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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: JollyMe on Monday 21 November 11 02:14 GMT (UK)
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My ggggrandfather is Richard Jones. He had a son John Jones b 1852 who married Mary Ann Bramwell. I have tried finding Richard through ordering 15 birth certificates of John Jones born at Wolverhampton but unfortunately none of the certificates have Richard as the father.
John had a son James who married Martha Alice Beattie. James and Martha emigrated to NZ early 1900. Their children were May. Fred, Thomas, Lillian and Mary Ann.
Does anyone have any information on this family.
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Hi could not locate readily this family in 1861, but this 1871 seems to show this John (On original) born Wolverhampton?
Richard Jones 47 occ Engine Foreman b Shrewsbury Shropshire
Phoebe 38 b Hayward Staffordshire
John 18 b Wolverhampton? Staffordshire
Eliza 11 b Birkenhead, Cheshire
William 7 b Birkenhead
Alfred 7 b Birkenhead
Pheobe 5 b Preston, Lancs
Emma L 2 b Preston Lancs
Harriett A 3 months b Bootle Lancs
James Williams 31 Boarder b Lancs
William Lee 19 b Shropshire
Residing at Pleasant Grove, Walton on the Hill, Bootle, Lancs
Census Ref RG10/3832/88/77
Keyboard86
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Wow - I didn't expect such a quick reply.
I am pretty sure you have the correct family for me as I had previously found a marriage for a Alfred Jones marring Ellen Garnett on 1/8/1885 and Alfred was 21. Groom's father is Richard Jones, plate layer. So I thought this could well be a brother of John.
The dates above match in with both John and Albert.
Thank you so much. I have been looking and looking but for some reason could never find them!!!
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Hi again, the marriage of Richard and Phoebe is important obviously, as the birth in Staffordshire of John, and also of Phoebe could mean he is not a child of Richard's? That is assuming this is the correct family!
Keyboard86
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Do you think John had another father because he was born in another district to the rest of the family?
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Possibly but if he was a plate layer he would travel.I have a family had five children all born in different places ,their father was a plate layer.
Dotty
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I have just found a marriage for a Richard Jones, plate layer to Phoebe Ray but they weren't married until 1871. Unfortunately it only has their ages as Full.
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Hi interesting find that marriage, as in 1851 there is a Phebee Ray b 1831 Great Hayward with parents William and Mary living in Wolverhampton?
Census ref HO107/2021/724/9
Keyboard86
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I wonder about this one in 1861 RG9 2644 121 25
Stanley Place Birkenhead
Richard Jones 32 dock labourer bn Shropshire
Chealy wife 25 bn Shropshire
John son 8 bn Shropshire
Eliza daur 11m bn Cheshire
Gibel
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Platelayer to Engine Foreman is a big leap in railway terms. The labourer at Birkenhead seems more likely to me.
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In the 1901 England Census John Jones is born Wolverhampton, Staffordshire,
1891 says Walkhampton, Staffordshire, 1881 Bilston Staffordshire.
The family you have in 1861 does look like the same one as in 1871.
I have found marriage records in the records of St Paul in the Parish of Walkden for:
Eliza Jane Jones father occupation labourer 17/5/1884. Witness William Jones & Phoebe Jones.
Alfred Jones grooms father occupation plate layer 1/8/1885. Witness Pheobe (sic) Jones.
Does anyone know what (sic) refers to?
Phoebe Jones father occupation Navvy 17/10/1885. (Navvy was a term also applied to the workmen employed on building rail tracks, their tunnels, etc.)
Emma Lavinia Jones father occupation labourer 20/4/1889. Eitness Harriet Ann Jones
Richard was deceased by the time Phoebe and Emma were married.
It appears Richard's occupation (or name thereof) frequently changed.
If I could find John's birth record but it seems to be alluding me!!!
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Does anyone have the same thought as me that Chealy is Richard's first wife then he married Phoebe????
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I think that if you enlarge "Cleary" it reads Pheobe a differnt spelling.There is a marriage in Wolverhampton in 1844 between aRichard Jones and Phoebe Small.
Dotty
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Yes Jolly me (sic) means as recorded, Latin for "thus" and is used to show readers that the error has not been made by the current writer.
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Hi Dotty
Thanks for your welcomed comments.
I have been really trying to make out a Phoebe from the Chealy in the 1861 census but are having a little difficulty in doing so. Is this what you are referring to to enlarge?
The marriage between Richard and Phoebe in 1844. John wasn't born until 1853. There is a gap of 9 years before they would have had any children. Is this likely back in the 1800's do you think?
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Quite likely, they could have had difficulty in conceiving, and even more likely they could have lost several children through miscarriage or still births.
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Further thought on the 1844 marriage. If in the 1871 census Phoebe is 38 then that would make her birth year around 1833 and only 11 when married.
Under what web site did you find this marriage as the only one I can find is the 1871 marriage taken place way after most of the chidren were born.
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Further thought on the 1844 marriage. If in the 1871 census Phoebe is 38 then that would make her birth year around 1833 and only 11 when married.
Under what web site did you find this marriage as the only one I can find is the 1871 marriage taken place way after most of the chidren were born.
Given the uncertainty over ages to within a year or so prior to 1837 and the fact that marriage was legal for a girl at age 12 with parents' consent, it is perhaps not the time to remove her from the search.