RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: 999WOODBURN on Saturday 26 November 11 03:47 GMT (UK)
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Hello Everyone,
This forum has been so helpful to me on another search, that I thought I would prevail to try and sort out another unknown in my wife's ancestral chart.
Wenydy's great grandmother was Jemima Howell, born in 1874 in Port Sorell, Tasmania (Tas. Reg. 1515). Jemima parents were shown as Thomas Howell and Margaret Wallace.
I am having a good deal of difficulty in tracking the origins of Thomas Howell and Margaret Wallace through the index records available on Ancestry.com.
I believe Thomas Howell's parents could have been Thomas Howell and Elizabeth Newport. Extensive information is contained on the attached sheets, but there are many questions. Not sure at all about Margaret Wallace.
It seems there could be a good deal of confusion about Sorell, near Hobart and Port Sorell on Tasmania's north coast near Devonport.
Has anyone else done any research on these people?
Brendan
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Hi Brendan
Don't know if you have the following
Margaret WALLACE married John GLEVES (GLEAVES or GLEEVES) Hobart 16 Oct 1854 772/1854 RGd 37
She was 21 he was 38
Children:=
Mary Ann born Spring Bay 9/11/1855 351/1856 Rgd 33
Elizabeth born Spring Bay 17/2/1858 1982/1858 Rgd 33
John born Spring Bay 6/6/1860 2159/1860 Rgd 33
James born Spring Bay 31/8/1862 1624/1862 Rgd 33
Philip born Spring Bay 30/11/1864 1774/1864 Rgd 33
William Thomas HOWELL born Port Sorell 3/10/1872 1464/1872 Rgd 33
Parents listed as Thomas HOWELL & Margaret GLEAVES
On the Index to Departures 1817 to 1867 (Archives of Tasmania)
List 2 Thomas'
Thomas Howell (born in the Tasmania) left for Melbourne from Launceston 28th April 1852 on board "Swan"
Thomas Howell left for New Zealand fron Launceston 29th Mary 1841 on board "Ullswater"
Regards
Genni
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Also found in the 'Convicts Application for permission to marry 1829-1857'
Gleves John (free) Margaret Wallace ('Blackfriar') 8/9/1854 Con52/1/7 P154
Cheers
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When Jemima was attempting to recover money from her brothers in 1916, they are named as Henry (Harry) and William. These two may be Thomas's sons by his first wife Elizabeth and second "wife" (I cannot see a marriage) Margaret WALLACE/GLEAVES.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/64787104?searchTerm=lapham%20howell&searchLimits=l-decade=191|||l-year=1916
Margaret's conduct record shows that she married Brian (Bryan) CASSIDY in 1852, then John GLE(A)VES in 1854.
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON41-1-30,269,255,L,80
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=5
I cannot see a registration for the CASSIDY child born in 1853.
Not sure what happened to Bryan CASSIDY - no death, freedom or absconding noted.
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON33-1-93,303,65,L,80
Debra :)
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Thanks to all who have replied.
I think we are getting somewhere.
Summarizing what I think may have happened is this:
Thomas Howell (son of Thomas Howell & Elizabeth Newport) married Elizabeth Smith on 20 May 1849 in Spring Bay (Tas 701). They had 7 children shown thus:
Male b. 18 Jan 1850 Brighton (Tas 870)
Male b. 7 Feb 1852 Spring Bay (Tas 519)
Elizabeth b 13 Oct 1853 Spring Bay (Tas 1023)
John b 23 Sep 1855 Spring Bay (Tas 1474)
Henry b 21 Mar 1858 Pt. Sorell (Tas 1923)
Charles b 21 Oct 1859 Spring Bay (Tas 2115)
Alice Howell b 9 Jan 1864 Spring Bay (Tas 1756)
John Gleaves married Margaret Wallace on 16 Oct 1854 in Hobart (Tas 772) They had 5 children shown thus:
Mary Ann b. 9 Nov 1855 Spring Bay (Tas 351) - possibly? (surname shown as Gleeson)
Elizabeth b. 17 Feb 1858 Spring Bay (Tas 1982)
John b. 6 Jun 1860 Spring Bay (Tas 2159)
James b. 31 Aug 1862 Spring Bay (Tas 1624)
Philip b. 30 Nov 1864 Spring Bay (Tas 1774)
Thomas Howell "married" Margaret Gleaves (nee Wallace) around 1865-66 - no record. They had 5 children shown thus:
Edward b. 27 Nov 1867 Pt. Sorell (Tas 1355)
Emma b. 8 Jun 1870 Pt. Sorell (Tas 1403)
William Thomas b. 3 Oct 1872 Pt. Sorell (Tas 1464) - mother's name Margaret Gleaves
Jemima Susan b. 5 Oct 1874 Pt. Sorell (Tas 1515)
Edwin James b. 2 Nov 1876 Pt. Sorell (Tas 1513)
There are several assumptions needed and unanswered questions in relation to the above scenario. Firstly what happened to Elizabeth Howell (nee Smith) and John Gleaves? The dates all fit and it seems likely that Margaret Wallace, wife of John Gleaves, and "wife" of Thomas Howell could be the same person. The mother's name is even shown as Margaret Gleaves on the birth record for William Thomas Howell. Additionally, as pointed out in a previous post, Jemima Lapham (nee Howell) sought to recover money from brother William and Henry Howell. This would link the two families.
Without going into it here, poor Jemima had a tragic life.
What I can't be sure about is that the Thomas Howell mentioned is indeed the son of Thomas Howell and Elizabeth Newport. Certainly all 5 of Thomas Howell and Elizabeth Newport's children are shown as registered at Pt. Sorell between 1825 and 1836.
What is the link between Spring Bay and Port Sorell? They are a good distance apart for those days. Curiously one of Thomas Howell and Elizabeth Smith's 7 children is shown registered at Pt. Sorell, with all the rest at or around Spring Bay.
At this stage, I haven't actually got an official copy of Jemima Howell's birth details. Can anyone tell me if this will give me further information - eg. her parent's ages?
There must be some more evidence out there somewhere!!
Sorry about such a long post, but thanks again to all who have taken an interest to date.
Brendan
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Hi Brendan,
according to the Tasmanian Pioneer Index Thomas Howell and Elizabeth Newports children were registered at Sorell not Port Sorell.
Sorell is down the bottom end of Tassie and Port Sorell up the top end of Tassie.
Spring Bay is now called Triabunna I think.
Six of the children born to Thomas Howell and Elizabeth Smith were registered at Spring Bay and the seventh at Sorell.The Male child born 18th Janurary 1850 was registered at Spring bay not Brighton.
There isn`t very much information on a birth certificate in 1874 from Tasmania :'(
This link will tell you whats on a birth certificate for that era.
http://www.justice.tas.gov.au/bdm/family_history/researching_family_trees
Johngirl
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Hmmm.....
So back to the drawing board then.
I am not an experienced genealogist so I will take all the advice I can get. I have been chasing up ancestral records for a couple of years now so I have found out how confusing and difficult it can be.
Most recently I have been accessing the Ancestry.com records for a lot of my information and it does seem a little weird that these records could be so fundamentally at odds with the Tasmanian Pioneer Index records. The Ancestry.com Australian BDM database, which I believe is held in the US somewhere, definitely shows Pt. Sorell for all the Howell / Newport children. In each case the registration number is quoted, so I thought I was on fairly safe ground.
Does anyone know how much faith can be put in any of these records?
Is there any way, other than ordering copies of certificates which can become quite expensive, of finding out what I can trust. Even with official certificates, I have learned that some of these are transcripts, so may not be 100% reliable.
Surely at some stage, someone must have sighted original records in putting together these index databases. I can understand how difficult it must be to interpret individual records, so there will be lots of discrepancies, but systematically interpreting Sorell for Port Sorell or vice versa seems difficult to understand.
Does this sort of thing crop up often?
Interested in what others think.
Brendan
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Hi Brendan,
You can view pre 1900`s certificates for Tasmania on microfilm at most major Libraries in Australia,this costs nothing unless you want a copy of it which usually only costs about twenty or thirty cents or less which the Library charge for the bit of paper and ink. ;D
The Tasmanian Pioneer Index does have some errors but it seems that A***try has made quite a few with our Tasmanian records.Not sure why they have transcribed the registration place wrongly.I don`t use A***try.com,I mainly use the Tasmanian Pioneer Indexes then check the microfilm records to see what information is on the actual record.
I`m not a experienced Geneaolgist either but I`m sure the microfilmed certificates are from the original records but if I`m wrong hopefully someone will correct me. :)
Johngirl
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Thanks for that advice.
We live in country WA, so I would probably need to make a trip to Perth to do as you suggest.
I will make some enquiries to see what's is available - having come this far, I feel I need to get to the bottom of the matter. It is really just about the only unresolved issue in putting together my wife's ancestral chart right back to the point where the individuals actually emigrated to Australia.
Brendan
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Hi Brendan,
I have a passing interest in the Howell/Newport families in that I am tracking Richard Newport who was the brother of Elizabeth Newport.
May I direct you to this website which deals with those families -
http://users.ncable.net.au/~jburrell/gen/newport/how_new2.html
The Newport and Howell families are indelibly etched as pioneer familes in the Pittwatter/Sorell areas of Tassie.
I have often scratched my head as to why there are references to Sorell and Port Sorell intertwined not just in references to these families but also others.
I can only conclude there has been some serious mis-transcription or translation !! It also seems that there are a lot of such errors in the Colonial Tasmanian Family Links database on the AOT site which is notorious for having wrong information in linking up fa miles incorrectly. This may be where the problem stems from....
Cheers,
Peter
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Thanks Peter,
Yes I had come across the reference you mentioned.
I am coming to the view that our Pt. Sorell Thomas Howell is not from the Howell/Newport association. There seems little doubt these people remained based around the Sorell area near Hobart and not Pt. Sorell on the north coast.
So I am still searching for a clue.
I have information that possibly both our Thomas Howell and Margaret Wallace died in Strahan on the west coast, so perhaps that will provide the answer.
Some very curious "errors" and conincidences in the various records though.
Seems like you need to be able to sight copies of the original records themselves and form your own conclusions, rather then relying on the different index databases. Once an error creeps in, it seems to propagate from one place to another accepted as the truth. Very frustrating.
Brendan
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Just a general call on my search for Thomas Howell and Margaret Wallace from the Port Sorell area of Tasmania around the 1870's.
Information has come to light (source uncertain) that they both may have died in Strahan on the west coast around 1900.
There is no record of their marriage.
From what I know the couple had the following children:
1. Edward Howell b. 27 Nov 1867 Pt. Sorell (Tas 1355) d. 21 Nov 1943 Burnie area
2. Emma Howell b. 8 Jun 1870 Pt. Sorell (tas 1403) d. ?
3. William Thomas Howell b. 3 Oct 1872 (Tas 1464) d. 29 Sep 1945 Devonport area; here the mother is shown as a Margaret Gleaves, rather than Margaret Wallace.
4. Jemima Susan Howell b. 5 Oct 1874 (Tas 1515) d. 1 May 1927 Melbourne, Vic.
5. Edwin James Howell b. 2 Nov 1876 (Tas 1513) d. ?
Jemima married at Waratah and it is said Emma married on the west coast as well.
There could have been another brother, Henry (or Harry). There are newspaper reports in 1916 of Jemima suing two brothers, William and Henry, for repayment of monies loaned to them.
Jemima is our link, but I sure would like to know where parents Thomas Howell and Margaret Wallace came from.
Brendan
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Hi Brendan
I was very interested in your post and the many replies as it may have solved a mystery as to what happened to my g/g/grandmother Margaret Wallace who married John Gleaves (shown as Gleves in the record) in 1854 and had five children with him between 1855 and 1864 - one of whom was my g/grandfather - James Gleaves born in Spring Bay 1862.
Your info provided a new clue and I researched Thomas Howell, of which there seems to be few and one of them is in the Tasmanian Reports of Crime 1868 (page 48) noting a Warrant was issued for his arrest as follows :
QUOTE
Buckland - On the 25th instant, by Thomas Cruttenden, Esquire, JP for the arresT of Thomas Howell, charged with deserting his wife and children, at Buckland, on the 16th ultimo.
Description. About 45 years old, 5 feet 8 inches, high, dark complexion, black hair, blue eyes, medium nose, wears his hat very much over his eyes, a Native, a good shearer and farm labourer. He absconded with Margaret Gleavis. They were last heard of in the service of Mr William Jones, River Forth, Port Sorrell.
UNQUOTE
I don't know if this was my g/g/grandmother who absconded with Thomas - but addresses for John Gleaves in later years indicate he was living alone around Sorrel/Maria Island/Spring Bay.
I haven't the time currently to research further but there is also a reference (IN THE HOBART GAZETTE - I think - on page 1417.)
QUOTE
ABSCONDED
Seven Mile Creek Probation Station on the 30th ultimo.
11,524 Thomas Howell, per Anson, tried at Bristol City Q.S. 18th July 1842, 7 years, rope-maker, 5 feet two, complexion fresh, hair dark brown, eyes light brown, age 18,native place Bristol, scar on right arm, scar near left eye. Reward 2/- or such lesser sum as may be determined upon by the convicting Magistrate.
UNQUOTE
Tasmanian Archives has numerous listings for Thomas Howells in the Hobart Town Gazettes and the Tasmania Post Office Directory but you may have researched and discounted all these to arrive at your conclusion.
Thanks for providing me with a new area for research for Margaret Wallace.
Linda
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Thank You Linda,
I have been absent from this forum for a while, but was so very pleased to be alerted to your valuable piece of evidence about Margaret Wallace.
I think this provides very solid proof that our Port Sorell Margaret Wallace, teamed up with Thomas Howell, was indeed the convict Margaret transported on the Blackfriar.
You have uncovered evidence that she absconded from her husband John Gleaves around the Sorell area AND that she was thought to be with Thomas Howell in the Port Sorell area.
Another definite convict on the chart!
I still don't know who the Thomas Howell was, but will get back to looking further one day.
I have been doing all this research on behalf of my wife, Wendy (Margaret Wallace was Wendy's g-g grandmother) and I am so very grateful for all the help this forum has given me. Wendy had been on at me to get on with the job for many months previously as she is battling cancer. Sadly, things took a turn dramatic turn for the worse just prior to Christmas with the cancer spreading to the brain. Her mental capacity is now severely affected so it is very difficult for her to concentrate and understand things any more.
BUT, we spent many weeks prior to her deterioration discussing and trawling through all the bits and pieces I had unearthed. It is a fascinating story with her heritage going right back to one set of g-g-g-g-g grandparents in 1806. The latest of any of the arrivals in her ancestry was a g-g grandfather around 1869 so she is a true-blue "Aussie".
There are still a few unknowns in the chart, but I will keep looking to see if I can fill those in - I think I owe it to her after the 35 years of love and devotion she has given me.
Thanks again to all contributers on the forum.
Brendan
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Hi, I am pretty new to all this, but have had a steep learning curve. I have managed to trace all of my maternal grandmother, Ada Lapham's ancestors back to their arrival in Tasmania. It has been a huge, but very rewarding job. I hope that some of what I share with you is useful to your persuit.
Cheers,
Cris
This item appeared in the Reports Of Crime in 1868.
Thomas Howell, about 45 years old (so born around 1823), 5’8” tall, dark complexion, black hair, blue eyes, medium nose, hat over eyes, a Native, a good shearer & farm labourer. He absconded with Margaret Gleavis. Last heard of in the service of Mr William Jones, River Forth, Port Sorell.
It ties Thomas Howell to parents Thomas Howell & Elizabeth (Newport) by age.
Thomas Howell (snr) marries Elizabeth Newport
Thomas had been married in England on 24 Dec 1814 at Old Swinford, Worcestershire, England, to Elizabeth Stoker, & had 2 children, Ann (1815) & Sarah (1817), christening dates at Worcestershire, England.
His second marriage was to Elizabeth Newport, solemnized in Sorell Town, Pitt Water, District of Gloucester in the County of Buckinghamshire, Tasmania, in the year 1826.
Thomas Howell, single man, Elizabeth Newport, single woman, both of the Parish of Pitt Water, were married in this School Room by Banns on 17 May 1826 by W Garrard, Chaplain. Thomas Howell signed and Elizabeth Newport made her X mark, in the presence of John Smith his X mark of Pitt Water and Sarah Newport her X mark of Pitt Water. (Sarah Newport was the younger sister of Elizabeth. John Smith, a shoemaker, was the father of Sarah's second child born 1 Jan 1827 at Pittwater and christened in this same school room which was the first church at Sorell.) Sorell located 26 km north-east of Hobart.
Thomas was a free blacksmith by the time they had their 5 children in the Sorell area: Thomas (jnr) (17/12/1825), Nancy (23/7/1826), Edward (26/11/1828), John (6/11/1830) and Phillip (6/2/1836). Sadly his wife,Elizabeth, died on 9/7/1836.Thomas Howell (snr) aged 53, married Elizabeth Williams (widow) age 49 at St George’s Church, Sorell on 17 May 1847 (Elizabeth Howell (born about 1800 England) died 25 Jan 1863 aged 64 years at Hobart of apolexy.) Thomas Howell (snr) died at Spring Bay on 23 Sep 1866 aged 73 yrs.
Thomas Howell (jnr), farm labourer, married Elizabeth Smith, spinster, on 20/5/1849, at St John the Baptist, Buckland, Spring Bay, a region on the mid-East coast of Tasmania.
Thomas Howell (jnr) and Elizabeth Smith had the following children: Male Howell (b 18/1/1850 Spring Bay), Male Howell(b 7/2/1852 Spring Bay), Elizabeth Howell (b 13 /10/1853 Spring Bay), John Howell(b 23/9/1855 Spring Bay), Henry Howell(21/3/1858 Sorell), Charles Howell (b 21/10/1859 Spring Bay), & Alice (Margaret) Howell(b 9/1/1864 Spring Bay)
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following up from my last reply
This next bit is what I have found out about Margaret Wallace
Samuel Ferguson, Margaret Wallace & Jane Wallace were tried for burglariously entering the dwelling of Robert Horner at Markethill on the night of 21st February, & stealing 29 yards of Orleans cloth, & a large quantity of calico & worsted. Margaret & Jane were also charged with receiving the goods, knowing them to have been stolen. Fergusen pleaded guilty. The case was clearly established against the prisoners, & the jury without much deliberation returned a verdict of guilty. Samuel & Margaret were sentenced to 10 years transportation, & Jane to 2 years imprisonment. (Weekly Vindicator, 16/3/1850)
The Grangegorman Prison register shows Margaret to have brown hair, fair complexion, 4ft9 inches, single, able to read, “p” religion, no trade, & aged 13. Her prison number was 2416, received there at 4pm 25/9/1850., after a trial at Co Armagh on 6/3/1850.She had no prior convictions. Margaret was transported on the Blackfriar, which sailed 9/1/1851.
Margaret Wallace arrived in Tasmania on 29/5/1851 on the convict ship the Blackfriar after departing from Kingston on 24/1/1851. She was only 15, so born around 1836, 4’10”, a single, Protestant, Nurse girl from County Armagh in Ireland. She was described as able to read & write, ruddy complexion, round head, round visage, low forehead, brown eyebrows, grey eyes, small nose, 2 small scars on the back of her left hand, & freckled. She was convicted for selling a stolen cashmere on 6/3/1850 & sentenced to transportation to Australia for 10 years. She was reported at the time as being very quiet & single.
The Blackfriar ship was built at Sunderland 1848. 621 tons. When Margaret was on board in 1851, there were 261 female prisoners, with 1 death. It is understood there were also 3 free female passengers amongst the 152 passengers.
On 16/2/1852, Margaret married Bryan Cassidy, a convict who had arrived on the Blenheim, from Dublin. He was a farm labourer who was convicted for stealing a donkey. His conduct & character were reported as good.
She gave birth to a legitimate baby on 26/9/1853 at the Cascade facility, Jane.
Bryan Cassidy’s last entry on his record sheet was on 29/3/1853, when it was reported that he was absent from musters. Perhaps parenthood didn’t agree with him?
The Cascades Female Factory was purpose-built in 1828 and operated as a convict facility until 1856. It was intended to remove women convicts from the negative influences and temptations of Hobart, and also to protect society from what was seen as their immorality and corrupting influence. The Factory was located, however, in an area of damp swamp land, and with overcrowding, poor sanitation and inadequate food and clothes, there was a high rate of disease and mortality among its inmates.
Margaret was also at Brickfields & Newtown Farm female factories.
Her locations & employment were as follows:
5/6/1851 BF
30/6/1851 New Town Road with Dr Huish
3/8/1851 NTF with Miss McCullagh
23/1/1852 NTRoad with Dr Huish
19/10/1852 HC (Hobart Cascades?
27/2/1854 HC
30/2/1854 Elizth St Mr Hyams
After a Marriage permission (needed for convicts) was approved, 21 year old (actually by calculation she was only 18, but possibly put her age up to be able to marry) Margaret married 38 year old John Gleves (Gleaves/Glevis), waterman, on 16/10/1854 in the Church of St Joseph, Hobart town. They were both listed as having been widowed.
Margaret’s Levels of freedom were as follows:
30/10/1854 Conditional Pardon,
31/10/1854 Ticket of Leave granted
19/3/1855 Conditional Pardon recommended
20/3/1855 Conditional Pardon recommended
21/2/1856 Conditional Pardon granted upon condition
26/2/1856 Conditional Pardon approved
6/3/1860 Free by Servitude
Margaret & John went on to have 5 children all registered in Spring Bay, Tasmania, namely: Mary Ann (24/1/1855), Elizabeth (17/2/1858), John (6/6/1860), James William (31/8/1862) & Phillip (30/11/1864).
cheers,
Cris
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More about Margaret Wallace
Port Sorell is an area slightly west of Devonport on the mid north coast of Tasmania.The birth records that I am about to show all have the father as Thomas Howell, & the mother as Margaret Wallace, & they are all registered in Port Sorell. I could not find a marriage certificate for Thomas & Margaret, which isn’t surprising if Thomas was on the run from his first family. I haven’t yet been able to establish what happened to John Gleaves either. Perhaps more pieces of the gigantic jigsaw puzzle are yet to be revealed!
The children of Thomas Howell & Margaret Wallace were: Edward (29/11/1867, Emma (8/6/1870), William Thomas (3/10/1872) Jemima Susan (5/10/1874), and Edwin James (2/11/1876).
On the birth register of William Thomas Howell, it states that Margaret’s former surname was Gleaves, so proof that I have the right Margaret Wallace.
Margaret Munro was mentioned as the grandmother who notified the birth of Edwin Chas Wallace Lapham(son of Jemima Howell & George Lapham) in 1895. Margaret Wallace had married Peter Munro on 26/12/1888
George Lapham, son of John & Hannah, married Jemima Howell at Waratah, Tasmania on 20/1/1891 when he was 22 & she was 16 in the presence of her sister Emma.
They had a family of 6 children: Emma Margaret (13/2/1892) at Waratah, John Thomas (19/4/1893) Waratah, Edwin Chas Wallace (6/2/1895) at Waratah, Linda Lyell Mary (27/12/1896) at Strahan, George Phillip Howel (6/7/1898) at Lyell & Nelly Ann (22/8/1899) at Lyell.
George worked as a miner & a labourer, based in Waratah, Mt Lyall, and Zeehan & was a keen contestor in wood chopping, as was his father John. The Lapham men were also involved in pigeon racing and numerous community activities.
Sadly George was another Lapham robbed of his life by a work accident.
Hope it all helps,
Cheers,
Cris
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Thank you so much for all this interesting information Cris.
I haven't been researching the family tree that much lately, but not too long ago the interest flared up again, mainly with respect to another branch quite unrelated to the Tasmanian connection.
I have a fair bit of information about the Howell / Wallace branch hidden away in a file somewhere, so I will take the time to check through and compare with what you have reported - you obviously have been very busy digging out all those details!
Thanks again, Brendan
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Your welcome.:)