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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: banksiapat on Monday 21 November 11 02:27 GMT (UK)
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Hi there,
I'm looking for information regarding Caroline Street, married to Alexander Howison Vesey in Exeter 26/12/1870. They then moved to Scotland. She is my great grandmother. I have only been able to find a Caroline Street, born 1853 at Ottery St Mary, Devon but no details regarding her parents. Not much progress since then. Any help or ideas will be greatly appreciated.
Much thanks
banksiapat
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Welcome to rootschat banksiapat.
Not sure if this is the same Caroline Street b Ottery St Mary that you have but there is one who appears in the 1871 1861 census, living in Ottery St Mary, with parents Thomas and Elizabeth and siblings. But age does not tally with an 1853 birth. Doing a few sums tells me that the Caroline Street in the 1871 1861 census was born in 1863 as she was aged 8. Can you clarify that the Caroline you have born in 1853 is correct? The Caroline in the 1871 1861 is obviously not yours if she married in 1870. :-\
Do you have Caroline's marriage certificate? This will give her father's name and occupation, hopefully her age, and confirm that you are following the correct Caroline.
Where did you get the information about Caroline Street b 1853?
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Hi Ruskie
Thank you for such a prompt response. I found 1853 Caroline on Genes Reunited but since I'm not a paid subscriber I was unable to view the certificate. I thought she may have been a possibility for an 1870 marriage. This is my father's side of the family, I have no paperwork concerning them at all and I don't believe my cousins have kept any old papers.
Thanks
banksiapat
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If you definitely know for a fact that Caroline Street is your great grandmother, and that she married Alexander Vesey In Exeter in 1870, then you should really purchase the marriage certificate.
Marriages Dec 1870
STREET Caroline
VESEY Alexander
District:Exeter
Volume:5b
Page: 213
Using the above details you can purchase this certificate here:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
The cost is £9.25 and it's quick and easy to order online using a credit card. Are you in Australia? If so the exchange rate at the moment makes purchasing certificates quite reasonable.
It's easy to follow the wrong people if research isn't backed up by some certificates.
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Hi I cannot locate on FindMyPast the Caroline b 1863 in Otterey St Mary, could it be a bad transcription for 18, as their is a Caroline b 1853 with Father Thomas and Mother Elizabeth in Ottery St Mary on the 1861 Census Ref RG09/1378/14/23 on the 1881 Scotland census, Caroline states b c 1853 Exeter.
Keyboard86
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No the
1871 1861 quite clearly reads 8. There is an 11 year old sibling above her and a 5 year old below ... :-\
I've just been looking at births for Caroline Streets, and there are quite a few of them. This looks to be the one the OP is referring to:
Births Jun 1853
Street Caroline
Honiton
5b
33
(Honiton coveres Ottery St Mary)
ADDED: Aahhh!!! I mean 1861! She was married by 1871 .... :-[ I have amended my errors.
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Hi Ruskie, in 1871 Caroline is a Vesey b 1853 with parents Thomas and Elizabeth also her daughter Jessie Vesey aged 3 months, residing at Taleford, Ottery St Mary Census Ref RG10/2041/0/13
In case Banksiapat cannot locate via reference, here is 1871:-
Thomas Street 59
Elizabeth 53
Eliza 21
John 11
Caroline Vesey 18 Daughter/Married occ Soldiers Wife
Jessie Vesey 3 months Grandaughter
James Black 1 Grandson b Middlesex, London.
Keyboard86
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Well that must be her. My messing up the census, messed up my calculations. Sorry everyone. :-[
So the correct family has been found on the 1861 and 1871 censuses. :P And the marriage and birth in 1853 in Honiton seem to fit. Phew.
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I wonder if this might be Caroline's parent's marriage?
Marriages Dec 1837
Hall Peter Honiton 10 171
HAYMAN Elizabeth Honiton 10 171
Jeffery Bridget Honiton 10 171
Lang Jane Honiton 10 171
Lee John Honiton 10 171
SALTER Sarah Honiton 10 171
STREET John Honiton 10 171
STREET Thomas Honiton 10 171
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On the 1851 census the family have what appears to be their eldest child age 11, so born 1840, which tallies with an 1838 marriage.
1851
Taleford?
Ottery St Mary
Thomas Street head mar 39 ag lab b Feniton
Elizabeth wife 34 b Ottery
Mary Ann daur 11
Fanny 9
Tom son 4
Eliza daur 1
(all children b Ottery)
HO107/1864/74/2
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Hi Ruskie the 1841, makes that marriage look a good un!
1851 Census
Thomas Street 39 occ Ag Lab b Feniton
Elizabeth 34
Mary Ann 11
Fanny 9
Tom 4
Eliza 1
Residing at Taleford, Ottery St Mary
Census Ref HO107/1864/74/2
1841 Census
Thomas Street 29 occ Ag Lab
Elizth 24 occ Silk Thrower
Mary 1
Ann HAYMAN 28 occ Silk Thrower
Residing at Jesu Street, Ottery St Mary
Census Ref HO107/237/7/9
Keyboard86
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That all fits together very nicely indeed. It's so handy when the family has rellies staying. :)
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Ruskie and keyboard86
I'm salaaming all over the place here! Beggar the housework this is far more interesting.
Thanks once again.
banksiapat
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Hi there
As Caroline ended her days in Scotland I checked SP for her death entry as Scottish certificates state both parents names. This brings up an anomaly:
Caroline Vesey, widow of Alexander Vesey, Coachman, d.1/11/1935 at 10h 30m A.M. at 65 Dumbarton Road, Glasgow aged 83.
dau. of Thomas Street, Labourer (deceased) and Elizabeth Agnes Street, M.S. (i.e. formerly) Webber (deceased).
Informant was A. (?) Vesey, son (present) of 578 Dumbarton Road, Glasgow.
Cause of Death is difficult to read - A....... Scleoris (?) Cardiac Dilatation.
Thought I'd better post this as mother not shown as an Elizabeth Hayman - is it possible that Thomas Street married twice? Or was Elizabeth Hayman a widow when they married?
Annette
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Annette, that cause of death may be "arteriosclerosis".
That anomaly is definitely worth looking at, but it can happen that the informant does not know the maiden surname of their grandmother, particularly if it was a son who was the informant. ;)
It may be worth checking Caroline's husband Alexander's parentage in case the informant got the maiden surnames of the maternal grandmothers mixed up. ;)
The puzzle would be solved by purchasing Caroline's 1853 birth certificate, but I would say that the clincher is that 1841 census which shows an Ann Hayman staying with the family.
Elizabeth a widow when she married Thomas? A possible explanation ....
I'm also a bit concerned about the middle name of Agnes, which isn't included on her marriage or the censuses. :-\
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Hi Annette and Ruskie
Thank you for your additional help. I have ordered a copy of the marriage certificate and sent an email to my cousins in Scotland to see if they know anything at all that could throw light on the names. Caroline's parents-in-law were Archibald Vesey and Janet (Howison) so no Webber there.
May not be able to follow this line further until the certificate arrives, hopefully before Christmas.
banksiapat
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Hi Banksiapat, hope you don't mind me including another family member into this thread, but I was curious as to who the James Black aged 1 b Middlesex was on the 1871? Here he is in 1881:-
1881 census
James Black 43 occ Painter b Scotland
Mary A 41 b Ottery St Mary
Thomas R 11 b London Middx
James L 11 b London Middx
Isabella M 7 b London Middx
Residing at 70, Carlton Street, St Pancras, London, Middx
Census ref RG11/217/137/81
Keyboard86
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Hi Keyboard86,, Annette and Ruskie
The certified copy of the marriage certificate for Caroline and Alexander arrived this afternoon. It shows the fathers names but not the mothers.. The witnesses were Thomas Webber and Eliza Street. I know so little about the family that I have no idea about James Black, keyboard 86. I have the parents of both now and am chasing Archibald Vesey and Mary Scott, Alexanders parents. So far my ancestors are all Scots (on my father's side) except Caroline so it will be interesting looking for the English connections.
It's really good when you can follow the parents through and at some stage I will have to enter all the offspring that I know about. Someone else may be researching this line also.
Thanks again for your help.
Happy Christmas to you all!
Banksiapat
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English certificates don't show mothers names on a marriage certificate unfortunately.
You don't say so, but I'm assuming the certificate confirms that that her father's name was indeed Thomas Street - that being so, who on earth was witness Thomas Webber (Webber being the surname given for her mother on Caroline's death certificate). What a tangled web!
Annette
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Hi I have just read this....Caroline Street is my great great Grandmother maybe another great in there lol...I just came across this info on her yesterday.....would love to know more about her ...her daughter or granddaughter Jessie Vesey is my Great Gran...buried in my home town of Gourock....Angela :)
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Any chance her mother remarried (to a Webber) and the person who registered the death didn't realise that her step father wasn't her father (and so wasn't her maiden name?)
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Hi Angela,
I am very sorry but Banksiapat's email notifications are no longer working :'(
Regards
Sarah
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Caroline only married once..died in 1930s in Glasgow aged 89. Her mother though Elizabeth,I have no idea...but will be looking for some more info if Ancestery has another free weekend.I might subscribe as the free info for Scottish records is pretty limited. Scotlandspeople is fab, but costs mount up. If you want info of Carolines and Jessies life in Scotland I will post it here for you ..Angela
PS Alexander Howisons Vesey mother was Janet Howison...his father Archibald, spent much of his life as a butler...
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So after all this, we still don't know Caroline's birthday and the only one who does can no longer be contacted . . .
Caroline is my great-great grandmother through her daughter Jeanie. I have family pics and all kinds of info, but still can't find Caroline's birthday beyond March to June 1853.
???
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Hi Gordon,
Welcome to RootsChat.
Yes I am sorry but we have not been able to contact banksiapat, the email address they used to register with is no longer working. I have tried to search online but nothing came up with the email used.
There is a possible person, but can not be sure it is the right one but will make contact. Update: Sorry it was the wrong person
Regards
Sarah
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Hi again just wondering if this could be the baptism of Caroline :-
Caroline STREAT 17th April 1853 Escot, St Philip & St James abode Taleford
Father Thomas occ Labourer Mother Elizabeth
Keyboard86
Taleford is part of Ottery St Mary
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Hi again , the marriage of Thomas Street aged 21 occ Labourer Father Thomas Street occ Labourer to Elizabeth Hayman 21 Father Charles Hayman occ Weaver 7th November 1837 Ottery St Mary Witnesses the marks of Ann Hayman and John Street
The couple also had a son baptised Charles Hayman Street 14th February 1838 Ottery St Mary who was buried as an infant 28th October 1838 Ottery St Mary as Charles Street
Keyboard86
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Hi again I do not know who the Elizabeth Agnes Street is, as Elizabeth Hayman was baptised 16th March 1817 Ottery St Mary Father Charles occ Weaver Mother Sarah residence Workhouse
Keyboard86
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Hi I have just read this....Caroline Street is my great great Grandmother maybe another great in there lol...I just came across this info on her yesterday.....would love to know more about her ...her daughter or granddaughter Jessie Vesey is my Great Gran...buried in my home town of Gourock....Angela :)
Hi all, Jessie Vessey was baptised 17th March 1872 Whimple as Caroline Jessie VESEY Father Alexander occ Coachman Mother Caroline
Keyboard86
PS in 1871 Alexander Vesey aged 27 b Scotland is a Private in the 50th ( The Queens Own) Regiment of Foot Service no: 839 at Farnham , Surrey in 1871
Census ref RG10/819/43/31
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English certificates don't show mothers names on a marriage certificate unfortunately.
You don't say so, but I'm assuming the certificate confirms that that her father's name was indeed Thomas Street - that being so, who on earth was witness Thomas Webber (Webber being the surname given for her mother on Caroline's death certificate). What a tangled web!
Annette
Funnily enough a Thomas Webber married Fanny Street June qtr 1867 Exeter 5b 207
1871 census
Thomas Webber 28
Fanny 29
Lionel F 1
Residing Village, Whimple, St Thomas Devon
Census ref RG10/2050/115/3
Keyboard86
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Keyboard! You're amazing! :o
People will write songs about you!
Is there any way I can see the sources you saw for replies 25 and 26 (from the bottom of page three)?
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GordoninMexico
You will long have this info, I'm sure. Caroline was 23 when she married 26/12/1870. I don't have a copy of her birth certificate so am unable to give you her birth date. So sorry for not answering before - IT problems and then life just got in the way! My daughter told me over the weekend that there were unanswered messages here.
Kind regards
banksiapat
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Hi Banksiapat,
Oooh Welcome back :D I have just sent you a pm if you would like me to update your contact details.. All updated.
Regards
Sarah
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Hi again just wondering if this could be the baptism of Caroline :-
Caroline STREAT 17th April 1853 Escot, St Philip & St James abode Taleford
Father Thomas occ Labourer Mother Elizabeth
Keyboard86
Taleford is part of Ottery St Mary
Welcome back banksiapat, is this not possibly Caroline?
Keyboard86
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Hi Banksiapat!
I'm very happy to see you back!
Thanks so much for your response . . .
Although the wedding date appears correct, the only info I've been able to find about Caroline supports a March to April 1853 birth date, which would make her 17 at the time of the wedding, also consistent with several census records. Could I ask you where it came from? Could it perhaps be a typo of some kind (his age swapped for hers, etc.)?
Were you ultimately able to find more information on Archibald Vesey and Mary Scott?
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Hi Gordon
I purchased a certified copy of Caroline Street and Alexander Vesey's entry of marriage. His age is given as 27 and Caroline's as 23 which would make her date of birth 1847. Baptisms weren't always close to the birth date so there could well be a significant difference in time.
I know nothing of Mary Scott other than she was married to Archibald Vesey. I've sent an email to family asking for any info. Will pass on anything I learn. I've been concentrating on another line.
Kind regards
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In 1871 Caroline Vesey (soldiers wife) and infant dau. Jessie are living with her parents Thomas and Elizabeth Street - she is clearly shown as 18 (i.e. bc.1853 which is confirmed on other census records) so quite clearly she gave an incorrect age of 23 when she married when she was only actually 17!
I would also say that the baptism found for Caroline Streat in 1853 at Escot by keyboard86 is indeed the right one. This is on FindMyPast as are the baptisms for her siblings with the exception of the 2 eldest, Mary Ann and Fanny: John bp.12/1/1845 died same year, Tom bp.7/2/1847, Eliza bp.3/2/1850, Caroline bp.17/4/1853, William bp.25/5/1856 and John bp.3/7/1859.
Annette
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Hi again, and possibly in the case of Caroline the spelling of Street as STREAT
Baptism Mary Ann Street 6th October 1839 Ottery St Mary Father Thomas occ Labourer Mother Elizabeth abode Yonder Street
Baptism Fanny STREAT ( registered as Fanny Elizabeth) 15th May 1842 Ottery St Mary Father Thomas occ Labourer Mother Elizabeth abode Yonder Street
Keyboard86
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Hi again, and possibly in the case of Caroline the alternative spelling of Street as STREAT
Baptism Mary Ann Street 6th October 1839 Ottery St Mary Father Thomas occ Labourer Mother Elizabeth abode Yonder Street
Baptism Fanny STREAT ( registered as Fanny Elizabeth) 15th May 1842 Ottery St Mary Father Thomas occ Labourer Mother Elizabeth abode Yonder Street
Keyboard86
Oops!
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So it appears they all lived over yonder . . . ::)
This is all very useful, thank you so much everyone!
Banksiapat, though it's true that baptisms were at times performed well after a child's infancy, there's a birth record that looks to be Caroline's from April, May, June, 1853, and as her baptism was April 17th, it appears as though her birth probably took place in the first half of April, 1853.
It just occurred to me that if they were married on 26 Dec 1870, and there was a baby already born by 2 Apr 1871 (Census Day), that they were probably in a bit of a hurry to make things legal. Perhaps their parents didn't know a thing until after they were married and she had to lie about her age in order to do it. Just a thought.
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Hello all.
This is where I am up to, incorporating what is on this thread and a bit more:
Caroline Vesey (nee Street, 1854), daughter of Thomas Street and Elizabeth (nee Hayman) Street.
Elizabeth Hayman (bapt 1817), the daughter of Charles and Sarah
Charles Hayman (born 1791), the son of Richard (born 1750) and Prudence (nee Blackmore, 1754)
The attached pic is a screen grab that shows Charles Hayman (with an older sister Anne - the marriage witness?) and siblings; with parents Richard and Prudence as well as maternal grandparents John Blackmore and Mary Gillard.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/genealogy/records/prudence-blackmore-24-g5l1q
But, of course, needs to be cross-checked on Ancestry site, which I plan to do.
*Also, thought it was worth noting that there is a hamlet called Street about 10-12 miles south-east of Ottery St Mary ... maybe where Street family got their name?
NB You will have to download the attachment to see the whole pic. Apologies. I didn't realise it would appear as large as it has done!
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Great information, thank you!
Your screenshot is completely viewable if you move the gray bar just below it over to the right.