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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: LibHastings on Tuesday 20 December 11 08:37 GMT (UK)
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Hi list,
Would someone please decipher the attached place name in Angusshire? I thought it was Lassy/Lasey/Casey but can't find it on Google when I go looking for it. Can you also tell me whereabouts in Angus it is? Is it far from Alyth, Perthshire?
Also, where would be the best place to search (online) for their marriage? I think they were married c1835, and I'm guessing in her county :-\ Her maiden name was likely NICHOL.
Many thanks in advance.
Libby
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I am stumped! It doesn't look like any town, village or parish that springs to mind in the county of Angus (I cannot bear to write it as 'incorrectly' as it is in the original. Angus is, by definition, a county, so the compound version is tautological and grates on my sensibilities :'().
The best place to look for their marriage is the International Genealogical Index; it is a superb finding aid, but it is an index, not a primary source. The best place to find it is Scotland's People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, which is the only place where you can view and download a digital image of the original document.
The only marriage in the IGI that fits the bill is John Galletly to Margaret Binny Webster, which is recorded in both Forfar and Kirriemuir on 9 July 1837. There are also marriages of John Gellatlys to Margaret Howell in 1815, Margaret Robertson in 1829 and Margaret Christie in 1845.
You may be able to eliminate Margaret Binny Webster because she had at least two children in Scotland, David in 1841 and Betsy in 1849.
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It doesn't look a whole lot like it, but could the mystery placename be Cray?
http://www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/gazplace?CCC=ANS,GR=NO140630,PLACE=CRAY,ID=99226
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Hmmm.
Cray is not a town, or even a village. It is a (disused former Free*) church and maybe three or four houses.
See http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NO1463
However it is not in Angus; it is in Perthshire, in the parish of Kirkmichael. Admittedly within a mile of the boundaries of the parish of Alyth to the south, and the parish of Glenisla, which is in Angus, to the east.
*The Free Church came into existence in 1843 so don't let anyone suggest to you that the apparently missing marriage record in about 1835 might be in the Free Church records!
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First letter looks like an l (ell)
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Could it be an interpretation of someone saying Eassie?
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Could it be an interpretation of someone saying Eassie?
The first letter does look very similar to the 'E' of Elizabeth, so 'Easey' looks promising. :)
Added:
Sorry all, was late when I posted and I didn't read the entry correctly - mistakenly saw Alyth as abbreviated form of Elizth ... oops. But whatever the words, the first letter may be the same in both.
Just ignore me ....
...I'll get me coat ... :-[
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It doesn't look anything like Eassie, but you could well be right. I'd never have dreamed that that could be an 'E'! (I can't see the 'Elizabeth'.)
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It doesn't look anything like Eassie, but you could well be right. I'd never have dreamed that that could be an 'E'! (I can't see the 'Elizabeth'.)
I'm trying to imagine someone saying it to someone who doesn't know it...it looks like it could be 'Issay', or something similar - the more I look, the more the first letter looks like the one in Alyth. Which I now think is written 'Ilyth'.
I know people when I speak to them on the phone get confused between my A's and E's, so it's not that much of a stretch to go from A and E to I...
I have a slight north east accent, but not total Doric or teuchter by any stretch!
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the more I look, the more the first letter looks like the one in Alyth. Which I now think is written 'Ilyth'.
If I'd come across it without its context I'd have read it as Clyth!
I have a slight north east accent, but not total Doric or teuchter by any stretch!
There's a world of a difference between Doric and Teuchter ;-))
For the benefit of those not fortunate enough to reside in Scotland, 'Doric' is the term used to describe the language as spoken in North-East Scotland, that is, Aberdeenshire and adjacent counties. 'Teuchter' is a faintly pejorative term for Highlanders, and especially those from north and west of the A9, which is the road from Perth to Inverness. At least that's my perception of the meanings, and it will probably start an argument a discussion :-)
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See, living in Aiberdeen, anyone from the country is a Teuchter!
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I knew it would prompt an .... er .... difference of opinion ;)
See, living in Aiberdeen, anyone from the country is a Teuchter!
Aye, fairly that, bit a teuchter fae Aiberdeenshire widnae spik Teuchter - (s)he'd spik Doric!
Reverting to standard English, I've had a look at that ultimate authority on the English language, The Oxford English Dictionary, which defines 'teuchter' as 'a Highlander' and cites the following references:
1940 R Garioch, 17 Poems for 6d. "Thir a glaikit* pair o Teuchters, an as Heilant as a peat."
1962 Scotsman 26 January "There is ample evidence that she referred to him as a ‘teuchter’, a word which I understand to mean a country bumpkin."
1977 Times Literary Supplement 9 September "For the inhabitants of Harris are mainly what most Scots call ‘teuchtars’—a word which I had never heard till I had it applied to me by a teacher in a Glasgow school. What is a teuchtar? It is a Lowland Scots imitation of a Gaelic noise, a term of now genial contempt for a crofter or, more generally, for anyone from beyond the Highland line."
1979 R Laidlaw, Lion is Rampant, "I look like the archetypal teuchter, right down to the fur-bearing cheeks."
* 'glaikit' means a bit slow on the uptake, a sandwich or two short of a picnic, or words to that effect.
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Lany, a defunct parish in Perthshire! Glaswegians were much oppressed by teuchter polis!
Skoosh.
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Hi Libby,
I had a look on Scots Origins for John Gellatly,then went to the updated Family Search. Look at page 4! A John Gellatly born about 1813 in Clyth and his wife Margaret , native place of residence Casey, Angusshire, were Bounty Immigrants to NSW in 1837.
Regards,
Jim.
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Jim, is that the same image as in the first post in this thread, or is it a transcription, or a different record altogether?
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I suspect it is a transcription. The 3rd line on the original post seems like a baby born on board which would agree with an immigrant ship.
Jim.
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I suspect it is a transcription.
Yes, that's sort of what I thought. It sounds like a transcription of Lib's original image. The problem is that there is no such place as Casey in Angus, and Clyth is in Caithness, not Perthshire.
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Yes I agree but if Clyth is Alyth,given that this is a shipping document Casey could well be a misinterpretation of Eassie. Like the N East, Angus has it's own accent.
Jim.
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What else do you know about them?
Are you aware of their middle names? his profession? children's first and middle names?
Give us a few extra clues if you have them and you never know :)
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Yes I agree but if Clyth is Alyth,given that this is a shipping document Casey could well be a misinterpretation of Eassie. Like the N East, Angus has it's own accent.
I think we are all singing off the same carol sheet :)
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Thank you all for your submissions. It's a tricky one I know; that's why I asked such a helpful and knowledgeable list!
No middles names that I have confirmed but Margaret's middle name may have been Jessie (or maybe a nickname?). As I said, her maiden name may have been NICHOL, as later on there was a granddaughter with Nichol as a middle name. The daughter born on the voyage was Elizabeth (born April 1837).
The shipping records say John and Margaret sailed from Dundee on 25 March 1837 and arrived in Port Jackson (NSW) on 13 July 1837. John's occupation was a Mason.
On the Friends of Dundee City Archives - 1831-32 Dundee Sassines records http://www.fdca.org.uk/FDCABurghRecords1.html lists:
Gellately John; Mason, Hawkhill, Dundee. Wallace Craigie; south side Crescent Lane; Sassine No 350.
What is/are the Sassines :-\
I also found the following on the Friends of Dundee City Archives but it could pure speculation :-[
Howff Graveyard of Dundee:
Gellatly Alexander, burial 19 Jan 1837; age 1 yr. 4 mths.; born Dundee; Small Pox; Son of John Gelatly, Mason.
Margaret died in March 1880 aged 69; cert says married at age 23;
This gives a marriage around 1834 which fits with the possible birth of the above Alexander. Cert also says there were 2 deceased males and as I only had one, this accounts for the 2nd male!?
Merry Christmas everyone :)
Libby
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What is/are the Sassines :-\
The Sasines are the records of changes of ownership of heritable property (i.e. land and buildings) in Scotland.
See http://www.nas.gov.uk/guides/sasines.asp
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I checked the shipping record to see how other E's and A's were written.
Alyth looks like an E = Elyth
and the place in question could well be Easey (aka Eassie). Nice one Archivos.
Of course, as Archivos also said I'm trying to imagine someone saying it to someone who doesn't know it...
We Aussies are known for slang and writing the way it sounds. No worries, she'll be right mate!! ;D
Libby
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I think the best phonetic spelling of a name I've ever seen was for Strachan. For those of you who are familiar with the sound of the North East, you can imagine what the writer had heard when he wrote Strawchine, with the 'ch' being pronounced as in 'loch'...
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Strachan :)
I hear it as just "Strawn". Last time I was passing through I even stopped and asked in the post office, and that's what I was told the residents call it.
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I'll mention the obvious one as no one else has! Have you already investigated the possibility of him being the John Gellatly christened in Alyth in 1812? Parents David Gellatly and Margaret Niving (married Alyth 1806) siblings Ann, 1808, David 1809, William 1816.
Have you contacted Dundee City Archives? They hold records relating to the 'Mason Trade of Dundee, 1659-1960' ... you could ask what they have on Gellatlys? There are other masons of this name with links to Alyth and environs shown on the census records. Email address: archives[replace with 'at' symbol]dundeecity.gov.uk
Re the Sassine record you found for a John Gellatly, mason on Hawkhill ... note that there is a will on Scotland's People for a 'John Gellatly, Mason at Hawkhill, latterly Princes Street, Dundee' from 1864 ... 15 pages ... he was 74 when he died.
There are two other wills for surname Gellatly who were masons, each of 23 pages, Peter, of 1842 in Dundee and William of 1850 in Perth. Might be worth looking at.
By the way, did you notice that one tree on Ancestry gives John's middle name as 'Cuthbert'?
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Thank you to everyone for your input.
Gali, I think I stumbled across the John 'Cuthbert' Gellatly name before, so I will look into this. Thank you for the note on the Sassine records. I will also contact Dundee City Archives after the New Year.
Happy New Year everyone and good hunting.
Libby