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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: 77777 on Sunday 27 November 11 17:59 GMT (UK)

Title: Schiff Family Holsten, Germany/Prussia
Post by: 77777 on Sunday 27 November 11 17:59 GMT (UK)
I am trying to find out who the parents of Saling Schiff, born 1822 and Loius Schiff were. The only informaton that I have is that Saling and Louis came to Middlesex from Holsten, Lower Saxony, Prussia/Germany.
Title: Re: Schiff Family Holsten, Germany/Prussia
Post by: JustinL on Monday 28 November 11 13:02 GMT (UK)
Hello James,

Are you a descendent of one of these Jewish brothers?

Their parents were Abraham and Ernestina.

Search here first of all
http://www.jgsgb.org.uk/search-1851-database, where you will discover that there were two sisters who also came to England.

Then here http://www.rootschat.com/links/0hqc/

Saling became a naturalized British subject in 1857 (see here http://www.rootschat.com/links/0hqd/).

Justin






Title: Re: Schiff Family Holsten, Germany/Prussia
Post by: 77777 on Monday 28 November 11 18:58 GMT (UK)
Hello Justin

Yes, Saling was my ggg grandfather. Thank you very much for the information.

I discovered the Cemetery Scribes website yesterday and I knew he had at least one brother and sister. However I did not know about Emma nor had I found out his parents names, so thank you.

Where can I start to look for information on Abraham and Ernestina?  I am a novice at this.

Paula
Title: Re: Schiff Family Holsten, Germany/Prussia
Post by: JustinL on Monday 28 November 11 19:26 GMT (UK)
Paula,

This Schiff family most likely came from Wollstein in the Prussian province of Posen. The town is called Wolsztyn today. Both are pronounced wol-shtine. In 1837/38, half of the population of about 2,000 was Jewish.

Ernestina was recorded as Esther Schiff in the 1841 census. She was in London with Emma, Amelia and Betsey. Abraham appears to have died in 1850.

I shall look into this more tomorrow.

Justin
Title: Re: Schiff Family Holsten, Germany/Prussia
Post by: 77777 on Monday 28 November 11 19:59 GMT (UK)
Thank you very much Justin, you have been very helpful.
Title: Re: Schiff Family Holsten, Germany/Prussia
Post by: 77777 on Tuesday 29 November 11 20:43 GMT (UK)
Justin, I found this earlier:   https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NRW5-PLB

Could this be Ernestine Schiff? How would I go about finding out?

Thanks

Title: Re: Schiff Family Holsten, Germany/Prussia
Post by: 77777 on Tuesday 29 November 11 20:49 GMT (UK)
Or perhaps this one?

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NZWH-SQ7


Title: Re: Schiff Family Holsten, Germany/Prussia
Post by: JustinL on Wednesday 30 November 11 09:50 GMT (UK)
Hello Paula,

You are most unlikely to find any Jewish records in the online LDS databases. The two records you cite are from the parish records of the Protestant church of Rehme, which lies to the west of Hannover.

Do you live anywhere near to an LDS Family Hisotry Library? You could then at least consider ordering some of the records from Wolsztyn that have been filmed. Jewish vital events may have been recorded in the Protestant or Catholic parish records.

The disappointing reality is that the vast majority of the records of the numerous Jewish communities of the province of Posen were destroyed. I am, at least, in touch with an American woman who is also researching her Schiff ancestors from Wollstein/Wolsztyn. She is currently travelling in Germany, but will send me a couple of bits and pieces on her return to Texas. However, none of the names of her family members appear in any of the early generations of your ancesotrs, so it is impossible to judge whether the two families were related.

Justin




Title: Re: Schiff Family Holsten, Germany/Prussia
Post by: 77777 on Monday 19 December 11 12:19 GMT (UK)
Ok, thank you very much for your advice Justin and if you find anything else out in the future please let me know.

Kind regards
Paula
Title: Re: Schiff Family Holsten, Germany/Prussia
Post by: JustinL on Monday 19 December 11 16:56 GMT (UK)
Hello Paula,

No major breakthroughs I'm afraid. The American woman, who is actually German, is back from her travels and has sent me a couple of emails today. The info she has sent me shows that five men from Wollstein with the surname Schiff became naturalised Prussian citizens in 1834. We are currently comparing the forenames of the generation after your Abraham.

There may be some interesting records in the archives of Poznan. I'm discussing the matter with the German woman.

Take care, Justin
Title: Re: Schiff Family Holsten, Germany/Prussia
Post by: cas21 on Friday 23 December 11 13:11 GMT (UK)
Hi Paula
I too have go a small ammount of info on the Schiff brothers, possibly a few you havent already got. My Gt Grandfather was David Lowe and in my paperwork, written down from the London Gazzette, there was a partnership dissolved between him and Saling Schiff as cigar manufaturers and dealers in/and importers of tobacco. Firm of Lowe & Schiff at 126 Commercial st Spitalfields. Dissolved 17/6/1877.
I can find nothing else on this business.
Hoping this is of help
Caroline
Title: Re: Schiff Family Holsten, Germany/Prussia
Post by: 77777 on Saturday 24 December 11 20:50 GMT (UK)
Hi Caroline

Thank you very much for letting me know. I didn't know about that partnership and it's always great to get new information.  I knew of another partnership that Saling had with his brother Louis.

If you find out any more in the future please let me know and if I come across anything I will reciprocate.

Thanks again.
Paula
Title: Re: Schiff Family Holsten, Germany/Prussia
Post by: 77777 on Tuesday 03 January 12 02:21 GMT (UK)
Hi Justin

I found an Abraham Schiff and Leopold Schiff in Yorkshire in the 1841 census.

Then I found an Abraham Schiff who died in East London in 1850 and a Leopold Schiff who died in East London in 1851.   

In 1852 Saling Schiff called his son Abraham and the next son he had in 1853 he named Leopold - possibly after his late father and brother. 

I guess the explanation for them living in Yorkshire in 1841 away from the rest of the family would be that Abraham had an unusual occupation - a hawker.

What do you think?

Kind regards
Paula 
Title: Re: Schiff Family Holsten, Germany/Prussia
Post by: JustinL on Tuesday 03 January 12 14:43 GMT (UK)
Hello Paula,

Season's greetings!

I had already assumed that Abraham and Leopold were closely related to your family  (based on  the same logic), but Yorkshire was a very long way to go, and I cannot imagine why it was any easier being a hawker (a peddlar) up there.

A great many German-Jews were impoverished hawkers/peddlars. They were not permitted to learn a trade, and were often not permitted to run a shop. They had few other options. An attempt to escape poverty (and military conscription) was the commonest driver behind migration/emigration.

However, poor as they were, they had good business acumen, which opened great opportunites in more liberal societies such as the UK.

Justin


Title: Re: Schiff Family Holsten, Germany/Prussia
Post by: 77777 on Tuesday 03 January 12 20:48 GMT (UK)
Happy New Year Justin

Oh dear I should clearly have looked into the occupation, I hadn't heard of it and I thought it was something completely different. 

Yes, indeed a long way to go but as you say it does seem logical and I guess we will never know why they went there.

Many thanks for your input.
Paula

Title: Re: Schiff Family Holsten, Germany/Prussia
Post by: stmom on Friday 30 March 12 21:41 BST (UK)
Hello: I wanted to ask if you have ever come across a Schiffl in yours search for the Schiff family.  We have this family name in our tree but cannot find anything on them anywhere. 

Thanks for any info.

Judy
Title: Re: Schiff Family Holsten, Germany/Prussia
Post by: 77777 on Friday 30 March 12 23:44 BST (UK)
Hi Judy

I have sent you a personal message.