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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 06 December 11 09:04 GMT (UK)
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Welcome to this weeks Scavenger Hunt, I do believe you'll have to have your maps handy for this one!!
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
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I would like to have a hunt for the origins of my 3xgt grandparents.
My 3xgt grandmother was Anna Whitup, and she was born around 1823. She most frequently gives her place of birth as Bungay, Suffolk, but also gives a range of other places as well.
When she married my 3xgt grandfather in 1848 (Paston, Norfolk), she gave her father’s name as Robert Whitup (not noted as deceased).
My 3xgt grandfather was James Richardson, bn c. 1824 in Edingthorpe (according to the census returns). The Edingthorpe parish records do not appear to be online, but I have had a look through the Bishop Transcripts on the family search website, and see no record of his christening.
On the 1848 marriage certificate, James gives his father’s name as George Richardson, brickmaker (again, not noted as deceased).
Witnesses to the marriage were Lydia Richardson – assume that she is a relation to James, but haven’t managed to find the link yet, and Charles Remblents who was in the same household as Anna in 1841. What is the connection between the Walpoles/Remblents/Whitups?
I have all the census returns for Anna, and all except 1841 for James.
1901 census RG 13, Piece 1860 Folio 81 page 9 Schedule No 67
Living at Church Street, Hempnall, South Norfolk
James Richardson, Head, 77 Retd Police Constable Born Norfolk Edingtorpe
Anna Richardson, Wife, 77 Born Suffolk Bungay
Flora Richardson, Dau, 43, Dressmaker Born Norfolk Alburgh (sic)
Clara Richardson, Dau, 36, Dressmaker Born Norfolk Carlton Rode
1891 census RG12/1545
Church St, Hempnall
James Richardson H 67 Retd Police Constable Nfk Edingthorpe
Anna Richardson W 67 Nfk Broome
Flora Richardson D 34 Dressmaker Nfk Alburgh
Clara Richardson D 28 Dressmaker Nfk Carlton Rode
1881 Census: Hempnall
James Richardson H 57 Police Constable Nfk Edingthorpe
Anna " W 57 Sfk Bungay
Flora D 24 Dress maker Nfk Alburgh
Clara D 18 " Nfk Carleton Rode
1871 Census: Forncett St Peter
James Richardson H 46 Police Constable Nfk Edingthorpe
Anna " W 46 Dress maker Sfk Bungay
Flora " D 14 " Nfk Alburgh
Walter " S 13 Scholar Nfk Hempnall
Clara " D 8 " Nfk Carleton Rode
1861 Census, Hempnall "street"
James Richardson H 37 Police Officer Nfk Edingthorpe
Anna W 37 Sfk Bungay
Helen D 10 Scholar Nfk North Walsham
Anna D 8 Scholar " "
Alice D 6 " Nfk Alburgh
Flora D 4 " " "
Walter S 3 Nfk Hempnall
1851 Census: "Dog Corner", NOrth Walsham
James RIchardson H 26 Pork butcher Nfk Edingthorpe
Anna W 27 Nfk Pulham
Jane D 2 Nfk North Walsham
Helen D 1mnth Nfk North Walsham
1841 Census: Paston, Norfolk
John Walpole 50 Farmer in county
Patience Walpole 50 in county
Charles Remblent 55 Ag lab in county
Phoebe Remblent 50 in county
Charlotte Remblent 35 in county
Anna Whitup 15 Dressmaker in county
Samuel Morse 70 Ag lab in county
HO107; Piece 784;Folio: 8; Page: 9
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Yay! My hunt is up!
Please guys, help me batter down these brick walls!
I should also add that I have checked on the Norfolk constabulary website to see whether they have any record of James being a police officer. He is not listed on an online database that they provide but I have emailed them with his dates to see if they have any other records that might shed some light on his career.
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bookmarking :)
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the 1851 census shows a George Richardson b. North Walsham lving in Edingthopre however he is not a brickmaker
this is the reference number
HO107; 1808; 537; 10
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i did see that there was a Lydia Richardson wife of William Richardson on the 1851 census she was born Holkham (as was William) and they were living at Wells by the sea
this Lydia died in 1866 and her effects were granted to her daughter Harriet by now Dawson but in 1851 she was still a Richardson and at home with her parents
i am not sure that Lydia is connected as firstly she was born in a different parish and secondly she is a bit older than James nothing conclusive there
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Thank you for the George find - that lead me to look at George Ritchson on the 1841. He is in Edingthorpe, with a son called James (aged 14, so not too far out) and a daughter called Lider........ HO107; Piece 784; Folio: 4; Page: 3
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Lydia A Richardson born Edingthorpe c1827 married a William Sampson, so sister of James?
They are here in 1871.
RG10; Piece: 1778; Folio: 109; Page: 4
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so the full 1851 census for George Richardson is
The Green Edingthorpe
George Richardson head male mar. 51 occupier of 11 acres of land (something) labourer b. North Walsham
M Richardson wife 50 b. Paston Norfolk
G Richardson son 13 at home b. Edingthorpe
T (is has ben transcribed as but i guess it could be a J or an F) Richardson dau 11 at home born do.
E Richardson son 8 at home born do.
Mary Ann Corke dau mar 22 journeryman carpenters wife b. Edingthorpe
Murrell Corke son in law ar 27 journeyman carpenter b. Bradfield
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Thank you for the George find - that lead me to look at George Ritchson on the 1841. He is in Edingthorpe, with a son called James (aged 14, so not too far out) and a daughter called Lider........ HO107; Piece 784; Folio: 4; Page: 3
they had a number of children
full details
George Ritchson 40 farmer
Maryann Ritchson 40
Richard Ritchson 15
James Ritchson 14
Lider Ritchson 10
Maryann Ritchson 9
Sarah Ritchson 8
Emmily Ritchson 6
George Ritchson 3
Thirza Ritchson 1
all BIC
next door but 1 there is an Ann Ritchson 75 Shopkeeper BIC
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You can hear the Norfolk accent in that entry !
'Lider' for Lydia and 'Ritchson' for Richardson !!
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Now, if I can find Thirza's birth reg, I can find out mother's maiden name!
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George and Mary Ann in 1861: RG9; Piece: 1200; Folio: 37; Page: 3
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And George and Mary Ann in 1871 RG10; Piece: 1796; Folio: 39; Page: 7
Mary dies between 1871 and 1881, and George is on his own in 1881 here RG11; Piece: 1921; Folio: 38; Page: 7
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You can hear the Norfolk accent in that entry !
'Lider' for Lydia and 'Ritchson' for Richardson !!
And I wonder why I couldn't find a suitable Lydia - next time I'll put on a thick Norfolk accent!
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There is some connection here between the Whitup family and and Remblents but I haven't been able to find the evidence.. yet..
In the 1841 - Broome, Norfolk HO107/0779
Same Household -
Sally Remblent . 30 Silk Weaver. BIC
Harriet Remblent. 25 Silk Weaver. BIC
John Whitup. 15. Woodman Not BIC
And a couple of doors away
Edward Remblent(s). 30. Woodman. BIC
Rachel Remblent(s) 30. BIC
Emily Remblent(s) 3. BIC
Rachel Remblent(s) 1. BIC
I wonder a brother to Anne maybe ?
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Now that is interesting Captain! Whitup is such an unusual name (as is Remblent!) that having two lots of Whitups living with Remblents must suggest that there is a connection between families.
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I've lost John in the 1851 .. trying to see if I can find where he was born..
But I have found a Harriet Remblent (transcribed Remlants) HO107/1821/F330
aged 53, together with her daughter Cordelia aged 26, lodging in the house of Stephen Hubbard in Diss, Norfolk. Harriet's place of birth -
Bungay , Suffolk
Maybe Harriet was a Whitup from Bungay, Suffolk who married a Remblent..
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Unusual names.. yes and quite a variety of spellings... :) I am currently doing a sweeping search of the 1851 for a John W* Suffolk.. maybe a while before I'm back.......
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Three small bits about silk weaving in Norfolk. It seems to have been almost a dead trade by the time of your ancestor
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0as8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA75&dq=Norfolk+silk+weaving&hl=en&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Norfolk%20silk%20weaving&f=false
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=da3UxqkohkwC&pg=PA68&dq=Norfolk+silk+weaving&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Norfolk%20silk%20weaving&f=false
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=06sJAQAAIAAJ&q=Norfolk+silk+weaving&dq=Norfolk+silk+weaving&hl=en
If their origins a few centuries earlier were Huguenot then it might explain the rather odd surnames...
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There's a public tree on Ancestry which states George Richardson married Mary Ann Grimshaw 6/8/1821 Paston, Norfolk - this would tie in with the birthplace given for Mary on the census i.e. Paston.
George and Mary Ann also had son Edward baptised at Edingthorpe on 20/2/1843 - neither his birth nor Thirza's seem to have been registered so doesn't look like you can purchase a certificate.
Annette
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There's a public tree on Ancestry which states George Richardson married Mary Ann Grimshaw 6/8/1821 Paston, Norfolk - this would tie in with the birthplace given for Mary on the census i.e. Paston.
George and Mary Ann also had son Edward baptised at Edingthorpe on 20/2/1843 - neither his birth nor Thirza's seem to have been registered so doesn't look like you can purchase a certificate.
Annette
If that tree is correct then this looks like Mary Ann's baptism.
Name: Mary Anne Grimshaw
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 27 Aug 1800
Baptism/Christening Place: PASTON,NORFOLK,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 22 Aug 1800
Mother's Name: Susanna Grimshaw
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My goodness Captain, you'll certainly be some time!
Unusual names.. yes and quite a variety of spellings... :) I am currently doing a sweeping search of the 1851 for a John W* Suffolk.. maybe a while before I'm back.......
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There's a public tree on Ancestry which states George Richardson married Mary Ann Grimshaw 6/8/1821 Paston, Norfolk - this would tie in with the birthplace given for Mary on the census i.e. Paston.
George and Mary Ann also had son Edward baptised at Edingthorpe on 20/2/1843 - neither his birth nor Thirza's seem to have been registered so doesn't look like you can purchase a certificate.
Annette
Thank you for the link to the ancestry tree, I'll have a look at that later. I'm glad you couldn't see Thirza's birth ref either - I had a look but to no avail.
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Looking at Paston baptisms on familysearch Susanna gave birth to a son John after Mary Ann and earlier was this baptism.
Edward Grimshaw Or Larther
Baptism/Christening Date: 04 Mar 1793
Baptism/Christening Place: PASTON,NORFOLK,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 24 Feb 1793
Father's Name: Edward Larther
Mother's Name: Susanna Grimshaw
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I gave up with John W... sure someone else will spot him before I do ;)
What I have found tho' is rather interesting in the 1851.. the plot thickens...
Refering back to the Remblents families in 1841 we now find that ..
Rachel Ramblants [sic] is now Head of the family aged 40, no sign of her husband Edward at home. HO107/1820/F472 Artichoke Inn, Broome, Norfolk
her daughters are living with Rachel:
Emily 13. A weaver of Silk b. Broome, Norfolk - Listed as 'Married'
Rachel 11 . At Home . b. Broome, Norfolk
Susanna. 7. At Home b. Broome, Norfolk
I think this is Edward Remblents, ( Rachel's husband) right age, although listed as 'Unmarried' living with his parents Charles and Phoebe ?
I can't be certain as the transcription is by inital only -
Charles Ramblants [sic] 69. Head. Woodman. b. Ditchingham, Norfolk
P Ramblants. 71. Wife b. Hedingham, Norfolk
E Edwards. 41. Son Woodman b. Ditchingham, Norfolk
The occupation woodman is the same, ? as to why he is living back with his parents as unmarried, perhaps Edward & Rachell had separated ?
So.. in brief. Anne Whitup was living with Charles & Phoebe Remblent in 1841 who are the parents of Edward ( married to Rachel) who in the 1841 are living a couple of doors away from John Whitup who is lodging with Harriet & Sally Remblent. Too much of a coincidence for the Remblent and Whitup family not to be connected I think, one of these is a grandparent possibly ?
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Sorry - Rachel is listed as Married - not her daughter Emily, slipped the line ..
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And .. I did it again, typing too quickly should read E Remblent! not E Edwards -
Sorry guys :-[
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I managed to find a baptism at Ditchlingham for an Emily Remnant, dau of Charles and Phebe, January 1801. No other Remnant/Remblant/Remblents found so far.
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Managed to find a few more bits and pieces in the parish registers, but crucially not the marriage between a Whitup and a Remblent!
Edward Remblent mar Rachel Perfect 23 Jun 1835, Broom, Norfolk Witness John Perfect and Susanna Perfect
John Whitup mar Elizabeth Barrett (widow) 28 July 1835, Broom, Norfolk. Witnesses Ellen Fitzgerald and john Smith Clark
Edward Charles Remnants bur 25th May 1847, Broom, 8mnths
Martha Remblants bur 15 Apr 1849, Broom, 9mnths
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Been trying for hours to get onto familysearch, but it wont let me on!
Found this marriage on ancestry - Charles Remnants and Phebe Gates, Ditchington 1801.
I guess just need to find all their children then see if they marry a Whitup....
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Well Done ! That must be the parents Charles & Phebe.. so we know they have children Emily 1801 & Edward 1811 for a certain, what we need to find out now is who the other children are. My guess ( and it is only a guess) is that one of their daughters married Robert Whitup ( Anne's father) although where he is in the 1841 is a mystery? if he is not shown as deceased in 1848 when Anne married, I don't know where he is, I can't find him!
I do feel that Anne & John being with Remblents in 1841 is significant...
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I couldn't find John Whitup in 1851 but did find him in 1861 - ref. RG9 - 3647 - 5 - 3 - in Yorkshire. Transcribed as Widops but someone has submitted the correct name of Wittup - bc.1825 Pulham.
The only John I can find baptised at Pulham with a name anywhere near Whittup/Wittup is:
John Whitam bp.2/12/1820 Pulham St. Mary The Virgin, son of Robert and Emily (I realise that this is 5 years earlier than wanted but possibly this one died).
The only other baptism I could find there was:
Anne Whitam bp.22/12/1823 details as above
Can't see any other children to Robert and Emily but thought I'd mention as these events cover all of christian names raised in this topic (or maybe these are just red herrings).
Annette
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Might not be red herrings after all.
Emily Remnants married Robert Whitham 6/1/1820 Ditchingham
Surely too much of a coincidence!
Annette
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Well found ! :) Grandparents - Charles & Phoebe
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Bang! Crash!
Is that the sound of a brick wall coming tumbling down?!!!!
Doing a mini happy dance at my desk!!
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Taken from FreeReg -
Baptism for Charlotte Remnants dau. of Charles Remnants and Phoebe Gates. All Saints, Woodton, Norfolk.
birth date 5 July 1804 baptism 5 August 1804
and confirmation for Edward Remnants
son of Charles Remnants and Phoebe Gates.
All Saints, Woodton, Norfolk
birth 5 Oct 1806 baptism 12 Oct 1806
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Trying to make sense of everything!
Charles Remnants (bn . 1782) marries Phebe Gates (bn c. 1780) in 1801.
Their children are:
Emily bn 1801
Charlotte bn 1804
Edward bn 1806
? Sally bn c. 1811
? Harriet bn c. 1816
Emily Remnants (bn 1801) marries Robert Whitham (bn ?) in 1821
Their children are:
John bn 1820 (perhaps dies?)
Anne bn 1823
? John bn 1825
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Emily Remnants (bn 1801) marries Robert Whitham (bn ?) in 1821
Their children are:
John bn 1820 (perhaps dies?)
Anne bn 1823
? John bn 1825
Anne is my 3xgt grandmother, and marries James Richardson
John marries and is Whitby for the 1861 census (and presumably by 1849 which is when his eldest child (acc to 1861) is born:
John (1849 Whitby)
Charles (1851 Whitby)
William (1856 Whitby)
Anne (1853 Whitby)
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Charles (bn 1851) marries Sarah Jane ? between 1871 and 1881, but files for divorce in 1884. J 77/317/9499
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Ok.. so you now have the connection between the Whitup's and Remblents and you know that Anne was with her grandparents by 1841, with Robert (her father) listed as not deceased in 1848, my guess would be that her mother Emily may have died earlier and that is why Anne and her brother John are with relatives. It's a mystery as to where Robert is in the 1841, but given the variations in spelling, he is probably out there somewhere, we just haven't been able to find him yet. So that is the first part hopefully solved for you :)
I had wondered about Phoebe Gates and looked to see whether her and Patience (Walpole) were perhaps sisters. Nothing to go on yet. I have found Phoebe Gates. da. of John Gates & Elizabeth Wall. . 8 November 1784. All Saints, Norwich, Norfolk in FreeReg with a possible elder younger brother John b. 1793, but no Patience, so maybe not. The Walpole connection may not be there ofcourse, that may be a red herring too, they may just have happened to be lodging together as there is a 70 year old Samuel Morse in the same household with them all in 1841, we know he is not Phoebe's father, but he may be Patience's, or he may just be a lodger..
More food for thought....
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i'm not enitrely convinced whitup / whitham its just a feeling i have
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i think we need to trace the people from Annas 1841 census household as much as we can back / forward etc
i know you've all made a great start even with a strong Norfolk accent i a m not sure that Whitup and Whitham could be mistaken the endings sound different
obviously it could have been mistranscribed my partners surname is Hickman which stated as Hickmar Hickmer etc if they were illiterate then they may not have been able to say its Whitup not Whitham written down or vice versa.
unless its pronounced whitem (whit em)
is there a Whitup family around before these appear? or a Whitham family after they name seemingly turns to Whitup ?
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Patience Walpole as far as i can see is
1841
HO107; 784; 16; 8; 9;
1851
HO107; 1809; 8; 9;
1861
RG9; 1201; 130; 18;
died
Patience Walpole
: Jan-Feb-Mar 1863
Erpingham
Norfolk
4b
: 35
i see the 1841 census actually separates the houeholds that are living in that house
there doesnt appear to be a separation mark between Anna Whitup and Samuel Morse maybe thats because he is on the next page or maybe not?
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death
John Walpole
: Jul-Aug-Sep 1846
Erpingham
Norfolk
13
78
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Seems John & Patience had a whole lot of children
Jonas ch 18.05.1817 Norfolk
William 13.03.1827 Norfolk
Elizabeth 05.10.1815 North Walsham
actually not a lot just repeated a few times in the index ;D
however it seems that a John Walpole and Patience Matthews had children of the same name
William ch. 09.06.1814 also 09.07.1814 North Walsham
Jonas 09.06.1814 also 09.07.1814 North Walsham
Elizabeth 05.10.1815 Walsham North
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and just to confuse you there are also these burials
William Walpole s/o John Walpole & Patient Matthews North Walsham 21.07.1814
Jonas ditto
William & Jonas as above but date 21.07.1813
so possibly Jonas & William were twins and died as babies although not before they were born obviously
John decided he better make an honset woman of Patience and then Elizabeth was born followed by Jonas and then later another William
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and bingo we have
Name: Pationes Matthews
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 12 Jun 1785
Baptism/Christening Place: Cawston, Norfolk, England
Father's Name: Robert Matthews
Mother's Name: Mary Matthews
which ties in with Patience Walpole p.o.b on the 1851 & 1861 census
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Robert & mary had a whole lot of children christened at Cawston as well as Patience
Sarah Matthews
christening: 15 Jun 1779 Cawston, Norfolk, England
Robert Matthews
christening: 01 Feb 1789 Cawston, Norfolk, England
William Deving Matthews
christening: 01 Mar 1772 Cawston, Norfolk, England
Judith Matthews
christening: 06 Nov 1781 Cawston, Norfolk, England
Ann Matthews
christening: 20 Dec 1783 Cawston, Norfolk, England
John Matthews
christening: 07 Dec 1774 Cawston, Norfolk, England
James Matthews
christening: 12 Jun 1785 Cawston, Norfolk, England
Elizabeth Matthews
christening: 23 Mar 1777 Cawston, Norfolk, England
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Well that rules out Phoebe Gates and Patience Matthews being sisters, perhaps there is no Walpole connection to look for, it also rules out Samuel Morse as being Patience's father
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So I think we can say at this point, as far as we can tell, the Walpoles are not connected by blood to the Remnants.
As for the Whitham/Wittup issue - Toni, I appreciate what you are saying and I too find it difficult to see how the ending of the name can be so very different in just a few years. However, what makes me want to look into this further is the marriage between Emily Remnant and Robert Whitham, especially with the baptism records at Pulham and then John Wittup in 1851 giving his place of birth as Pulham.
But I am open to all evidence!
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yes of course that is a valuable clue not to be thrown away
there isn't a separating line betwixt samuel morse and anna whitup so i would assume they are the same household in 1841 so it would be worth investigating him more
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I have made an error in the name of the lodger in 1841, and it is Samuel MASON not Morse. (How I got Morse when I looked at it the first time, I have no idea!)
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Samuel Mason appears on the 1841 census in the same household as Anna Whitup
the Rembelants and also the Walpoles he is marked as being aged 75 and BIC now I believe anyone under the age of 14 and over the age of 65 exact ages were meant to be given on the 1841 census if this practice was adhered to this would give him a birth year if 1766
We have found a tentative connection between the Rembelants and the Anna Whitup i.e we think these are her grandparents,
Did we manage to find a connection to the Walpoles ? Patience Walpole being formerly Matthews ? it may be that as the head of the household the rest were just lodgers
It seems FindMyPast have Samuel Mason as born 1771 residing Paston North Walsham (or the other way round) thst would make him 70 not 75 in 1841
It seems strange that the households are separated by the usual line and there is no mark between Anna Whitup and Samuel Mason suggesting they were part of the same household but then again Samuel goes on to the next page.
Another thought occurred to me is that Samuel is listed after Anna
Was this not a time when men were thought more significant then women and were usually listed first or at least in age order
Anna being only 15 and Samuel 70 or 75 why is Anna listed first? Is it because she is actually in the Rembelants household and the dividing mark put in the wrong place
Maybe they have divided the household into rooms so the Rembelants in one room the Walpoles in another and Anna in another then on the next page you have Samuel in another. Would the house have had 4 bedrooms ?
I note that Patience nee Matthews had a few siblings I wonder if these married a Rembelant or a Mason or even Whitup this should be investigated
I also note that the Walpoles had children Jonas, William and Elizabeth what happened to these children who did they marry?
There are a couple of Samuel Masons born in Norfolk circa 1760-1775 but we have no way of telling if these are ours or not. If Samuel is not on the 1851 census ti leads me to believe he died can we find his death ? although I am not sure if this would give us any clues on him.
Have you tried the land tax records of 1798 ? this will tell you who is in each household and who owned the property, I think this would be interesting to see as it might give a clue to relationships.
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Now that Christmas is out of the way, I have time to go over all these findings, and want to thank all of you who contributed in knocking down a rather large brick wall!!
I have been tying up loose ends and hatching, matching and dispatching Richardsons and Remnants.
I was astonished to find Thirza Richardson (now Bungard) dying in 1940 aged 100!!! 1940 was before I (or my parents!) was born, but it feels almost tangible - the changes and upsets in the world that she must have seen is mind blowing!
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And we have another Scavenger Hunt for you........ were you getting withdrawal symptoms? ;D ;D
I think you'll like this one.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,575013.0.html
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
As usual, this Hunt will remain open for any further information which might come in.
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Might have a connection John Wittup/Whitup and 25+ ways of spelling the family name.On his first marriage certificate [ Hannah Holmes] 1847 his father's name was John Wittup Labourer [not deceased].His second marriage [Jane Roberts] 1869 his father's name was Robert Wittup Dock Labourer [not deceased].Five children from his first marriage John, Charles, Anne, William , Francis and Robert Henry second marriage.John died Whitby 1887. Hope this info is helpful
Thanks Daphne
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Hi Daphne,
Thank you for that information - I think John Wittup was the brother of my Anna Wittup (3 x gt grandmother).
I'll have to go back over this hunt - did we ever find when Robert Wittup (Anna and John's father) died?
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Patience Matthews (1783-1863) married John Walpole (1787-1846) at Blickling in 1811. She was the daughter of Mary and John Matthews of Cawston. From 1832 to 1841, John Matthews was the victualler of the ‘Ratcatcher’s’ inn [now the ‘Dun Cow’] at Cawston, where he was the villages’ rat-catcher.