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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: polly1958 on Monday 28 November 11 12:05 GMT (UK)
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My Great Grandmother Ellen Hoggard born in Reighton Yorks about 1845 married twice.
Her first husband was William Moorhouse born in Ossett 1834,their first child Alice was born in 1866.I have found them in 1871 census in Hull with son George born 1869 ,Alice is with her Grandparents in Reighton.
In the 1881 there is no trace of any of the family at all.
By 1891 Ellen is still in Hull, married to Paul Crottogini an ice cream manufacturer from Italy, they have a son Louis William born 1882 and her children Thomas born 1872 and Eliza born 1876 from her marriage to William are also living there.So going on the dates of the births she would have married William @1865 and Paul between 1875* and 1881.
What is baffling is that on the 1911 census it says Ellen and Paul have been married for 31 years which would mean the marriage took place in 1870!? yet she was with William on the 1871 census!
The problem is there is absolutely no sign of a marriage to either of the men.William is another mystery as the only death I could come up with is for a George William Moorhouse in 1875*.I would be very grateful for any advice as to why the marriages haven't been registered,or are there missing pages?Or if indeed they were married at all.Many thanks Polly
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Hi Polly
Were the children all registered under the surnames of their respective fathers?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Is it possible that the marriage took place in Italy?
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By 1891 Ellen is still in Hull, married to Paul Crottogini an ice cream manufacturer from Italy,
Just to say it is Paul Grottogini in case you want to look at the 1891 census :)
RG12; Piece: 3940; Folio 36; Page 15
Stan
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Yes, Ambly the childrens names were all Moorhouse.Its possible the wedding could have been in Italy,and thanks for the reference to the census I do have that.The name Crottogini has been spelt in so many ways!
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Hi Polly
Have looked at each individual too see if they married anyone else?
Margp
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Hi Polly
You're not alone!
One of mine married George & had children, appears as a widow in the 1891 census, 1901 appears with Robert (same surname ::)), in 1911 claims to have been married 30+ years.
Even my expert RC friends couldn't find a death for George or anything at all about Robert or this 2nd marriage, the children on their marriage certificates put father as "George, deceased".
For what it's worth I think my rellie & the so-called 2nd husband didn't actually get married at all and lied about years married.
I'm not saying that's the case with yours, but I think there was sometimes a much more casual attitude to certain things than we imagine in "strict" Victorian times! (At least among my family :o ;D )
Pat
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I've not found the marriage either or the family in 1881.
Louis William's birth was registered Hull Sept 1881 9d 261 (as Crottegini) so it would seem Ellen & Paul were a couple by the time of the 1881 census, whether married or not.
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Thanks Marg,roopat and mshrmh,yes I've checked to see any other marriages,but found nothing.It's all so frustrating!
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What is baffling is that on the 1911 census it says Ellen and Paul have been married for 31 years which would mean the marriage took place in 1870!?
Didn't you mean 1880 ??? :)
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Oh dear,of course it's 1880,thanks Carol.At least that solves one problem!I think i will contact the Catholic Churches in Hull to see if they can help with the Crottogini,(Crottigine,Grottogini) marriage,and possibly Louis Williams death too,as he is on the 1901 census but missing from the 1911 census,I looked everywhere,he wasn't in the army etc,he may have gone abroad but I had some help with tracing that and to no avail,but he certainly isn't recorded in the death index.
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Hi Polly
I have tried every trick in the book and I can't find them, but I have found this record on the marriage index
William Boardman Oct-Nov-Dec 1861 Prescot Lancashire
Ellen Hoggard Oct-Nov-Dec 1861 Prescot Lancashire
Ellen Hoggarth Oct-Nov-Dec 1861 Prescot Lancashire
All of the above are transcribe with the GRO ref vol 8b page 778
But when you look at the original record, the GRO ref for Ellen Hoggard it is Southfield 9d and it looks like page 551, the other 2 people match the first GRO ref
Margp
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Hi Polly
Do you have William Moorhouse on the 1861 census?
Margp
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Hi Marg,
I did see that and tried a marriage between Ellen Boardman and William Moorhouse but couldn't find anything.I couldn't find a a William from Ossett in 1861,but found one living in Hull on board a vessell but he was born in Hull.
There is a George Moorhouse in the 1861 census married to Caroline Jane he,s from Ossett and a mechanic which would fit in with Williams occupation of boiler maker,and the fact that the address is Myton gate which is close to where Ellen was living in 1871.
In the 1851 census George Morhouse with wife Elizabeth but he's down as a joiner but again he's from Ossett.I,m not sure if he's one and the same person.Caroline re married in 1879 so i,m just looking to see if George had died between 1861 and 1879,to eliminate him.I did find a William in 1841 in Ossett but I think he was born 1845 he was living with his mother Alice who was unmarried.I wish I could . while I go to check but i.ll be back later.Thanks for all your help.
Polly
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The William Boardman marriage is on familysearch - which shows the bride's name as Ellen Hoggarth. Her father's name is Charles Jones. :( .
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Hi Polly
I would send for the marriage for Ellen Hoggard, GRO ref Southfield vol 9d the page I thinks looks like 551, she is on her own and not cross referenced with anyone, it is the only Ellen Hoggard I could find in that area.
As for William Moorhouse I would look more closely at the one with the mother Alice as this is the name of there first child?
Do you have all the birth certificates for all there children, does his occupation change on any of them, also do have any marriage certificate for there children, what was his occupation does it say deceased on any of them.
Margp
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Thanks Marg,
In 1841 Alice Moorehouse had a George born 1831 ,living with a William Moorhouse (her father given his age),she's unmarried
in 1851 Alice Moorhouse with William born 1845 Alice still unmarried.George by this time would be 20,and has left home.Not sure if any of this is relevant,but as you say the naming children after parents was common and Ellens eldest son was George too.Is George born 1831 William???Given that the only death in Hull in the years we are looking for is George William in 1875 i think it could be.
I think I will start sending for some birth certs of his children as you suggest.
Polly
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Hi Polly
I would not put much credence on the birth dates for the 1841 census they could be rounded up or down by 5 years and I have seen in some cases more than that.
I would also send for that marriage for Ellen Hoggard, she could have married someone else and you will have a name to go on, and if her parents are the same as your Ellen you will know if you are the right track.
Margp
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George Moorhouse son of Alice was born 6 September 1828 and baptised at Ossett on 10 November 1828 (on familysearch)
George Moorhouse born Ossett, in Hull in 1851 with Elizabeth looks quite likely to be the same one.
George Moorhouse married Caroline Jane Turner d/o Philip Turner at Sutton Bridge, Lincolnshire in 1857. There is no father's name given for George.
George and Caroline Jane Moorhouse are in Hull in 1861. Caroline was born in Sutton Bridge.
In 1864 Caroline Jane Moorhouse marries in Sunderland - one of the possible grooms is George Anderson.
In 1879 Caroline Jane Moorhouse d/o Philip Turner marries George Anderson in Hull.
1871 census has a couple named George and Caroline J Anderson living in Owston in Lincolnshire. Caroline says she was born in Wisbeach, Cambs. In the same household is a lodger named John Turner.
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I would send for the marriage for Ellen Hoggard, GRO ref Southfield vol 9d the page I thinks looks like 551, she is on her own and not cross referenced with anyone, it is the only Ellen Hoggard I could find in that area.
According to FreeBMD, 'vol 9d page 551' indicates Driffield reg district (there isn't a Southfield listed). Driffield, I believe, was next to Bridlington RD which included Reighton where Ellen says she was born.
The following names are on Driffield 1861 Dec qtr vol 9d page 551:
William James BURNS
Ellen HOGGARD
Mary REX
Thomas Crosby THOMPSON
Hope this helps :)
Carol
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I would send for the marriage for Ellen Hoggard, GRO ref Southfield vol 9d the page I thinks looks like 551, she is on her own and not cross referenced with anyone, it is the only Ellen Hoggard I could find in that area.
According to FreeBMD, 'vol 9d page 551' indicates Driffield reg district (there isn't a Southfield listed). Driffield, I believe, was next to Bridlington RD which included Reighton where Ellen says she was born.
The following names are on Driffield 1861 Dec qtr vol 9d page 551:
William James BURNS
Ellen HOGGARD
Mary REX
Thomas Crosby THOMPSON
Hope this helps :)
Carol
i have taken another look at the marriage and it is Driffield, it is in the original handwriting and hard to read thanks Carol
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I've not found the marriage either or the family in 1881.
Louis William's birth was registered Hull Sept 1881 9d 261 (as Crottegini) so it would seem Ellen & Paul were a couple by the time of the 1881 census, whether married or not.
It may be worth sending for this BC Polly, it may give the address where lived in 1881
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Thanks Galium,that tallys with what I found.Hi Carol my Ellen is living in St Peters Lincolnshire in 1861,wrongly transcribed as Keighton,instead of Reighton.Thanks Marg I will send for Louis BC and that marriage for Ellen too.I have sent emails to 2 Catholic Churches in Hull to see if they can help with the marriages of Paul Crottigini - Crottigine - Grottogine!
Polly
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Just found William James Burns married OND 1861 9d 551 Driffield same page and volume as Ellen Hoggard!
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No marriage between Ellen Burns and a Moorhouse,back to the drawing board.
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This still could be her, she may have already been married to William James Burns and she could not remarry, if he was still alive, it may be a good idea to track William James Burns through the census's to see if this Ellen is still with him, and then if she is we can eliminate her.
Marg
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Hi Polly
Marg I will send for Louis BC and that marriage for Ellen too.
Let us know how you get on
Margp
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Hi Marg,
I received the certs today,but not the news I was hoping for.Ellen's father is Thomas,I think she could be my Ellens cousin as her father William had a brother Thomas,I haven't checked the census yet to see.
Louis William Crottogini born 29th July 1881,address 14,Moxon street.I have just had a look on the 1881 census,but they're not there,a family called Appleby are living at 14.I hoped I might have found them with the names wrongly transcribed, but I think the page must be missing with their entries on.I even tried Myton Street,where they are living in 1891,but no.
Regards Polly
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Hi Polly
That is a shame, its back to the drawing board, the only thing I can suggest is the birth certificates of the children and the Electoral Rolls too see if there are any clues there, did you have any luck with RC record?
All the best Marg