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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Kollies on Sunday 01 January 12 12:04 GMT (UK)
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Hi and happy new year,
I was wondering if anybody would be able to help me translate the writings from the marriage document of my great grandparents? All of the other marriages on the page don't have an additional inscription, so I'm assuming it will give some extra information.
Here is the link to the picture http://ow.ly/i/oPul
Any help is greatly appreciated.
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Obt (?Obtain) desp ?post de impedimento
of impediment
mixtae Relgionis post matrimonium
mixed religion after marriage
coram ministro ?catholico
before catholic minister
vittentatum fuit
?
That's a start
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Hello,
The inscription seems to indicate [as Latin never translates verbatim to English and even my explanation is clumsy] that the marriage was discharged [not sanctified] for reasons of perplexity after the attempted marriage before a Catholic minister, on the basis of an impediment to the marriage in the Catholic church of the mixed religion of the parties.
Hope this helps.
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"obtained Apostolic dispensation concerning the impediment of mixed religion after marriage in the presence of a Catholic priest was attested." It sounds to me as though an irregularity was being corrected post marriage, but I may well be wrong, claytonbradley
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Was the marriage was eventually completed? If so, then perhaps the correct interpretation lies somewhere between our two takes on it.
The first three abbreviated words hold the key and generally "obt." is Latin abbreviation of obitum indicating the death of the subject, or in this case the discharge or failure of some aspect of the marriage.
My knowledge of Catholic marriage both in Europe and North America would suggest that perhaps, the notation is indicating that the marriage proceeded but only after and upon the necessity of obtaining the dispensation from the Apostolic which would overrule or negate the impediment to the marriage. In Europe a mixed marriage would not likely be sanctioned. In North America a mixed marriage would be sanctioned only after assurances had been made to the Priest that the children of the marriage would be raised Catholic and the spouse would be permitted to follow the Catholic religion and teachings. In either case, it is my understanding that if there is an impediment to a Catholic marriage, that impediment must be removed or otherwise satisfied - discharged - before the marriage was permitted to proceed.
As I cannot determine what country this entry relates to I cannot say anything more precise.
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As I cannot determine what country this entry relates to I cannot say anything more precise.
If the green band across the top of the image is to be believed then it is England
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The green band wasn't visible when I first viewed it.
The green band is certainly helpful. But I still am not certain if the rules of marriage were as strictly adhered to in Britain as they were in Italy, Germany or French Canada whereby dispensation had to be obtained before any marriage could be entered into.
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By coincidence, this question has just been answered by Jim Lancaster on another forum. He says that the Catholic Church issued a document in 1908 called "ne temere" regularising marriage practices because the way things were done had become very confused. The problem is that in England from 1754 till the start of civil registration Catholics had to marry in the Church of England in order to have a legal marriage. Some Catholics had two marriages and some didn't. claytonbradley
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Yes, Lord Hardwicke's Act (1753 - (citation 26 Geo. II. c. 33)) certainly did make things that were already difficult for non-conformists and papists that much more difficult. I have long suspected that English Catholics continued to go through their own marriage rite after the C of E marriage had taken place, barring RC marriage on the continent or in Scotland.
Have you found a C of E as well as RC marriage for your fellow? If so, which one came first?
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Abraham Broadley was married in 1722 at Church Kirk, near Accrington in Lancashire. That was an Anglican marriage. I am sure he would also have had a Catholic marriage at the chapel at Dunkenhalgh Hall, but I don't know in what order they took place. He was employed by Lady Catherine Wamesley/ Petre/Stourton as a carter on the estate. claytonbradley