhold premises as a portion for his eldest daughter.
11 April 1796 ACC/0809/MSS/170
Conditional Surrender by William Ridge and Ellis his wife given to James Melbourne of a moiety of 2 closes of meadow land, Oat Close and Grafton Mead Close containing nine acres at the back of White Horse Inn. As security for an annuity of £20 to be paid to the 2 sons of James Melbourne.
9 Mar 1797ACC/0809/MSS/171 Surrender by John William Ridge and Ellis his
wife to the use of James Melbourne of a moietyof 2 closes, called Oat Close and Grafton Mead Close at the back of the White Horse Inn.
adding: there's an Oat Close in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire ?
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/9fd56a04-3d64-4a69-9336-b73979967cf5
Cowley: Manor https://search.lma.gov.uk/LMA_DOC/ACC_0809.PDF
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Thanks for the info.
I am pretty sure I found Jonathan Bagenall and Catherine Ridge's 3rd son. He is Edmund Burke Bagenall b 1792. Catherine Ridge is a witness at his wedding in 1819 to Isabella Sherriff
Wierdly he has two weddings recorded one in 1817 and one in 1823 to the same woman. They are by bans and by licence.
The politician Edmund Burke was a friend of the family and gave Catherine Ridge a pension of £100 a year. So another reason why this is probably the third son.
He also predeceased his mother which is fits in with the parliamentary record I posted earlier.
I found an obituary for Edmund in a paper saying he was a journalist in London. He died in 1836.
I also found the birth certificate of another son for John Doyle Bagenall senior and Florentina b 1920 in Dunkerque - John Symonds Burke Bagenall. He may have died young because I find no later reference to him in the family papers or records in Ceylon. But helps make a slightly stronger case that Edmund Burke Bagenall is the third brother.
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This may be of interest...also in the archives: John Doyle's brother:
The correspondence of the 5th Duke of Richmond Bagenall, Ensign Robert S.: 16 letters, 1832-1857
"Edmund Burke is remembered for his support for Catholic emancipation, the impeachment of Warren Hastings from the East India Company, and his staunch opposition to the French Revolution!"
Father as: Jean Dayle Bagenall
Mother: Florentine Longine Therese Sebastienne Josephine Lecuana
Isabelle Bagenall 22 February 1819 Dunkirk, Nord, France
Henri Sedley Bagenall 26 Feb 1821 Dunkerque, Nord, France
Florentine Simmone Bagenall 22 April 1823 Dunkirk, Nord, France
"April 6th 1841 at Colombo, W. H. Underwood, Esq., 95th Regiment, to Flora
third daughter of the late Capt. J. D. Bagenall, Ceylon Rifle Regiment."
Cornille Thérèse Bagenall 30 April 1825 Dunkirk, Nord, France
Jean Edmond Burke Bagenall 2 October 1827 Dunkirk, Nord, France
Edmund Bagenall Birth Date 1828 Birthplace Dunkirk Age 20
Draft Registration Event Date 12 Feb 1847 United Kingdom
FHS has the above as births & I see "birth certificate" on the images, but can't read the whole thing
ie: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C3WP-VZTL?cc=3216848
John Doyle Bagenall Chr:4 May 1830 St Martin in the Fields, Westminster, London, Eng
d.1834 Sat 7 Jun: D: At Fort Macdonald, on the 30th ultimo, aged four years and five months, John Doyle, fourth son of Captain Bagenall, Ceylon Rifles.
Wilson Thomas Bagenall Birth 1834 Lanka, Central, Sri Lanka
1837 Wed 22 Jan : B: On the 7th instant, at Nuwera Ellia, the Lady of Captain J D Bagenall, Ceylon Rifles, of a son. BAGENALL George- chr: Dutch Church Galle South Ceylon Sri Lanka
But then I see this at the archives https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C17362027
Perhaps there is more in that file as well?
added: Just checked the front of the Dunkirk register and it does say "births!" https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C3WP-VNNY?i=2&cc=3216848
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Wow the National Archives document is gold dust! Thank you so much. And freely available for anyone to look at - it is folio number 231 page 375/
It is a statement of service.
It tells us the battles he fought in e.g. Battle of Victoria (he states he served under Wellington at the Siege of San Sebastian) and also what he did at the end of the war. He was an adjudant in Fuentearrabbia which is right by where Florentina was brought up in Oyarzun. I do wonder if they ran away together because she was just 17 when they married in Bordeaux.
It also describes his wounds which were a gun shot through the body and arm. I had imagined he had lost his arm to a sword for some reason!.
I would love to go and read those letters from Robert Sedley Bagenall too. Maybe one day I will make a trip to Sussex. But for now I am very happy - thanks
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And two more