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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: debrao on Wednesday 04 January 12 11:17 GMT (UK)
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My great grandmother was Ernestina Church. She was born in Northam, Western Australia in 1880 and married Daniel Rule in Northam in 1898. They had a number of children including my grandmother Gladys Ernestina Rule who was born in 1907.
Ernestina Church (Rule) died in 1919. My grandmother Gladys was sent to live with her Grandpa George Church in the Pinjarra/Coolup area. I have found records of George and Jane Church (nee Moore) in Coolup but they were married in 1903. There are therefore unlikely to be Ernestina Church's parents even though the name and residence is a match. In addition, Jane Church died in 1956 aged 90 which would make her only 14 when Ernestina was born in 1880.
Pinjarra cemetary has a record of a John Church (buried 15/9/1937 aged 86) and a Jane Church (buried 29/8/1956 aged 90). This Jane appears to be one and the same as the Jane Moore who married George Church. I do not know how John and Jane were related but they appear to be buried in the same grave.
I wondered if George had a first wife who may have been Ernestina's mother and did find a record of a George William Church (born in South Australia in 1950) marrying a Mary Elizabeth Meyers in Victoria in 1871 and them having 10 children including an Ernestina born in Victoria in 1880. However, this Mary seems to have lived until 1926 and there is no record of a divorce from George or of any of the 10 children, other than Ernestina living in Western Australia. Other family trees also list her as remarrying a Mr Barr in 1900 after George supposedly died. This is all very confusing.
Can anyone help me identify the parents of Ernestina Church?
Thanks very much
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This could be your John Church. :-\
There is a death notice for a George Church who died 13th September 1937 at Coolup aged 87.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/38693800
Johngirl
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She was born in Northam, Western Australia in 1880 and married Daniel Rule in Northam in 1898.
This marriage certificate should give you her father's name and his occupation.
Information on all certificates in WA
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
There is no birth registration for Ernestina in WA. What evidence do you have that Ernestina was born 1880 at Northam in WA?
Are her parents named on her death cert....although she died 1919 her death was registered in 1920.
Daniel's funeral notice
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ja6/
Cheers
Cando
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Thanks for the responses. I agree that the "John" Church buried with Jane is probaby George and that the cemetary records are simply wrong.
On checking, I have no evidence that Ernestina Church was born in Northam. I know she was married there and died there as I have records of those events, but no record of her birth. I also know that Electoral Rolls show that she and Daniel lived in Coolup in 1903. I have ordered a copy of Daniel and Ernestina's marriage certificate but the Christmas/New Year period means that it is still coming.
I still don't know how the Ernestina Church born in 1880 in Victoria to Mary Elizabeth Meyer and George William Church fits although it seems that George Church of Coolup was also born in or around 1850.
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This may be Ernestina's b. 1880 Victoria, death in Queensland. I can't see a daughter Elizabeth born to this couple.
https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/BirIndexQry.m
1950/C5394 s
URQUHART Elizabeth Ernestina
Father George Church Mother Elizabeth Meyers
Cando
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Thanks Cando. I think that settles it that George William Church and Mary Elizabeth Meyers are not Ernestina Church Rule's parents given that their Ernestina (or Elizabeth Ernestina) married an Urquhart and died in QLD in 1950. The name is a bit of a mystery though as I have the full record of Ernestina's (Church/Meyers) birth and she is just listed as Ernestina not Elizabeth Ernestina.
In any event, my Ernestina Church married Daniel Rule in 1898 in Northam WA and died there in 1919. The death notice of George W Church of Coolup WA makes it even more confusing though because his middle name could also be William and he too was born around 1950 as was the George William Church who married Mary Elizabeth Meyers.
I'm told that I won't be receiving Daniel and Ernestina's marriage certificate for at least a week so any help in the meantime would be appreciated.
Thanks!
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No mystery really. Not unusual to have a 2nd given name not on the birth certificate. As someone said to me many moons ago....just remember genealogy is not an exact science ;)
When you say you have the full record do you mean you have the birth certificate or simply the index entry?
Cando
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I have an image of her birth record which I paid to obtain from the Victoria BDM. It lists parents, their birthplaces and occupations and any siblings etc.
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Hi debrao
The URQUHART marriage was in 1891.
Reg #2121
Bride: Elizth CHURCH
URQUHART children born in VIC were recorded in 1892, 1893, 1895 with mother Elizabeth CHURCH.
Definitely not Ernestina who married Robert URQUHART.
Rhonda
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OK...Debrao would you please list the siblings born prior to Ernestina...and I am certainly aware of what information is available on Victorian birth, death and marriage certs ;)
It is always helpful to other forum members if you happen to have a cert, to list ALL the information. It is often the smallest snippet of info that breaks down brick walls :)
What are the parents ages on the birth cert?
Apologies for not following up the info on Elizabeth before posting....I usually do that but am having problems with my Vic discs at the moment. However there is no birth registration for Elizabeth with parents George and Elizabeth MEYER. There are registrations missing from the Vic bdm's and perhaps this is one of them. I notice on Elizabeth's marriage reg that she was born Dandenong [Robert was born Sydney] and that was also the place of birth for sibling George in 1872.
Perhaps wait for the marriage cert to arrive :)
This may be your George....his father was Isaac and George was born South Australia.
CHURCH George
Criminal records 1850-1900 Victoria
Born 1852 Adelaide
Source: Victorian prisoners index c.1850-1900 (males) VPRS 515/10 Page#07221
Comment: Mother at Bendigo, Father Isaac. Prisoner No 7128
Cheers
Cando
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The George Church born in SA in 1950 seems to me to be the George William Church who married Mary Elizabeth Meyers in Vic, rather than my George who married Jane Moore in WA.
The Ernestina Church born to George William Church and Mary Elizabeth Meyer on 2 Nov 1880 had older siblings Jane, Isaac, Sabina and James. I have found all of their birth and some death records as well as those of other children George an Mary had. Their Ernestina's birth record states that George was born in Adelaide in SA and Mary in Harkaway, South Australia, although I think this is an error and should be Harkaway, Victoria.
I can find no record of my Ernestina Church being born to George Church and Jane Moore of Coolup, WA. That doesn't surprise me though as George and Jane only married in 1903 and Ernestina was born in 1880 (I have seen her grave and it lists this year as the year of her birth and 1919 as the year of her death). I am convinced that George had a first wife who gave birth to Ernestina and thought I may have struck gold when I found Ernestina Church born to George Church and Mary Elizabeth Meyers. However, as none of the Church/Meyer children ended up in WA, and Mary died in QLD in 1926 - and it seems that Ernestina Church/Meyer married a Mr Urquhart, it seems that it is an unhappy co-incidence and I am still missing a mother for my Ernestina and a first wife for my George!
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As Rhonda pointed out Ernestina born 1880 could not have married Robert URQUHART in 1891...she would have been 11 years of age.
Cheers
Cando
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What were the parents' ages on the birth certificate please?
Cando
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Thought some information sounded familiary. A previous thread about George William CHURCH - his wife had re-married by 1900.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,469318.0.html
Cando
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Oop typo.... should be familiar :-[
Cando
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Perhaps George and Jane's 1903 marriage certificate would be useful :)
Cando
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Yes I've ordered George and Jane's marriage certificate also.
I saw the previous thread about George William Church and Mary Meyers which confirmed that they are unlikely to be my Ernestina's parents.
Will post the details once I have George and Jane, and Daniel and Ernestina's marriage certificates.
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I guess there will be a number of us interested in the info on the two marriage certificates :)
I saw the previous thread about George William Church and Mary Meyers which confirmed that they are unlikely to be my Ernestina's parents.
I wouldn't completely dismiss them as this George Wm CHURCH's death has not been found....as yet.
Wonder what happened to their daugher Ernestina born 1880?
Could we please have the age of Ernestina's parents on her birth certificate?
The eternal optimist ;D
Cando
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George 29 and Mary 24
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Hi Debrao
I believe "your" Ernestina was in fact the Ernestina born 1880 in VIC to George William CHURCH (born 30 Sep 1850 in SA) and his first wife Mary Elizabeth MEYERS.
Since Ernestina's mother married a second time it is obvious the marriage ended, and the reason why George William married Jane MOORE.
This man who died in the Wellington district in 1937 was in fact George William CHURCH of Coolup.
CHURCH George W
Year 1937
WELLINGTON district reg #119
The West Australian (Perth, WA) < Monday 24 January 1938 >
PUBLIC NOTICES.
In The SUPREME COURT OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA.
PROBATE JURISDICTION.
N THE MATTER of the WILL of GEORGE WILLIAM CHURCH in the said Will called 'George Church’, late of Coolup, In the State of Western Australia, farmer, deceased.
NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that all persons having claims or demands against the Estate of the above-named GEORGE WILLIAM CHURCH, in the said Will called "George Church." late of Coolup in the State of Western Australia, farmer, deceased, are hereby required to forward particulars in writing of such claims or demands to THE WEST AUSTIRALIAN TRUSTEE EXECUTOR AND AGENCY COMPANY, LIMITED, of 135 St. George's-ter.. Perth, the Executor named, in the said Will of the said deceased on or before the 28th day of February. 1938, . . .
Essie
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Thanks for your post Essie. I thought the same but what I can't understand is why Ernestina turns up in Western Australia, but there is no record of any of the other 8 or so children of George and Mary doing so. I also can't find any record of a divorce between George and Mary. Hopefully when I receive the marriage certificates I am waiting for the mystery will be solved.
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I am also convinced this is George William CHURCH b. 1850 Adelaide who married a c15 year old [according to her age on Ernestina's birth cert] Elizabeth Mary MEYER and Jane MOORE in 1903. I can only find one
birth for an Ernestina CHURCH born in Australia and that is the one in 1880 Vic.
I think you must consider there is every possibility there was no divorce.
It would be interesting to see this marriage cert.
1900/C1965
BARR Alan
CHURCH Elizabeth Mary
Not a happy marriage
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0jd5/
Link to legal notice for George...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0jd1/
Hope those certs don't take too long :)
Cheers
Cando
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Well part of the mystery is solved now that I have the 2 marriage certificates. According to Ernestina Church's marriage certificate, her mother was Mary Jane Elizabeth Meyer and her father George Church. I guess I never know how it is that Ernestina (who was 17 at the time of her marriage to Daniel Rule) came to WA with or after her father while her mother and the rest of her siblings remained in Victoria.
What makes it even more interesting is the marriage certificate of George Church and Jane Moore. On that certificate, 52 year old George Church is listed as "widower" although we know that Mary Elizabeth Meyers was still alive at the time and married to a Mr Barr. The same Mr Barr who tried to kill her some years later in Townsville (thanks Cando).
Perhaps this is why I cannot find a record of a divorce between Mary and George and that they simply parted ways and later married other people without bothering to obtain a divorce. It would be interesting to see the marriage certificate between Mary Meyer Church and Mr Barr to see whether she listed herself as divorced or widowed.
Thanks to everyone for their comments. If you have anything further to add or any other information, please post!
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Thank you so much for posting the information :).
I don't think there was a divorce and George listing himself as a widower says it all. Yes it would certainly be interesting to see Elizabeth Mary's 2nd marriage cert ;D
Cheers
Cando
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Just a thought....surely Ernestine would have known her mother was still alive when George re-married.
Cando
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You would have thought so. However, the mystery deepens. Several family trees on Ancestry.com list Elizabeth Ernestina Church or Elizabeth Ernestina Jane Church as a daughter of George Church and Mary Elizabeth Meyer (or Elizabeth Mary Meyer) although they provide no citations for the name and attach Ernestina Church's (born 1880) birth certificate as a source (while stating in their trees that Elizabeth Ernestina was born in 1872. Elizabeth Ernestina Church lived in QLD and married twice (Arthur Taylor and Robert Urquhart) and died in Townsville in 1950. Her death record states her father as George Church and mother as Elizabeth Meyer. (I note that Mary Elizabeth Meyer married Alan Barr in 1900 and lived in Townsville).
I recall that Ernestina Church's birth certificate recorded her as having (among other siblings) a sister Jane who was then 9 years old. Perhaps the "Elizabeth Ernestina or Elizabeth Ernestina Jane" Church is Jane Church sister of Ernestina Church and is was Jane who married Messrs Taylor and Urquhart. Why though would she be referred to in her marriage and death certificates as Elizabeth Ernestina rather than Jane, particularly as she had a younger sister Ernestina (who for reasons unknown went to live with George Church in WA).
What else comes out of George Church and Jane Moore's marriage certificate is that George lists his mother as Hannah Smarts or Swarts although his birth record states her name was Hannah Craxton.
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Going back to square one...and it seems George Wm's mother died when he was about four years old so perhaps understandable to make an error with his mother's surname when marrying for the 2nd time in 1903. There is only one George William CHURCH born in South Australia c1850.
Firstly I treat online trees with a great deal of caution. So many are simply copied from one another. A tree should be well referenced with all sources and if it were my tree I would attach all births deaths and marriage certificates that I have in my possession. My very extensive tree will never be placed online as already there is much misinformation on various websites and the authors refuse to accept my corrections [info from bdm certs] I always offer to share information including copies of any documents I have. Family history researchers with 'closed minds' >:( >:( :-X Climbing down from my soapbox now :)
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
Marriages Dec 1845
CHURCH Isaac Wellingbro' 15/843
CRAXTON Hannah Wellingboro 15/843
Births Mar 1847
CHURCH Thomas Craxton Wellingbro 15/403
CHURCH Isaac, Hanna nee CRAXTON, son ?Thomas [died at sea] arrived in SA 16 Jul 1848 aboard the SIBELLA from London via Plymouth.
http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/fh/passengerlists/1848Sibella.htm
According to this link Thomas, son of Isaac died on April 13th. There is diary of the journey on this link as well.
Arrival
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0jjx/
Births in SA
CHURCH Mary Elizabeth
5 Nov 1848
Father Isaac CHURCH Mother Anna CRAXTON
At New Tiers Ade 2/97
CHURCH George William
30 Sep 1850
Father Isaac CHURCH Mother Hannah CRAXTON
At New Tiers Ade 3/115
CHURCH Isaac Charles
16 Sep 1852
Father Isaac CHURCH Mother Hannah CRAXTON
At Adelaide Ade 4/77
Death in Victoria
CHURCH Hannah
Father George CRACKSTON Mother Elizabeth
1854 Reg#2101
Isaac's 2nd marriage
CHURCH Isaac
DAWSON Jane
1855 Reg#2678
Births
CHURCH Robert
Father Isaac Mother Jane LOWES
At Woodford 1859 Reg#3361
CHURCH Thomas
Father Isaac Mother Jane DAWSON
At Terang 1861 Reg#21389
CHURCH Louisa Jane
Father Isaac Mother Jane LOWES
At Eddi 1865 Reg#2078
Deaths
CHURCH Robert
Father Isaac Mother Jane
5 years 1865 Reg#4878
CHURCH Thomas
Father Isaac Mother Jane
3 years 1865 Reg#4896
Deaths - Jane was obviously married to a DAWSON prior to marrying Isaac.
CHURCH Jane
Father LEURS Robert Mother Jane MURRAY
At Berwick 83 years 1906 Reg#4455
Buried at Berwick Cemetery
This must be Isaac's death as the Berwick cemetery has an Isaac buried in 1912
CHURCH Isaac
Parents unknown
At South Yarra 87 years 1912 Reg#7699
and death of son Isaac Charles born 1852
CHURCH Isaac
Father Isaac Church Mother Mary Anna Craxton
At Gembrook 78 years Reg#9282
As I mentioned before genealogy is not an exact science and many people use different given names. If you are so concerned with "Elizabeth Ernestina or Elizabeth Ernestina Jane" I suggest that you purchase some of her certs to validate the information already found. Perhaps Elizabeth Mary BARR's death certificate may have accurate information. The info should possibly be 'born c1872' and even then who really knows the exact date if her birth wasn't registered. Possibly estimated from marriage and death certs....who knows!!
I cannot see a birth for a Jane CHURCH to George W CHURCH and Elizabeth Mary MEYER. I wonder if she was born before they married and is not registered.
You have not commented on the prison record for George CHURCH son of Isaac CHURCH. I have searched for the index entry but I understand there are volumes so fragile that they haven't been indexed. Marion BUTTON obviously had access to these volumes when she was compiling her own indexes at PROV.
I could find more but it's late for me now. I don't think there is any mystery ;D
Cheers
Cando
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Cando thanks for your post.
However there is a mystery. Elizabeth Ernestina Church lived in QLD and married twice (Arthur Taylor and Robert Urquhart) and died in Townsville in 1950. Her death record states her father was George Church and mother Elizabeth Meyer. (I note that Mary Elizabeth Meyer married Alan Barr in 1900 and lived in Townsville). (See attached)
The Ernestina Church of my family's father was also George Church and according to her marriage certificate her mother was Mary Jane Elizabeth Meyer (although this name appears to have been written by a different hand to the other writing on the certificate) married Daniel Rule in Kalgoorlie in 1898 and died in Northam in 1919. (See attached)
These two individuals are clearly not one and the same and yet appear to have the same parents. It leaves me with a lingering uncertainty that Ernestina Church Rule of WA is the daughter of George Church and Mary Elizabeth Meyers.
In relation to the criminal record of George Church, which one are you referring to, George William b 1850 in Adelaide? I did come across a number of records attributatable to either George or George William at various times but at the time didn't think they were relevant. If you have any references to hand I'd be grateful for them.
Thanks
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Attachments were too large. Will post them separately.
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I can't attach the Church/Moore and Church/Rule marriage certificates as even if zipped and sent separately they exceed 500KB.
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Church marriage certificates reduced size.
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(although this name appears to have been written by a different hand to the other writing on the certificate)
I do not agree with you there.
Sue
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Item deleted
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Ernestine Reiman Beer Meyer was the mother of Mary Elizabeth who married George Church. They had 11 children and then I 'lost'George Church. Mary Elizabeth (Lizzie) then married Arthur Rickard on 23 Jan 1895 in Fitzroy and stated she was a widow. She then married Alan Barr on 11 Jan 1900 in Qld, She died on 14 Feb 1926 in Paddington NSW. She had a dau Elizabeth called Lilly who married Robert Urquhart and also a dau called Ernestina born 1880 in Warragul. I picked up your thread when I just joined Rootschat. I believe your Ernestina is the one born in Warragul. Another dau Ellen Ethel married a Grant and died in Hurstville NSW in 1958. She married on 27 Dec 1900 in Rockhampton. Son Isaac married Catherine Redd4n in Qld on 27 May 1910. Son Leo died in Richmond Vic aged one. I don't have details on any of the other boys. Lizzie had a son with Alan Barr called Alan born in 1905. Hope this helps.
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Mary Elizabeth and George William Church were my great grandparents and I've managed to gather a fair amount of info about their branch of my family tree. However I haven't come across Arthur Rickard to date and would appreciate any further info or certificates. I'd be happy to provide related info I have or answer any Q's - e.g.
George sailed to WA in 1893 one year after the infant death of Leo Harold. He remarried and died in 1937.
His 16 year old daughter Ernestina followed him to WA in 1896, married and started her own dynasty.
Thanks
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The marriage to Arthur Rickard is marriage cert #1209 Vic indexe. On the certificate Mary Elizabeth went by the name Lizzie and stated she was a widow with 3 living and 2 deceased children - a long way from the 11 she actually had. When she died her death certificate #002132 NSW was completed by her son Samuel Trangot Church. He listed the children as Lilly aged 52 (This was Elizabeth who had a tragic early life), Isaac aged 50, Annie S (who led a very interesting life) aged 48, Ellen aged 42 and Samuel aged 36. Three males and one female deceased. This only adds to 9 children. Also, the second marriage has been left out altogether. I am very happy to share info however I haven't mastered the art of adding attachments to my messages and I don't have a scanner. Since the first post I have discovered that Samuel Trangot was living in Townsville in 1953 with his 2nd wife Dulcie, George W died in WW1, Allan Barr, step-brother was married in Mayfield NSW in 1930 to Edna Miller and Isaac & his wife Kate Redden had two daughters in Queensland by 1912. This leaves George Jacob, born 1872 and William James 1879 as the two that were most likely missed by Samuel when he completed the death certificate information.
I have no idea why George and Mary Eliz separated, haven't found out what happened to Mr Rickard however Allan Barr went to prison for 3 years in 1911 for shooting Mary Elizabeth in Townsville. The reports of this sorry saga are on Trove newspaper indexes. Anna Sabine or Hannah Sabina Lowe or Stagg as she was sometimes known is also in Trove for running a brothel in Townsville. My husband is descended from Wilhelm and Ernestine. Let me know if I can be of further help. How many children did Daniel and Ernestine have?
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I’m not sure if anyone will receive notification of this comment as it is now 2025 & I am not even sure if this forum is still active.
I have a fair bit of information on Jane Church (born Jane Neville, married Thomas Moore in 1891 - he passed away in 1894)
Jane marries George Church in Pinjarra in 1903
I am keen to chat to anyone with more info
Jane is my great-great grandmother
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Based on his shipping record, it looks as though George went to Western Australia in 1893 to intending to be a miner. Perhaps he hoped to make his fortune and return, but it never eventuated?
https://www.ancestry.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1684/images/31730_222258-00289?pId=1928191
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I have seen errors on BDM transcriptions. I wonder if this might be the birth of Elizabeth in 1872? The births of the other children were registered.
https://www.ancestry.com.au/search/collections/1778/records/1214380?tid=&pid=&queryId=19a86c7e-0dc1-4e34-a17f-8c4c8d381a97&_phsrc=kSP5754&_phstart=successSource
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Deleted
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Hi Ian
Thank you
Jane Neville is my great-great grandmother. I appreciate the links
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Based on his shipping record, it looks as though George went to Western Australia in 1893 to intending to be a miner. Perhaps he hoped to make his fortune and return, but it never eventuated?
https://www.ancestry.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1684/images/31730_222258-00289?pId=1928191