Hi All
The full information on the marriage certificate states:
Stephen King
Parish of St Mary Denham Court
Widower
Bertha Tandy
Parish of St Mary Denham Court
Widow
30 May 1853
Parish of St Mary Denham Court in the County of Cumberland
George Vidal, Chaplain
This is in the Penrith area, and Stephen and Bertha spent there entire lives in Mulgoa until Stephen's death.
Father's name was George Glover and mother was Amelia Gorham. Bertha was born 3 years before her parents were born in 1833 in Wittersham, Kent, England. Arrived in Australia with the family in 1837. Younger brother George born 1836 also in Wittersham.and
Brothers Henry born 1838 and Theodore 1839 after arrival in Australia.
... marriage certificate for Bertha is from the NSW BDM. She is listed as Bertha Tandy marrying Stephen King in 1853. On the marriage certificate is states her as being Bertha Tandy - widow married on 30 May 1853 to Stephen King - widower. Marriage Certificate Number 153 Vol. 39C.and
On Stephen King's death certificate it states Bertha's name as being Bertha Tandy formerly Glover.
I suspect because the first marriage occurred before registration became compulsory (which was 1856), it may well be difficult to find..
This is in the Penrith area, and Stephen and Bertha spent there entire lives in Mulgoa until Stephen's death.
We do know that at some time prior to going to Mulgoa, that Bertha and the family were in the Cabramatta area which is a guesstimate only for the first marriage taking place there. It's entirely possible that it took place elsewhere - also possible that it took place in Mulgoa as well. She was certainly young given she was only 20 when she married Stephen (her second marriage).
Registration of BDM's wasn't compulsory until 1856 - so I may not find anything about the elusive Mr Tandy at all unfortunately. Stephen King died 1 September 1860 in Mulgoa. Bertha then returned to Morpeth where her daughter was living, and Bertha remarried in 1875 to a Charles Coxhead. Bertha died in 1913 and is buried in Rookwood Cemetery in Sydney.
Hi
This at the very least may give 1 other surname to search
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/704978?searchTerm=tandy aboriginal&searchLimits=l-decade=185
Muss
the witnesses to Bertha’s and Stephen’s marriage, they were an Isaac Dawson of Denham Court (I believe he was around 13 years old at the time but can’t be sure) and a Catherine Hemming and Frank Blomfield.
Hi
No, I have no confirmation as to where George was living after he remarried. I've not concentrated on that part of my research as yet.
I've been trying to find Bertha's Mr Tandy for a lot of years. An interesting suggestion re: Bertha's eligibility to call herself a widow, if the elusive Mr Tandy disappearance from the records might be something as easy as suggested.
Divorce wasn't available to the 'common folk' until the late 1800's because it was expensive, messy and considered scandalous for the time. Convicts were able to remarry (and were encouraged to do so) after they had been in Australia for 7 years as part of their rehabilitation, but only where their spouses had remained overseas. In Stephen King's case, the application he made in 1832 to have his family brought to Australia was turned down and he didn't marry Bertha until 1853, which was some 4 years after he received a full pardon.
If there was a law about convicts having to wait a minimum 7 years - was there a law in existence at the time about 'common folk' having wait if their spouses deserted them perhaps?
Re: The Blomfield family - Stephen King worked for a period of time both before and his marriage to Bertha as a clerk and a servant. I'm wondering based on your information now, if he actually worked for the Blomfield family.
Wow - thank you. You've given me some absolutely brilliant leads here. Thank you so much.
Cheers
Caryn
Hi
Just quickly - I can address a couple issues - if I have mistakenly typed Bertha's birthdate as 1883 instead 1833, that is clearly an error. She was born 1833.
:) Why was Bertha at Glebe in 1863, I thought you mentioned they went from Mulgoa to Morpeth, I didn’t realise they went to Glebe after Mulgoa and before Morpeth ....
:) The Sands Directory for 1867 does have a George GLOVER in Glebe St, Glebe, so is there any connection with that place and Bertha's death some 50 years later, also at Glebe?
I have been following this thread and my head is spinning :D but I think you might be getting near the history. ;)
Have a look at this link and let me know what you think. :-\
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12891074
Stephen KING, widowed, marriage place of Ingleburn, on 30 May 1853 to Bertha Tandy, widowed.
AND
Stephen KING, widowed, marriage place of St Mary, Denham Court on 13 May 1853, to Bertha TANDY, widowed
Source : Historical Records, M00381-9 and M31026-3 at this link : https://familysearch.org/
hi
This Thomas Tandy had the Kentish Hotel Glebe did he have a son or brother ?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13025257?searchTerm= tandy brisbane&searchLimits=l-decade=185
Stephen KING, widowed, marriage place of Ingleburn, on 30 May 1853 to Bertha Tandy, widowed.
AND
Stephen KING, widowed, marriage place of St Mary, Denham Court on 13 May 1853, to Bertha TANDY, widowed
Source : Historical Records, M00381-9 and M31026-3 at this link : https://familysearch.org/
Hi
I tend to take some of what I find on familysearch with a grain of salt sometimes as a lot of the records have been submitted by people who have uploaded/submitted their family trees to the LDS. Quite of lot of which have unsubstantiated records. That's not to say there are not two parish records for Stephen and Bertha's marriage of course. That is, of course, another avenue to investigate i.e. the parish records to see what is recorded there.
Cheers
Caryn
Am looking for information on the first marriage of my 3xgreat grandmother Bertha Glover. She married for the first time somewhere around 1850-1852 to a Mr Tandy - most likely I think in the Denham Court area of Sydney.
When Bertha re-married in 1853 to Stephen King, she was listed on that marriage certificate as being a widow.
I have been so far unable to find any records or information relating to her first marriage and would like to be able to identify her first husband and trace any descendants.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thank you.
hi
This Thomas Tandy had the Kentish Hotel Glebe did he have a son or brother ?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13025257?searchTerm= tandy brisbane&searchLimits=l-decade=185
Thanks to you all for trying... :)
One likely candidate might be a convict John Tandy, who arrived on the David Malcolm on 13 May 1845, but I need to track where he went after he arrived in Australia.
Not knowing how old the elusive 'Mr Tandy' was when he and Bertha married, of course, or even if he was already in Australia at the time, I'm looking at a few convict arrivals.
If John Tandy was in the Denham Court area at the same time as Bertha in the early 1850's, might nearly have a winner.....or not.... :(
Cheers
Caryn
Stephen was accidentally killed in 1861 and I'm currently also waiting for information to come from the NSW State Library on the coroners report to say exactly where and how. If it happened at work then that might give me a clue, but the poor sod died on his 61st birthday.... :'(
Burton Tandy you reckon majm.... very interesting possibility. Of the Burton Tandy's I can find so far (brother to Emily Tandy), they all have him being born around 1824 and dying in 1861 - unmarried - after taking part in the American Civil War.
Hi
This Thomas Tandy had the Kentish Hotel Glebe did he have a son or brother ?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13025257?searchTerm= tandy brisbane&searchLimits=l-decade=185
Hi
I have the answer to the children of Harriet and George
Empire 8 june 1855 - Court Case - Harriet Grace Glover wife of George Glover coachman in the employ of Mr Hosking at Vaucluse - has 6 children- one a daughter named Emily
Muss
That's the dilemma ... Infant and pre civil registration ie a burial and not a dc ... even though it is 1862 and civil registrations commence 1856 for NSW ... so Caryn would need to contact the current holders of that particular set of PRs to see if there are further details or try to find MI at the cemetery ... Hence my headache
Am looking for information on the first marriage of my 3xgreat grandmother Bertha Glover. She married for the first time somewhere around 1850-1852 to a Mr Tandy - most likely I think in the Denham Court area of Sydney.
When Bertha re-married in 1853 to Stephen King, she was listed on that marriage certificate as being a widow.
I have been so far unable to find any records or information relating to her first marriage and would like to be able to identify her first husband and trace any descendants.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thank you.
Hi Caryn
I think George and Herriot/ Harriet went to NZ not George and Amelia
Emily may have married Andrew Brown 1862 and died 1878 Sydney
I have not looked for any of the other children ( who I think may have been
born in NZ)
Glad to help
Muss
The fellow you’ve referred to majm, who died in Walgett in 1883, was Theodore Glover, Bertha’s youngest brother. Born 1839 and died 1883. I have his death certificate confirming his parents. Most certainly not Bertha’s child. :D Good grief, she would have been an insanely young mum...............
So, err ... who was this chap, surnamed Glover whose death was registered at Walgett in 1883?
Theodore GLOVER, son of George and Amelia... # 10267 Perhaps he was Bertha's babe raised in his youth by George and Harriet Grace, and he knew that Harriet was not his mum.... Oh dear, I am speculating again... ::) PMost likely it is just a co-incidence in the names ...
Oops, adding and perhaps I am also getting off topic ... Sorry...
[/quoteTrove searching gives the chap at Walgett 1883 as a drover aged 58 and married so not born 1839 so more likely he was born to another couple named George and Amelia Glover around 1825....
Hi All
The NZ BDM’s allows a search for birth’s from 1840 onwards, so any children born to Herriot/Harriot and George Glover, I would have thought should appear if they were registered, yet none seem to appear. Seems the NZ BDM’s are as frustrating to search as our own. :-\
I’m curious as to why, if Thomas George Tandy is Bertha’s son; his birth is in the registers and not that of a daughter, if Mary Ann is a potential daughter. I’ve ordered both this birth certificate and the NZ marriage certificate of Bertha and Thomas Tandy – so hang on to your hats! No idea how long they will take to arrive though.
It’s quite feasible as majm suggests that Herriot/Harriot and George looked after the children when they returned to Australia, when Bertha married Stephen King.
However, if we look at Bertha having her daughter between the years of 1848-1851 (as a guide – in 1848 Bertha would have been 15 years old) – this would indicate that Mary Ann was very young when she married in 1859?? Not sure about this.
The article majm referred to from the Evening Post also referred to Mary Ann as the ‘half caste daughter of a Swede named Thomas Tandy’. A different Thomas Tandy perhaps? Or maybe the same Thomas Tandy but a different mother perhaps? And I suspect this is where that earlier marriage to Maria Manaha might come in. I suspect this might be Mary Ann’s mother rather than Bertha?
Then there is the issue of what happened to Thomas George Tandy and where he went? The Thomas Tandy recorded as dying in 1862 – if this is the same Thomas Tandy – why would he be recorded as an infant? He would have been 12 years old in 1862. A different Thomas Tandy perhaps? George and Harriot were known to be in Morpeth around this time.
If that is the entire Glover family returning in August 1852 that would terrific (interesting it says 9 children because by 1855 they have 6 children – accounting for young Theo’s death of course), however, I have no idea who the children of George and Harriot all are as I don’t seem to be able to find out there names. Emily I know due the details of the court case being recorded. Emma – majm has found and that was a terrific find. And Theophilus was another great find too – well done. The NSW BDM doesn’t record the parent’s names sadly for Theo's death.
The Emma Jane Glover born 1842 who married Alexander John Kemp Picard (born in Scotland) is the daughter of George Glover and Harriet Grace Champion. She had 4 sons and 5 daughters with him. This is the Emma majma has found.
Re: the question, how sure am I that it was George, Bertha and 2 children on board the Augusta Jessie? I could pose exactly the same question? How sure are we that it was George, Harriot and children on board the Magnet going to New Zealand? It’s known that shipping records from back in those times sometimes recorded only the name of the husband, and sometimes then the name of the wife as Mrs ?? and then only the number children travelling (sometimes listed a 1 M and/or 1 F etc, or just one son or one daughter etc). The passenger list for the Magnet only records – Sydney (12 March 1840) to Waikouaiti under Captain Bruce – Glover Mr G – Glover family.
The first regular shipload of settler to Otago, sent by Johnny Jones to form a settlement at Waikouaiti. (I have no idea who Johhny Jones was).
Just as a side not - interestingly it also lists amongst the passengers – Chiefs (5) New Zealanders and ‘A Whaling Gang’.
The source is ‘The Commercial Journal dated 14 March 1840’, however, the family is listed elsewhere specifying exactly how many children there were (and I think the list majm provided had them listed as George Glover, wife, son and daughter).
I can be as sure as I am only based on being told of the contents of treasured family documents being held very close to someone’s heart that they are not going to part with for neither love nor money. :-\
However, back to the topic at hand – I wait with baited breath for the certificates from New Zealand, particularly for the marriage certificate of one Thomas Tandy and Bertha Gorham. Although I'm most curious as to why (if this is her) she would havr married under the name of Gorham, when both she and her brother George had taken the Glover name when her parents married. Given civil registration didn't commence in the UK until 1837 ordering these birth certificates isn't going to be possible, so a friendly bit of family 'coercement' might be in order. ;D
Cheers
Caryn
Hi All
Well, some certificates have arrived, however, not the certificates from NZ to solve the mystery of the elusive Mr Tandy as yet.
Amelia Glover's certificate is a certificate of burial, and so doesn't contain any information about her parents or children. Only the date of death, burial, where the ceremony was performed ( Parish of St Lawrence, Sydney, County of Cumberland) and that the 'Quality of Profession' was 'Emigrant Husband Coachman'. I've not heard of that as a profession for a woman before?
Theodore Glover's death certificate - death 6 August 1883 (the Theodore buried in Walgett cemetery and whom I had always attributed as a son of George and Amelia) - turns out to be one of the sons of George and Harriet. Born in about 1847/8 he died from acute bronchitis. It states on the certificate that he was born in New Zealand, and has been in NSW for 30 years prior to his death. Also says that his father George Glover was 'settler - Otago' and mother was 'Amelia Harriet Grace Champion'.
George Glover's death certificate states (and now finally it clarifies exactly how many children George and Harriet). In order of birth - Elizabeth, Emma Jane, Emily, Ambrose, Theodore, Amelia and Theophilus.
This reconciles then with the '9 children' they returned to Australia with in 1852. 7 children of their own, plus Bertha and George jnr from George's first marriage to Amelia Gorham. George's certificate also mentions living in NZ for 12 years, 19 years in NSW and burial at Morpeth.
George's death certificate mentions his first marriage to Amelia, however, her surname is incorrectly transcribed as Gordon. It only lists Bertha and George as children of that marriage. There is absolutely no mention of any other children whatsoever. What is also lists is two separate reference numbers that I am not able to determine:
84M K166/84 and 14363/83NEWC
I am assuming these should be found in the NSW BDM's, but I have so far been unable to find them (unless I'm looking in the wrong place.
So, until the NZ certificates arrive to provide a bit more info.
Cheers
Caryn
Hi Muss
I'm getting rather excited to say the least myself! George's death certificate confirms they were most definitely in NZ, and your finding of Bertha's marriage to Thomas Tandy was just an absolute blinder to say the least! I'm so terribly greatful and I'm absolutely hanging for those certificates to arrive... ;D
majm - I haven't mentioned Henry as George's death certificate only mentioned Bertha and George jnr as being the only 2 children of the marriage of the marriage between him and Amelia Gorham. And there was no mention of a Henry as being the son of him and Harriot. I'm going to have to do a bit more investigating of Henry to see if he truly belongs to George Glover and one of his wives.
This family's story has turned out to be something most unexpected!
Cheers all
Caryn
The NSW BDM has that death recorded as being registered at Hay, NSW with the age recorded as 30 years old. Entirely possible - the age is only 2 years out from what is recorded on George's death certificate (and given that article specifically states he was a resident of NZ).
Hi Neil
The National Archives holds over 45 works by one Thomas George Glover (and copies can be purchased) - painted from all over New Zealand, Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne, Tasmania and Indonesia. Seems Tom Glover was a bit of a wanderer in his time, but a wonderful artist. His sketches and watercolours give a brilliant insight into the areas in the late 1870's - they're absolutely fantastic.
Could it possibly be Thomas George Tandy who later became known as Thomas George Glover? I have absolutely no idea, but what a mind boggling concept? I can't find any information on this artist as to when he was born or died (at least not in NSW and he doesn't appear to have died in NZ either). I can find plenty of information about his art, and there are plenty of his sketches and watercolours to view online.
As you say - it might have nothing to do with anything - but entirely possible if he was born in NZ about 1850 - and the paintings were all done around 1878-1879?????? Who knows? Clutching at straws is all I got at this point... ::)
Worth eliminating him if we can find out a bit more about him.
Cheers
Caryn
.....Oh Caryn ... that is a tad disappointing ... you mentioned National Archives but the link is to the National Library of Australia... Two very different organisations ...... PS Have you checked the websites for the National Archives of Australia? OR Archway New Zealand?
Hi Muss
Yes thank you - I have this article.
Cheers
Caryn