RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Maggie. on Saturday 07 January 12 13:47 GMT (UK)
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A few weeks ago BarbaraH started a very interesting thread on the discovery of an old cottage in Barley that had received a lot of media coverage, see here for Barbara's thread:-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0jeb/
This morning a group from our Local History Group went to view the site together with the archaeologist who has been involved in the dig. It was interesting to hear his views and I have taken quite a few photographs, but I don't want to hijack Barbara's thread, hence this new one.
The cottage, although known about, had been almost completely covered in turf, but has now been thoroughly excavated, documented and photographed. It was re-discovered prior to proposed construction works on the nearby reservoir and as the cottage lies in the path of what will shortly become an improved anti-flooding run-off area it is about to be demolished and the area levelled and grassed. United Utilities are anxious that the demolition work be completed before Good Friday so as to avoid the real threat of it becoming some sort of occultist's shrine to the Pendle Witches.
Absolutely nothing that we heard this morning supports the idea that it could have been a witches hideout.
This first photo is of the back of the house and gives an idea of it's position.
Maggie
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This is a Victorian range set inside what was once an inglenook fireplace. The 2nd pic. shows a chamfered stone, which was part of the inglenook.
A lot of the stones and window mullions regrettably have been pilfered off the site and I suppose now they are being incorporated into the renovations of various old barns and houses nearby ::)
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The house is 17th century and when built would have been substantial and quite prosperous. Various alterations have been done over the centuries - new doorways made etc; and there is evidence that the property fell into decline during the 19th century, most probably due to the change from spinning and weaving in the home to a factory based system and a movement away from the countryside into the industrial towns.
It is impossible to identify the house from census records as there are many farms dotted around the area all of which are referred to as 'Overhouses'.
More pics to follow later ...... if of interest.
Maggie
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Please do ! So is there any evidence it was used for spinning/weaving ? If apparently 'quite prosperous' might it have been owned by the owner of a mill ?
And what are 'overhouses' ??
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More likely a yeoman farmer, Lydart, and would pre-date the mills. Spinning would be done by Mum and her small children whilst Dad did the weaving, perhaps in the upstairs rooms as it had an upper storey. No direct evidence for this, in fact no objects relating to the 17th century have been found. The only stuff found is Victorian bits of pot and bottles, also some more recent items of footwear. There could be midden heaps around that would contain stuff but these have not been found.
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I like excavating middens ! And medieval cess-pits are an archaeologists dream come true !
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Yes, more photos please!!!
I've not heard of an 'Overhouse' either. Is it one which has the animals living downstairs and the humans upstairs? ;)
Still, I think it's sad to see these 'ruins' demolished. :( I'd love to excavate a midden ... or anything really ...
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I've just been called away ;D ;D
Back soon with photos and I'll answer you then Ruskie ;) ;)
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Thanks Maggie. No hurry, I'm signing off soon. ;)
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Yes, more photos please!!!
I've not heard of an 'Overhouse' either. Is it one which has the animals living downstairs and the humans upstairs? ;)
Still, I think it's sad to see these 'ruins' demolished. :( I'd love to excavate a midden ... or anything really ...
Animals living downstairs ..... now there's a thought. I can just see them all sleeping peacefully around the inglenook fireplace ;D
Demolition is sad - had any interesting artifacts been discovered then steps would have been taken to preserve it but as it is, at least it has been well documented. You would not believe it but apparently there was a very interesting stone trough in the kitchen area that was unique. It was immediately and fortunately photographed after discovery but stolen the next day.
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Two more .................
These show splendid worked door jambs complete with mason's marks. Not exactly what your average 17th century witch was used to ::)
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Thought I had better post one with Pendle Hill on it ;)
And do stop me if I'm getting boring ...... but I haven't shown you the bread ovens yet.
Maggie
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"Over Houses" is just the name for the group of houses on the current map and earlier ones.
In some censuses they get written in the left column as "Upper Houses".
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Keep going Maggie ...
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I am really enjoying these photos. Keep `em coming Maggie :)
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There are 4 rooms, obviously 'upstairs' is no longer there - in the room at the back of the inglenook room there are 2 bread ovens. This is one of them.
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And in the adjacent corner is the other, complete with loaf of bread. I think that had been placed there for the benefit of recent visiting schoolchildren. There is some speculation as to whether the residents may have at one time operated as a small bakery.
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That's supper for the Pendle witches !! :D
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Those stones forming the door jambs look very substantial and I was wondering if they were recycled from somewhere else during the original build, as they seem out of proportion to the size of the building. Were there any dissolved monasteries or other ecclesiastical buildings in the area?
I do envy you your proximity to this place, Maggie; must be really fascinating.
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You are absolutely correct, GS in that many of the stone features seem out of place in the cottage and also much of the exterior walling looked to be of a mixture of stone.
There are no records of a monastery particularly nearby, the nearest being at Whalley some 10 miles away and this was indeed demolished by Henry VIII for the part its abbot played in The Pilgrimage of Grace. There are various bits of stained glass visible in the windows of certainly one farmhouse I know and the suggestion is that this glass is from Whalley Abbey. Also there is a round stone water trough in a field nearby that looks the correct shape for a font, which raises the question of where it came from.
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You are absolutely correct, GS in that many of the stone features seem out of place in the cottage and also much of the exterior walling looks to be of a mixture of stone.
There are no records of a monastery being particularly close, the nearest being at Whalley some 10 miles away and this was indeed demolished by Henry VIII for the part its abbot played in The Pilgrimage of Grace. There are various bits of stained glass visible in the windows of certainly one farmhouse I know and the suggestion is that this glass is from Whalley Abbey. Also there is a round stone water trough in a field nearby that looks the correct shape for a font, which raises the question of where it came from.
However the 'experts' do say that the style of the stonework is 17th century.
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Just place marking this interesting thread!
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Remember the mummified cat of the sensational media reporting? This photo is of where the cat was discovered. It was in a bricked up doorway between 2 rooms and had been purposefully positioned at shoulder height. It was not mummified, it was a complete skeleton and our expert could offer no explanation as to why it had been put there, however it was a Victorian cat.
It seems the doorway had been blocked up because the back room had fallen into ruin so the occupants of the time were probably not using the room.
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There seems to be a substantial amount of dressed stone in the building, which in our area at any rate would be unusual for a modest cottage, and which would suggest re-use. Presumably the landowner will be selling the stone once the cottage has been demolished; I imagine it would be worth a lot of money. Certainly round here the cost of building stone (even the undressed variety) is fairly high.
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GS - the cottage is owed by United Utilities - it lies between 2 reservoirs. A lot of the stone ie. mullions from what apparently were large windows at the front of the property, have been pilfered since it was unearthed. Apparently United Utilities intend to reuse a lot of the stone in retaining walls and the rest will be contoured into the slope of the land and buried.
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This pic shows the lie of the surrounding land. The wall on the skyline is the upper reservoir wall and the grassed area to the left of where the yellow jacketed man is standing is the run-off area should the reservoir overflow. Without extra construction works it is felt that should there be a serious flood, the flood water would go in the opposite direction and flood the village. Serious flooding of this magnitude has happened in the past - the last time in 1967.
Hence the cottage has to go :'(
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You are absolutely correct, GS in that many of the stone features seem out of place in the cottage and also much of the exterior walling looked to be of a mixture of stone.
There are no records of a monastery particularly nearby, the nearest being at Whalley some 10 miles away and this was indeed demolished by Henry VIII for the part it's abbot played in The Pilgrimage of Grace. There are various bits of stained glass visible in the windows of certainly one farmhouse I know and the suggestion is that this glass is from Whalley Abbey. Also there is a round stone water trough in a field nearby that looks the correct shape for a font, which raises the question of where it came from.
Do you have a photo of the round stone water trough in the nearby field?
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Good point, BB: we'll have to send Maggie off with camera ;D
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It's a pity that it cant be taken down and rebuilt elsewhere, a bit like they did with the buildings now at the Weald and Downland Museum in Sussex.
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I must be a bit dim,but I can't see the yellow jacketed man,have you hidden him Maggie? ;D
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If they have nicked the stone trough be careful about letting them know about the maybe font
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What an interesting thread ...... Mr KHP and I watch programs like this ..... keep the photos coming.
Cheers
KHP
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I must be a bit dim,but I can't see the yellow jacketed man,have you hidden him Maggie? ;D
He is there Janette, blends with the grass to the right of the photo, above the walls.
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I must be a bit dim,but I can't see the yellow jacketed man,have you hidden him Maggie? ;D
He is there Janette, blends with the grass to the right of the photo, above the walls.
Thanks KHP ;D ;D
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If they have nicked the stone trough be careful about letting them know about the maybe font
If it really is a font it could be ancient and worthy of retrieval by a local museum. Some of the simple stone fonts are over 1000 years old.
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You are absolutely correct, GS in that many of the stone features seem out of place in the cottage and also much of the exterior walling looked to be of a mixture of stone.
There are no records of a monastery particularly nearby, the nearest being at Whalley some 10 miles away and this was indeed demolished by Henry VIII for the part it's abbot played in The Pilgrimage of Grace. There are various bits of stained glass visible in the windows of certainly one farmhouse I know and the suggestion is that this glass is from Whalley Abbey. Also there is a round stone water trough in a field nearby that looks the correct shape for a font, which raises the question of where it came from.
Do you have a photo of the round stone water trough in the nearby field?
Yes - but I'll have to trot off and find it.
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If they have nicked the stone trough be careful about letting them know about the maybe font
They would struggle to heave it out of the ground YT..... but then again these pilferers are cunning ;D
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What an interesting thread ...... Mr KHP and I watch programs like this ..... keep the photos coming.
Cheers
KHP
Will do KHP - just as long as I'm not being boring ;D
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One 'perhaps-maybe' font, with glove and someone's foot for scale (Jan put your glasses on ;D)
A similar one turned up a few years ago apparently and it now resides in the village church - not as a working font, more as an interesting artifact.
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You're not being boring Maggie - we are hanging on your every word, and desperate for more photos! I think if distance permitted, we would all be on your doorstep in the morning, asking for a tour!
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That does look very much like the font in Llywel Church (where Moogle was baptised) which has been dated to about 1000 years old.
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Would have to be quite a reasonable sized church for such a substantial font wouldn't it?? I mean, - it isn't pint sized is it!!
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I wonder if the size/weight of it might suggest that it is not far from its original location.....
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Not boring at all Maggie ..... to be taken on a journey through your eyes from our armchairs is beyond words.
Cheers
KHP
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That certainly needs saving.
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I wonder if the size/weight of it might suggest that it is not far from its original location.....
Maybe the witches magicked it there.. ;D
Wonderful photos Maggie, thanks for posting them!
:) Barbara
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Well here you go then - whilst tracking down the pic of the maybe-font I found one of the farmhouse with a bit of glass possibly salvaged from Whalley Abbey after the henchmen of Henry had demolished it. You'll have to look closely - bottom right hand window top of outer mullions.
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One 'perhaps-maybe' font, with glove and someone's foot for scale (Jan put your glasses on ;D)A similar one turned up a few years ago apparently and it now resides in the village church - not as a working font, more as an interesting artifact.
Thanks Maggie :P
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There again, Maggie, that is a very handsome little building for a farmhouse. Was the area particularly prosperous in the 16th/17th centuries? People living at subsistence level generally just threw together hovels to live in, but that certainly isn't a hovel!
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Just bookmarking - thankyou for this fascinating journery
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Just noticed, it seems to have a date stone over its door - can't quite read it though. 15?2 is it?
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I would think a local museum would be very interested in that "maybe" font. And moving large objects is reasonably easy if you know what your doing,,and,, the reward is large enough.
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It's a pity that it cant be taken down and rebuilt elsewhere, a bit like they did with the buildings now at the Weald and Downland Museum in Sussex.
That would be a good idea. Wish I lived nearer I would love to go there before its destroyed forever.
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Just noticed, it seems to have a date stone over its door - can't quite read it though. 15?2 is it?
I think it says 1532
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Just noticed, it seems to have a date stone over its door - can't quite read it though. 15?2 is it?
I think it says 1532
Certainly looks like that, either that or 1582.
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Here is a small pic I've found showing an ancient font, which looks similar to the one in the field.
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I've just seen the picture of the font in the field, I hope it can be saved.
Wonderful stuff, better than time team.
Thanks for sharing your photos with us.
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There again, Maggie, that is a very handsome little building for a farmhouse. Was the area particularly prosperous in the 16th/17th centuries? People living at subsistence level generally just threw together hovels to live in, but that certainly isn't a hovel!
Yes - it's a substantial farmhouse and one of several in the valley. They belonged to the up and coming yeoman farmers of the 16th C.
Initially - and I hope I get this correct as I'm not consulting notes, the Forest of Pendle, after the Norman conquest, was owned by the King for hunting purposes. Later the land was granted to the De Lacy earldom and when it ceased to be used for hunting purposes the forest was then given over to tennant farmers. Prior to this time, because it was hunting territory, there were few people living here, the population generally was principally employed in farming, stock management and the vaccary system predominated.
By the 16thC, due to the decimation of the population through plague and Henry VIII's policies, an opportunity was given for these tennant farmers to acquire more land, their sole aim was to improve their social standing and become minor gentry. Around this time many of the finest farmhouses were built.
This is an over-simplification of a complex subject and it's written in a rush .... so I hope it's a fairly accurate account
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Just noticed, it seems to have a date stone over its door - can't quite read it though. 15?2 is it?
I think it says 1532
Certainly looks like that, either that or 1582.
I think it's 1532 but I would need to double-check that.
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Forest of Pendle is a good way up the country for me to be doing a day trip that's a shame.
Thanks for all the information Maggie very interesting indeed.
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I would think a local museum would be very interested in that "maybe" font. And moving large objects is reasonably easy if you know what your doing,,and,, the reward is large enough.
Although our history group has only recently been to see it this 'font' has resided in a field as a cattle water feeder for decades. It is well off the beaten track and on private land.
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Forest of Pendle is a good way up the country for me to be doing a day trip that's a shame.
Thanks for all the information Maggie very interesting indeed.
Pendle Forest in the middle ages was apparently Wild West country where Southerners travelled at their peril ;D ;D
But anyone who wants to make the trip, just let me know.
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Southerners travelled at their peril
:o :o :o :o What happened to them?
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They fell into a font and were never seen again, Jan ;D ;D ;D
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It is interesting the impact the plague had on the social structure of the country, when suddenly people with agricultural skills were prized because there was no-one else left to till the land and get in a harvest each year. It hadn't occurred to me previously that this was why many yeomen farmers rose in the ranks in the 16th century. That pic of the farmhouse certainly indicates the residence of someone of social standing such as minor gentry.
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A lot of the families of those times who had influence in Pendle Forest still have descendants living here today. The same names crop up...... none of which is my own name I hasten to add ;D
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History sure is interesting specially when you can see the evidence of the changes all around you, and you can imagine the changes wrought by plagues and pestilence - and landlords and enclosures, mining and industry etc. Must be great to live with it on the doorstep so to speak.
One of the reasons I find Coast so interesting if the history and the changes in the towns around the coast.
Sorry diverging from the matter in hand and the thread - beg pardon
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Wiggy - despite the cold, wet, dismal, windy weather I love living here with history surrounding me. And when the sun DOES come out the countyside is stunning.
Bed calls, but one more thing. Going back to our Ruined Cottage, in post #10, page 2, bottom photo, if you look at the 2 door jambs the joints in each jamb do not correspond in depth. This would be unusual if the door jambs had been inserted in the original house as built as the builder would have matched each side, particulaly when using such fine stone. Would this therefore seem to support GS's idea that the jambs were brought from elsewhere and re-used?
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Well as GS says - they are very handsome pieces of stone aren't they - for a humble cottage!
Very interesting that's what.
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If I'd just won the lottery....and could fly......I'd have been on the next flight over, Maggie, for a personal tour! :D
It is impossible to identify the house from census records as there are many farms dotted around the area all of which are referred to as 'Overhouses'.
Maggie
What a pity.....just think of the fun Rootschatters would have had if it could have been identified. :-\
Dee :)
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Looking on the map, I see there is a village called Newchurch nearby. The name would imply that somewhere there is an old church. I've been googling around and find that there was a chapel of ease on this site in 1250, although a new chapel was dedicated in 1544. It says on the church's website that the fabric of the building dates in part from 1544, with later additions. How close is this site to the cottage, and also to where the 'font' was found? I was just thinking that if the original chapel was demolished, the bits they didn't need to recycle in the new chapel might well have found their way into other buildings locally and the discarded font might just have been carted off for use as a drinking trough.
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Sound thinking GS - you would make a most welcome addition to our small History Group ;D
Your information on the church of St Mary at Newchurch in Pendle is quite correct in that there was a chapel of ease on the site in 1250. Prior to this date it is not yet known whether or not there was an earlier place of religious activity at this spot. However there was apparently a well and quite possibly a religious building dedicated to St Chad at a different place a short distance from the present day church. As the crow flies this is a relatively short distance from the position of 'the font'. Our history group is keen to establish exactly where this shrine/chapel/well may have been located.
There were also 3 stone crosses in the parish of Newchurch, known as Upper, Lower and Churchyard Crosses and still remembered in local place names. None are standing today.
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I see that St Chad is patron saint of medicinal springs. Do you have springs in the area? If so, that might imply that there were quite a lot of pilgrims coming to the area in medieval times, seeking cures. And where there were pilgrims, there would be places available to offer them accommodation and sustenance. Also, if there were Romans in the area, they regarded springs as sacred and it is not unusual to find Roman offerings at the site of springs. You could have a little treasure trove there, just waiting to be discovered. Pity you are not within driving distance for meetings or I would happily join your group!
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Fascinating discussion. Like Dee I would be over there in a flash if I could. Please post more photos Maggie, if you are able to.
Bea-u-tiful farmhouse! It looks a bit unloved - do you know if there is anyone living there? If not, I am available for house-sitting, synpathetic restoration projects and general 'old house loving'.
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Here is another, Ruskie. As you can see I was wrong with the date as it quite clearly says '1592'. The house has recently been sold so I expect it will shortly become quite a des. res. it is in a beautiful spot and quite near 'the font'.
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I see that St Chad is patron saint of medicinal springs. Do you have springs in the area? If so, that might imply that there were quite a lot of pilgrims coming to the area in medieval times, seeking cures. And where there were pilgrims, there would be places available to offer them accommodation and sustenance. Also, if there were Romans in the area, they regarded springs as sacred and it is not unusual to find Roman offerings at the site of springs. You could have a little treasure trove there, just waiting to be discovered. Pity you are not within driving distance for meetings or I would happily join your group!
GS - the area is littered with springs ;D
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I'd give my eye teeth for a house with 1592 above the door, ::) I hope the new owners do the right thing by this house and don't 'overdo' the resoration. (always a danger)
Are there initials carved around the date? Presumably the original owners? Maybe the house was a wedding present from a wealthy man to his son/daughter? (now my imagination is running away with me ... ;))
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VERY good thinking and research GS !
A chapel of ease was often built some distance away from the mother church, for the use of the elderly and infirm, so they could get to it easily, assuming the main church was too far.
Certainly here in S. Wales, many churches (like our own Old Church ... no dedication known ... and called 'Old' since a chapel of ease was built in the village by the Victorians ... now a holiday let :-\ ) ... what was I saying ? Oh yes, many old Welsh churches are built on the site of an old Welsh 'clas' church ... a simple place, maybe mud and wattle, near a spring, which was a base for several monastics who went out from there to visit the sick, take communion at Easter for the poulation, and so on. Our Old Church is like this, most probably built on the site of a sixth century 'clas' church. We also have another site down by the Wye, where there was once a chapel to St Denys ... now long gone, but the field it was probably in, is known at St Denys field.
There's lots about 'clas' churches here .... http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=33743
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You're not being boring Maggie - we are hanging on your every word, and desperate for more photos! I think if distance permitted, we would all be on your doorstep in the morning, asking for a tour!
Couldn't agree more. Fascinating thread :D
Jan ;)
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I've just found this amongst my files, name of farm is asterisked. She is describing the famhouse in 1948 - I don't think it has changed much. It is a listed building so renovations will be controlled.
Edited from JESSICA LOFTHOUSE ‘Three Rivers’ published 1948
There is a path along the lower edge of the trees to a farm equal age, ***********.
It is pleasantly situated, too, standing firmly at the foot of the hill, not far from the dwindling Sabden Brook, among good meadows and pastures. It is well within the limits of the old Pendle Forest, and seeing the date, 1592, over the door we can imagine other callers in the wilder days, neighbours with wonderful and terrifying tales to tell. Very few of the old houses around were free from active victimization by the women who claimed powers of witchcraft. Bullhole, Greenhead, the Laund and Hoarstones are not far away—all connected with the witches.
*********** is the typical Elizabethan hall with its porch, where one can sit in cool shade, and wide windows with mar lights, the sun slanting through carved mullions on to the stone-flagged floor of the original house-place. One window has a few tiny diamond panes of old stained glass. From where Great oak beams and rafters span the room, shaped in days when the valley still had many woods. The original fireplace is there, though a Victorian grate and oven has been built into the open hearth.
In such a house families gathered (as Sir James Kay-Shuttle-worth described in his writings on superstition), grouped round such a fire, telling tales in keeping with wild nights, mid-winter storms. He penned these words:-
"The solitude of life in the moorland farmhouses does not foster the influence of superstitious traditions so much as the wild stormy climate which holds its blustering reign through six months of every year in this region of morass and fog, dark clough and craggy chasm. Night shuts in early. . . . The great sycamores stagger in the blast which rushes from the distant sea. The wind moans through the night like a troubled spirit, shakes the house as though it demanded admittance for the storm, and rushes down the huge chimney (built two centuries ago for the log fires and large hot heap of wood ashes), driving down a cloud of smoke and soot as though by some wicked cantrip the witches careering in the storm would scatter the embers and fire the building."
The Sabden Valley has changed somewhat since Sir James wrote this, and liberal education and social intercourse ", the radio and local 'bus services have all helped the Pendle Forest folk to throw off the thraldom of superstition ". Many old farms stand derelict on the higher slopes, but in the dale are good meadows, and we saw them lit up by the sun and shining after rain.
There is nothing strange about *********** to-day. There are three small children, as bonny as any the house ever bred, whose voices and running steps sound through the house continually, and cheerful washing-day and baking-day bustle comes from the kitchen.
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VERY good thinking and research GS !
Agreed - as I have said, sound thinking.
There are quite a few of our churches that started as a chapel of ease and in the case of the one at Newchurch, the mother church was at Whalley, a difficult and quite lengthy journey to undertake.
Lydart - the Britich History online site you give a link for is very useful - I use it a lot. To find Newchurch you have to input 'Goldshaw Booth'
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0jgj/
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A quick thank you for your encouraging words ...... I did wonder when I initially posted the pics how relevant it might be to family history but I think the chat about social history that is evolving is proving to be VERY relevant and it's painting a fascinating picture of the times.
I'm surrounded by files, pictures, books and CDs - and enjoying it all :)
Maggie
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Just wanted to say - absolutely fascinating reading. We actually live nearish and walked near the village over christmas but would have loved to see it all.
regards
Maria
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I think Rootschat is for family AS WELL as local history, surely ??
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Not trying to draw any interest away from the OP, which is extremely fascinating..., but early last year I was researching the history of scaffolding… a groan and mumbles of ‘a sad gitt’ do I hear. Steel scaffolding only came about in the 1920s, and before that it was all wooden.
Can you imagine the forest of trees felled to erect a forest of wooden scaffold poles on a building such as Salisbury cathedral, which incidentally is reputed to have been built in 20 years… unlike Ely cathedral taking a reported 200 years? Much of this time is said to be as a result of a lack of scaffold, and trees were being imported from Norway. I had no previous idea there were any history buffs lurking in the corners of RC.
I came here from the BBC history hub when it became apparent it was sinking due to cost cutting… I also contribute to three other history sites… if anyone has any info ref early scaffolding techniques or brick making… I’d be really grateful if you could pass some on to me. It’s not for publication, more for personal use.
I’m sorry to distract, and I am following this thread with interest.
Btw… have you discovered what an ‘overhouse’ is yet, I’m really eager to know.
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Hi Maggie I've dropped in today to read the messages since I was last in yesterday, as others have said its been lovely to read and I hope you keep us up to date with whatever happens to the lovely derelict cottage.
Many thanks.
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Hi Bandick,
To try to answer the last bit first - Overhouses is just the name for a particular area within the parish. It's a sparsly populated village so there were no streets as such and I think in one census the area is known as Upperhouses. The cottage is located away from the centre of the village and slightly higher up a hillside. In the same way within the village there is a 'Narrowgates' and in the next village there is 'Nether Goldshaw' and 'Over Goldshaw'
About scaffolding and brick making I know nothing, but have a look at this site:-
http://www.oneguyfrombarlick.co.uk/default.asp
It holds a lot of interesting information and you can do a search to see if anyone has posted anything relevant. If that fails then just ask a question - I'm sure it will get answered as the site seems to have lots of knowledgeable engineers, steeplejacks, technical people and historians. Good luck.
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Hi Maggie I've dropped in today to read the messages since I was last in yesterday, as others have said its been lovely to read and I hope you keep us up to date with whatever happens to the lovely derelict cottage.
Many thanks.
It's been my pleasure and I will certainly keep you informed. As I said the poor cottage is to be flattened before Good Friday to stop it becoming a focus for ghoul hunters and whatever. This makes sense, sad though it is, as in the past such visitations have caused problems around here, particularly on 31st October. :o
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I'm afraid "Over houses" in this context has a mundane meaning - the ones up the hill.
Hebden Bridge has a more exciting type - "top and bottom" dwellings. I once considered buying a house there. A nice stone-built terrace, with living room and kitchen on the ground floor, 2 bedrooms and a bathroom upstairs, and two attic bedrooms. Downstairs was a cellar which occupied half the floor area. Accessed from the street lower down the hill was another dwelling with a single upstairs bedroom which was at the same level as that cellar. A special Act of Parliament later gave special rights to the occupants and so allowed mortgage providers to lend on these properties.
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I like Hebden Bridge - I like the the fact that despite it being full of steep hills it has never deterred folk from building. Mind you it must have been a grim place to live in the 19thC - not the trendy place it is now.
Newchurch has its share of '2 storey at front 3 at back' houses but I don't think there are any to match those Hebden ones.
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Maggie ... has anyone done a field name study in your area ? We've done one here in and around this village, and names do give you clues about past owners, uses, etc. of fields ... like, for e.g. if the fields near 'your' cottage were called something like Castle Field or Church Field or other descriptive name, then you have some useful info to work on. We have two little fields near here called Castle Edwards, and Little Castle Edwards ... and lo and behold, I found the remains of a motte there ! Without discovering the name, I'd never have thought to see what was there !
Near the school where I used to work was a field called Burnt Field ... and in a dry year, it was possible to see why ... two lines in the stubble marking the street, of a little hamlet that had been sacked by Owain Glyndwr and burned to the ground. A little archaeological digging proved it, with sherds of med. pottery turning up along the old and long disappeared street.
I'm very keen on field names !
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Hi Lydart,
When we were working on our grant funded study project 2 years ago the first thing we had to do was map regression, perusal of old documents etc. and it was interesting to see the names of the fields. Quite a few were called by the name of a family who farmed the relevant land and a few were descriptive. Tithe maps can be useful for this but unfortunately very few exist for Pendle Forest - as the region was Duchy of Lancaster owned there were no tithes.
You make a good point and it is always worth checking out the maps.
The fields surrounding my own house are called helpful things like 'The Long Meadow' , 'The Great Field' and 'The High Long Field'. Oh and the field that is permanently water-logged is called 'The Moss'. I don't think that whoever farmed this area had much imagination. :-\
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Descriptive though - I mean - at least you wouldn't go looking in the high long field for moss - would you? ;D You'd know what field you were talking about at least!
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Fabulous thread, thank you. Spent a good part of my childhood around this area - we had a caravan between Settle and Clitheroe with a panoramic view of Pendle. I used to peep through the curtains, looking for witches before I went to bed! :o
Have you thought that Sawley Abbey could be a source of old dressed stone? I'm nto sure exactly where the ruined cottage lies, but Sawley is within walking distamce of Downham and that side of Pendle - and the abbey is almost obliterated. Dissolved in 1536 so would fit in with a 16thc new building.
And as an aside, now I'm grown up and not scared...Do occultists really cause that much bother?
The thought occurred to me that the cat skeleton bricked into the doorway might have something to do with protection from boggarts - it's now 2012 and my family still go on about them even now. We have a 'fairy door' (a little plaque placed by the wall) so they can come in and out!
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We have names around this village like Peggy Jones Field, Duke's Piece, Saw Pit Field, Cae Melyn (yellow field), Cae Gwyn (white field), Long Barn Field, The Potash Field, Probyns Allotment ... and lots more ! It was a fascinating study to do !
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Not trying to draw any interest away from the OP, which is extremely fascinating..., but early last year I was researching the history of scaffolding… a groan and mumbles of ‘a sad gitt’ do I hear. Steel scaffolding only came about in the 1920s, and before that it was all wooden.
Can you imagine the forest of trees felled to erect a forest of wooden scaffold poles on a building such as Salisbury cathedral, which incidentally is reputed to have been built in 20 years… unlike Ely cathedral taking a reported 200 years? Much of this time is said to be as a result of a lack of scaffold, and trees were being imported from Norway. I had no previous idea there were any history buffs lurking in the corners of RC.
I came here from the BBC history hub when it became apparent it was sinking due to cost cutting… I also contribute to three other history sites… if anyone has any info ref early scaffolding techniques or brick making… I’d be really grateful if you could pass some on to me. It’s not for publication, more for personal use.
I’m sorry to distract, and I am following this thread with interest.
Btw… have you discovered what an ‘overhouse’ is yet, I’m really eager to know.
Wooden scaffolding was still in use in Germany in the 1980s and may still be. I have somewhere photos of wooden scaffolding that I took in Germany a few years ago, finding them may be a bit of a problem but they are here somewhere
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Hi Lal - Glad you are enjoying the thread. Sawley is a possibility although quite a distance away and along a very hilly route. Barley is on the other side of Pendle to Barley and separated by about 5 miles. Sawley and Whalley Abbeys were both dissolved around the same time I think. There must have been a lot of surplus stone around, a lot of it incorporated into houses as is still happening to the choicer pieces of stone within the ruin.
We all assumed that the cat was protection against evil as I was told that it was common practice to hole up not only cats, but charms, coins and shoes. However the archeaologist who took us round the ruin would not commit himself as to what the cat was doing there.
'Occultists' and their like are less of a problem these days as Pendle Hill is now barred to any traffic on Oct 31st but when we first moved here 30-odd years ago there was a lot of trouble. These days the villages are mainly full of small children in fancy dress, with their parents.
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I live quite near to the ruins of Tintern Abbey ... its interesting to look around the village and see how many houses are built of fine, dressed stone ... I wonder where they got it from ?? !!
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More pics ;D
I don't think we've had this one. It shows the coursed stonework on the front elevation. It is sandstone. Also there is evidence of a trackway in front of the house. The rather splendid internal door jams are visible in the room behind.
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Thats a good picture, Maggie. It gives an impression of just how big the building was ... its obviously no peasants house !
Has the ground the side where you stood to take the photo been dug ? The ground to left and right ? Could it have had out-buildings ? Buildings the other side of the track ??
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This is the front doorway looking out. More impresssive stonework and those door jambs are splayed so door opening widens as you come in. There is a collection of bits of old firegrate in the background.
I notice my gloved hand is in the pic - hmmmm, mustn't have taken it.
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As you look through the doorway to the other room you can see two holes in the wall, I wonder what they were for.
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The cottage has undergone many alterations over the centuries, with doorways knocked through and then others being bricked up. Two openings are bricked up here probably done in Victorian times. An entire back room was been bricked up when they first started the dig.
At one stage there had been an outbuilding, probably a privvy. There are buildings still existing close by. There is a barn and the trackway in front of the house leads to it. There are two or three farm and barn modern convertions grouped together within 100 yards of the ruin and the whole group together with the ruin will account for 'Overhouses' in the census records. I believe all the buildings shown on the old maps are accounted for.
2 more pics, this time of bricked up openings.
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... and another fireplace in the 2nd front room.
As you look through the doorway to the other room you can see two holes in the wall, I wonder what they were for.
I don't know what they are bb, unless they are simply missing stones. I'll check on other photos.
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... and finally, because I'm sure you have had enough of all these photos, here is one we I took on an early trip with just my OH. We couldn't gain access to the site as it was cordoned off, but this shows the overall size quite well, and the position of the reservoir at the left hand side, and also the barn that is at the end of the unearthed trackway.
Maggie
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Maggie
I am loving this thread. I wish it happened more often here, discussion of social history can provide so much information to flesh out our family trees.
So when I rob a bank, any chance of a piece of floor to crash on so I can go see this stuff up close? ;D
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This is a view from the opposite side with the reservoir on the right hand side. You can see the dig in the middle distance, also the barn. Good Old Pendle is wearing her winter coat in the background.
Maggie
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Keep them going Maggie - there are another 9 pages to go and everyone is enjoying them.
You'd better hurry up and do that bank job Karen, you've only got a few weeks until it is demolished. ;D
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Maggie
I am loving this thread. I wish it happened more often here, discussion of social history can provide so much information to flesh out our family trees.
So when I rob a bank, any chance of a piece of floor to crash on so I can go see this stuff up close? ;D
There is a bed for you here and pie and peas in The Pendle Inn for us anytime, Karen ;)
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Maggie
I am loving this thread. I wish it happened more often here, discussion of social history can provide so much information to flesh out our family trees.
So when I rob a bank, any chance of a piece of floor to crash on so I can go see this stuff up close? ;D
There is a bed for you here and pie and peas in The Pendle Inn for us anytime, Karen ;)
One pillow will be ample thanks Maggie.. ;)
Keep them going Maggie - there are another 9 pages to go and everyone is enjoying them.
You'd better hurry up and do that bank job Karen, you've only got a few weeks until it is demolished. ;D
I agree.... more Maggie... more...
As to the bank job, dunno if I can pull it off, so suppose I had just better stick to the pool job and earn it legally.. ;D ;D ;D
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One pillow will be ample thanks Maggie..
What about the other nine? ;D ;)
Just have to put this one up. The smoke is coming from the houses in Barley - as you can see there is not much of it. The reservoir and Overhouses are on the immediate right and Pendle is off to the right. Straight ahead is evidence of ridge and furrow ploughing. Now how much more can you get in one photo? Oh - and it's sunshining as well :D
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Keep them coming Maggie ........... love looking at the scenery. When we were in the UK Mr KHP was amazed by all the stone fences ........
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KHP the stone fences your husband liked are called dry stone walling.
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Just caught up with this Maggie, wonderful stuff.
I'm more fortunate than a lot of the others reading this thread, having spent a lot of time in years gone by walking and playing in the area.
Can't beat you though as you live in it ;)
Thought I'd add this for a little extra atmosphere. Hands up who know the song. ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0jhb/
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Been going some googling about this part of the world, which up till now I will admit I knew absolutely nothing. What a fantastic place to live, surrounded by all that history. Over here we think something is old if is was built before WW1.. or went to Kinder with Charlotte;D ;D
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Well I've just found this one.
It is an excellent example of the type of farmhouse around here. It is abandoned now - I think the last occupant left in the 1970s. Many of them have been snapped up for conversion but this one is quite isolated and in a horrible state of disrepair. It is a 15 minute walk from Barley and there is no car access. You can see the left hand side of Pendle rising behind. The hillsides are littered with these types of dwellings, or were before they were all converted.
KHP the stone fences your husband liked are called dry stone walling.
;D ;D
bb- you just beat me to it with that comment.
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Just caught up with this Maggie, wonderful stuff.
I'm more fortunate than a lot of the others reading this thread, having spent a lot of time in years gone by walking and playing in the area.
Can't beat you though as you live in it ;)
Thought I'd add this for a little extra atmosphere. Hands up who know the song. ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0jhb/
Brilliant Sue - the perfect backing. Roger Whittaker used to sing it didn't he?
You'd laugh if you could hear me trying to sing along though as I've hardly any voice due to a rotten cold :(
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Many of them have been snapped up for conversion but this one is quite isolated and in a horrible state of disrepair.
We have been watching the Renovation Shows where they renovate the old buildings and barns, lots of back breaking work and dedication over the months and loads of money spent on doing it, but what an amazing finish at the end.
Thanks BB for that. :)
Cheers
KHP
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I was thinking more of this lot.Maggie.
I used to frequent the Accy folk club in the 60's. Wednesday nights.
http://www.youmustrememberthis.co.uk/pendlefolk.htm
I'm croaky, sniffly and achey too. won't catch me singing in public ::) ::) ::)
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Goodness me - a blast from the past. I know Jean D*****s quite well and l remember Roger. I'd forgotten all about The Pendle Folk.
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This is their version but the other had the photos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sen_hMItaSI
Is Jean still singing Maggie?
Hope the pics of Pendle, together with the song hope to bring the spirit of the area a little closer to everyone.
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So Maggie. That abandoned ruined farmhouse?? What would one expect to have to fork out for the privilege of ownership these days?
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I always loved "Old Pendle" and still sing it (to myself) - thanks for posting the link Sue.
Gosh, the Pendle Folk Club, I had forgotten about it too!!! I think I have Roger singing Old Pendle somewhere ::)
Mo
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I'll send a PM - Sue.
No idea Karen ???
I assume there is no land with it ..... but there might be. There are only the 4 walls left and a load of rubble and rubbish inside. Probably not that much but it would cost a fortune to make it habitable, then there is the mile long drive to construct, and all the 'stone fencing'. It's been on the market for years.
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Dear me Maggie...where is your sense of adventure? ;D
After one purchased such a property, one would have no money left for a vehicle hence no need for a drive.
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I,ve only just found this thread, amazing Maggie :D
How did I miss it ???
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Welcome Patrish - now you know what 'Up North' is like ;D
Karen - sense of adventure? Have you seen where I live ::)
Well no, you haven't but I'll tell you all about it sometime ;)
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Maggie, I'm still a bit 'disturbed' that the ruins are to be demolished simply to avoid possible 'trouble'. Can you explain a bit more about what may happen if the ruins remain?
Is there any push to preserve the site?
I suppose if the cat hadn't been found in the walls, then none of this Pendle witches business would have surfaced and the ruins may have been saved?
Your photos are wonderful Maggie - if you have more I would love to see them.
Re the dilapidated farmhouse which is for sale: it appears to be in such a bad state that it would need to be completely rebuilt maybe just reusing some of the stones, and there's a danger that all it's integrity would be lost - it could just become a modern dwelling which reuses some old materials. I think that people sometimes overdo these kinds of renovations (does anyone remember castle in 'Grand Designs'? .... in fact many of the 'improvements' in Grand Designs ....) :P). If it were my dilapidated farmhouse I would preserve it as is - it makes a nice folly.
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The trouble with the UK is that there are SO many lovely places. Last month I was entertaining living in Northumberland, las week I was just about to move to Scotland ... now seeing these photos I think I belong in Yorkshire.
Many moons ago, in a previous life, I almost found myself living there. ;)
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Welcome Patrish - now you know what 'Up North' is like ;D
Hey, don`t go giving our secrets away - they think we are all cloth caps and ferrets up here ;D ;D ;D In reality we all know we have the most beautiful countryside.
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now seeing these photos I think I belong in Yorkshire.
You're asking for trouble Ruskie - it's in Lancashire. ;D ;D ;D ;D
I think from what Maggie said in the first post it has to be demolished because of the reservoir and flooding.
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now seeing these photos I think I belong in Yorkshire.
You're asking for trouble Ruskie - it's in Lancashire. ;D ;D ;D ;D
I think from what Maggie said in the first post it has to be demolished because of the reservoir and flooding.
True - it is in the way. And no-one wants it to become a shrine for the ghost hunters as has happened with other properties. Do you remember that TV programme Most Haunted? In one of their programmes they took over a couple of nearby farms for the night and shreiked and collapsed dramatically whilst they were supposedly attacked by Demdike?
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[In one of their programmes they took over a couple of nearby farms for the night and shreiked and collapsed dramatically whilst they were supposedly attacked by Demdike?
Then they came back to do a further episode - they must have really loved the experience the first time :P :P ;D ;D ;D
Hope you had your ear defenders on Maggie as you would certainly have heard the screams there ;D ;D ;D
Mo
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Lifted from Wikipedia
The area is now popular with ghost hunters after Living channel's show Most Haunted visited the hill for a live investigation on Halloween 2004.[2] The show's presenter, Yvette Fielding, said it was the scariest episode they had made to date, and it is still widely considered to have been the scariest of the entire series.
Actually they didn't visit the hill, they visited 2 farms.
The entire valley still talks about it, Mo ;D ;D ;D
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This such a great thread Maggie,loving it all ;D
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Maybe your ruined farmhouse will appear on Grand designs soon Maggie - not the one you've excavated - tho other one recently bought! then we will be able to see what a 'job' they make of it!
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Now that would be interesting wouldn't it?
However I must go to bed ..... g'night.
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Lifted from Wikipedia
The area is now popular with ghost hunters after Living channel's show Most Haunted visited the hill for a live investigation on Halloween 2004.[2] The show's presenter, Yvette Fielding, said it was the scariest episode they had made to date, and it is still widely considered to have been the scariest of the entire series.
Actually they didn't visit the hill, they visited 2 farms.
The entire valley still talks about it, Mo ;D ;D ;D
I saw the programme - I have to say it was all very silly, and I'd watched it hoping to learn some more about the Pendle Witches. The recent Simon Armitage programme made up for this though. It's also the anniversary of the trials next year so no doubt that would attract more people in to get up to whatever they get up to.
The bread ovens interested me because they wouldn't be a feature in many houses at all, especially back then (bread was more often baked communally or in a pot over the fire, like traditional soda breads now), so this must have belonged to a rich or important family. Could it possibly have been a hunting lodge? Not sure which estate it would have fallen under - the Lords of Bowland?
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Lifted from Wikipedia
The area is now popular with ghost hunters after Living channel's show Most Haunted visited the hill for a live investigation on Halloween 2004.[2] The show's presenter, Yvette Fielding, said it was the scariest episode they had made to date, and it is still widely considered to have been the scariest of the entire series.
Actually they didn't visit the hill, they visited 2 farms.
The entire valley still talks about it, Mo ;D ;D ;D
For those still awake just google "Tynedale farm most haunted" and "Lower Well Head Farm Most Haunted"
night all,
Mo
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The cat in the wall intrigues me - not least because I have cats and I love folklore.
I found a story on the BBC news site from 2009 about a cat being found in the lath walls of a Devon cottage and the opinion is that it was put there to ward off bad luck. I won't link as it has a photo of said poor moggie, but it's easy to find if you are interested. I also found another site (again with some quite unpleasant photos) which states there have been over a hundred instances on record (discounting those not recorded) of cats being found in walls. One claim is they may have been set there to scare off mice - and again, the suggestion that they could have been there for protection.
So one thing you can say for certain if the cat was put there deliberately - it does not signify it was the cottage of a witch! Was the cat found in the doorway itself? Because there's a lot of superstition around thresholds - and going back to boggarts, that's where they were supposed to like to live in a house.
Anyway, the photos are fab. I'm due a trip to Pendle soon, not been there in years :(
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now seeing these photos I think I belong in Yorkshire.
You're asking for trouble Ruskie - it's in Lancashire. ;D ;D ;D ;D
I think from what Maggie said in the first post it has to be demolished because of the reservoir and flooding.
oops. :-[ WIth the talk of Settle and Hebden Bridge I thought the farmhouse was in Yorkshire ... :-[
Gosh, sorry all -I've probably offended the population of two counties in one small sentence. :-[
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I saw the programme - I have to say it was all very silly, and I'd watched it hoping to learn some more about the Pendle Witches. The recent Simon Armitage programme made up for this though. It's also the anniversary of the trials next year so no doubt that would attract more people in to get up to whatever they get up to.
Ever so slightly off topic, ... but the few episodes of "Most Haunted" that I've seen were hardly scary, even for me with a fear of ghosties! In fact, there've been a couple of eps that have had me laughing so hard I was in tears and got a stitch. "Silly" doesn't seem anywhere near a strong enough word, but I'll bite my tongue on what I could have called it.
Haven't seen the Simon Armitage programme, however - any idea on which network/channel might I find replays (on the opposite side of the planet, but with Foxtel)?
Back on topic, though ... loving this thread, Maggie! Please keep it up! :)
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Keeping up with it too, Maggie ... ( since the skype prompt over weekend 8) ) ... a very interactive thread with the photographs posted along with the information and interesting questions.... wonderful!!
great scenic photos in that 'Old Pendle' folk song link too, Su ...
:) mare
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One claim is they may have been set there to scare off mice - and again, the suggestion that they could have been there for protection.
So one thing you can say for certain if the cat was put there deliberately - it does not signify it was the cottage of a witch! Was the cat found in the doorway itself? Because there's a lot of superstition around thresholds - and going back to boggarts, that's where they were supposed to like to live in a house.
To answer Lal - the archeaologist, who confirmed that it had been 'placed' rather than crawled in and died, said that there were instances of dead cats being positioned in walls facing nose to nose with a dead mouse as though about to catch it. Presumably this was to deter the mouse population ...... or the cat population? He said the cat was Victorian and one would imagine by then the fear of evil abounding in Pendle had abated a little. Having said that, it is a country district and villagers would have held on to old memories for a long time. The cat was found at shoulder height in a bricked-up doorway - they found it when they opened up to doorway.
I don't live in Barley, I'm in an equally small village nearby. In the external wall of the house of my neighbour is a stone lintol over what was once a small doorway but is now built up. In this lintol is a small circular hole that goes all the way through the stone. Supposedly it was put there so that any evil spirits could get out. My rather sceptical and analytical OH does not believe this!!
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I haven't seen the Simon Armitage programme either but I would love to if still possible.
Most Haunted is idiotic but good for a laugh occasionally when there is nothing else on the telly. However a lot of folk do take this stuff for real and thus that Pendle programme would encourage an entirely false idea of the witch story in some people's minds.
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Gosh, sorry all -I've probably offended the population of two counties in one small sentence
You haven't offended me, Ruskie ..... I have family roots on both sides of the Pennines ;D
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Now ....... pay attention ;D
This photo is a close-up of one already posted showing the front elevation of the cottage. Hopefully you can see that a lot of the stones are darker with a blueish tinge, and shiny. They look 'wetter', although it was a wet day so they were ALL wet to a degree.
These are worked boulder stone, also known as 'mud stone' and will have come from a river. This is a form of sandstone but slightly different in appearance from quarried sandstone that looks porous and is of a lighter colour. There is a fast flowing river at Barley so it's likely that the majority of the building material came from that source, the rest would come from sandstone quarries scattered on nearby hillsides. The door jambs are different again - still sandstone but you can see they have a pink hue. We are just talking about the exterior walls here - OH and I haven't got round to studying the composition of the interior walls yet.
Therefore it's likely that whoever built the elevational walls used a very handy local source of stone. The internal door jambs however appear to have come from a different source.
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Geology 101.... thanks for the info Prof Maggie... ;D
Seriously though, great stuff.
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Brilliant thread, Maggie, love the pics.
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Maggie should have her own tv series ;D ;D ;D
Seriously though, how much are uu going to get if they sell off all the materials here?
Another piece of history to disappear :(
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Thanks Karen and Barbara.
More musings.......................... regarding those door jambs - they have mason's marks. Would a stone mason permit his beautiful 'signed' stone to be badly aligned, ie. the jointing left and right doesn't match up? I think it is more likely these jambs were imported into the building during one of its 'renovation' phases.
Maggie, pausing for breath and a cup of coffee :)
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I've been following this interesting thread and considering some of the points that have been raised.
Last summer, I was involved in excavating a similar ruin, that of an old coach house and stables, same sort of age and condition but covering a larger area, though the remaining standing walls were not quite so tall. These stables belong to the National Trust and the question has been; what to do with the ruins now they're uncovered. The problems with preserving ruins like these (both the cottage and the stables) are numerous. It costs quite a lot of money to stabilise and protect walls which have no roof over, left in the British weather the interior plaster will soon drop off and the mortar will soon crumble from freeze-thaw. The site is open to vandalism and pilfering which could leave the ruins in a dangerous condition for other visitors. In the particular case of the cottage, there is the nuisance problem which may affect the local villagers from the "occultists". Is there any point in saving ruins like these? - casual visitors can't interpret them and it costs money to design, erect and maintain interpretation boards yet the ruins won't generate any money from entrance fees etc. The cottage ruins would have remained covered if the water company had not wanted to do the flood prevention works - at least now they have been revealed and recorded and the materials can be partly reused in the form of walling etc. which will continue the tradition of reuse and recycling of the stones that seems to have been going on for 4 or 500 years at least. Obviously I'm not suggesting that our old building heritage should be ignored or lost, but there comes a point when the costs of preservation outweigh the benefits..... :-\
As regards the stables, the Nat Trust has covered them over to protect them while the great and the good ponder what to do next......
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Though I believe it has other names worldwide. I berlieve an "overhouse" is living accomodation for people situated over a stable or cow shed etc. The heat from the animals rising helps keep the accomodation warmer in winter, and no doubt adds to the flies in summer. :)
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Further observations: Maggie you have done an excellent and informative job with those photos,but the archaeologist in me suggests that if you treat us to any more in the future, please take a yellow foot or 30 cm rule and incorporate it in the picture to define the size of the object accurately. Regarding the site itself, from the scale of the internal door jaumbes,( Lincolnshire via Yorkshire!) it suggests to me that the doorway was once an external doorway and became inside after an extension. Mason's put their marks on stonework as they were paid by the piece, these have probably been resited. The 1592 stone looks too new to me to be original, I suggest it might be a replacement stone. However, though the building does look 16th century my archaeology tutor always taught my class that without further confirmation, a date on a stone was simply that, it could have been carved at any time. Hope the southerners realise that in virtually every winter include mild ones like this there is snow in the north of England, and not always on high ground! Thanks Maggie for a magnificent and informative thread.
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Alpine - thanks so much for your considered and highly relevant observations as to why not all these ruins can be preserved and cared for, particularly in the present economic climate. The rate at which stuff has been taken from the Barley site is remarkable - it was happening even before the media coverage, so in no time at all the site would be reduced to a minimum if simply left. And to repeat what I said earlier (I think) it is one of many ruins scattered around the hillsides around here, all of which probably have an equally interesting tale to tell. The only reason this one was singled out is that it is a requirement these days that before any work proposals, for example by United Utilities, can start any finds unearthed are subjected to an archaeology report and if deemed appropriate work stops until the site has been thoroughly excavated as in this case.
The good thing about our cottage is that as part of this work, literally everything has been documented, photographed and a full report will be produced. Therefore even stuff that was subsequently stolen from the site has been recorded.
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Hi RR - you make a good point re: incorporating a rule. My only excuse for not doing so is that we normally rely an our historian member to do bring his rule and he wasn't present. I don't think it occured to the rest of us that this would have been a good idea.
I agree - those jambs look far too substantial to be internal.
Good point regarding the date stone and it does indeed look in remarkable condition for its supposed age. Perhaps it has replaced an earlier one and the date is accurate - I should be able to find out more about the house as it is listed.
Thanks for your kind words, RR - I have enjoyed sharing all this immensely. I'm so pleased to have perhaps changed people's conception of Lancashire. It so often gets a negative press.
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Goodness, I turn my back on this thread for half a day and it seems to have galloped through about ten pages! Nice to see the additional photos, Maggie,
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No time to catch up this week Maggie,
How come I missed this one??
Rabbit B ;D
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Here in Wales we are in a similar position in that there are literally hundreds of semi-collapsed dwellings/agricultural buildings in the landscape. The majority of these are on agricultural land and therefore do have legal owners; other examples are on common land. All of them are fascinating.
There is a problem, though, with the restoration of a lot of them because of planning policies. Generally local plans allow for new houses, barn conversions and renovations on the fringes of villages; however, in areas of outstanding natural beauty, national parks etc, there are policies which aim to keep the areas unspoilt, and thus discourage renovations of isolated buildings. As planning law stands at the moment, if one isolated ruin received planning permission for renovation/conversion, it would then be possible for someone to put in an application to build nextdoor to it, and before you know it, the beauty of the landscape which attracted people in the first place would have become blighted by residential sprawl. There is an area about 40 miles from where I live which is stunningly beautiful, but the local authority started allowing development in the open countryside, and now large areas are blighted by rows and rows of modern rectangular bungalows.
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No time to catch up this week Maggie,
How come I missed this one??
Rabbit B ;D
No worries Rabbit - it ain't going anywhere just yet ;D
It only began life on Saturday afternoon.
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This is quite an interesting article on the theme I was trying to explore and it considers the point Greensleeves has introduced - reusing a ruin is the best way of protecting it - but that encourages changes in the surroundings which might not be best for the ruin - it's a dilemma!
http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/heritageruins/heritageruins.htm
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however, in areas of outstanding natural beauty, national parks etc, there are policies which aim to keep the areas unspoilt, and thus discourage renovations of isolated buildings. As planning law stands at the moment, if one isolated ruin received planning permission for renovation/conversion, it would then be possible for someone to put in an application to build nextdoor to it, and before you know it, the beauty of the landscape which attracted people in the first place would have become blighted by residential sprawl.
Exactly the same here, GS. The whole of Bowland is an AONB.
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I'm still banging on about the cost of preservation ;D ::)
A similar sized roofless chapel in Scotland is expected to cost £130,000 to cap the walls and repoint the stonework :o
Right, I've finished going on about money now ;D ;D
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I agree with GS re S. Wales anyway. The trouble is, people renovate a small barn, move in, then apply for planning to add rooms, and before you know it, a small two roomed dwelling has five bedrooms with en suite bathrooms !! I could show you something exactly like that half a mile away. AND the people who own it now want to sell, so they have put in a new wider access lane, (previously a muddy bridle path) which they have covered in massive stone chippings, totally unsuitable for horses !
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Sticking with the idea of preservation, it is interesting in these parts and presumably elsewhere to study the stonework of the old houses and cottages. There is an old and inhabited cottage we know with very interesting window lintols - they are toothed on their long sides. They originally would have been in a
lime Grain kiln and probably indicate the presence long ago of a kiln in the immediate vicinity of the cottage, which is one of a small group of similar cottages now on the outskirts of a medium sized village, but on the old maps it is a separate community.
They were of no great significance to the present occupants of the cottage who probably just regarded them as peculiar looking lintols until they learned what they were. Good that they are preserved and have been noted.
Error corrected - Maggie
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Unless the rules have recently changed, our local planning regulations limit the size of the proposed additional area to a third of the size of the original. This has put a brake on over-development of properties.
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Oh yes, we have that too ... but it doesn't stop them. Brown envelopes to the right people ... nudge, nudge, wink, wink ...
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Ooooh - corruption in high places! :o
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Quite !
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Now then - to continue .......
From my vast supply of pics, here are two of the ruined Whalley Abbey - a contender for the source of the dressed stone.
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One more.
I think the stone is different.
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another beautiful ruin Maggie.
It may be the shadow, the time of year the photos were taken etc but the stone looks darker and more ribbed than the ruined cottage.
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Maggie
if you do a trip out again with your LHS please take more photos. There are so many interesting places to see. I am fascinated! Keep it up.
One of my favourite places is Tyneham village down in Dorset - the Government turfed everyone out so they could use it for tank target practice. There was an ancient manor house there and many families had been in the area for hundreds of years. It is all smashed up now!!! :'(
Does anyone know where I can find the Pendle Witch programme? I missed it and forgot to record it.
Thanks
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Do any of you know this prat http://youtu.be/n9wi3uKH3Cs
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Do any of you know this prat http://youtu.be/n9wi3uKH3Cs
Ohhhhhhh Noooooooo - the undertaker ::)
He is dragged out every time there is a mention on the witches. I understand he is a tour guide :o
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I noticed quite a few utube clips of the cottage, some better than others.
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another beautiful ruin
I trust you are not describing me, BB ;D
if you do a trip out again with your LHS please take more photos. There are so many interesting places to see. I am fascinated! Keep it up.
I will, kaz :)
I would also like to know where to find that programme.
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Do any of you know this prat http://youtu.be/n9wi3uKH3Cs
Well described!!! I can assure you he is not one of my Entwistles (I hope) ;D ;D ;D
Mo
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that was 'your' cottage in the clip, wasn't it Maggie?? could see the dam wall of the behind him! :-\
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Hmm those stone door jambs in 'your' cottage don't seem to match the stone from the abbey, I agree. So not from there then!
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Just had another look at your earlier photos. Those jambs look as though they are carved out of red sandstone. What colour is the sandstone in your area? Is it likely that the stone could have been sourced locally?
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One of my favourite places is Tyneham village down in Dorset - the Government turfed everyone out so they could use it for tank target practice. There was an ancient manor house there and many families had been in the area for hundreds of years. It is all smashed up now!!! :'(
Nothing to do with Maggies thread ...
I've been to Tyneham ... some of the buildings are still as they were, school, for e.g.
By chance I was given a book called 'Tyneham - a Triibute' by Dr Andrew Norman ... and I knew I had ancestors from there ... and the book has a picture of one of them ! I had no idea, until I found her in the book !! Mrs Barnes the post-mistress, 1911 !!
Sorry ... back to Maggie !!
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Following on from my previous post about the red sandstone, Maggie, I've been looking at the British Geological Survey website and you can actually look on there (for free!) to check out the geology of the United Kingdom. Thought you might find it interesting.
http://www.bgs.ac.uk/discoveringGeology/geologyOfBritain/viewer.html
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Oh thats a good site. Thanks ...
But people have always moved stone from other areas, dont forget ... even the stones in Stonehenge came from Wales ! They must have liked our stone, GS !!
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I agree with GS re S. Wales anyway. The trouble is, people renovate a small barn, move in, then apply for planning to add rooms, and before you know it, a small two roomed dwelling has five bedrooms with en suite bathrooms !!
Oh no that is dreadful. I didn't know that this was what happened and planning permission for renovations can be the thin edge of the wedge. :(
our local planning regulations limit the size of the proposed additional area to a third of the size of the original. This has put a brake on over-development of properties.
I suppose this was a step in the right direction but obviously not working if people are getting around it via the bribery route.
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There was certainly no bribery allowed when I was involved with the Parish Council, and the local Parish Council had a large say in what could be approved by the Planning Committee.
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Just had another look at your earlier photos. Those jambs look as though they are carved out of red sandstone. What colour is the sandstone in your area? Is it likely that the stone could have been sourced locally?
It is not as red as in the cottage - more of a golden colour. Thank you for the web link, GS. I have only just got myself back in here but I shall look later.
I'm amazed to see that we are about to go onto page 20, which means I will have to lock the door. Shall I open another door, or have we talked enough about history, geology, photography, archaeology et al?
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Lydart, I know they moved stone about but usually for a specific purpose, such as the bluestones at Stonehenge. However, my point was to query if the sandstone of the door jambs matched the colour of sandstone available in the general area. If it does, then it is possible that it was quarried fairly close and it might be possible to find the quarry, and thus we could assume that the original building from which it was taken might be fairly close.
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I'm amazed to see that we are about to go onto page 20, which means I will have to lock the door. Shall I open another door, or have we talked enough about history, geology, photography, archaeology et al?
In a word Maggie.......................... MORE
please ;D
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GS .. I read somewhere recently that some of the other stone also came from S. Wales, but not the blue stone quarrry, another ...
Quite amazing, when you think of the distance
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Yes, more please !
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Oh more please Maggie ;D
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Keep it going, Maggie there is obviously a lot of interest.
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There are many many quarries on the hillsides - our own house is built of the local stuff and it is definitely not of the same hue as the cottage. I shall be looking closely on my walks to see if I can spot any further examples of red sandstone.
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Echo what the others have said ............ more pretty please :)
Loved those last photos with the background of trees.
Cheers
KHP
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Hang on then. No more posting or I'll get my hands slapped.
I need to get a cup of tea first .................................
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Yes, definitely more! This is just fascinating.
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The doorman approacheth with a link.....................
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=574949.new
and the key.
Maggie :)