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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Northamptonshire => England => Northamptonshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: cherylj on Thursday 17 November 11 01:35 GMT (UK)
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I would like to ask if someone could look up a William Dickens, the only information I have is on his sons marriage Certificate from 1868, his son was Frederick Dickens and he married Julia elizabeth Lighterness. They married on the 23rd September 1868. His father is on the Cert. as William Dickens (bootmaker). I did note that at the bottom it is signed by a Mary Dickens (witness), nto sure if this would be be Fredericks mother of sibling.
I would like to find more information on William Dickens, I have everythning I need on Frederick.
By the way Frederick is from Northampton.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
REgards
Cheryl
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I've found him the 1871 census in Bethnal Green with Julia and baby Anne, but am having problems locating him in 1861 before his marriage .... :-\
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Righto, just found the family in 1851. :)
1851
Georges St
Extra Parochial
Northampton
HO107/1739/204/6
William Dickins head mar 33 shoemaker b Northants Boughton(?)
Mary wife 31 do do
William son 10 shoe closer(?) Northants Kingsthorpe(?)
George son 8 scholar Northants Northampton
Fredk son 5 do do
Fanny daur 3 do do
Thomas son 8 mo do do
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Ahhh I see his name is spelt Dickins, I should know by now to try different spellings.
Thanks Ruskie
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And again:
1861
Melbrow..? St
Northampton
RG9/937/67/41
William Dickins head mar 42 shoemaker b Northnts Boughton
Mary wife 40 do
William son unmar 20 bootcloser do Kingsthorpe
George 18 shoemaker do Boughton
Frederick 15 do do Northampton
Fanny daur 13 shoecloser do do
Mary 9 do
Hannah 6 do
Ann 4 do
Thomas son 10 months Kingsthorpe (the first THomas must have died)
Would you like me to try to find the family in 1841 as well? [After offering, I can't find William in 1841! :-\]
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Ruskie that would be great, I notice that in the 1851 census Thomas (8 months) is the youngest child and then in the 1861 Census there is a Thomas who is 10 months old. Would I assume the first Thomas perhaps passed away.
Also how would I go about searching William Dickens parents, from what you have found me, William was born approx. 1818. Where would be the best site to go and check further (without having to pay)??
Your advice would be great.
Cheers
Cheryl
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I just read your note in brackets regarding Thomas..oops
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Yes, it looks like the first baby Thomas died, so they named the next boy Thomas (this was quite common).
I'm still looking but haven't been able to find William in 1841 - it's possible that he was already married to Mary and first son William may have been born, but I'm not having any luck ...
To find William's (the father) baptism or birth you will need to go to the Parish Registers. As he consistantly says he was born in Boughton, that would be the best place to start. When the UK wakes up, I think you might get some help with this - there are some good people on the Northamptonshire board. ;) In the mean time, you could have a look on Familysearch. I'm not sure how good the coverage for Northants is, but still worth a look.
I just read your note in brackets regarding Thomas..oops
Don't worry about it ... ;D
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These two stand out:
William Dickens, chr 3 May 1818, Boughton, father George, Mother Hannah
William Dickens, chr 1 Dec 1816, Boughton, father William, mother Esther
However both are submitted records so the original parish registers would need to be checked. The first one looks good due to date of 1818, place of Boughton, and parent's names used for William's own children.
I'm not sure how big a place Boughton was but it's possible that the above two Williams are related somehow ... maybe father's William and George are brothers, hence the use of the name William ....
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I have no idea how I missed this earlier, but he is found at last:
1841
Lower End
Kingsthorpe
HO107/810/8/8
William Dickins 20 shoemaker Y
Mary 20 Y
William 1 Y
:)
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It looks like Kingsthorpe and Boughton are only a couple of miles apart, and would have been villages back then. Kingsthorpe has been swallowed up by Northampton urban sprawl and Boughton is right on the edge of it ... :-\
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Possible Marriage which confirms maybe George as the Father of William;
William DICKENS, Father GEORGE Dickens
Mary COBSON, Father WILLIAM Cobson
21 November 1839, Boughton (near Northampton), Northampton, England
(Source Familysearch.Org)
Trish :)
EDIT also on F/S.Org;
Mary COPSON (note spelling) Christened/Baptised 05 March 1820, Boughton, to WILLIAM/ANN
Possible MARRIAGE;
William COPSON
Ann DUNKLEY, 02 November 1819, Boughton, Near Northampton, Northampton
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1841 Census
Boughton, Northamptosnhire
HO107/810/4/Boughton
William COPSON, 45, Ag Lab
Ann, 40
George, 15
Francis, 15
Sarah, 10
William, 10
All born in County
Anc. has described them as COLSON and someone has corrected it to Copson.
1851 Census
Porters Lodge,
Boughton, Northamptonshire
HO107/1742/303/19
William COBSON, 55, Head, Mar, Ag Lab, born Boughton
Ann, 51, Wife, Mar, Dressmaker, born Nobottle
George, 28, Son, Unm, Ag Lab, born Boughton
William, 20, Son, Unm, Cordwainer, born Boughton
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Hi.
Cheryl this query is right on my doorstep. :)
And of course lots of us Northants Folk have Alan Clarke's
cd rom for Northants.
Also the Northants Family History Society who are on my
"Useful Northants Links" below this post have brilliant resources.
Boughton has two churchyards as there is the old Boughton
Church which stood at the end of the village and the one in the
village now.
Anyway I will read through again and see if anything hasn't been
found for you.
Sandy
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The 2 streets names listed by Ruskie on reply 2 and 4 are
St George's Street and Melbourne Street.
William certainly moved about.
I will see if I can see a burial for 1st Thomas.
Okay found it.
Billing Road Cemetery.
Thomas Dickins, aged 1 yr, St George's Street, parents William and Mary
Dickens of St George's Street died July 8th, buried July 15th 1851 in
grave 3157.
This grave seemed to have other children as well buried in it. :(
Sandy
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The marriage of William on the Northants Marriage Indexes.
Boughton BT's
21 Nov 1839
William DICKENS otp, full age, bachelor, cordwainer, father George, labourer to
Mary COBSON otp, minor, spinster, father William, labourer
Sandy
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The only GEORGE Dickens I can find on Census that would be old enough to be Williams Father is by 1841 with a Wife Elizabeth who is much younger.
Maybe you can find a Death for a Hannah Dickens Sandy?
And if possible check if George was a Widower at this Marriage;
George DICKENS
Elizabeth BUSWELL
28 February 1832, Boughton, Near Northampton, Northampton
1841 Census
Boughton, Northamptonshire
HO107/810/4/Boughton
George DICKENS, 55, Ag Lab
Elizabeth, 40
Elezia, 6
Ann, 10
All born in County
George and Hannah Christened at Boughton;
LILLIAN, 03 May 1818
WILLIAM, 03 May 1818###
GEORGE, 20 July 1823
ANN, 31 October 1830 (Mother Anna)
George/Elizabeth Christened;
ELIZA, 19 May 1833
Oh, possible;
Burial, HANNAH Dickens, 28 March 1831, Boughton
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Okay to go with Ruskie's reply 8. :)
From the Northants Marriage Indexes.
Brixworth
28 Feb1816
George DICKINS of Boughton, bachelor to Hannah MOODY otp, spinster
Sandy
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Excellent ;D
That I couldnt find on Familysearch.
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2nd marriage of William's father George.
Same indexes.
Boughton
28 Feb 1832
George DICKENS otp, widower to Elizabeth BUSWELL otp
Sandy
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Cheryl I can not see any surviving headstones (if they had any)
for the early families in either Churchyard.
Sandy
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Mary Copson parents marriage from the Northants Marriage Indexes.
Boughton
02 Nov 1819
William COPSON otp, bachelor to Ann DUNKLY otp, spinster
Sandy
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Hannah (mother of William baptised 1818) baptism from the
Northants Baptism Indexes.
Brixworth C of E
27 Jul 1788
Hannah MOODY d of William & Mary
and father George baptism
Boughton C of E
16 Oct 1780
George DICKENS s of John & Mary
Sandy
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Wow, what wonderful progress Trish and Sandy!
Sandy, I thought you'd be along to lend a hand with this ;D
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It has been a great chase Ruskie :)
1841 Census (under WOODY, image is Moody)
Brixworth, Northamptonshire
HO107/807/1/Brixworth
William MOODY, 75, Ag Lab
Elizath, 50
Lucy, 10
All born in County
LUCY Moody Christened 13 March 1831, Brixworth to WILLIAM/ELIZABETH (IGI)
Could William be Hannahs Father and have remarried?
Possible Marriage to Elizabeth MIDDLETON, 15 April 1830 (F/S Pilot)
1851 Census Elizabeth Moody is a 61yr old Widow in Brixworth and Visiting her is a Mary Ann Moody, Mar, born 1820, Uxbridge, Middlesex.
Mary Ann may be the Wife of a Child of Williams from his first Marriage.
HO107/1742/405/26
Lucy appears to be a Servant in Leics in 1851.
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Ruskie how could I resist. ;D
There is something not quite right about the Moody family. :-\
On the Northants marriage indexes as follows.
Brixworth Marriage
03 Jan 1784
William MOODY of Spratton, single to Margaret HOWLETT otp, single
Children of William Moody being baptised in the village.
12 Mar 1786 - Mary d of Wm & Mary born 27th Feb
27 Jul 1788 - Hannah d of William & Mary
25 Dec 1790 - Mary d of Wm & Mary labourer,
BTs only not in parish register
05 Nov 1792 - Thomas s of William & Margaret
16 Feb 1794 - Jenny or Jane d of William & Margaret
29 Jan 1797 - Willm s of Willm & Margaret
02 Jun 1799 - Elizabeth d of Wiliam & Margaret
08 Nov 1801 - Ann d of Wm & Margaret
08 Nov 1801 - Nanny d of Willm & Mary
04 Nov 1804 - Sarah d of William & Margaret
Sandy
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So the William on the 1841 Census would have been born
about 1760 upwards.
It was not unusual for a woman to be known as Margaret/Mary
therefore is this the case here.
Margaret died in 1829 aged 67 followed by William in 1848 aged 88.
The marriage only notes as below on the N.M.Indexes.
Lamport
15 Apr 1830
William MOODY of Brixworth to Elizabeth MIDDLETON of Hanging Houghton
All these villages Brixworth. Spratton, Hanging Houghton, Lamport
are close by.
Will think about it a bit more.
Sandy
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Ruskie, Trish and Sandy,
Thank you all soo very much for all this fabulous information, I have just got up this morning and read briefly through what you all found. I cant wait to sit down and gor through it all properly.
I have been stuck with my Frederick Dickens for so long, and couldnt find anything further on his family. Absolutely brilliant. What a fantastic forum and of course the people who help on it are even more fantastic.
I do have once question, I note on your marriages that you have "otp" next to their names, what does this mean??
Cheers
Cheryl
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OTP is Of This Parish, which means that the person had been residing in the parish for a minimum of 3 weeks (I believe it was). The term OTP isn't as useful as you'd hope in tracing someone's origins or birth place, as they could have been born or living elsewhere until recently.
There is a lot for you to digest Cheryl, but how good is all that info Trish and Sandy found?! ;D
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Thanks Ruskie,
Yes I am getting through it slowly, in between cleaning and looking after bubs. And your right they have done wonderful work finding all this info.
Cheryl
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Hi Everyone,
I found a marriage for a John Dickens to a Mary Redgrave, on the 14th may 1769 at Boughton, Northampton.
Could this be George Dickens parents??
How does one confirm these things??
Cheers
Cheryl
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Looking at the baptism indexes it may be this one for George
as he was noted as 55 in 1841 and no other that fits.
Boughton C of E
16 Oct 1780
George DICKENS s of John & Mary
Although it can not be presumed to be correct until verified
by other information about the family.
Sandy
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Hi Cheryl,
The further back one goes the harder it is to confirm details.
You are so lucky some of your Ancestors lived to appear on the 1841 Census.
With my Family Tree getting back to mid 1750's and all confirmed, is as far as I have gone.
From there backwards most is sheer speculation unless you are really lucky and find all Christenings to the Couple (which will provide an approx Marriage date) and their Burials (which hopefully has their ages at Death- which then you can find another Christening for them).
Trish :)
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Hi trish,
I see your in Australia too, I have just found out that I have researched a line that went back to 1650 Scotland (all confirmed) only to find out that my man's mother was in fact his dads 2nd wife not the first wife as I thought. So annoyed that I didnt double check my dates.
I cant wait to go to England next year, take all my notes and visit what they used to call Catherine House. going to spend a whole day in there, and probably a few pounds too.
Ah well, onto researching this mans family, fun fun fun.
Trish can i ask you what you use for research, I have been using the Free Census and BMD sites, also Family Search. But quite often i dont find much on those. I dont really want to spend big dollars either for subscriptions.
Cheryl
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Hi again Cheryl.
I think I may have confussed you by my repy above.
A brilliant link to the way the 1841 Census was taken is on
this link by Guy Etchells another rootschatter here which shows
that census ages should not be taken as true in some cases.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/04on/
As we had only got to George Dickins marriage I was not sure we
could say the baptism found was his or his parents.
I have taken a lot of information from Parish Records today for
Boughton and some for Brixworth which when I can I will note
here at a later date if they help to clarify things.
There are many records to help folk trace their lineages pre 1837
besides Parish Records.
Sandy
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I cant wait to go to England next year, take all my notes and visit what they used to call Catherine House. going to spend a whole day in there, and probably a few pounds too.
Cheryl
Cheryl, You've probably already done this, but you might like to double check what records you are looking for and where they are kept. Many records are now going online and some places have closed down or reduced staffing levels and opening hours, and some places require you to pre-book fiche readers etc, documents may need to be pre-ordered, so you may not necessarily just be able to turn up, and spend a day and find everything you need. Unless there is something specific that is not yet online, such as various military records held at Kew, you may be better conducting the main part of your research online. Eg. if you are looking for birth, marriage or death certificates from 1837 onwards, you may find it easier to purchase from the GRO and have them posted to you. The exchange rate at the moment makes this fairly economical. Also depending on exactly how much research you wish to conduct, you might need to plan for several days to research ... :)
I'm not sure if this is where you are hoping to visit?:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
You will have a wonderful time in England whatever you do. If you are able to do so, you should visit Northampton and the villages your Dickins's came from. Have a look at the area on google streetview - it looks lovely. :)
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Hi Ruskie and Sandy,
Just a quickie to say I havent read through your posts ompletely. Been a busy day and ready to chill in front of the tv after bubs is in bed.
Ruskie I am going to write a list of places to visit, hoping we can get some great photographs and find some graves.
Sandy when I get some quiet time I will have a thorough look through your posts. I am really keen to search this line, after my big mess us with picking the wrong mum originally. Now I hope I am on the right track.
Thank you
Cheers
Cheryl
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Hi Ruskie, Cheryl.
Ruskie sometimes in England if you apply to the local Registry Office
on line where marriages after 1837 took place you will get a copy of the
original marriage with the bride and grooms hand-writing on although
not if you visit on the day.
These are not available at the G.R.O. as they are copies of the full records
and often typed and the Family Record Centre that took over from
St. Catherine's House ( Oh I remember it well and before that
Somerset House) is closed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Records_Centre
Therefore on-line requests are the only way to go or Record Offices
and Libraries that hold Parish Records if the event took place other than
the Registry Offices .
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ep4/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0hdh/
Sandy
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Oh Cheryl.
If you want any help when you have done your list just give any of
us here a shout.
Sandy
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Hi Sandy,
That's kindof what I was trying to explain to Cheryl ;) - I knew some records were now online, some places had closed, but was unsure which.
Yes, I understand about applying for certificates from local registry offices and getting the original handwriting (unless they signed with an X ;D). I've never done this myself as it's just so easy to go via the GRO route.
I've also read about people having to prebook readers and having specified amounts of time to use various equipment, so I just wanted to let Cheryl know that it can be difficult. I know that there are also variations in rules and regs in different libraries etc. Bit of a minefield really isn't it? ;D
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Sorry Ruskie.
I was not meaning to correct you.
Sandy
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Ok Ladies,
I have sat down and put all the information given to me into my Family Tree Maker, I have left out the Moody family as there are some discrepancies there.
I do note that my William Dickens born to George and Hannah Dickens was christened on the same day as his sibling Lillian, could they possibly be twins??
Now back to searching the net for any morsel of information to continue on with it.
When I get time I will be working out the places I want to visit, we called the in laws today in England and apparently Northamptonshire is only about 40 minutes away from then in Hertfordshire, so that will be a day trip - if lucky.
Most of the paternal line are based in Middlesex and areas around there.
Another question, if I have a burial date and place, would that be enough to obtain a death certificate, or will I have to find an exact date of death??
Well back to google and chilling with the relaxing rain coming down outside.
Cheers
Cheryl
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Hi again Cheryl.
If you have a burial date and place you can look at the G.R.O.
Indexes to see which quarter and Registation District the death
took place in and order it that way.
Also if you wish you could send me a gedcom and I could enter
any other information for you from here although I do not wish
to take over your research else the fun goes out of it. ;D
Sandy
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Sorry Ruskie.
I was not meaning to correct you.
Sandy
I know you weren't. :-* No apologies neccessary. ;)
Re William and Hannah being christened on the same day - they could be twins, but often parents got a 'job lot' of kids christened on the same day. Sandy might be able to help you with dates of birth for them?
Death certificates don't contain very much genealogical information. This might help:
http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/deaths.htm
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;D
I can not see a marriage for Lillian that may help Ruskie.
Normally if a birth is noted on the Baptism records Alan or Marilyn
always note them.
As to the 2 baptisms together it may have been that they could not
afford to do either Child at the time of birth so did a "job lot" which
you have mentioned here Ruskie. ;D
I have seen 10 at once before. :o the Vicar must have been pleased.
We are if he kindly put the birth dates. :)
Also of course late baptisms prior/after marriage or death are ones to
look-out for years after the event.
Sandy