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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: maltingo on Monday 28 November 11 10:04 GMT (UK)
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I am about "stumped" part way through researching a SMITH family.
The lady in question is a ANNIE SMITH, born on 13th March 1890, her whereabouts are unknown.
She died in JFM 1979 at ST ALBANS, HERTS ( Napsbury Hospital ). Cremated at Golders Green Cremetorium.
Her residence was predominately in the MIDDLESEX area of London, in the HENDON area.
She married in 1920 there, on 26th October 1920 to a WILLIAM WALL, on the marriage certificate her father was down as William Smith, deceased, a jobbing gardener, I would love dearly to find her line, if anyone has any suggestion's please, they would be much appreciated.
Thanks
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Hi
There's this possible on the 1901
19 Egbert Place, (West) St Pancras
RG13/133/63/56
William Smith, 41, gardener (domestic), b. Slough, Bucks
Eva, 38, b. Cullumpton, Devon
Eva A, d, 14, b. London
Jessie E, 12, b. -do-
Annie, 9, b. -do-
Regents Park area - a bit closer in that Hendon but a maybe - info is a fairly close fit with what you have :-\
There was also a possible b. Watford but her father was Joseph Smith, publican
gnu
PS - who were the witnesses on the marriage cert and have you found any possibles for her on the 1911?
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Will give you what I've found on the 1901 family, in case you want to follow them up~
1891
9 Egbert Street, St Pancras
RG12/118/206/35
William Smith, 31, gardener, b. Slough
Eva, w, 28, b. Cullompton
Eva A, d, 4, b. Hampstead
Jessie E, d, 2, b. -do-
(have children's baptisms if required - lived Gospel Oak Grove and then Egbert Street )
1881
Market Garden House, Beeches Road, Farnham Royal, Eton, Bucks
RG11/1461/111/13
James Smith, 46, market gardener (N D), b. East Burnham
Emma, w, 46. b. Slough
Caroline Adams, d, m, 23, groom's wife, b. Slough
Charles Thos Adams, s in l, 24, groom (dom), b. -do-
William Smith, s, 21, labourer (gen), b. -do-
Arthur, s, 9, b. Farnham Royal
Clara, d, 7, b. -do-
Alfred, s, 1, b. -do-
1871
Green Lane, Farnham Royal
RG10/1402/88/19
James Smith, 35, market gardener, b. East Burnham
Emma, w, 34
Caroline, d, 13
William, s, 11
James, s, 10
Harry, s, 9
Lizzey, d, 6
Hannah, d, 4
Charles T, s, 2
All except James b. Slough
Also there:
Robert Wheeler, lodger, unm, 24, Carter & labourer, b. Farnham Royal
Alice Wheeler, sister (? of Robert), unm, 20, domestic servant, b. -do-
An outside possible for Eva (no marriage found so far ):
1881
Old Park Farm, Cheshunt, Herts
RG11/1398/53/4
E Ayre, wife, 30, farmer's wife, b. Devon, Templeton
Richard S. V. Ayre, s, 4, b. Devon, Witheridge
Eva M Coleman, servant,18, general servant- domestic, b. Devon, Cullompton
James Kingdom, serv,22, carter emplyed on farm, b. Devon Witheridge
Joseph Trussell, serv, 33, cowman employed on farm, b. -do-
gnu
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Gnu
If Annie was born in 1890, where is she in 1891? The 1901 census could imply the one you found was born in 1892.
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With a name as frequently occuring as this, I suggest you buy a copy of her death cert which should record a place of birth ( depending on how knowledgable the informant was)
Dawn
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Oh ye of little faith ;D
Gnu
If Annie was born in 1890, where is she in 1891? The 1901 census could imply the one you found was born in 1892.
I have her born 1891-2. so she wasn't there. I don't take all that is written as gospel on death certs (I assume that's where the birthdate was from) - they are too often proved wrong. - the info is as good as the informant. Even more recently, my b-in-law thought his mother was born a year later than she was, when registering her death. I was there and had her birth cert.
I'm not saying that this is the correct one but, so far, this is the only Ann(ie) Smith b.c. 1890 with a father William who was a gardener living in the London/Middlesex North of the Thames area.
gnu
PS - that's why I asked for the witnesses on the marriage cert, in case they were relatives. I have now highlighted my query in case it gets overlooked.
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The reason why I questioned this is because I have barked up the wrong tree on a couple of occasions, doing masses of, what I thought was correct research, only to find the assumption I made in the first place was totally wrong.
Maltingo has an exact birth date, not just a year of birth. I know it may be incorrect, but until proved wrong it is all there is to go by. Just because Annie lived in Middx, it does not mean she was born there.
(One of my ancestors lived in London all her life, but was born in Berwick on Tweed)
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As I said, it may not be the correct one but it's the only person that I've been able to find born circa that time with a father William who was a gardener.
If anyone can find another one, I'm only too happy to say that this is definitely not her.
I think my point about death certs is really the same as yours Snowy :)
gnu
(I'm quite familiar with London residence. My sister has lived in London since the 1950s but was born in North Wales - I also lived there for 6-7 years and was born North Wales. Many on in laws' sides too- and they were Browns & Evans ;D ;D ;D )
PS - the only other one that I can see with a father William, gardener was in Aberdeen but she was b. May 1889
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Snowyw,
You make a good point, whilst it has been said in the family that she was around Hendon/Middx it seems always, although she moved to Childs Hill before she died, her husbands side having a father that was down as a miner hints that it wasn't around London, but more obvious mining areas up north, Wales, Devon etc that he was born, perhaps she grew up near to him and moved to the South I have no clues ?
Thank you
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So - have you got the info from the marriage cert and death cert, Maltingo?
Place of birth - death cert
Witnesses - marriage cert
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Gnu,
I only have a copy of the marriage Certificate,
Hendon Register Office,Middlesex, 26th October 1920.
Annie aged 30 years, Spinster.
William aged 47 years, Widower.
She was down as a Daily Domestic and He as a General Labourer ( ex army).
The Death record online, I take to be hers, because she died in 1979, aged around 90, family remember it to be around that date, when she was cremated at Golders Green Crem, and the record gives birthday as 13.03.1890, which would seem to agree with stated age on Marriage Cert.
Thanks
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Does it give the witnesses on the marriage cert?
Also, as Dawn says, the death cert should give the place of birth as it's a recent-ish one.
The baptism record that I found has her baptised in April, which would fit with a March birth - wrong year but I'm always suspicious of dates on marriage and death certs - I've seen too many examples of wrong info given/recorded.
I used her father's info as a starting point - even here, she could have been illegitimate and made his name up - my grandfather did.
gnu
Added - from what you sent, the witnesses are no clue :(
Have you thought that Annie might have exaggerated her age to minimise the age difference :-\
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Hi maltingo
I'm curious, are you exchanging information with gnu on the personal message system?
Dawn
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Hi Dawn
He sent me the names of the witnesses by PM in reply to my third request for them.
I assumed that he didn't want to mention them in public.
gnu
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Unless the information requested is about living people, there is no need for Rootschatters to send information on the personal message system.
If there is info to share, please post it openly so that we can all see what is known or has been found, others will then be happier to contribute and may have further things to add. Some chatters may be put off if they think it has all been done already, behind the scenes.
Please note that many people find the site using internet search engines and if the details aren't posted, you might miss out on potential links/ relatives.
Dawn
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Thank you Dawnsh,
I cannot be sure that either or the witness's are deceased, so I pm'd, but I understand fully what you say, and that it gives broader info to all and assist with lookups.
regards
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I think it's highly unlikely that someone who acted as a witness at a marriage in 1920 is still alive.
Dawn
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my greatgrandfather was alfred e smith brother of william smith born circa 1877 and brother of william smith/eva smiths brother in law who as also a gardener. would love to know more about this annie. James and Emma Smith nee Winch lived to great age . any use. I amnew to this forum so forgive me.
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Hi lovenest
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
Maltingo will receive email notifications that we have posted here and hopefully come back soon.
Dawn
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Hi Lovenest,
The Smith reference by Gnu on 28th November turned out to be about another line from the one I was trying to research.
This could be the line you are related to though.
Thanks,
regards
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Ha! I'm now curious ..... so they weren't yours after all. Like I said then, it is so easy to bark up the wrong tree.
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I'm curious as well, snowy - but better to explore all avenues than give up - nothing is found that way.
Did you find anything else?
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Just tied this up and it does look as if the ones that I found are lovenest's family:
my greatgrandfather was alfred e smith brother of william smith born circa 1877 and brother of william smith/eva smiths brother in law who as also a gardener. would love to know more about this annie. James and Emma Smith nee Winch lived to great age .
Will give you what I've found on the 1901 family, in case you want to follow them up~
1891
9 Egbert Street, St Pancras
RG12/118/206/35
William Smith, 31, gardener, b. Slough
Eva, w, 28, b. Cullompton
Eva A, d, 4, b. Hampstead
Jessie E, d, 2, b. -do-
(have children's baptisms if required - lived Gospel Oak Grove and then Egbert Street )
1881
Market Garden House, Beeches Road, Farnham Royal, Eton, Bucks
RG11/1461/111/13
James Smith, 46, market gardener (N D), b. East Burnham
Emma, w, 46. b. Slough
Caroline Adams, d, m, 23, groom's wife, b. Slough
Charles Thos Adams, s in l, 24, groom (dom), b. -do-
William Smith, s, 21, labourer (gen), b. -do-
Arthur, s, 9, b. Farnham Royal
Clara, d, 7, b. -do-
Alfred, s, 1, b. -do-
1871
Green Lane, Farnham Royal
RG10/1402/88/19
James Smith, 35, market gardener, b. East Burnham
Emma, w, 34
Caroline, d, 13
William, s, 11
James, s, 10
Harry, s, 9
Lizzey, d, 6
Hannah, d, 4
Charles T, s, 2
All except James b. Slough
Also there:
Robert Wheeler, lodger, unm, 24, Carter & labourer, b. Farnham Royal
Alice Wheeler, sister (? of Robert), unm, 20, domestic servant, b. -do-
An outside possible for Eva (no marriage found so far ):
1881
Old Park Farm, Cheshunt, Herts
RG11/1398/53/4
E Ayre, wife, 30, farmer's wife, b. Devon, Templeton
Richard S. V. Ayre, s, 4, b. Devon, Witheridge
Eva M Coleman, servant,18, general servant- domestic, b. Devon, Cullompton
James Kingdom, serv,22, carter emplyed on farm, b. Devon Witheridge
Joseph Trussell, serv, 33, cowman employed on farm, b. -do-
gnu
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Are you saying this Annie is not connected to my family if so any ideas on where to look to see what happened to william and eva because this is one line I have not followed through on.
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Hi lovenest
There is an Annie - it's just that maltingo says it's not his/hers
There's this possible on the 1901
19 Egbert Place, (West) St Pancras
RG13/133/63/56
William Smith, 41, gardener (domestic), b. Slough, Bucks
Eva, 38, b. Cullumpton, Devon
Eva A, d, 14, b. London
Jessie E, 12, b. -do-
Annie, 9, b. -do-
Regents Park area - a bit closer in that Hendon but a maybe - info is a fairly close fit with what you have :-\