RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: davidft on Monday 28 November 11 18:31 GMT (UK)
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A kind rootschatter found the attached record for me and I am seeking help to see if I can verify him as my David Walker
Background
My David Walker born 1821 in North Yorkshire was sentenced to 7 years transportation on 15 April 1851. He was a blacksmith.
The attached records record a David Walker of the right age arriving at Darlinghurst Gaol, New South Wales in 1854.
I have tried looking for details of the ship Antelope to no avail.
I have tried to look at Australian Government records but they seem to require registering to access anything.
Please could someone suggest a way forward or perhaps find what Australian records exist for this David Walker.
Thank you
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I had a look at TROVE, searched for "David Walker" Antelope,and found an article in the newspaper Empire 3 March 1854 regarding David Walker desertion Antelope,sentence to 7 days,
hope this helps
Cass
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Thank you Cass,
Looks like that may not be my David Walker if he was sentenced for desertion - not something you associate with a convict
Could you tell me what TROVE is please
Thank you
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Hi there,
I have my doubts that your chap was actually transported to New South Wales.
From the Sydney Morning Herald 3 March 1854
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12953047
Daniel Walker, a seaman belonging to the Antelope,was found guilty of desertion, and sentenced to seven day's imprisonment. John Reynolds, a seaman belonging to the same vessel," was found guilty of desertion, and sentenced to 28 days' imprisonment.
The reason for so many ship desertions (the newspapers from that era are full of reports) was most likely because NSW was in the middle of the grip of Gold Fever caused by the lure of Gold discoveries and many Rushes to the various locations included people deserting ships, and not just deserting their land based employment positions.
Transportation of convicts to NSW ceased 1840, http://www.heritage.nsw.gov.au/07_subnav_19_02_02.htm
Transportation of convicts to VDL (Tasmania) ceased 1853 http://www.wyatt-family.com/sue/genealogy/abbreviations.htm
Transportation of convicts to WA started in 1850 and ceased in 1868 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convicts_in_Australia
Fingers crossed you can find your David Walker. Here's the main link to the digitised newspapers http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM
Thank you for those details.
Yes it looks like that David\Daniel Walker is not mine.
Back on the search for David Walker in the parish registers I think. I've had one die and been buried but not registered perhaps that is what happened to David Walker too.
Much appreciated
David
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A kind rootschatter found the attached record for me and I am seeking help to see if I can verify him as my David Walker
Background
My David Walker born 1821 in North Yorkshire was sentenced to 7 years transportation on 15 April 1851. He was a blacksmith.
He may have been transported to Western Australia. Do you have the trial information?
http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/con-wa.html
Also, have you considered that perhaps Britain was sending convicts to other colonies, not just to the Antipodes?
Cheers, JM
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Hi
Yes I have the trial information. Basically he was convicted of stealing a pair of trousers and a sheet and sentenced to 7 years transportation - probably because this was not his first offence !
I have searched records of convicts leaving England (these are not complete) and can not find him in there and also can not find him listed as having received a pardon or lesser sentence (which I gather quite a lot of people did at this time). The records of the Northallerton Gaol where he was held do not show when he left there (he had gone by July 1851) or where he went.
I did search the WA list for him some time ago and although quite a few Walkers not the one I wanted
I know his wife remarries in 1856 - but was she the widow she claimed to be ?
David
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Do the details you have say he was first sent to a Prison Hulk?, and have you got the newspaper report on his sentence, or any more details you could post here? Some convicts never actually were transported, they spent the seven years on the Hulks.
PM
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What I have is
1. the ancestry extracts from the criminal registers. There are actually two David Walkers tried in April 1851 one on the 8th and the other on the 15th. These are two separate people. The first is not mine and gets two months. The second is mine and gets 7 years transportation.
2. I have the desposition papers from the trial from the North Yorks Archives (they originally sent the wrong ones that is how confusing it is having the two David's). From that I can clearly tell I have the right David Walker as it lists where the crimes take place, what he had to say and what his wife said when the police arrived at the door.
3. I have the quartely calendar of those in confinement in Northallerton Gaol dated 1 july 1851. By the time of the next quarterly return he is gone. There is no mention of being sent to a hulk, being released or given a lesser sentence
4. I did ask the North Yorks archives (who provided the desposition papers) if there were any more jail papers or details of what happened to the convicts and they said they didn't have any and could not suggest where to look.
There is a possibility there could be something in local papers but as these are not on line this would involve a visit to the British Library newspaper archives (which are currently being digitalised I believe)
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Re the re-marriage of his wife, with her status as widow. The clergy recorded the status. The options available to the clergy were either Spinster or Widow. The sentence of transportation for seven years would give the clergy the reason for using the status as Widow. Widow did not just mean that the spouse was deceased. Its meaning in the 1850s and earlier was more extensive, it contracted to mean the spouse was deceased upon the widowhood of Queen Victoria. The clergy would have formed the view that the marriage was over due to the sentence of transportation, thus the 'widow' status giving her the opportunity to re-marry, under the "seven years" consideration.
The following link gives a Professor of Law's paper that may be of interest....
http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/seminars/finlay.html
Cheers, JM
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Thank you for posting the link on the seminar - interesting reading.
I know clergymen used a great deal of discretion, whether it was right to or not, as in my tree there is a several times great uncle who was a clergymen. Let's just say he was a law unto himself on what he did and did not register and how.
The thing about whether David's wife was a widow or not is complicated by the fact that he had four children by her, the last one born three months to the day after his trial. so that begs the question would he voluntarily give up his family. Unfortunately the poor law records for the area do not survive. From census and other records his wife is always working, even when remarried, and family members take the children from time to time.
David Walker is elusive - been chasing him for several years. Think I will put him back on the back burner and see if I can go to North Yorks Archives next summer
Thank you for your help
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Hello
I have just discovered this conversation and it seems that David Walker who was transported to New South Wales was my 3 x great grandfather. He was the father of my 2 x great grandfather James Walker who was baptized in Knaresborough in 1847. I have just started to research more about him and as yet haven't found details of his brothers/sisters but know that his father was David, a blacksmith of Ellingstring and his mother was Isabella Caygill. Fascinating to learn the details of his sentencing and transportation. I have a photograph of James Walker (attached) with his wife and some of their children. They had 10, 8 of whom survived to adulthood, including my great grandmother Maria Maude Walker. James was always a farm hind and spent his later years at Ketton Hall Farm in Brafferton, County Durham. He died in 1918 and is buried in Darlington. I wonder what became of David. What a tough life Isabella must have had. Really glad I found your posts. Jo.
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Hello Jo
It was nice to receive your post. David Walker was by 3 X great grandfather too
Despite this thread being three years old I am still on the search that he actually went to Australia and I continue to look on and off to see if I can find out what actually happened.
I do not know how much you know about the family going back but if I can help I would be happy to share information, although I know some people like to research it themselves. Please let me know of any help I might be able to give.
Re the photo of James I stumbled across that photo a while ago and it was good to see as I have practically no photos of any of my ancestors. I draw on the photo to give an impression of what David may have looked like.
I do have one question if I may and that is do you have the marriage certificate of James Walker and Jane Anne Hodgson, and if so what does James say about his father including his name.
Thank you
David
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Hello
Thanks for the reply, I realized that the post was quite a while ago. I have shared the photo publicly as I know how nice it is to actually see the faces of our ancestors. Also the original, which I have, is not in great condition so scanning it meant saving it. Any information you can share would be lovely, I've just started focusing on the Walker part of my family tree again after looking at other parts for a while. I think I have James' sisters as Mary and Deborah and his younger brother as William. I also think I have information that Isabella re-married to Thomas Oliver though I haven't researched the original documents to verify this yet. I have just checked and I don't have the marriage certificate of James Walker to Jane Ann Hodgson but think my mother may have it, so will find out. We have traced him through all census data and know that though he was baptized in Knaresborough he was at Ellingstring in 1851 aged 4, then at 14 he had left home to become a servant at Firby. I have found David as an apprentice blacksmith in 1841 though haven't gone back any further with him yet - If you know more and don't mind sharing that would be great. I believe Davids parents were David Walker and Mary Stott of Masham but don't know much about them so far. I don't live too far away from where they all lived, I'm in Yarm which was formerly the northern border of North Yorkshire and often (particualrly in the summer) go out to the Dales around Masham. Quite nice to know some of my roots are there!
Jo
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Hi
I agree the details you have there. I will write some notes on David’s family and ancestors over the weekend. I can do the same for Isabella’s but that will probably not be until next weekend.
I have sent you a PM with a question to check things
David
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Hi
If in the meantime you have found what happened to David WALKER, b 1821 in Ellingstring, Blacksmith, who was sentenced to 7 years transportation in 1851 at Northallerton, then I hope that my public reply might help some others looking for answers.
I am as certain as I can be that the following is what happened to him. He wasnt transported, but ended his days in Dartmoor Prison: 24th Feb 1854.
I have followed what happened to him in the prison records, obtained from a commercial family history site, and the records essentially all confirm that it is this David Walker (confirmed by his trial date and place and occupation and age). I am descended from his half-brother William Vayro. Thus we share a direct ancestor: Mary Stott (my 3X grand-mother).
He was in Northallerton prison till 3rd Oct 1851 when he was transferred to Millbank Prison. On 8th Nov 1851 he was transferred to Pentonville. He was there till 2nd Aug 1852. The record says he was transferred to Portsmouth, but I dont have any record of him there. However shortly thereafter he appears in the Dartmoor Prison records from the quarter ending Sept 1852 and through to his death on 24th Feb 1854. Whilst in Northallerton it says he was suffering from scrofula (tuberculosis of the neck lymph glands, often caught by drinking infected milk), and in fact was first rejected by the surgeon for transfer to Pentonville. In the Dartmoor records he is described as scrofulous, and latterly "delicate". My guess is therefore that his death registration record is: Name: David Walker, Registration Year: 1854, Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun, Registration district: Tavistock, County: Devonshire, Volume: 5b, Page: 213.
I hope this helps.
Liz
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@Rclg
Hi
Thank you for posting what happened to David Walker I had never managed to find out although I have spent several years looking. On the plus side the date of death you give means that when his wife remarried (1856) she was actually free to do so.
I did have some records from Northallerton Prison (from the Northallerton Archives) but didn't get the 3 October details and so didn't know where he went or the details of the Scrofula he suffered from. My attempts at looking at other prison records came to nought too, so receiving your information is like gold dust. I also ruled out the possibility of getting death certificates on spec as there were too many David Walker's around.
If its not too much to ask may I ask how you found the Millbank, Pentonville and Dartmoor prison records as although I do not have anymore prisoners to search you never know what may turn up in future ;)
I do have a couple of photos of the gravestone of James Stott which I believe is where Mary is buried. (The hesitancy is because I have had computer problems and I am not sure at the moment what I can access. However if it is correct and you would like a copy and anything I may have on the Vayroh's then I would be happy to send it, but it may take a week or so).
Talking of James Stott I know who he married but not who his parents were or where he came from (still waiting for more Yorkshire parish records to be put online)
Once again thank you so much for posting the details
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Thank you both for posting so much information. This update is very interesting, I wonder if David and poor Isabella were able to keep in touch. I am glad to hear she was free to marry again when she did. As I mentioned, David and Isabella were my 3x gt grandparents so I'm a direct descendant and fascinated by their lives, no matter how grim! I had hoped my mother had got a marriage certificate for their son James to Jane Ann Hodgson (my 2 x gt grandparents), however she hasn't so that's something else to pin down.
Thanks again
Jo
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Hi
I am glad to help, I got the records from FindMyPast. I only searched on David Walker and his approx birth +/- 5 years into the search on their section "England & Wales, Crime, Prisons & Punishment, 1770-1935". Then I examined all the records that came up that either did not have a birth date or were within a few years.
These originated with National Archives I think, as follows:
1. Reference: PCOM2: Millbank Prison, Middlesex: register of prisoners, Piece number: 32, Page number: 139.
2. HO24, Source: Home Office: Pentonville Prison Registers; Piece No. 116; page number
others: HO8, Dartmoor quarter returns, Piece numbers: 113, 114, 117, 118, 119, 120.
3. Piece 119: No 26 of Prison Book: First name(s): David, Last name: Walker, Age: 33, Birth year: 1818, Year: 1851, Date: 08 Apr 1851, Prisoner number: 1417, Court: Northallerton, Crime: Stealing a pair of trousers & a sheet & pre. con., Sentence duration: 7, Surgeon’s Report, Behaviour during the quarter, Number of Preceding Musters are all blank; Remarks: died 24th February 1854, This was the quarterly return 31st March 1854 of Dartmoor Prison.
Plus there were 2 from Ancestry, one in relation to his imprisonment in 1850 for one month for larceny, and one referring to his trial in April 1851. I was also able to find him in the 1851 census which was taken on 30th March 1851. His wife Isabella at this stage was in Ellingstring, and is described as an ag.lab., indeed that is what she was described as in 1841 census too when she was also in Ellingstring.
Re Mary Stott's marriage to David Walker (father of David we are discussing) - I understand they married in Masham?
I would love some further info re the Stotts. All I know is that James Stott married Elizabeth, but not who she was or where they married. I know they had an older son, Thomas, and younger son James, and daughter Susanna. One of the witnesses for Mary Stott's marriage to William Vayro was Susannah Stott, presumably her sister. I also think that James Stott was still alive in 1841, living in Masham, and described as a stonemason, aged 65. Does that fit with your information?
I am not sure how to send/receive private messages.
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Hi
Thank you for the message. I have sent you three personal messages and you should see a message at the top of the screen saying you have messages. If you cannot click on the MY Messages tab at the top of the screen to retrieve your message that will be because sometimes the system requires you to have sent a minimum number of messages before you can send and receive messages. If that is the case just reply to this message with any short message and it should unlock them for you.
Yes that is the 1841 census entry you have for James Stott. James dies on 9 April 1850 so misses the 1851 census and hence why i do not have a birth place for him yet.
Finally there is an error in message 3 of 3. Where I have written
Helen Fowler at Ripon Cathedral on 8 May 1755
this should read
Ellen Fowler at Ripon Cathedral on 8 May 1755 (FindMyPast records the name as Helen but the Ripon CD records the name as Ellen, twice)
Hope that works but if not just leave a message and we will see what we can do
David
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Hi David
Thanks, I have received all of your messages (private and otherwise) and thank you for all the information relating to Mary Stott and her ancestors, which is very helpful, and wish you luck with your future sleuthing!
Best Wishes
Liz
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Hi
I have also been following this post for several years as David Walker is my Husband's 4 x great grandfather and although a sad story, I am glad that he has been "found".
If anyone would like to exchange info I would be happy to offer share the info I have, I have quite a lot on James Walker (son of David) and his wife Jane Hodgson (although I too haven't been able to find their marriage) such as death announcements from the local paper and parish register entries and on David and Isabella Caygil and their parents.
From the posts i was wondering if anyone would be willing to share details of -
The records kept at North Yorkshire Record Office on David's trial/imprisonment
Copy of James Stott's Head Stone.
Due to the posts I was also learned more information on Mary Stott (David's mother) as I didn't know she had remarried but hadn't been able to find her death so I have also "found her" and was able to get a copy of her second marriage and can now look for her burial. - so thank you.
regards Clare
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Hi
Don't think I saw this in the posts but if I missed it sorry - David was buried on the 1st March 1854 at Princetown Parish, Devon. His entry reads David Walker, Dartmoor Prison No 1417 (his prisoner number), aged 32.
regards
Clare
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Hello Clare,
I have seen the questions you have put in the previous post. I will dig out some information and post it tomorrow or the following day.
One question I have is James Walker had a son David. Do you perhaps know what happened to him ?
David
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Hi
can I just check the David (son of James) your enquiring about was born in 1895 and possibly married Phyllis in 1937?
regards Clare
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Hi
Yes the birth date of 1895 sounds right. The reason I asked about him is he seems to disappear of the censuses so I was curious.
I have found my notes I was looking for so I will be able to send you some information tomorrow
David