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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: woodydog on Tuesday 10 May 05 14:10 BST (UK)
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Hello- is anyone resaerching this family?
I have letters from Alfred Settle to his wife Mary dated between 1858 & 1861 from America (includes some detail on the civil war). These have been passed down through my step nans (Bertha Smith) family. Along with wife mary names mentioned are Luke, Arthur,James & Romeo (sons of Alfred & mary) Alfreds mother Fanny, Aunt Martha & son James, brother George & brother William. I've managed to find some of the above on the 1861 census but if anyone has any info on the family when Alfred was with them in 1851 I'd love to hear from you- I believe that he stayed in America somewhere around Philedelphia. I'm more than willing to share the transcribed letters with anyone who can confirm a connection to the family.
All the best
Rose
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I'd suugest trying the online indexes at www.familyhistoryonline.net for your Settle family. (pay-per-view)
The Calderdale( halifax) and Kirklees databases (huddersfield) should have just about all that area covered.
Pauline
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Hi
Just curious as you mention Civil War, do you think this could be some info on him
Name: Alfred Settle ,
Enlistment Date: 15 October 1861
Distinguished Service: DISTINGUISHED SERVICE
Side Served: Confederacy
State Served: Kentucky
Unit Numbers: 1900
Service Record: Enlisted as a Private on 15 October 1861
Enlisted in Company E, 6th Infantry Regiment Kentucky on 15 October 1861.
Wendy
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Hi Wendy & thanks for your reply- I really seem to be getting nowhere with finding him either in the States or returning to England so this Alfred could be a possibility.We have about 7 letters that he sent to his wife, all of them are pretty emotional & a very interesting piece of social history. He obviously left to make a better life for him & his family, (he mentions them joining him often but it would appear that they never did).It's only in his last letter that he mentions the war by describing a company of soldiers being in the town were he was (somewhere in Penn State- I forget where offhand as I've returned the letters to my mum for safekeeping) I even have the date that he arrived in New York & I've searched ancestry & the Ellis Island site but haven't been able to find him. I would like to share the letters with someone after all his family cared enough to pass them down through the generations for nearly 150 years. If you have any ideas on how to trace ancestors in the US I'd be very grateful (I'm not too hot on it !!)
Thanks again , I'll keep this information safe & try to follow it up.
Rose
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Hello woodydog
In researching my Sykes ancestry there is mention of a Luke Settle. I have found him on the 1841 and 1851 censuses living at Slead Syke in Brighouse. Although this Luke is no relation to me he is famous in the local area (Brighouse/Huddersfield) for being the man who helped my ancestor Susanna Sykes, later Mrs Susan Sunderland, in her career as a famous soprano.
In 1841 he is shown as aged 60. In the household are: Jubal, 20; Alfred 7; Martha 20; Jonathan Oldfield 15. Luke's profession is 'Whitesmith'. On the 1851 he is shown as aged 61 and only Jubal remains in the household.
If the above is of any interest let me know.
Lindyboo
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Hi Lindyboo- any information is most welcome but the Luke that you have isn't actually the Luke I have written about in the letters- however the Luke you have could possibly be either the father or possibly a brother of Alfred.(she says very hopefully!!) Do you have access to the 1851 & 1841 census for the Hipperholme / Brighouse area? If you do could I possibly beg a very large favour- could you do a search for Alfred & Mary before Alfred left for America.
If so the few confirmed details I have are as follows
Mary Settle would be 21 years of age & Alfred about the same, Mary was noted as being born in Brighouse (1861) & Hipperholme (1871) their oldest son ( well I think he was the oldest was noted as being born in Brighouse either at the end of 1851 or beginning of 1852 so I believe the family were there then- it would be lovely if you could find them -as I say I have nothing about Alfred being in this country as he left around 1858 so all I have are the letters & without having a reasonable idea of his age it 's very difficult to get anywhere further.
I'll keep my fingers crossed but I know how long it can take to search the older census's so no worries if you can't.
Rose
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Hello Rose
I'll be glad to examine the 1841 and 1851, but I wonder if you could give me a bit more detail - assuming you have any, of course. You mention that you've found entries on the 1861 and 1871. If you have addresses from those they'll be helpful in narrowing my search.
Thanks
Lindy
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Thanks Lindy- I'm really struggling to find Alfred anywhere!!
1861 details are
Living at Waterloo (no number noted) - Hipperholme cum Brighouse
Mary Settle Boarder in the house of Fanny Smith (possibly a relative?!)age 31 - no occupation noted but noted as married
with sons James age 9, Arthur age 7 ,Luke age 5, all noted as born in Brighouse.
In 1871 living at Kew or New Street, Hipperholme cum Brighouse.
Mary Settle age 41 born Hipperholme- again no occupation, with James 19, Arthur age 15!, Luke 14 years & Mary Ellen 5 years all born Brighouse.
Obviously Mary Ellen was born after Alfred left but who could blame Mary after being left for at least 13 years ! In the letters there is mention of a boy being born circa 1859 who was named Romeo Settle because of his fathers wanderlust he died around 1861 from the dates of his fathers letters .. Alfred mentions " our mother Fanny" & brother George, brother William & sister Betty in his letters as well but whether these are Alfred's or Mary's relatives I can't be sure- but the letters have been handed down through the Smith Family so I'm hoping that Fanny on the census might be a relative even though Mary is noted as a boarder.
I know it took 7 weeks for Alfred to get to America ( with some kind of mutiny on board his ship!) & he landed at Castle gardens,New York & he stayed in New york for the Tuesday night (the 14th September 1858) but can I find him on any ships passenger list- can I ecky thump!!!! I feel I know the man but can't find him anywhere- I also know he left due to some kind of big"trouble" which included the payment of a "Leeds loan" & debts to other members of the family- to be truthful he was a bit self pitying beggar!!!!!
I don't have children myself & would dearly love to one day hand these letters to someone else who would care for them as much as they have been cared about for the past 150 years-I've written to museums in Philidelphia & roundabouts and heard nothing so it looks like the obvious thing to do is hand them over to Calderdale Archives or museums service but I'd much rather hand them to a family member- in every letter he ends by saying "take care of all letters"- I feel it's the least I can do as I can't send him a copy of the Halifax Guardian (which he also asks for !!!!)
Thank you!
Rose
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Hi
1851 census - posting this just incase the Smiths do turn out to be related the Settle family
Sorry to tag on but I believe this is Fanny Smith (from the 1861) and her children with her father present Mr Richardson
Township Hipperholme cum Brighouse Address Waterloo Name Smith Ellen Status – Rel Dau gender Female Age 9 Occupation Scholar Place of Birth Lightcliffe County Yks deaf – Piece 2297 ED 2g Schedule 123 Folio 388
Township Hipperholme cum Brighouse Address Waterloo Name Smith Fanny Status W Rel Head gender Female Age 51 Occupation Charwoman Place of Birth Rastrick County Yks deaf – Piece 2297 ED 2g Schedule 123 Folio 388
Township Hipperholme cum Brighouse Address Waterloo Name Smith Susy Status U Rel Dau gender Female Age 19 Occupation Factory Girl Place of Birth Lightcliffe County Yks deaf – Piece 2297 ED 2g Schedule 123 Folio 388
Township Hipperholme cum Brighouse Address Waterloo Name Smith Hannah Status – Rel Dau gender Female Age 11 Occupation Factory Girl Place of Birth Lightcliffe County Yks deaf – Piece 2297 ED 2g Schedule 123 Folio 388
Township Hipperholme cum Brighouse Address Waterloo Name Smith Sarah Status – Rel Dau gender Female Age 13 Occupation Factory Girl Place of Birth Lightcliffe County Yks deaf – Piece 2297 ED 2g Schedule 123 Folio 388
Township Hipperholme cum Brighouse Address Waterloo Name Richardson John Status – Rel Father gender Male Age 81 Occupation Hand Loom Weaver Place of Birth Rastrick County Yks deaf – Piece 2297 ED 2g Schedule 123 Folio 388
Township Hipperholme cum Brighouse Address Waterloo Name Smith Betty Status – Rel Dau gender Female Age 14 Occupation Factory Girl Place of Birth Lightcliffe County Yks deaf – Piece 2297 ED 2g Schedule 123 Folio 388
Wendy
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Hi Rose
Wendy has just sent you the info on the 1851 - pipped me at the post there! However, as you see, there are no Settles listed.
On the IGI I have found a reference to an Alfred Settle baptized 1831 in Rastrick to Ann Settle, who presumably was unmarried. She may be - looking at the IGI which of course must be checked against the actual entries - the daughter of Luke Settle. She was baptized in Lightcliffe in 1812.
I'll dig a bit more and let you know if I find anything. So far however, nothing has shown on the 1851 - I had a look on 'familyhistoryonline' as you may have already done and no Alfred Settle is listed in Hx for that census. I also checked the index for Hipperholme-cum-Brighouse and the only Settles listed, in addition to Luke and Jubal as previously mentioned are: Bathsheba 39; Hannah 41; Joseph 47; Sarah 34.
Lindy
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Hi Rose
I think we have a result and a connection. On re-examining the 1841 entry for Luke Settle at Slead Syke, Brighouse, I find in the household Alfred, age 9 - not 7 as previously said. His mother is not listed, but I suspect this must be your man.
If so, it looks as though Ann was Luke's daughter and Alfred was taken to live with his grandfather.
The IGI lists only the one Alfred, as mentioned in my previous reply, bapt 1831, so if it's correct I think it backs up him being Luke's grandson.
Also, if this is the right bod, (assuming you can confirm it to your satisfaction) you might want to give the letters to the Trustees who run the 'Mrs Sunderland Musical Festival' annually in Huddersfield. If you've not heard of it, it's quite prestigious and there is, I believe, a special award in the name of Luke Settle, so I think they'd be thrilled to have the letters you mention. And come to mention it - I'd be glad of copies for my own family history, since Mrs Sunderland and Luke Settle were so closely associated.
Please do get back to me if you think any of the above what you're looking for and I'll give you more info on the Mrs Sunderland angle.
Regards
Lindy
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Wow - lots to take in there! You could be right- well I hope so anyway.
I'll have a really good look through the transcriptions that I made of some of the letters & see if it sheds any further light on the matter- I'll also try to look at the other letters that I never got round to transcribing (they can be very difficult to read with quite a few gaps where folds have been in the paper!)
The Mrs Sunderland music festival- I think my niece took part in that- I picked her up from a music festival that was at the town hall one year- I'll have to check with my sister.
Thank you for all your help so far
Bear with me everyone......
Rose
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Hello everyone - sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you all- I've been waiting to get hold of the letters that I didn't transcribe but my mum & dad are away on holiday so no luck as yet. I keep swinging between "they've got him!" to "ermm, I'm not sure about this!"
I've had a good look through the letters I have & have picked out any relevant bits (if your not bored out of your brains by now!!)
1 Dated 26 Sept 1858- best respects to the family, especially my grandfather-Could be Luke if he lived with him?
2.Son Romeo born 1859 (somewhere around Jan/Feb/March - so he must have been in Yorkshire approx 9 months earlier!!!!
3.Dated Feb 24 1859- Alfred mentions the death of his brother George & also the death of Aunt Marthas son James.
4. dated Feb 24 1859- apologies to brother William for bearing all the blame belonging to the loan & that he will pay him for his trouble going to Leeds
5. dated March 22 1859- saddened to hear that his wife & children had been in the unionhouse & she was getting a shilling per head fro the children but nothing for herself!
6. dated 24 June 1859- ask forgiveness of my mother Fanny
7. dated 6th November 1859- pleased to hear that sister Betty got married (the devil doesn't say who to !!)
Does anyone think that from the 1841 info for Luke Settle at Slead Syke that Jubal & Martha could be married or is it impossible to tell? I ask because I also have the following written in pencil at the front of an old prayer book that also came from my step grandmother.
John Smith born December 15 1792- evening 7pm
Ann Smith born November 29 1824 2pm
Mary Smith born May 24 1821- 2.43(!!) afternoon
Martha Smith born May 29 1826-3.15 afternoon
Samuel Smith born November 27 1829 3. morning
Susy Smith born May 20 1831- 5 afternoon
Mary Smith born June 7 (?) 1776 -morning
Suse Smith born November 26 1778- morning 10 O'clock
Betty Smith born May 25 1781 evening 7pm
Anne Smith born 26 August 1788 -morning 6
Hannah Smith born Dec 25 1786 -evening
Martha Smith born January or July 26 1788 Eve 6
Rachele Smith born Aug 22 1790 evening 9
Could be one & the same Susy!
For now I'll get off & continue to try & sort this all out in my head!!!!!
Rose
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Hello again
Just read your latest posting. I'll have a dig around and see if I can find anything, but in the meantime could you clarify, re the notations in the prayer book, where the Smith children listed may have been born? Hannah Smith, 1786, jumps out at me as this is the same year of birth of the Hannah Smith who married James Sykes, father of Susannah Sykes (later Sunderland), ergo my 4x g/grandmother. I know the name is very common of course, but you never know …
At present I don't think that Jubal was married, since he appears on later census listing still resident with his father and – though I need to double check this – remained unmarried.
Also, at the end of your posting you mention 'this could be one and the same Susy'. Sorry to be dense, but which Susy do you refer to?
Regards
Lindy
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Me again. Re Jubal. Yes, he was married, but not to Martha. He wed Helen Havelock, found on FreeBMD in Jun qtr 1852. On the 1861 he's found as head of household with the following:
Ellen (wife) 36
Luke (father) 83
Isabella Havlock (niece) 8
Lizzy Hannah (niece) 6
The various census and FreeBMD ref's I've been examining frequently throw up some names which are linked to my Sykes family, though I've not yet been able to establish the connections. Wilkinson seems to crop up often as one of the families which may have married into mine and which appears to have married into the Settle family as well. Common name of course and may be only coincidences.
Will keep digging.
Lindy
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You'll be getting fed up with me by now perhaps, but I thought you might be interested in this link http://www.area5.co.uk/holmfirth/historyman/greatwar/crimeanwarveteran.htm
I've also found that Luke Settle (ie, Alfred's son) married a Martha Freeman.
All for now.
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Sorry Lindyboo - I got side tracked by my friends ancestor who had the good grace to be famous by being a policeman & being killed in Manchester in 1867- how much information has come flooding in !!!??
Anyway back to the Setlte/Smiths-
The Susy I refer to is the Susy in Wendy/Winstons posting from the 1851 census which coincides with the pencil scribblings. The reason I ask about Martha & Jubal is because of Alfred refering to an Aunt Martha & vaguely hoping we can tie the Settle's to the Smith's that way- I'm beginning to wonder if Alfred travelled to America as a Smith to avoid whatever he was avoiding!!
I'll go & check out the web link you've given me - TTFN-Rose XX
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Hello everyone- just a little bit of an update on this one!
I've checked the letters again and on close examination there is mention of "brother Jubal & brother George" being sick- there can't be many Jubal Settles floating round Hipperholme can there!so I think you all managed to get the link between Alfred & Luke Settle bang on! I've searched & searched Ellis Island & Castle gardens site & the only vague possibility I can come up with for Alfreds arrival is as follows:
Alfred THORNTON- age 28- miner- arrived 15 Sept 1858- origin England, Liverpool- the reason for this is that from the letters I know that Alfred was travelling with a William Thornton & on the same boat is a Wiiliam Thornton- age 28- farmer, so maybe Alfred travelled under a different surname!
I've also got the connection from my step grandma to Alfred...
His eldest son James had a daughter (Sarah Ellen born 1877) , she married an Arthur Smith in 1907 and they had my step nan- hurrah...
As for finding Alfred in the 1851 census... well I've still had no luck, no luck on a marriage to a Mary unknown, so all I still have is his baptism in Rastrick in 1831(oops forgot the 1841 census- you found that) and then the letters starting in 1858- elusive devil he is!!!!
That's it for now- just thought you all might like to hear about whats gone on after all your wonderful work on tracking the little bleeder!
Thanks again
Woodydog
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HI
since the 1851 came online I have been able to add further names to the household of Fanny Smith as mentioned on page 1 of your posting. the names didn't appear before becasue the site that I first used only list Family names that have been grouped together.
I believe this could be Alfred Settles wife prior to marriage. Mary and her sister who all share the same name are all SINGLE
I believe that Fanny Smith was at one point in her life an ELLIS prior to marrying a SMITH
Emma H Ellis born about 1825 in Lightcliffe Yorkshire
Rachel Ellis born about 1827 ""
Mary Ellis born about 1830 ""
But alas we will have to wait for the release of the 1841 to see for proof if these girls can be found with Fanny or not.
Wendy
P.S Send me aPM if I have lost you you in my ranting
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Hi
And just to confirm there is a marriage of an Alfred Settle in the July to September quarter of 1851 and there is a Mary Ellis on the same page
Here are the Ref is if you want to check it out for yourself
the marriage was in the Halifax area
Vol 22
Pg 137
Wendy
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Thanks very much for that Wendy it gives me another piece of the puzzle-I think this puzzle is along the lines of the 3D empire state building puzzle me & the hubby attempted a few years ago, with that we decided it was far better used as a cat toy after some months of trying!!
How did I miss Alfreds marriage??? I probably put in settle as his firstname !!!!
Can't wait until I get afford some more ancestry credits to try to find the little beggar on the 1851 census- he must be there somewhere, transcribed as something but the last time I looked I couldn't come up with anything much!
Thanks again
Rose
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Hi, I have been researching this family only in the last two months, however I am very excited to see this post ..
Alfred Settle was born 21 June 1831 in Lightcliffe the son of Ann Settle - father unknown.
Ann Settle was the daughter of My 6 x Great Grandfather Luke Settle She went on to marry after the birth of Alfred to Joseph Wilkinson.
Alfred Lived with his grandfather Luke Settle before marrying Mary Ellis and they had 2 children that I am aware of so far before he emigrated leaving them behind (This I believe was because he defaulted on a Leeds Loan amongst other things)
I am heavily involved in researching this family and the letter transcriptions would help enormously in understanding his reasons for leaving ..
Please contact me back if possible I have researched Mary's life after Alfred left and may beable to fill in some of the gaps.
Many Thanks
Becky ... Nee ...Settle
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Hello becksxx
It's been a while since I looked at the Luke Settle stuff, but I've still got transcribed copies of the letters which were kindly sent to me via this thread. If you want to PM me with an e-mail address I'll send you a copy and also a link to my family history site re Mrs Susan Sunderland, with whom Luke Settle's family were closely linked.
Regards
Lindyboo
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Hello Lindyboo
Not wishing to rain on your parade, but Luke Settle was very much a bit player in the development of Susannah Sykes (1819-1905) who became Mrs Sunderland, The Yorkshire Queen of Song.
The early influences on her musical development were associated with Bridge End Chapel - Gilbert Goldthorpe, Henry Broomhead, John Denham, Daniel Holgate Sugden and George Wilkinson. Looking at the dates and the roles of those involved, Luke Settle’s role could only have been peripheral It is a case of being an old mans tale often repeated, but sadly lacking in evidence.
The WYAS(K) contains a letter headed Mrs Sunderland’s early training. Extract- .... I have never heard of Luke Settle until I read it in the slips (newspaper cuttings). This is not correct. It was Mr Broomhead, of Bone Gate Academy, and a Mr Goldthorp, gentleman, both of Brighouse, who first brought her out. Mr Broomhead played the violin at the Independent Chapel, Bridge End and I believe Mr Goldthorp was superintendent in the school there. S was a scholar, and was put into the singing pew, and they noticed she had a good voice agreed to help her. Mr Broomhead had her in his school, and taught her reading, writing, arithmetic and geography. Mr Goldthorp taught her music and singing and as she improved they bought her a piano to practice on at home. ........
In later life Mrs Sunderland attributed her success to the training she received from Daniel Holgate Sugden. He sang with her from 1838 until his death in 1846.
The people of Brighouse donated a trophy for choirs to The Mrs Sunderland Music Festival, which continues to be part of the school choir classes.
The 2019 Festival will celebrate the bicentenary of the birth of Mrs Sunderland.
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Woodydog,
Don't know if you ever got Ancestry or not but here is Mary Settle in the 1841 census showing her truly as a Ellis not Smith as Becky pointed out sometime back - Did you manage to get a copy of Alfred and Mary's marriage cert yet?