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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cumberland => Topic started by: brad on Saturday 19 November 11 04:33 GMT (UK)

Title: St Begas.
Post by: brad on Saturday 19 November 11 04:33 GMT (UK)
Please can anybody help me out.Looking for the Catholic Chapel at Begas  near Cleator. Cumbria This  is where my family were married and although I have a marriage certificate I would love to find the banes of Marriage.
Where can i go for these . the name is John Carrol and Catherine Carton who married there in 1869 the second of January.
Any help would be great plus a photo of the church would be great. Thanks  Brad.
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: Geoff-E on Saturday 19 November 11 13:41 GMT (UK)
You could do worse than send an e-mail here http://www.cleatormoorblog.co.uk/

(Contact tab at top of page)

I'm not sure there was ever a place called Begas.  The church ar Whitehaven is Saint Begh's which opened in the 1860, replacing the earlier St Gregory's chapel.  I believe the saint was St Bega.
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: Jos, Whitehaven on Saturday 19 November 11 17:36 GMT (UK)
The foundation stone of the present Catholic Church at Cleator was laid in October 1869 and opened in June 1872. This church was dedicated to "Our Lady of the Sacred Heart" (i.e. "St Mary's" for short).

However, the previous Catholic Church at Cleator was built in 1853 under the guidance of Father Gregory Holden OSB and opened in December of that year. This original church was dedicated to St Bega. This is the church where your ancestors would have married in January 1869.

Copies of the Catholic marriage records, baptisms and funerals of the Cleator parish are available at the County Records Office in Whitehaven. If there were marriage banns they should be there as well.

The present Catholic Church of St Begh's referred to by Geoff-E was opened in September 1868. Originally it was generally known as "St Bees".

The patron saint for both the 1853 Cleator church and the 1868 Whitehaven saint is St Bega / St Begha ("the Apostle of Cumberland").
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: brad on Saturday 19 November 11 21:17 GMT (UK)

thank you for all your information  I will follow this up thank you.
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: brad on Saturday 31 December 11 02:53 GMT (UK)
yes  i have the marriage(the Original) but i would dearly love a photo or picture of the Chapel if that is possible. can anybody help me it would make my research for the Reunion complete.
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: clearly on Saturday 31 December 11 18:35 GMT (UK)
Hi Brad
Sorry, the best I can do is 105 year old snaps of the present church, interior and exterior. I can't recall ever seeing an image of the old St Bega's Chapel.
Chester
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: Jos, Whitehaven on Saturday 31 December 11 20:10 GMT (UK)
Hello Brad,

Similar to 'Clearly' I can't ever recall seeing a photograph of the old St Bega's either. It initially became a school building when the present St Mary's Church was completed. As I understand it the St Bega's you are interested was located where the car park is now situated.

One way of getting an image of this chapel could be to get a copy of the O.S. map from the 1860s. A second way might be for you to make a direct  enquiry to the parsh and ask if they have an old photograph (link to the parish website given below).

In the meantime, a modern photograph of the interior of St Mary's, Cleator is attached (taken December 2010). There are also some additonal photographs and a little of the parish history on the website.

Link to St Mary's, Cleator & St Joseph's, Frizington website:
http://www.stmarysandstjosephs.org.uk/St._Marys
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: brad on Sunday 01 January 12 02:16 GMT (UK)
thank you so much for your reply.Brad.
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: Geoff-E on Sunday 01 January 12 08:56 GMT (UK)
The position of St Bega's is shown on the 1863-78 1:2500 map here http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html?coords=302021,514082
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: brad on Sunday 01 January 12 09:50 GMT (UK)
thank  you to all for your help Brad
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: clearly on Sunday 01 January 12 18:59 GMT (UK)
Hi Brad,
Just in case these are any good here is picture of the interior and exterior about 1907
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: brad on Sunday 01 January 12 22:26 GMT (UK)
thank you so much . Awesome for all the replies. Brad
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: Jos, Whitehaven on Monday 02 January 12 23:16 GMT (UK)
Please can anybody help me out.Looking for the Catholic Chapel at Begas  near Cleator. Cumbria  ... the name is John Carrol and Catherine Carton who married there in 1869 the second of January.
Any help would be great plus a photo of the church would be great. Thanks  Brad.

Good day Brad,

Attached are modern-day photographs of the former site of St Bega's chapel which you are enquiring about (taken on 02/01/12 - coincidentally the wedding anniversary of your ancestors, John and Catherine). It may not be ideal for family history records, but perhaps of interest all the same.   

As referred to in a previous post replying to your enquiry, the site of the former chapel is now the car park for the church and churchyard.

Photograph No 1
- View looking towards the car park (the present St Mary's Church is in the opposite direction. The building behind the wall is the Grove Court Hotel (formerly the old National School House) - not connected to the Catholic Church.

Photograph No 2
- View taken from the middle of the car park / former chapel towards Dent Fell in the distance.

(TBC)
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: Jos, Whitehaven on Monday 02 January 12 23:17 GMT (UK)

Photograph No 3 - View from the car park looking towards the present St Mary's church, presbytery & buildings.

Hopefully, you should be able to work out the location of St Bega's compared to the present St Mary's from these photographs and the early 20th C postcard views.

I trust these  have added to your knowledge of when your forebears lived in Cleator & Cleator Moor (otherwise known as "God's Country"!).
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: clearly on Tuesday 03 January 12 09:58 GMT (UK)
As I'm not local to West Cumberland, I will leave Jos to answer this but the building in the first picture, in the centre but behind the first set of classrooms, seems to have a very large window.  Probably the school hall but could it have been the east window of the old chapel?
I know it has been said that the old chapel is under the car park but people to make assumptions sometimes and sometimes they get it wrong. Mind, I seem to remember some buildings being pulled down in that area in the 1990's.

Chester
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: Geoff-E on Tuesday 03 January 12 11:22 GMT (UK)
As I'm not local to West Cumberland, I will leave Jos to answer this but the building in the first picture, in the centre but behind the first set of classrooms, seems to have a very large window.  Probably the school hall but could it have been the east window of the old chapel?

No.  :-\

As Joseph said, this was a different school - it is not shown on the 1899 map but was there in 1925.

Having studied the old maps and Google maps, I'm fairly certain the old church was in the area between the presbytery and the wall to the east of the car park.  The car park is what was shown on the old map as graveyard.
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: brad on Tuesday 03 January 12 21:17 GMT (UK)
thank you for all your replies it's awesome  especially the photo's they will be very useful.
What is the name of the school St.Mary's maybe they might have a picture somebody must have one after all there is a Fair bit written about the chapel.
But do appreciate your time and effort into helping us all , once again a big thank from us the committee for the Carroll reunion in New Zealand. Brad
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: Geoff-E on Tuesday 03 January 12 22:09 GMT (UK)
What is the name of the school St.Mary's

On the 1962 map, it was Cleator St Mary's primary school (as opposed to the one next door that was Cleator County Primary School)

This one may interest you it shows, from right to left, (I think)
St Mary's church
Presbytery (priest's house)
School house?
http://www.francisfrith.com/cleator-moor/photos/st-marys-church-c1965_c568009/
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: Jos, Whitehaven on Tuesday 03 January 12 22:50 GMT (UK)
This is what Reverend Caesar Caine, Church of England Vicar at the nearby St Leonard's, Cleator (1910 - 1922) and author of the definitive history of Cleator & Cleator Moor, wrote about the Catholic chapel and the two schools in this part of the village. 

On St Bega's Chapel and the Catholic School, first built in 1853:

"The Reverend Gregory Holden, O.S.B., founded the Roman Catholic Mission at the foot of of Todholes in 1853, building a small Church with School in the rear. When the present handsome Church was erected in 1872, the original Mission Church was utilized as  the main Schooloom."

On the Council School (now Grove Court) built in 1910:

" The latest development in connection with Cleator Schools is the erection of the Council School, which replaced the School at the Mill in 1910. ..... The School is a handsome structure standing on a site of 2 1/2 acres on the main road near The Flosh. The site is well situated opposite Dent, and is divided from the high road by a plantation."

Caine, C. (1916), "Cleator & Cleator Moor: Past and Present".

As previously indicated, what is now the Grove Court Hotel was not part of the Catholic church / school grounds and built in 1910 (which is why it does not appear on a map of 1899 but does appear on the 1925 map, Geoff!).

There is also a description of St Bega's in the 1861 Cumberland Directory & Gazetteer which, if nothing else Brad, may at least give you a mind's eye picture of how it looked:  

"The Roman Catholic church, built in 1853, is a spacious, but plain edifice, with a low tower of red freestone, and affords accommodation for 500 hearers."  

A link to the present parish website was given in an earlier posting to this thread, Brad. You will find contact details on there if you wish to make a direct request to see if anyone has a photograph or sketch of the former building when it was a school.

Attached is another recent photograph of the church grounds (again with the Grove Court Hotel the other side of the wall). This is what would have been the original Catholic cemetery for the district. Unfortunately I do not have the date of the Calvary sculpture in the middle. Some of the headstones seen in the picture date from the latter part of the 19th C.
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: clearly on Tuesday 03 January 12 22:56 GMT (UK)
Brad
Came across this today.  The Aerofilms Archive  of 1.26 million negatives is currently with the National Monuments Record, part of English Heritage.  They are into a project to scan and digitise 95,000 images from the archive.  I think things are a bit chaotic from what I have heard but it may be worth a try. The earliest images are from 1919.  They can be emailed at:

nmrinfo@english-heritage.org.uk

I think its worth a try but I don't know what their charges are like.

Regards

Chester
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: Pcochlain on Friday 04 December 20 14:10 GMT (UK)
Please can anybody help me out.Looking for the Catholic Chapel at Begas  near Cleator. Cumbria This  is where my family were married and although I have a marriage certificate I would love to find the banes of Marriage.
Where can i go for these . the name is John Carrol and Catherine Carton who married there in 1869 the second of January.
Any help would be great plus a photo of the church would be great. Thanks  Brad.
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: Pcochlain on Friday 04 December 20 14:13 GMT (UK)
Apologies this site seemed to remove my message when I posted it.
Sorry for bumping the thread I can't direct message as of yet. Brad, my family history is Coughlan from Cleator Moor with origins in. Waterford before that. I wonder if there is a link?

Please can anybody help me out.Looking for the Catholic Chapel at Begas  near Cleator. Cumbria This  is where my family were married and although I have a marriage certificate I would love to find the banes of Marriage.
Where can i go for these . the name is John Carrol and Catherine Carton who married there in 1869 the second of January.
Any help would be great plus a photo of the church would be great. Thanks  Brad.
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: sarah on Friday 04 December 20 14:13 GMT (UK)
Hello Pcochlain,

Welcome to RootsChat.

You had just pressed the quote button instead of the reply button, you will find the reply button at the end of the topic just after the last response ;)

Regards

Sarah
Title: Re: St Begas.
Post by: thatcanyon on Tuesday 01 February 22 17:20 GMT (UK)
The photo posted by Geoff-E shows, R to L, the present day church of St. Mary's, the Priory (presbytery) and the Old Priory, not a school house. I suggest you go to Cleator Moor Born and Bred on Facebook and search for the photographs there. I know for certain that pictures of St. Bega's which became St. Mary's Primary and then was completely demolished have been posted there. If they have been removed, an appeal for some to be posted would bear fruit, I am sure. I know of people there who have extensive albums for the town. St. Mary's is celebrating its 150th anniversary this year.