RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: heaths on Friday 18 November 11 09:33 GMT (UK)
-
I am trying to find records for Elizabeth Jones. Her father was Robert Jones of the "Scarborough" and he was second fleet and on Norfolk Island same as Elizabeth Goldsmith "Lady Juliana".
Elizabeth was born 21 Feb 1798 and Mary 1799. Both on Norfolk Is.
I know Mary married William Collins Burke Jackson but after his death she is missing except for a few hints from her husbands estate.
Elizabeth was selling the family home in Harrington St, the Rocks for her mother after Robert Jones died in 1818.
The 2 Elizabeths were each given land grants at New Norfolk Tasmania.. but again after the death of her mother in 1823.. nothing
Robert Jones was Assistant Superintendant of Police in Sydney and had a good career.
Anything would be a help :)
-
This is not easy to follow so can you indicate if I am understanding the story correctly.
Robert Jones, "Scarborough" First Fleet, and Elizabeth Goldsmith "Lady Juliana" First Fleet are parents of Elizabeth (1798) and Mary (1799) born NI.
After Robert Jones d. 1818, daughter Elizabeth sold Jones family home in Harrington St for mother, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth Jones, and her mother Elizabeth (Goldsmith) Jones received land grants in Tasmania.
After death of Elizabeth (Goldsmith) Jones, 1823, you have no information about daughter Elizabeth.
Mary m. William Collins Burke, and you do not know about her life after death of husband William.
Did Elizabeth Jones, and mother Elizabeth (Goldsmith) Jones, take up their land grants in Tasmania...did they live in Tasmania. Do you know when they received the land grants at New Norfolk, Tasmania?
Where did Elizabeth (Goldsmith) Jones die 1823?
...After death of Elizabeth (Goldsmith) Jones, 1823, you have no information about daughter Elizabeth...
Does that mean you know that Elizabeth was alive at the time of her mother's death? Was Elizabeth unmarried in 1823...less common for the times you would think.
....Mary m. William Collins Burke, and you do not know about her life after death of husband William...
Is this a second, and related, enquiry....the later life of Mary (Jones) Burke?
If so, when and where did husband William die please.
What children did William Collins Burke and Mary Jones have?.
-
Hi heaths
The 2 Elizabeths appear to have been in Hobart in 1821 as per the Colonial Sec Index.
There are 3 marriages of Elizabeth JONES in Tasmania between 1829 & 1836, unfortunately their age is not stated.
Regards
Genni
-
My correction to my message #2
... William Collins Burke....is William Collins Burke Jackson.
-
Colonial Tasmanian Family Links
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=8
born to William C Burke Jackson and Mary
George William Collins Jackson 1817 Hobart
Mary Ann Jane Collin Jackson 1816 Hobart
-
This is not easy to follow so can you indicate if I am understanding the story correctly.
Robert Jones, "Scarborough" First Fleet, and Elizabeth Goldsmith "Lady Juliana" First Fleet are parents of Elizabeth (1798) and Mary (1799) born NI.
After Robert Jones d. 1818, daughter Elizabeth sold Jones family home in Harrington St for mother, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth Jones, and her mother Elizabeth (Goldsmith) Jones received land grants in Tasmania.
After death of Elizabeth (Goldsmith) Jones, 1823, you have no information about daughter Elizabeth.
Mary m. William Collins Burke, and you do not know about her life after death of husband William.
Did Elizabeth Jones, and mother Elizabeth (Goldsmith) Jones, take up their land grants in Tasmania...did they live in Tasmania. Do you know when they received the land grants at New Norfolk, Tasmania?
Where did Elizabeth (Goldsmith) Jones die 1823?
...After death of Elizabeth (Goldsmith) Jones, 1823, you have no information about daughter Elizabeth...
Does that mean you know that Elizabeth was alive at the time of her mother's death? Was Elizabeth unmarried in 1823...less common for the times you would think.
....Mary m. William Collins Burke, and you do not know about her life after death of husband William...
Is this a second, and related, enquiry....the later life of Mary (Jones) Burke?
If so, when and where did husband William die please.
What children did William Collins Burke and Mary Jones have?.
I believe they took up the land grants at New Norfolk and are mentioned in George Evans book as having 50 acres each in 1822..
Elizabeth Goldsmith died 5th April 1823 and was buried as Elizabeth Rainer (Name of first husband from Norfolk Island was William Rayner). Her daughter Elizabeth Jones is on the cemetry index as her child. Burial
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Ceremony Performed by R.Knopwood. M.A. Buried at St Davids Hobart
and thats the last I know of these 2 ladies....Mary Jones is not that important as yet..
-
The son went to England and took up his inheritance and the daughter married into the Amos family
Colonial Tasmanian Family Links
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=8
born to William C Burke Jackson and Mary
George William Collins Jackson 1817 Hobart
Mary Ann Jane Collin Jackson 1816 Hobart
-
Hi heaths
The 2 Elizabeths appear to have been in Hobart in 1821 as per the Colonial Sec Index.
There are 3 marriages of Elizabeth JONES in Tasmania between 1829 & 1836, unfortunately their age is not stated.
Regards
Genni
I know and I probably will have to get all 3 certificates..this is what I keep coming up against.. so many Elizabeths and Eliza's
-
Heaths
depending on the rain, I plan to go to library sometime today
do you have spouse names, years or registration numbers for these 3 marriages, I will look up on microfilm for you
Lou :D
-
Heaths
depending on the rain, I plan to go to library sometime today
do you have spouse names, years or registration numbers for these 3 marriages, I will look up on microfilm for you
Lou :D
All I have as a fact is she was in Tasmania living since 1818 and left Sydney after her father Robert jones death with her mother Elizabeth Jones nee Rayner nee Goldsmith.
Possibly married at New Norfolk or Hobart or maybe never married!!!
Then a death I have 1 possible in 1882 in NSW with right parents names for an Elizabeth Jones reg 1451 and that I think I will order asap.
-
marriages
19 Jan 1818 Hobart
Thomas JOHNSTON 32 free
Elizabeth JONES 21 free
witnesses John LORD, David BUSH
11 Feb 1823 Hobart
Henry (Gekes or Jekers) JAMES 24 free
Elizabeth JONES 35 free
witnesses Benjamin NOKES, George NORTHAN
27 July 1829 Hobart
William TUCKER bachelor
Elizabeth JONES (convict) spinster; signed with X
23 Nov 1836 Launceston
George YOUNG free widower
Elizabeth JONES convict spinster X
I guess from the ages and convict status you can eliminate most of these?
did not see another marriage between 1829 and 1836
also of note, the 2 children of Mary seem to have been baptised together in 1823, #1451 and 1452 on the index
-
There are many family researchers for the JONES, RAYNER, COLLINS, AMOS & further families.
They all seem to have been doing some in depth research. Have you been in contact with any of them?
Perhaps this might give you some insight into Mary (nee JONES) COLLINS:
http://newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/AUS-NORFOLK-IS/1999-12/0944346250
http://www.curiousfox.com/uk/mbprof2.lasso?eid=138703&-nothing
-
marriages
19 Jan 1818 Hobart
Thomas JOHNSTON 32 free
Elizabeth JONES 21 free
witnesses John LORD, David BUSH
11 Feb 1823 Hobart
Henry (Gekes or Jekers) JAMES 24 free
Elizabeth JONES 35 free
witnesses Benjamin NOKES, George NORTHAN
27 July 1829 Hobart
William TUCKER bachelor
Elizabeth JONES (convict) spinster; signed with X
23 Nov 1836 Launceston
George YOUNG free widower
Elizabeth JONES convict spinster X
I guess from the ages and convict status you can eliminate most of these?
did not see another marriage between 1829 and 1836
also of note, the 2 children of Mary seem to have been baptised together in 1823, #1451 and 1452 on the index
I thought for a minute the younger man.. but ages don't work..
You are wonderful thankyou at least a negative is a positive in this case..
-
There are many family researchers for the JONES, RAYNER, COLLINS, AMOS & further families.
They all seem to have been doing some in depth research. Have you been in contact with any of them?
Perhaps this might give you some insight into Mary (nee JONES) COLLINS:
http://newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/AUS-NORFOLK-IS/1999-12/0944346250
http://www.curiousfox.com/uk/mbprof2.lasso?eid=138703&-nothing
The son got his fathers estate and did very well. I have a mention in the Sydney Gazette that his wife Mary Jackson nee Jones and children inherited eventually.
I have good research on Marys children but not anything concrete on Mary and I am not liking the Bethune theory as I can't get anything as factual on it.
I have been in contact with Rayner researchers as Eliza Rayner is a gggg grandmother of mine through her oldest son Walter de Molesworth Jeffery.
Many thanks.
I think what has me intrigued is the fact that these 2 ladies got a Land Grant each and a 60 pound payment..The house they sold was substancial at 18 Harrington St The rocks. Sydney.. They seem to have moved fast after Robert Jones died to move to Hobart.
Was it common for Land Grants to women?? I don't think they were short of money. or had debts except for owing the Hobart Govt 20 pounds each as pf 21 May 1821 on the list of debts due from individuals.
I have them both on 1819 stock muster,
on stores list at Hobart 24 March 1820 with a zero ration and 1 govt man.
And on Hobart Town muster of women 1822
Then after the mother died.. zilch
-
Hi
The other marriage in Tasmania is of
Elizabeth Harrington JONES to Peter BREWER in 1833. I think we can rule that one out too, as Elizabeth Harrington BREWER dies aged 80 in 1891.
The middle name caught my eye as it is the same as the street in Sydney.
According to James Donohue's "The people and their Families Tasmania 1803-1820"
An Elizabeth JONES marries Thomas JOHNSON at St David's 19th Jan 1818
Child:- Benjamin Thomas born 12th Dec 1818
A Benjamin Thomas JOHNSON died Hobart 9th June 1883 aged 65 Reg no: 912/1883 RGD35
Regards
Genni
-
Hi
The other marriage in Tasmania is of
Elizabeth Harrington JONES to Peter BREWER in 1833. I think we can rule that one out too, as Elizabeth Harrington BREWER dies aged 80 in 1891.
The middle name caught my eye as it is the same as the street in Sydney.
According to James Donohue's "The people and their Families Tasmania 1803-1820"
An Elizabeth JONES marries Thomas JOHNSON at St David's 19th Jan 1818
Child:- Benjamin Thomas born 12th Dec 1818
A Benjamin Thomas JOHNSON died Hobart 9th June 1883 aged 65 Reg no: 912/1883 RGD35
Regards
Genni
The 2 Elizabeths were in Sydney till end of 1818 at the very least..so not this one either.. plus they are both Jones on musters up to 1822
there has to be something somewhere...the land grants..any way of tracking them online???
-
It would seem that William and George Rayner, sons of John Rayner and Elizabeth Goldsmith also lived in Tasmania. William m. 1815, so the Rayner family is in Tasmania before the death of Robert Jones and death of mother Elizabeth Jones.
Elizabeth Jones is a very ordinary name and findingmarriage and death for Elizabeth (b 1798) might not be possible.
You might be able to locate her by association with siblings...witness at marriage of William or George in Tasmania, godmother of children baptised etc.
Tas BDM
William Rayner m Sophia Cullen 3 Jan 1815/168 Hbt 23/17yrs
Mary 5 Dec 1815/454 1816 Hbt
Eliza 23 Nov 1817/570 1817 Hbt
Sophia Christina 24 Sep 1819 /753 1819 Hbt
William James 16 Sep 1822/1769 1822 Hbt
Jessie Catherine 21 Oct 1822/2690 1828 Hbt
Rebekah 14 Jan 1830/3318 1830 Hbt
Henry Augustus 12 May 1834/5843 1834 New Norfolk
death Sophia Rayner 29 Apr 1835/4264 37yrs New Norfolk
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=8
A second marriage for William Rayner 1840, Mary Meney, Hbt, and death 1862 Castlemaine, Victoria, for William Rayner.
Newspaper item, 1862, has William, late Hbt, dies at home of son Henry in Victoria.
BDM TAS
Marriage for George Rayner b 1794, Hbt 1819, to Mary Pyers, death of George 1840, Hbt
I think you have said
"...All I have as a fact is she was in Tasmania living since 1818 and left Sydney after her father Robert Jones death with her mother Elizabeth Jones nee Rayner nee Goldsmith".
What does this refer to..where do you see Elizabeth Jones in Tasmania 1818?
-
The 2 Elizabeths were in Sydney till end of 1818 at the very least..so not this one either.. plus they are both Jones on musters up to 1822
there has to be something somewhere...the land grants..any way of tracking them online???
I wouldn't discount this Elizabeth, yet. Considering how much travelling this family appears to have done.
Following her I find that.
Thomas Johnson burial 13th Dec 1818 aged 33 (his age at time of marriage in January - 32)
Then I find Elizabeth JOHNSON aged 26 marrying Charles DONN 19th February 1824.
Then I find Elizabeth DONN marrying Henry BUTLER 26th November 1827.
Elizabeth BUTLER dies in Hobart in 22nd August 1875 aged 78.
She is buried with her son Benjamin Thomas JOHNSON at Cornelian Bay CofE Section D No: 27
In Benjamin Thomas' will he mentions his cousin Benjamin Charles JONES. I think this could be the son of James Jones & Mary Anne Huding. James is mentioned as another child of Robert & Elizabeth (nee Goldsmith) JONES. He also mentions his daughter Rosetta JONES child born to him by Mary Ann JONES. She resided with him and his mother.
Regards
Genni
-
It would seem that William and George Rayner, sons of John Rayner and Elizabeth Goldsmith also lived in Tasmania. William m. 1815, so the Rayner family is in Tasmania before the death of Robert Jones and death of mother Elizabeth Jones.
Elizabeth Jones is a very ordinary name and findingmarriage and death for Elizabeth (b 1798) might not be possible.
You might be able to locate her by association with siblings...witness at marriage of William or George in Tasmania, godmother of children baptised etc.
Tas BDM
William Rayner m Sophia Cullen 3 Jan 1815/168 Hbt 23/17yrs
Mary 5 Dec 1815/454 1816 Hbt
Eliza 23 Nov 1817/570 1817 Hbt
Sophia Christina 24 Sep 1819 /753 1819 Hbt
William James 16 Sep 1822/1769 1822 Hbt
Jessie Catherine 21 Oct 1822/2690 1828 Hbt
Rebekah 14 Jan 1830/3318 1830 Hbt
Henry Augustus 12 May 1834/5843 1834 New Norfolk
death Sophia Rayner 29 Apr 1835/4264 37yrs New Norfolk
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=8
A second marriage for William Rayner 1840, Mary Meney, Hbt, and death 1862 Castlemaine, Victoria, for William Rayner.
Newspaper item, 1862, has William, late Hbt, dies at home of son Henry in Victoria.
BDM TAS
Marriage for George Rayner b 1794, Hbt 1819, to Mary Pyers, death of George 1840, Hbt
I think you have said
"...All I have as a fact is she was in Tasmania living since 1818 and left Sydney after her father Robert Jones death with her mother Elizabeth Jones nee Rayner nee Goldsmith".
What does this refer to..where do you see Elizabeth Jones in Tasmania 1818?
They sold the house in Sydney and the notice that they were quitting the colony with a public notice in the Gazette dated 12 Sept 1818 and the house was put up for auction..29 Sept 1818..as per the Sydney Gazette
BY MR. LORD,
At his Auction Mart, Macquarie Place, on Tuesday
the 29th Instant, at 12 o'clock precisely,
THAT well known HOUSE and PREMISES, situate
in Cumberland-street, formerly the residence of j the late Mr. Jones, Assistant Superintendant of Police-.
The House is built of brick, and contains several spacious Apartments, with a Cellar, and a Well con- stantly supplied with good Water, and has the advan- tage of fronting two Streets.
Any Person who may be desirous to purchase the above, by Private Contract, previous to the Day of Sale, will be treated with on Reference to Miss Jones, on the Premises; or Mr. W. Hutchinson, George street.-Prompt Payment.
and as they are in the Musters for Hobart in 1819, on rations list 24 march 1820 and The Hobart Muster of women 1822. Elizabeth Snr died 1823
So 1818 or early 1819.. But they were in Tasmania.
The "Elizabeth Henrietta" was a Government ship and they must have been approved for passage..according to the notices in the gazette.
wow that must be a lot to narrow her down but it isn't as yet..
-
The 2 Elizabeths were in Sydney till end of 1818 at the very least..so not this one either.. plus they are both Jones on musters up to 1822
there has to be something somewhere...the land grants..any way of tracking them online???
I wouldn't discount this Elizabeth, yet. Considering how much travelling this family appears to have done.
Following her I find that.
Thomas Johnson burial 13th Dec 1818 aged 33 (his age at time of marriage in January - 32)
Then I find Elizabeth JOHNSON aged 26 marrying Charles DONN 19th February 1824.
Then I find Elizabeth DONN marrying Henry BUTLER 26th November 1827.
Elizabeth BUTLER dies in Hobart in 22nd August 1875 aged 78.
She is buried with her son Benjamin Thomas JOHNSON at Cornelian Bay CofE Section D No: 27
In Benjamin Thomas' will he mentions his cousin Benjamin Charles JONES. I think this could be the son of James Jones & Mary Anne Huding. James is mentioned as another child of Robert & Elizabeth (nee Goldsmith) JONES. He also mentions his daughter Rosetta JONES child born to him by Mary Ann JONES. She resided with him and his mother.
Regards
Genni
Genni the 2 girls are Robert Jones children and William and George Rayner are William Rayner "Scarboroughs" children.. Robert Jones and William Rayner had adjoining farms on Mt Pitt, Norfolk Island..The victualing lists, musters etc don't give them this child..
-
The victual list 17 August 1810 has 4 children William, George, Elizabeth and Mary all as Goldsmith..ie Elizabeth Goldsmith who was married to Robert Jones, but she is Goldsmith on all Sydney Musters..
Elizabeth Jones nee Goldsmith was 45 at the time so no James
-
When Benjamin Thomas Johnson d. 1883 newspaper notice has him as nephew of James Jones, Rose Hill, Jericho.
Elizabeth who dies as Butler sounds like the correct one...I wonder what children from her marriages, other than Benjamin?
-
Obits - Elizabeth BUTLER 1875:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8939370
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/52901092
-
Obits - Elizabeth BUTLER 1875:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8939370
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/52901092
Oh gosh I just logged and hoping for some joy and Trove is temporarily unavailable...Will try in about an hour.. but Thankyou
-
Hi
As far as I can tell Benjamin Thomas JOHNSON was Elizabeth JONES' only child.
I picked James up from C J Smees book of the First Fleet Families.
Alson Charles Benjamin JONES mentioned into B T Johnson's will is the son of Robert JONES.
Wondering if Robert had been with someone before Elizabeth Goldsmith.
Regards
Genni
-
Regarding Elizabeth Goldsmith's history...
Have you located a marriage with Wm Rayner, and death for William Rayner?.
Have you located a marriage with Robert Jones?
Is it possible that she was not married to either of these men?
-
Regarding Elizabeth Goldsmith's history...
Have you located a marriage with Wm Rayner, and death for William Rayner?.
Have you located a marriage with Robert Jones?
Is it possible that she was not married to either of these men?
The record of the marriage to William Rayner is not recorded from Norfolk Island or records lost but William Rayner registered both his marriages to the Quakers in Hobart and all his children in 1834.. I have the copy of those records..
Robert Jones marriage..it had to be a bigamist marriage by Elizabeth Goldsmith as she was still married to William Rayner, and he married Susan Chapman whilst still married to Elizabeth..
So how much did the marriages count from Norfolk Island if they failed...not much, I suppose they were forced on them as well as the women were sent there to be with the men.
But the relationship with Robert Jones lasted till his death and was recognised by the Police and gave her a pension etc..
but the dates I have are William Rayner 19 Sept 1791 as per the Friends record and 1797 for Robert Jones.
But all the children of Elizabeth Goldsmith were baptised on Norfolk Is. by Rev. H. Fulton the 20 May 1804 and all with the surname of Jones. ie William and George sons of William Rayner and Roberts daughters Elizabeth and Mary. The boys lived with them on Norfolk and in Sydney until the boys went to Hobart..with William Rayner Snr possibly in 1814 as per the public notices but the Williams get mixed up here..
-
Hi
As far as I can tell Benjamin Thomas JOHNSON was Elizabeth JONES' only child.
I picked James up from C J Smees book of the First Fleet Families.
Alson Charles Benjamin JONES mentioned into B T Johnson's will is the son of Robert JONES.
Wondering if Robert had been with someone before Elizabeth Goldsmith.
Regards
Genni
Genni there was 2 Robert Jones on Norfolk Island.. and they do get mixed up in some records but this one doesn't come up in any records I have on musters, baptisms, letters etc..there is a heap on Robert Jones in the NSW Archives Office and Assistant Superintendant of Police Robert Jones is definetly our man..our Robert is 2nd fleet on the "Scarborough"
-
Are you saying that William Rayner, father of William and George, is also in Tasmania?
Who is Sarah Rayner m.Thomas Kerr 23 Jan 1832 Hbt #1788 RGD 36
No children to this couple in Tas BDM
NSW BDM..children to Thomas Kerr and Sarah
(who might be them..all speculative..but worth noting)
V18324782 121B/1832 KERR Isabella
V18344783 121B/1834 KERR Sarah
V1839705 47/1839 KERR Andrew
V1842273 48/1842 KERR Eliza J
V1844274 48/1844 KERR William G
V18451077 45A/1845 KERR Mary
V18481078 45A/1848 KERR John
V18501079 45A/1850 KERR Robert
and (you would have to think there is a Thomas somewhere to find)
4165/1870 death, Thomas Kerr, Manning River, 60yrs father Andrew, d. Manning River.
3472/1900 death, Sarah Kerr, father William, Stroud.
-
Are you saying that William Rayner, father of William and George, is also in Tasmania?
Who is Sarah Rayner m.Thomas Kerr 23 Jan 1832 Hbt #1788 RGD 36
No children to this couple in Tas BDM
NSW BDM..children to Thomas Kerr and Sarah
(who might be them..all speculative..but worth noting)
V18324782 121B/1832 KERR Isabella
V18344783 121B/1834 KERR Sarah
V1839705 47/1839 KERR Andrew
V1842273 48/1842 KERR Eliza J
V1844274 48/1844 KERR William G
V18451077 45A/1845 KERR Mary
V18481078 45A/1848 KERR John
V18501079 45A/1850 KERR Robert
and (you would have to think there is a Thomas somewhere to find)
4165/1870 death, Thomas Kerr, Manning River, 60yrs father Andrew, d. Manning River.
3472/1900 death, Sarah Kerr, father William, Stroud.
William Rayner moved to Hobart and lived there until his death..lived at the Cnr of Barracks st and Collins St Hobart.. He was a Baker.
Sarah Rayner is his second daughter to Susannah Chapman she married Thomas Kerr 23 Jan 1832 at Hobart. There a million Rayners I think sometimes and a heap named William!!!