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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: redmr2red on Friday 16 December 11 10:12 GMT (UK)

Title: My next Brick Wall [COMPLETED]
Post by: redmr2red on Friday 16 December 11 10:12 GMT (UK)
Merry Christmas, my next brick wall is Hannah Forrester.  She married Stephen Gaffney 19 April 1893 in Strahan, Tasmania. (Reg No. 768/1893) when she was only 16 or 17.  This means she was born around 1876 we think in Scotland.

There are a few Hannah Forrester possibilities on a well known Scotland pay Web Site, but we have discounted them all discovering who each one married, lived and died in Scotland.

It is possible that Hannah Forrester was born in Tasmania of Scottish parents, or even born at sea, but we can’t find that either. I have her marriage, all her children and her death certificate.

What we would like to find is her arrival in Tasmania between 1876 and 1893 and her birth in Scotland or Tasmania.

Cheers, Kevin
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: majm on Friday 16 December 11 10:39 GMT (UK)
Hi there,

Please if poss, consider typing up the info from her marriage certificate (including any mention of who gave consent, names of witnesses, clergy as well as the usual info) and her death certificate (including burial info if available too please).

Some thoughts ...

Have you found any headstone or cemetery info for Hannah?

Have you considered the usual variations to the given name of Hannah?  Have you considered a naming pattern in the names of her children?  This is a good link for giving some likely variations http://www.whatsinaname.net/

Could Forrester have become her surname acquired perhaps when her mother may have married (again perhaps) after Hannah was born?  So have you looked for marriages in Tasmania with the groom's surname of FORRESTER ...

Cheers,  JM

 
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: redmr2red on Friday 16 December 11 11:22 GMT (UK)
Thanks JM, I don't have her marriage certificate as yet. I have a photo of her headstone which just has her name under her husband's, Hannah Gaffney 1876 - 1958 RIP.  Not much help there.

Her death certificate gives a reputed birthplace as Glasgow, Scotland. Age at marriage 16 (a strange thing to have on a death certificate) then just numbers for male 1 and female 5 children and the cause of death. The girls names in order were Mary, Margaret, Hannah, Kathlene, Phyllis.  We think her middle name may have been Mary.

We have considered variations including (H) Anna and Helen which her daughter Hannah used. I will look for a marriage with the groom Forrester in Tasmania, we hadn't thought of that one, thanks.

Kevin
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Friday 16 December 11 11:43 GMT (UK)
Marriage:

GAFFNEY STEPHEN age 23yrs m. FORRESTER HANNAH age 17yrs 19/01/1893 STRAHAN #768/1893 RGD 37

Her death certificate gives a reputed birthplace as Glasgow, Scotland. Age at marriage 16 (a strange thing to have on a death certificate).

Why do you consider this strange?
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: majm on Friday 16 December 11 11:49 GMT (UK)
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html

This link will give you an idea of what to expect on various Aussie BDM certificates ... each state/territory is responsible for their own registrations.

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: majm on Friday 16 December 11 11:58 GMT (UK)
 ;D

Oh Merlin  :) I was also thinking of asking that question  ;)

Anyway Kevin,

There's lots of good family history information on Aussie certificates .... some states even include the equivalent of a burial order  ;D .  I have one particular NSW BDM d.c. where there are four generations of the one family mentioned on it.   The parents of the deceased (including nee name of the mum, all five married surnames (she outlived all her husbands), the deceased, the deceased's marriages and their respective issues, and err... the informant who was named and as is usual, the relationship for the informant to the deceased was noted, so on that occasion it was .....  recorded ....as "eldest grandson". 

Do you need any follow up on those children of Hannah's ? 

Cheers,  JM

Age at marriage 16 (a strange thing to have on a death certificate) then just numbers for male 1 and female 5 children and the cause of death. The girls names in order were Mary, Margaret, Hannah, Kathlene, Phyllis.  We think her middle name may have been Mary.
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 16 December 11 12:11 GMT (UK)
Some Australian d/c's ask how long the person lived in Australia if they weren't born there. This can be helpful in narrowing down a year of immigration.
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Friday 16 December 11 13:11 GMT (UK)
then just numbers for male 1 and female 5 children and the cause of death. The girls names in order were Mary, Margaret, Hannah, Kathlene, Phyllis.  We think her middle name may have been Mary.

Obviously her death certificate is incorrect about the children as there were two sons  ::)

GAFFNEY Stephen b. 16/06/1898 - LYELL #1128
GAFFNEY Desmond Acquin b. 07/03/1915 - Augusta Road, HOBART #464

Only one of the seven birth registrations shows a middle name of Mary for Hannah.

Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: redmr2red on Friday 16 December 11 22:16 GMT (UK)
Thanks Merlin, I just thought it was a funny question to ask on a death certificate. I know all questions can be helpful. I guess I was just imaging some grieving rleative being asked all these question and saying "What does it matter how old she was when she got married".   ;D  ;D  ;D

The death certificate is correct 1 living male, the other Stephen died aged 10 he is on the death certificate as 1 not living male. It would be nice to know how he died, but that will be found when his death certificate arrives.

Thanks again JM, I have all I need on her children, and her life after marriage, it is only the arrival in Tasmania and her birth in Scotland that I cannot crack.

Kevin
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: johngirl on Friday 16 December 11 23:19 GMT (UK)
Hi Kevin,

Not sure if this will help but if you contact the Queenstown Library here in Tasmania they may know where there is information available on family`s who resided on the West Coast of Tasmania in the early days.A friend of mine her family lived at Zeehan in the late eighteen hundreds and when she visited Queenstown searching for information about her family a lady kindly found information for her on her ancestors.I`m sure it was from the Queenstown Library but as the lady has now passed on I can`t ask her. :'(

The link for the Queenstown Library and online centre is below.Hope they may be able to help you. :)

http://www.tco.asn.au/oac/home.cgi?oacID=18


   Johngirl
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: redmr2red on Saturday 17 December 11 00:19 GMT (UK)
Thanks Johngirl, I'll follow that up.  On a popular Web Site I've found a Mr Forrester and a Miss Forrester arriving in Hobart, Tasmania 16 April 1885 aboard the Manapouri, which fits nicely,   :)  but not yet proven.

I'm having problems logging onto Assisted and Unassisted Shipping Arrivals to Victoria. Is that site down?

Kevin
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: andycand on Saturday 17 December 11 01:24 GMT (UK)
Hi

This is rather speculative but a lot of things do fit.

A FORRESTER family arrived in Melbourne on the Loch Lomond

Charles age 34
Mary  age 30
Annie age 11
Charles age 9

FORRESTER is not a very common surname in Tasmania but there is a death of a Charles FORRESTER age 36 in 1890 in Mersey, Tasmania which could be Charles senior, and there is a marriage for a Charles FORRESTER in Tasmania in 1901 that could be Charles junior

Hannahs first daughter is Mary Catherine, Catherine I think may have been the name of Stephens mother so Mary could be the name of Hannahs mother. Annie is often interchangeable with Hannah, the age on the passenger list is about 1 year out but that is not unusual

Given the age of the children the family should have been on the 1881 Scottish census but I couldn't find a likely family. I did however find a Charles FORRESTER senior and junior in the same household, Charles senior was the head of household, he had 3 younger sisters and a nephew Charles junior whose mother was probably one of the sisters.

There is also a marriage in Glasgow in 1881 between a Charles FORRESTER and Mary JEFFREY and in the 1881 Galsgow census there is a Mary JEFFREY age 23 with a daughter Hannah JEFFREY age 4. I'm wondering if the FORRESTER family who arrived in Melbourne in 1889 were in fact Charles and Mary FORRESTER (nee JEFFREY) with Mary's daughter Hannah and Charles nephew, Charles junior.

Whilst it is pure speculation the ages fit quite well, Charles junior being raised by a now married uncle would not be unusual nor would a young girl taking her step fathers surname. This would also explain why you can't find a birth for Hannah as FORRESTER would not have been her birth name.
 
Andy
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: redmr2red on Saturday 17 December 11 01:41 GMT (UK)
Wow Andy, that certainly is "coincidental" and everything fits!!!  What we need now is why Mr Forrester and Miss Forrester went to Tasmania without the rest of the family.  Did Mary (mother) and Charles (9) die in Melbourne?

While it will be difficult to prove, it does explain why no birth record can be found for Hannah Forrester.

It'll take a bit for that to settle in.   :)  Thanks Andy.

There is also one birth record in Tasmania where Hannah (as the mother) gives her name as Hannah Mary.

Kevin
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: wivenhoe on Saturday 17 December 11 01:47 GMT (UK)


There is a will for Mary Forrester, d. 16 Dec 1901, Gormanston, that mentions Hannah Gaffney. Beneficiary is William Grieve.

Mary is described as victualler.

http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=9

Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Saturday 17 December 11 02:12 GMT (UK)
Thanks Merlin, I just thought it was a funny question to ask on a death certificate. I know all questions can be helpful. I guess I was just imaging some grieving rleative being asked all these question and saying "What does it matter how old she was when she got married".   ;D  ;D  ;D


So far I have been informant on five death certificates male and female, the first in 1964 and the latest being 2006 and I was asked this question on each one of them when filling out the forms. Just thought you'd like to know  :)
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: wivenhoe on Saturday 17 December 11 02:14 GMT (UK)



Death Notice North Western Advocate and Emu Bay Times 18 Dec 1901 has Mary, daughter of late Charles Forrester,  d. Launceston, 42yrs
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: andycand on Saturday 17 December 11 02:30 GMT (UK)



Death Notice North Western Advocate and Emu Bay Times 18 Dec 1901 has Mary, daughter of late Charles Forrester,  d. Launceston, 42yrs

Does it definitely say daughter? Her age fits with Charles widow.

Andy
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Saturday 17 December 11 02:55 GMT (UK)
Death reg shows this:

FORRESTER Mary d. 16/12/1901 - Balfour Street, LAUNCESTON #325
Father/Spouse Surname:
Mother/Spouse Given Names:

The notice does say 'daughter':

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0iit/


Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: andycand on Saturday 17 December 11 03:18 GMT (UK)
Hi

Does the Charles FORRESTER death in 1890 have any useful information?

I found the newspaper report of Marys death and it does say daughter of Charles FORRESTER, this now confuses things because according to the will there is a definite connection between Mary FORRESTER and Hannah GAFFNEY but to fit my theory the notice should have said Relict or widow.

Andy
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: redmr2red on Saturday 17 December 11 03:30 GMT (UK)
I am AMAZED by all this information.    :)   Thankyou all.  You have all added so much to the information we had, and it is now starting to fall into place. 

Andy, I will add Charles Forrester to my tree, thank for that information. Aslo I think I can accept "daughter" as either a typo, missprint or wrong information given.  It wouldn't be the first time.

Don't stop ..... I'm enjoying this brick wall tumbling!!!!   ;D  ;D  ;D

Kevin
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Saturday 17 December 11 03:33 GMT (UK)
Does the Charles FORRESTER death in 1890 have any useful information?

Nope  :(

FORRESTER CHARLES age 36yrs d. 03/10/1890 MERSEY #943/1890 RGD 35
Father/Spouse Surname:
Mother/Spouse Given Names:



Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Saturday 17 December 11 03:38 GMT (UK)
There is a Will for Charles FORRESTER you might like to read just in case there is further information - 1891 AD961/1/7 708 1621

http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=9
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: andycand on Saturday 17 December 11 04:06 GMT (UK)
I am AMAZED by all this information. :) Thankyou all. You have all added so much to the information we had, and it is now starting to fall into place.

Andy, I will add Charles Forrester to my tree, thank for that information. Aslo I think I can accept "daughter" as either a typo, missprint or wrong information given. It wouldn't be the first time.

Don't stop ..... I'm enjoying this brick wall tumbling!!!! ;D ;D ;D

Kevin

Hi Kevin

Don't add Charles FORRESTER to your tree yet, there is certainly quite a bit of circumstantial evidence but no solid proof of who Hannah FORRESTER was.

Some more circumstantial evidence,  in the 1881 Scottish census Charles FORRESTER was a Spirit Dealers Shopman, the Charles FORRESTER who died in 1890 was a Brewer and the Mary FORRESTER who died in 1901 was a Licensed Victualler, all occupations that have a connection. If anyone has access to the passenger list for the Loch Lomond in 1889 it would be interesting to see what the occupation of Charles FORRESTER was.

Andy
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: redmr2red on Sunday 18 December 11 01:31 GMT (UK)
Quote
This is rather speculative but a lot of things do fit.
A FORRESTER family arrived in Melbourne on the Loch Lomond
Charles age 34
Mary  age 30
Annie age 11
Charles age 9

Thanks Andy, I now have this family leaving Melbourne almost immediately (arrived Melbourne April 1889) left Melbourne April 1889 aboard the TE ANAU for NZ via Hobart.
Mr Forrester age 40
Mrs Forrester age 31
Miss Forrester age 9
Master Morrester age 11

The ages are a bit different but I'm now convinced this, and the mention of Hannah Gaffney in Mary Forrester's Will, that we have the right family arriving in Tasmania.

Now to find the Forrester/Jeffrey marriage record in Scotland and the birth record for Hannah Jeffrey, thanks again Andy.  I wonder if Mary was married to a Mr Jeffrey and had a different maiden name???

Cheers, Kevin
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: andycand on Sunday 18 December 11 01:57 GMT (UK)
Quote
Now to find the Forrester/Jeffrey marriage record in Scotland and the birth record for Hannah Jeffrey, thanks again Andy.  I wonder if Mary was married to a Mr Jeffrey and had a different maiden name???

Hi

You will find the marriage on http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ It is a pay-per-view website, if you search in the Statutory Marriages for Charles Forrester to Mary Jeffrey in 1881 you will get 1 match, download the image which should name both sets of parents.

Go to Statutory Births to look for Hannahs birth, search for Hannah Jeffrey in 1876, you will find 2 matches both in Glasgow, it is 50/50 as which to try but one should be your Hannah.

Marys marriage registration should indicate whether Jeffrey is her maiden name and Hannahs birth registration will also indicate whether illigitimate or not.

Andy
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 18 December 11 02:22 GMT (UK)



In Victoria -
Will.... 1 Apr 1874 death of Charles Forrester, licensed Victualler
Executors Thomas B Guest, Wm H Cutts, Margaret Forrester, widow.

Argus 2 Apr 1874 at his residence, The Metropole Hotel, Charles Forrester, 61yrs.
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Sunday 18 December 11 02:32 GMT (UK)
In Victoria -
Will.... 1 Apr 1874 death of Charles Forrester, licensed Victualler
Executors Thomas B Guest, Wm H Cutts, Margaret Forrester, widow.
Argus 2 Apr 1874 at his residence, The Metropole Hotel, Charles Forrester, 61yrs.

Death reg:

FORRESTER Charles (born STIR) d. age 61yrs 1874 #5717
Father: John
Mother: Janet MAIN



Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: andycand on Sunday 18 December 11 03:05 GMT (UK)
In Victoria -
Will.... 1 Apr 1874 death of Charles Forrester, licensed Victualler
Executors Thomas B Guest, Wm H Cutts, Margaret Forrester, widow.
Argus 2 Apr 1874 at his residence, The Metropole Hotel, Charles Forrester, 61yrs.

Death reg:

FORRESTER Charles (born STIR) d. age 61yrs 1874 #5717
Father: John
Mother: Janet MAIN





The closest birth I can find is Charles FORRESTER christened 04 JUN 1809   Kincardine By Doune, Perthshire, Scotland  father John FORRESTER, mother Janet BAIN  This is sourced from Familysearch IGI extracted from the parish Register. Kincardine By Doune is on the border with Stirlingshire

This Charles could well be related to the Charles FORRESTER who emigrated on the Loch Lomond whose father is probably Robert FORRESTER.

Andy


Title: Re: My next Brick Wall
Post by: redmr2red on Sunday 18 December 11 03:21 GMT (UK)
My last reply got timed out   >:(

I would think this Charles Forrester Snr. might be related too Andy, our Charles Forrester Jnr.'s uncle perhaps. It is interesting that he is Licensed Victualler, another coincidence.  And perhap out Forrester family stopped in Melbourne in their way to Hobart, Tasmania to either pay their respects or finalise family business ........ 15 years later hmmmm!!!!!  Who knows!!!

This has been a very entertaining and rewarding weekend, thanks everyone!!!!   ;D

Kevin
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall [COMPLETED]
Post by: possum b on Monday 07 March 16 03:39 GMT (UK)
l am to doing "Forrester" family tree from tasmania, my link starts with Charles Mercy who married Mabel Mildred Nichols in 1901, they have at least 7 children.

l wld like 2 find a reliable govt site that has data 4 the BDM 4 Tasmania
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall [COMPLETED]
Post by: Dundee on Monday 07 March 16 05:56 GMT (UK)
BDM indexes for Tasmania are not online for events from 1900 onwards, you need to look at the indexes available on CD.  They should be in your local library if you are in Australia or you can ask on the Australia board as many have their own resources. (Births go to 1919, Marriages and Deaths to 1930.)

Events prior to 1900 are indexed with digitial images on the Tas Archives website:

https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/

Debra  :)
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall [COMPLETED]
Post by: possum b on Monday 07 March 16 07:45 GMT (UK)
no, lm not in aussie which is why its that bit harder. alas why lve made link here and on another site
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall [COMPLETED]
Post by: cando on Monday 07 March 16 09:00 GMT (UK)
Children born to Charles FORRESTER and Mabel Mildred NICHOLS

FORRESTER Myrtle Grace  22 Jun 1902  Queenstown  Ref#2972
FORRESTER Ivy Mabel  22 Jun 1902  Queenstown  Ref#2993
FORRESTER Clyde Henry  23 May 1904  Ulverstone  Ref#4643
FORRESTER Hubert Charles 11 Sep 1905  Ulverstone  Reg#4691
FORRESTER Reginald Clifford  21 Apr 1907  Ulvertone  Reg#3396
FORRESTER Jean Marie  27 Nov 1908  Kings Meadows  Reg#1516
FORRESTER Emma May  1 May 1912  4 South Street, Launceston  Reg#1935

Some of the family buried here
http://www.launceston.tas.gov.au/lcc/index.php?c=30

Cando
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall [COMPLETED]
Post by: possum b on Monday 07 March 16 22:54 GMT (UK)
(((hugs)))) thank Cando
Florence (Jean) Forrester.... named and l have her at 1904 from family bible

May Emma (Peggy) Forrester ... named

Reginald Rivers Forrester ... can you find this 1, he fits in some where
Title: Re: My next Brick Wall [COMPLETED]
Post by: possum b on Monday 07 March 16 23:19 GMT (UK)
great link 2 TY
found reg 2 :)