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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: cocksie on Sunday 06 November 11 04:55 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone see this bloke arriving in OZ?
JAMES DAVIDSON born 1800 Laurencekirk, Kincardinshire, Scotland
Arrives by himself (parents George & Isabella stay firmly in Scotland) and is first found as father on birth certificate of first child, Jessie Davidson (b. 13th March 1835, chr. 19th April 1835 Parish of St Phillip's, Sydney).
James is described as a Clerk on this birth certificate (which is repeated on certificate of next child, Mary Jane, in 1838).
So, I have been looking for a James Davidson (and variant spellings thereof) arriving somewhere in Australia between 1815-1835 and found nothing. Help!
No, there is no marriage to the mother, Ann(e) Kelly, that can be found. And she is a very interesting and busy woman, who attracts menfolk so nothing surprises me.
No, there is no death that can be found to date, although I believe that he died back in Scotland in 1852 (according to James' father's death certificate). To put this death into context, James' children can be found back in Scotland in 1851 census, Mary Jane with her grandparents and Jessie around the corner as a house maid (no James to be found). Girls then travel back to OZ in 1856 and cite father as dead and mother living in Sydney with a new surname, another (or possibly legally first) hubbie and some additional children.
If I could find James Davidson arriving in OZ it would stop me lying awake at night wondering .....
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Hi there,
What about the James Davidson who arrived on the Minstral in 1825?
He got into trouble up Muswellbrook way in 1849, was tried at Maitland Sept 1849.
(Edit to add, some indexes have the ship as Minstrel http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/ )
Cheers, JM
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James Davidson on the Minstrel was tried at Cumberland Assizes which would have not been too far away from Scotland, although a fair way from Aberdeen. He got life and appears to arrive with an Arthur Kelly.
My James Davidson had two daughters in 1835 and 1838 in Sydney. The daughters next turn up in 1851 Scotland Census with their paternal grandparents. The mother, Ann(e) Kelly, is well and truly back in Australia in 1851 having had a number of children to her boss and then more with her next husband.
So .... working with this information .... I doubt the girls travelled back to Scotland unaccompanied (between 1838 birth of Mary Jane and 1851 Scotland Census) but maybe I am being a fuddy duddy. In scotland the girls are with their father's parents .... leads me to think that dad, James Davidson, took them back.
The Minstrell James D is an ex con (potentially from Cumberland), again in trouble in 1849 in Maitland. I am off to trove to see if I can find what his trouble in Maitland was (I am unfamiliar with tracking down Australian legal stuff although getting better online with UK info). If minor trouble (which would allow him to then take girls back to Scotland) then this bloke could be a suspect.
Be back soon.
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The Minstrel James D arr 1825, in trouble Maitland in 1849 is not my guy - I checked him out in Trove. The 1849 incident was not minor - escape from gaol and caught and injured quite seriously. But I don't think this James Davidson was in a position to take his daughters back to Scotland after this incident - he seems to be stuck in gaol for rather a long time.
Unless the daughters did travel back by themselves .... if they travelled back in 1851 (in months just prior to scottish census) then the eldest, Jessie, would have been only just 15. I just can't picture this but, as I posted before, maybe I am an old fuddy duddy.
Thanks for the potential lead though!
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Can you tell me if James had any siblings & their names also the year of birth for his parents?
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Cocksie,
I have arriving into OZ in the early 1850s two brothers, unaccompanied from the UK. One was aged 14, the other 10, and their arrival documents confirm that too. Neither could read and write, yet their parents let them come half way around the globe, the lads sent funds home too (product of their gold fevers), and sponsored an even younger bro to OZ several years later. So it is possible the Davidson girls returned to Scotland without their Dad.
Cheers, JM
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I hope you keep the chap ex the Mistrel on the horizon for a while yet ;)
I have looked at several images regarding him, and there's some flexible d o b ranging from 1797 to 1812 ::) ::) however there is one specific record that you may find of interest.
Admission to Darlinghurst in 1845 gives him born 1804 standing 5 ft 11 3/4 in tall (now that's precise), stout build with fresh complexion, brown hair and grey to hazel eyes, born Long Town Cumberland, Protestant, Carpenter,
And the NSW SRO has the T o L for the chap at Maitland SAept 1849 as issued in 1854 .... ref 54/186 I think the number indicates early 1854.
;D ;D ;D AND another chap in NSW pre 1835 ...
James Davidson, (Junior) sought land in 1833 ... as per NSW SRO CSLand index.
Cheers, JM
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In answer to Merlin first:
1. James Davidson had no siblings that I have been able to find in Laurencekirk (James was christened 15 Nov 1800 Laurencekirk - obviously a premature birth - refer 3. below).
2. His parents were George Davidson and Isabella Croll who can be found in 1841 scottish census living together (by themselves) in West Aberdeen and again in 1851 in Brechin with their New South Wales born grand daughter Mary Jane.
3. I have George Davidson's scottish death register in 1855 - (very detailed, love the Scots!) lists his wife (Isabel nee Croll) as deceased (1853) and son James deceased (1852) age 51, also lists that George had been living in Aberdeenshire for 55 years so am assuming that, not long after James birth, the family moved to Aberdeenshire. George was born 1768 and Isabella (nee croll) in 1780, both in Scotland. George & Isabella were married Jun 1800 Laurencekirk.
And answers, responses to majm
I am keeping JD ex Mistrel on the horizon don't you worry. I keep them all until definitely scrubbed. Am not sure though - info you have found doesn't add up to being my guy: wrong birth place, wrong trade. My problem is with the dates for the Minstrel suspect. I can't find a death for a James Davidson in OZ between T o L 1854 and 1856.
My James was definitely dead by 1856 (as listed by daughters when they returned to Aus)
If I have his parents correct (which I believe I have, based on 1851 scottish census where Mary Jane Davidson, grand daughter born in NSW, living with them and sister Jessie living and working just round the corner) then informant for father reckons son James is dead in 1852.
My premise for the girls returning to OZ on the Commodore Perry in 1856 is: father dies 1852 (where is unknown), grandma dies 1853, grandpa dies 1855, no close family in Scotland, mother still in Sydney so that is where they head. Mum is listed as paying the "bounty" (not sure if that is what it called) by the way.
I have looked into the James Davidson Jnr previously. He had a father, also James Davidson and there was another chap that they teamed up with to buy land for much of 1830s and early 1840s (found on trove). This does not work with what I believe/think I know.
To tell the truth, I have been eyeing off a James Davidson who was a clerk working for a firm called Hughes & Hosking in Sydney. There are a number of mentions of this clerk James Davidson on trove from about 1838 until 1845 - particularly in the supreme court where this chap is a witness. It is quite interesting to follow as in the depression of 1843 Hughes & Hosking became insolvent and brought down the Bank of Australia. This James Davidson also gave money to "erect in the south end of Sydney, a Presbyterian Church, in connexion (sic) with the Established Church of Scotland" ..... (as an aside).
If this is my James Davidson it could well explain why he grabbed the kids and took them back to Scotland after the trial ..... he wouldn't have been the most popular bloke.
Although, as you point out majm - the girls could well have gone back to Scotland by themselves. Scary! This info is going to change the way I am viewing the situation - I will need to reassess.
Another bit of information that maybe important - the "wife" of James Davidson and mother of his children had 2 further illegitimate children with Judge James Donnithorne in 1841 and 1845 (all mentioned in Donnithorne's will), followed by a marriage to another bloke (Samuel Jones) in 1847 (with further children in 1847, 1850 & 1854).
This could suggest that James was a single parent from at least 1847 (possibly from 1841). Which led me to think he took the girls back to his mum and dad. But maybe he just sent them back.
Its quite a complicated story from 1841 onwards but that story does not seem to provide me with the clues to help me establish:
when, before 1835, James Davidson arrived in OZ?
Apologies for rambling on and thank you for your interest and help. I probably need to do a "dot point" timeline/bc/mc/dc summary, easier than reading through my scrambled thoughts.
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No apologies needed/wanted/sought by me, for, that is simply grand summary to read through and thus to try to confirm/eliminate etc ;)
There's another lot of newspapers online, and for the 1840's however these are NOT keyword searchable. This is the online papers pre the technology that brings us TROVE. I hope you have lots of patience with the following link: http://www.nla.gov.au/ferg/about/index.html (Add, Oops, this gets you to the search option quicker :
http://www.nla.gov.au/ferg/search.html )
Also, there's intercolonial news to be found in the NZ digitised papers, another ongoing project akin to Trove. Here's that link too http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast
Cheers, JM
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::) for pondering
22 Sept 1819 at St Johns Parramatta (C of E) a marriage ceremony, twice indexed at NSW BDM (one would be the transmitted record sent through to the Principal Chaplain) (the exact date is found at this link : https://www.familysearch.org/ )
One index gives James Davison and Elizabeth Sutter (Vol 3A line 2420)
One index gives James Davison and Elizabeth Suttor (Vol 147B line 915)
I could be wrong, but I think SUTTOR would be the family surname rather than SUTTER. So, could well be that the groom's surname has also been mangled in the transcription process.
Here's the link to St Johns http://english.stjohnscathedral.org.au/index.php/about-us-/our-heritage
Cheers, JM
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:) from your summary ... an aside ;D ;D ;D what makes you think that is an aside ::)
http://www.stgeorgespcea.org.au/about.html
To tell the truth, I have been eyeing off a James Davidson who was a clerk working for a firm called Hughes & Hosking in Sydney. There are a number of mentions of this clerk James Davidson on trove from about 1838 until 1845 - particularly in the supreme court where this chap is a witness. It is quite interesting to follow as in the depression of 1843 Hughes & Hosking became insolvent and brought down the Bank of Australia. This James Davidson also gave money to "erect in the south end of Sydney, a Presbyterian Church, in connexion (sic) with the Established Church of Scotland" ..... (as an aside).
Please consider contacting them and asking for any info particularly about the PCEA funding circa 1846 and your knowledge about your James Davidson :D My fingers are crossing themselves again ;D
Cheers, JM
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James DAVIDSON convict of the Minstrel married another lady in 1840 who arrived as a 'free person'.
His death is in the records as drowning in 1844.
Marriage:
DAVIDSON James age 37 arrived - Minstrel (2) Life TOL married SHEEHAN Theresa age 33 arrived - Alfred CF Free
Revd. Cross 1840 at St. Thomas, Church of England Port Macquarie, (Co. Ayr) #V1840128 44B
Death:
DAVIDSON James Minstrel (2) 1844 Port Macquarie - Drowned.
REF: Principal Superintendent of Convicts - Convict Death Register 1828-1879
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In answer to Merlin first:
1. James Davidson had no siblings that I have been able to find in Laurencekirk (James was christened 15 Nov 1800 Laurencekirk - obviously a premature birth - refer 3. below).
Thanks, I asked because I found a family of immigrants on the 1828 census which probably isn't your family.
George DAVISON, wife Isabella & children who are listed as arriving 1824 on the 'Hugh Crawford'.
The children's names were Mary, Elizabeth, James & George plus a daughter Isabella who was born in the colony in 1827.
They were protestant & living at Cumberland St, Sydney.
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James DAVIDSON convict of the Minstrel married another lady in 1840 who arrived as a 'free person'.
His death is in the records as drowning in 1844.
Marriage:
DAVIDSON James age 37 arrived - Minstrel (2) Life TOL married SHEEHAN Theresa age 33 arrived - Alfred CF Free
Revd. Cross 1840 at St. Thomas, Church of England Port Macquarie, (Co. Ayr) #V1840128 44B
Death:
DAVIDSON James Minstrel (2) 1844 Port Macquarie - Drowned.
REF: Principal Superintendent of Convicts - Convict Death Register 1828-1879
Wow, so there was a chap who was 5 ft 11 and 3/4" who was impersonating that chap who drowned at Port Macquarie. :-X Well now, that's stumped me ! :o I know there were many whose names were mangled to avoid the "taint" of their convict heritage, but the chap who entered Darlinghurst Gaol under a conviction in 1845 seems to have avoided being charged with impersonation, even though he chose the name of a convict who had recently and tragically died.
JM is shocked ;D Merlin your discovery well ... it simply goes to the top of my list of "oddities" for NSW in the 1840s.
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Well, it had me scouring around for the records when I found his convict records showed this:
DAVIDSON James *M*D*CP 1825 Minstrel (2) Carlisle 1824 Life 22
Which translated in full is:
James DAVIDSON age 22yrs tried at Carlisle in 1824 given a life sentence arrived 1825 on the Minstrel (2) *M=Married *D=Death *CP=Conditional Pardon.
Then his marriage & death are also recorded in the Superintendent of Convicts records as per above post.
His CP states this:
DAVIDSON James - Minstrel (2) 302 1844, May 1
Recommended to Sec. of State by Sir George Gipps' Despatch No. 96 dated 3 May 1844.
So, I haven't a clue. I can only report what appears in the records :-\
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Umm...
I think we could be on WRONG tack
Try looking at the following :
James Davies, one of 120 convicts transported on the Minstrel, 05 April 1825. Convicted at Glasgow Court of Justiciary for a term of 14 years on 29 September 1824 Transported to New South Wales.
OR to a lessor extent (Glamorgan being a long way from Scotland)
Joseph Davies, one of 120 convicts transported on the Minstrel, 05 April 1825. Convicted at Glamorgan Great Sessions for a term of life on 04 September 1824 Transported to New South Wales.
Instead of
James Davidson, one of 120 convicts transported on the Minstrel, 05 April 1825. Convicted at Cumberland Assizes for a term of life on 24 August 1824 Transported to New South Wales.
The link :
http://www.conviz.info/convicts?boat=Minstrel&page=1
The "heads up" .... NSW SRO James Davison CONVICT DEATH REGISTER online ;)
Fingers crossed for cocksie :)
Cheers, JM
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The "heads up" .... NSW SRO James Davison CONVICT DEATH REGISTER online ;)
The microfiche shows his name as DAVIDSON so I guess a transcriber got it wrong ::)
I'm pretty sure the James DAVIES sentenced at Glasgow - Minstrel (2) 1825 was sent to Moreton Bay & married there, but I will check & see ;)
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majm & merlin
Have just got in very late from work and seen what you busy people have posted. Am too tired now to assess all the info right now (without getting totally confused) but will do so at my earliest clear headed opportunity.
I have just been rereading a book "Van Diemen's Land" by James Boyce. Very interesting - the data and information the author has collated and assessed make me wonder if my James Davidson might have arrived in Tasmania in the 1820s (convict or free man) and later moved to NSW.
I highly recommend this book - it completely changes what I thought I knew about Tassie (and to some extent NSW and VIC) in the early 1800s.
Will be back asap
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Ok, have assessed, gone to all links suggested and created a spreadsheet in an attempt to bring order to my hunt.
The Minstrel 1825 possibilities have got me stumped but this is what I have managed to put together (or am I confused?):
1. James/John (yes comes up as both) Davidson/Davison conv. 1824 Cumberland term Life. ToL Port Macqu. Labourer. Marries 1840 Theresa Sheehan Port Macqu. (no kids I can find). dies 14 Sep 1844 Port Macqu. Not feeling like my guy.
2. James Davidson b. abt 1804 Long Town Cumberland. Admitted 1845 to Darlinghurst gaol. Protestant carpenter
3. James Davidson ToL 1854 (possibly JD No. 2 above)
4. James Davidson. ToL Muswellbrook. Conv 1849 Maitland for escaping gaol. Injured in escape. (poss JD 2 & 3 above)
5. James Davies. Conv 1824 Glasgow. term 14 years. ToL Moreton Bay. Possibly married Moreton Bay (Merlin)
6. James Davidson. Conv 1824 Carlisle. CP 1844 (possibly JD 5 above)
7. James Davidson ToL 1845
8. John Davies ToL 1849
9. Joseph Davies. Conv 1824 Glamorgan, Life. ToL 1840 & 1841
I think I need assistance please to package these guys up as I believe there are only 3 JDs on the minstrel with an additional JD pretender.
I have discovered, in collation of suspect Davidson/Davison/Davies/Davis possibilities that John/James/Jno are, apparently, interchangeable as I trace them from arrival, through musters, ToL, Cp & CoF etc
The James Davison/Sutter(Elizabeth/Eliza M) marriage is, for some inexplicable reason, quite compelling and I had not thought about an earlier marriage for James. This couple has at least 3 children, possibly 4 - Elizabeth H 1821, James 1826, Ann E 1830 (Archibold T in 1831 maybe). But I can't find a death for mother which would nicely explain why James would move on to his new partner Ann(e) Kelly and do further procreating to produce my ancestor Jessie in 1835. Or maybe James just dumps Elizabeth and moves on regardless.
I have also been tracking James Davidson, clerk at Hughes & Hosking, resident of Castlereagh Street. This James Davidson disappears from Sydney electors lists, rate assessment books, newspaper articles etc by 1846 - which may or may not mean he went back to Scotland with his daughters following his employee's fall from grace and subsequent court case. jm - I have sent an email off as suggested but have not heard back - am not hopeful given recent attempts with other denominations but we will see.
AND (possibly quite exciting!)
I have also found a JOHN Davidson convicted 25 Sep 1818 in ABERDEEN. Sentenced to 14 years. Transported on the Baring, arriving Jun 1819 . I can spot him in an 1821 muster (very clearly John not James) but then he seems to go to ground. Any info/pointers on this bloke would be much appreciated.
cocksie
PS thank you SOO much for all your suggestions/assistance to date and all the fantastic weblinks you have provided. Online historical newspapers and me = paradise!
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Hi there,
Re Elizabeth SUTTER. I am fairly confident that it should be read as SUTTOR.
http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/default.htm
I think this would be her:
Eliza Maria SUTTOR, baptised at St Johns, (C of E) Parramatta, daughter of George and Maria SUTTOR. (some indexes have it as SUTTER, but) some years ago when I was regularly transcribing I clearly read SUTTOR on many of the records and recall there were references to Geo being the Superintendent of the "Lunatic Asylum" at Castle Hill.
George (Senior) and George (Junior) have many indexed entries at the Col Sec's papers 1788-1825.
I know that many of the early burials are not easily found on the NSW BDM indexes. Sometimes these are findable by other means without much difficulty.
But I will ponder and pull thinking cap again and again ;D
ADDING
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/suttor-george-1270 From this bio, you will notice he replaced Rev Marsden at that Asylum. Rev Marsden was the clergyman at St John's Parramatta, among his many duties. The bio gives Geo as the father of five sons and three daughters.
Cheers, JM
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http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/hosking-john-2200
The HUGHES family were connected to the TERRY family, so the HUGHES of H & H would most likely be John Terry HUGHES, JTH was a nephew to Samuel Terry.
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/howe-george-terry-2204 (the Sydney Gazette at Trove is this family)
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/terry-samuel-2721
Sorry, not really helping to figure out which of your candidates for JD is yours ;) but the population of the colony was quite small prior to the 1830's emigrations.
Adding
Hughes & Hoskings
http://www.dictionaryofsydney.org/entry/hosking_john#ref=49762
Cheers, JM
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The search for my JD leads me into interesting areas. I am familiar with Samuel Terry - his son & heir Edward Terry married my 3 great grand aunt Elizabeth Mann (we believe). Edward Esq died young (1838) a couple of years after being charged with a violet assault on his wife. He, however, somehow charmed his way back into his wife's good graces and the charges were dropped.
I imagine that Sydney prior to and including 1835 did not have a huge population ..... so it is intriguing to me that some of my early australian ancestors are so hard to find, track or trace (ok, ok, I accept that the lower working class, poverty struck, convict types probably didn't write letters to the editor) - the women in particular. And they are the ones that often intrigue me the most.
cocksie
PS James Davidson of the Minstral 1825 up in Maitland was also known as James Wilson or James Writson. Bushranger, in and out and escaping from gaol. Robbed the Singleton mail, attempted to stab a constable, then escaped from gaol with a William Smith before being apprehended. 6ft, well built, weathered with determined appearance. Ended up getting 10 year road sentence, 3 in chains. Must have been a good boy in gaol as ToL in 1854 Muswellbrook. Aint mine but an interesting story.
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Re SUTTOR
This link shows a submitted tree for George Suttor and his wife, Sarah Maria Dobinson. It shows Eliza Maria SUTTOR 1801-1879 and as their daughter, also has Eliza's marriage 22 Sept 1819 to James Davison.
At that link, the submitter has that James Davison 1799-1862, arriving NSW 13 June 1802, (ex the Coromandel) as the son of James Arthur DAVISON and his wife Jane Johnston.
http://www.easystreetretreat.com.au/australianroyalty/individual.php?pid=I70651&ged=purnellmccord.ged#personal_facts
The 1879 death for Eliza has not been clearly sourced, it relies on email exchanges, and does not include day/month or place. I would hope it is not relying on the NSW BDM index giving and Eliza DAVIDSON d.c. # 5526 registered Goulburn, with parents named on that index as William O and Ann.
Oops, adding (fingers ahead of the grey cells) from NSW BDM online index I note that James Davison d.c. 1862 # 1483, gives age 65, death in the Newtown district.
Cheers, JM
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jm
thanks for the lead.
Have had a snoop around. The James Davison who married Elizabeth/Eliza M Sutter did come on the Commondel with his father, mother and brother James - all free. This is the James Davison Snr, James Davison Jnr with others who buy up great amounts of land over the next 30 years or so. I have tracked this family previously through papers and BDMs etc but somehow missed the marriage of James Jnr to Eliza M (this piece of jigsaw slots in nicely).
This lot of Davidsons/Davisons is not mine - they leave great tracks and traces to follow that in no way fit in a James Davison (parents George & Isabel from Scotland) shacking up with an Ann(e) Kelly and having two daughters in 1835 and 1838.
With your help I am, at least, deleting suspects!
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With your help I am, at least, deleting suspects!
We just need to find a physical description of YOUR lad ! that will help re the 6ft tall chap with a criminal record a yard long !
Cheers, JM
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Am laughing
Because I have actually (over the years) made contact with a number of descendents of my JDs daughters (and, wierdly enough, descendents of JDs partner's later children) ..... from what I can gather none of us are 6ft, possibly few of us have a "determined appearance" and more and more of us are looking "weathered". ;D
But all of us are stuck with the JD brickwall and his brickwall partner Ann(e) Kelly (who also left a confusing, contradictory and nonsensical trail).
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Re Hughes & Hosking (the JD who was clerking there etc)
http://www.law.mq.edu.au/research/colonial_case_law/nsw/cases/case_index/1840/hosking_v_rosetta_terry_and_others/
http://www.law.mq.edu.au/research/colonial_case_law/nsw/cases/case_index/1827/r_v_davison/ James Davison, late of Pitt-town, in the Colony of New South Wales, was indicted for stealing three cows, and two bullocks, the property of Richard Cobcroft, at Wilberforce, on the 12th of June last. Further trial also noted later that same year.
(Tip Mr Geggle is your friend type into search engine box "Macquarie Law School : Davidson" )
Laughing here too, you forgot to mention if any had yard long crim sheets to hide in their closets...
Cheers, JM
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Re JD who came free on the Coromandel... There must be a colonial sentence because he was awarded a Colonial Pardon 12 Oct 1832. There should be a physical description on that ;D and info about the offence.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx
Adding I am looking at an Absolute Pardon issued in the 1840s, for a 'came free' person. Sorry, I don't have any 1832 Pardons at hand ::)
But the 1840s one ..... It names the arrival ship, and date of arrival, gives the full name and place of birth of the person, age of the person when tried and the trial place and original sentence and a full description (height, hair/eyes colour, complexion etc) of the offender as well as the reason for the AP (wrong chap charged, committed, tried by jury, represented by a leading legal wig who failed to convince the jury, then several months later the 'right' chap was located by the Police :-X ). Just as well a capital sentence was not awarded.
Cheers, JM
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Re JD who came free on the Coromandel... There must be a colonial sentence because he was awarded a Colonial Pardon 12 Oct 1832. There should be a physical description on that ;D and info about the offence.
I have noticed that CP for JD Coromandel. It is either for JD Snr (father) OR JD Jnr (son). I "think" the JD jnr (who married Eliza M Suttor) got into the trouble with alleged cattle stealing a few times (he and his father, brother etc were all living in the area where the alleged cattle stealing occurred). I read through and followed the cattle stealing items (number of them) in the law link you sent and also through the newspapers. It was all a bit "iffy" and actually very interesting. That JD was found guilty of cattle stealing on very tenuous evidence and given a certain kind of death sentence (that actually did not mean death) that was usually lifted .... and, according to what I read, usually resulted in a Col P later down the track.
Do you not sleep?
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Sleepless JM wonders if that 1832 pardon gives a physical description of the person receiving the CP to help eliminate names on the list.
Cheers JM
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Quick update and odd query for your comment and thoughts please.
Now have collated a spreadsheet of hell of all possible James/John/Joseph/Josiah Davidsons/Davisons/Davies/Davies that I can trace coming to and in OZ between 1810 (age 10, young crim) and 1835 (when first daughter is born) and am slowly attacking each one. I have traced all the Minstrel possibilities (including the captured bushranger using the alias Davidson - he is also known as Wilson & Writson so this could possibly explain some confusion). Minstrel suspects are nearly eliminated. Coromandel suspects (James Snr, James Jnr & John) are elimi" nated (Am 95% certain that James the younger is the one who married Eliza M Sutter, probably the one who got "done" a few times for alleged "cattle stealing" (although whether he actually did steal them is somewhat debatable) and is therefore possibly got the Col P. Plus some others so only have 76 listings of possibilities left to go. But have had a lovely time trawling Scottish court records in order to eliminate some suspects (or not) as well as going through all your helpful weblinks.
The suspect who is currently piquing my interest is a John Davidson who arrived on the Baring 2 in 1819, convicted in Aberdeen - but have not found his court record(s) yet, which is frustrating as all the other Scottish suspects/court records have been easy to find. I keep trawling!
However, when the above exploration was driving me mad I went through (with a fine tooth comb) all the documents collated on the daughters of James Davidson.
Daughter Jessie Davidson's baptism certificate of 1835 (St Philips parish Anglican, minister the famous William Cowper) was a little "sparse" with information so I contacted the relevent Anglican Church and (I love them) they photographed the baptism entry from the register and sent it to me via email. No additional info on in except is the most beautiful handwriting.
I only have a jpeg of the second daughter's baptism certificate - Mary Jane Davidson in 1838 - which was emailed to me by her descendant. But is is somewhat intriguing and has got me thinking ...... Mary Jane was baptised 5 months after birth at Parish of St Andrews by the interesting Rev J Garvie Presbyterian (somewhat delayed) AND Parents ABODE is listed as:
"Sydney now Port Phillip (Geelong)"
This is odd ..... what do you think this means?
I have sent off a couple of emails to the Presbyterian people to see where the actual register would be held (I believe Rev Garvie's church is no longer) but have not heard back yet.
cocksie
PS, majm - have not heard back from St george church re subscription list yet
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Hi
1835 entry is sparse ... probably suggesting it is a transmitted record ie ALL clergy from ALL denominations were supposed to transmit summary info to St Phillips as that was the HQ for NSW Chaplain. So poss full details would be at same church as the 1838 church.. Poss images for original record PRE transmittal would be held NSW SL in Sydney
Geelong was within the NSW colony's district of Port Phillip. Geelong has not moved but in 1851 the colony of Victoria was formally establised by hiving it off NSW
Delays in forwarding mail between Port Phillip (Melbourne) and Port Jackson (Sydney) due to sailing rather than overland movement
Keep at it ...
Cheers JM
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So it is poss that JD was on an appointment task for NSW Col Sec or Surveyor General or NSW Governor re establishing Geelong... and he returned to Sydney for his daughter's Presb baptism... IF so it would be UNLIKELY that that Mrs JD and ther 1st girl would have travelled to and back from Geelong due to her confinement .... ALL speculations of course... but I think Mrs JD would have chosen Sydney over a tent ..
Cheers JM
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S but I think Mrs JD would have chosen Sydney over a tent ..
Cheers JM
You don't know Mrs JD quite like I know her - she shacks up with anyone, tent or otherwise. At last and confirmed known account = children have 3 different fathers (one found marriage) with a possible 4th father lurking for one child.
So your reading is the same as mine being: at least one of the parents was aboding (is that word) in Geelong (possibly).
My thought process is thus - eldest daughter born & baptised (within the month) in Sydney in 1835.
Parents possibly move to Geelong area (reason unknown but I do like the idea that at least one of my ancestor was literate and with important surveyors).
Second daughter born in April 1838 in Geelong and family moves back to Sydney by Sep 1838 where they have second daughter baptised.
Now ... this is potentially getting interesting and might have a bearing on my search for the elusive father James Davidson.
OOOOOHHHH
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Hi
1835 entry is sparse ... probably suggesting it is a transmitted record ie ALL clergy from ALL denominations were supposed to transmit summary info to St Phillips as that was the HQ for NSW Chaplain. So poss full details would be at same church as the 1838 church.. Poss images for original record PRE transmittal would be held NSW SL in Sydney
Cheers JM
Not sure I understand (sorry, am relatively new at this stuff). Cert & photograph of register both have William Cowper as Minster doing the ceremony. I have read up on Mr Cowper and I understood he was a well known Anglican minister. Why would the cert & register have him as the ceremony minister if it was a transmission summary from another church (with another minister) to St Philips? Am confused.
cocksie
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Re WHY
Because the printed form words oops, modifying to read : "of the wording of the printed form"...
However St Phillips contains transmiited summaries of bdm events that did not occur within St P's building. From at least 1810 its parish registers also include those summaries frrom ALL other denominations where the clergy chose to fulfill CIVIL regulations re forwarding from outlying districts/islands to NSW Gov appointed Chaplains ... Wm Cowper was Principal Chaplain. So there are Wesleyan, Scotch, Church of Rome and other dems at St Phillips . They were meant to be transmitted quarterly but the Gov did not provide funding so the civil law was obeyed more by its breach that by its adherence.
Cheers JM
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Some thoughts
Some online background re Geelong
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4172739 Hobart Courier 31 March 1837
Have you looked through the Trove newspapers for likely candidates for the father of the lass baptised 1835? Look for Mr Davidson in the 18 months prior to that baptism, eg
Which Mr Davidson was the one who was a gentleman connected witht he counting-house of Messrs Daves, Gore, & Co? (although no INITIAL for his first name)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12849150 The Sydney Herald 21 April 1834,
Which Mr Davidson was a clerk to Mr (John) Richards in his Coach Establishment?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12849566 SMH 9 June 1834
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
I don't know if you have considered some secondary resources, but there's many. Some are mostly indexes of indexes of combined BDM, Musters, Shipping Lists, Military Lists etc, but all give pointers to help. One in particular would be "The Paracensus of Australia 1788-1828", (JH Donohoe); I have checked for its availability at the National Library of Australia and it is mentioned several times in their electronic catalogue at this link:
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/
Cheers, JM
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:)
Now, who was this particular James Davidson ::)
From NSW Govt Gazettes
Colonial Secretary 's Office,Sydney, 5th January, 1836
CAMPBELLTOWN, James Davidson , dismissed
Colonial Secretary 's Office,Sydney, 19th January, 1836
CAMPBELLTOWN.
Richard Watkins, free, to be Constable from the 4th instant, and to be stationed at Narellan, in the room of James Davidson, dismissed.
Also, try this link http://gazette.slv.vic.gov.au/
Oops, adding
Also, re Rev John McGarvie : http://www.dictionaryofsydney.org/entry/scots
Cheers, JM
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I don't know if you have considered some secondary resources, but there's many. Some are mostly indexes of indexes of combined BDM, Musters, Shipping Lists, Military Lists etc, but all give pointers to help. One in particular would be "The Paracensus of Australia 1788-1828", (JH Donohoe).
JM, I have 'The Paracensus of Australia 1788-1828'. I will look at it later when I have some spare time :)
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hi
Roots Web - Davidson dated 16 Jul 2007 has James Davidson occ refiner /lawyer dying 1885 bendigo Victoria 72 wife Anne Kelly/Jones, daughters Jessie born 1835 at Cowper Mary Jane born 1838 Sydney. There are other comments from family members
Muss
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Hi there,
Sorry for long post
:) Further to the Registers at St Phillips
i) General Orders issued by Gov Lachlan Macquarie provide instructions regarding the civil administrations requirements for the recording of baptisms and burials:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/628072 Sydney Gazette 22 Sept 1810
ii) Legislation (Georgii IV No 21) Gov Thomas Brisbane regarding the recording of and transmitting of records of Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, solemnised in the Colony of NSW or any of its Dependencies and towards the end of this cutting :
“(in Case the same shall not have been solemnized or performed by the Established Minister of the Parish wherein the same shall have been solemnized or performed) be transmitted, within One Week from and after such Solemization, to such Established Minister; and such Certificate shall be signed and entered by such Minister, in like Manner as if the same had been by him so solemnized or performed” ..... http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2184654 Sydney Gazette 7 Nov 1825
:) From several paragraphs in the Introduction to the book “The Catholics of Nsw 1788-1820 and their Families (JH Donohoe) :
ii) ... “It is most misleading for a researcher to believe that the Church of England records exclude Catholics. It does not.... It should be remembered that those registers were never exclusive to the Church of England. .....To suggest that any person found recorded in them was of that faith only is a misnomer”.....
:) From info about the Editor of above book
“.... a career Public Servant who has spent thirty years in various areas of Public Administration including .... the NSW Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages”.
So the register at St Phillips, contains far more than just records of C of E BDM celebrated at St Phillips, but as an aside ::)
“Persons who may wilfully insert false or forged entries, to be guilty of felony, punishable by transportation for fourteen years.” http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2446837 Colonial Times (Hobart) 23 Dec 1825
;D Please don't ask what happened to the clergy who failed to transmit TRUE entries, it probably depended on the proving of wilfulness, v civil law v ecclesiastical law but at the moment I haven't got ready access to my notes as I have lent them to an elderly family member for their comment. Relying on memory, I doubt there was any contemporary checking of original records against those in St Phillips registers, and I am aware of the hesitance of some clergy of various denominations providing the Established Church with any information about their own congregations. Compound that with the then prevailing conditions re mail, civil regulations, lack of funding from civil authorities for clergy to perform civil admin functions etc ... I think it would have been a dilemma, but without those St Phillips registers, ::) ::)
Cheers, JM
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hi
Roots Web - Davidson dated 16 Jul 2007 has James Davidson occ refiner /lawyer dying 1885 bendigo Victoria 72 wife Anne Kelly/Jones, daughters Jessie born 1835 at Cowper Mary Jane born 1838 Sydney. There are other comments from family members
Muss
Yep there are a few websites, family trees out there but they have the information incorrect. I have the marriage certificate of Jessie (found in my deceased grandfathers things) and the occupation of James as "refiner/lawyer" is incorrect. I know where this misinformation comes from - a transcription done incorrectly (which I have seen).
The info re Jessie born at "Cowper" is also incorrect - somehow the surname of the minister, listed on baptism cert, William Cowper has ended up being the place of birth ... not sure how this info got so weird.
James Davidson definitely did not die in Bendigo in 1885 as Jessie & Mary Jane list him as deceased in 1856 when they come back to Australia (having spent some time in Scotland living with their paternal grandparents) and also both girls list him father as deceased at their marriages in 1857 & 1860 respectively (but both put down all info on their Mother including her married surname to Samuel Jones (m. 1847).
I, and a number of other descendants of Jessie & Mary Jane (that I have met during this search for James Davidson) have tried to correct the misinformation out there (some of the other descendants have been trying since 2001 to correct this) but to no avail - despite sending/showing a fairly large stack of bcs, mcs, dcs, census, newspaper articles etc.
Thank you for responding though
cocksie
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Hi there,
:) Further to the Registers at St Phillips
i) General Orders issued by Gov Lachlan Macquarie provide instructions regarding the civil administrations requirements for the recording of baptisms and burials:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/628072 Sydney Gazette 22 Sept 1810
ii) Legislation (Georgii IV No 21) Gov Thomas Brisbane regarding the recording of and transmitting of records of Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, solemnised in the Colony of NSW or any of its Dependencies and towards the end of this cutting :
“(in Case the same shall not have been solemnized or performed by the Established Minister of the Parish wherein the same shall have been solemnized or performed) be transmitted, within One Week from and after such Solemization, to such Established Minister; and such Certificate shall be signed and entered by such Minister, in like Manner as if the same had been by him so solemnized or performed” ..... http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2184654 Sydney Gazette 7 Nov 1825
.......
This is causing me quite some consternation!
How, therefore, does one work out if the bc (& in my case the photograph of the parish register page as well) is, in fact a transmitted entry to Mr Cowper or a "real" entry?
I understand the information you posted about the Catholic entries - which explains why many of my very early ancestors in OZ APPEAR to be baptising one child CoE and one child Catholic (and continuing on in this vein so it all APPEARS to be willy nilly - whichever church is closest at the time).
Thank you for all the other info and links in your earlier postings today - will need a bit of time to explore and trawl!
cocksie
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:)
Now, who was this particular James Davidson ::)
From NSW Govt Gazettes
Colonial Secretary 's Office,Sydney, 5th January, 1836
CAMPBELLTOWN, James Davidson , dismissed
Colonial Secretary 's Office,Sydney, 19th January, 1836
CAMPBELLTOWN.
Richard Watkins, free, to be Constable from the 4th instant, and to be stationed at Narellan, in the room of James Davidson, dismissed.
Am pretty sure that this JD is the same one listed on one of your trove links (which I have just read). The newspaper article legal case "Watkins vs Soloman". Pretty sure the "Watkins" referred to in the article as the lessee of the Inn (Mr Davidson clerk & witness) where whole matter blew up! Campbelltown also mentioned in the article.
This is all getting very interesting!
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Hi there,
Re your replies # 43, & 44
:) #43 ... baptism record issues
Regardless of if anyone had a photo of the parish register page or not, the record that St Phillips holds is of itself a ‘real’ entry, as it was a requirement of the civil authorities that the Established Church, (of which St Phillips was the ‘seat’ for the NSW Chaplain) make a record of the baptisms (and burials and marriages). There is no easy way to determine if it is a record of a baptism that occurred at St Phillips, celebrated by Rev Cowper, or if it was a transmitted record, just by looking at that entry in that register.
An alternative to that register, is the NSW State Library’s film holdings of quite a number records of baptisms, burials, marriages. For example, (four families in my tree who were in NSW from early settlement times)
:) From my own tree I know that a marriage was celebrated by William Cowper back in the 1810s, yet all the children were raised as Roman Catholics. Most, but not all of the baptisms for those children are recorded in the St Phillips records, and in some cases, I can find where the baptisms are either noted in the RC priest’s diary, or are findable via the St Marys Chapel and later the St Marys Cathedral records. And the film at NSW SL for that marriage provides greater detail than the St Phillips entry. It includes the ages of the bride and groom, and the name of the arrival ships (they were with a regiment, so I then found where the regiment had approved the marriage, thus the pension issues were sorted)
:) From my own tree, I have a baptism for one baby, it shows up at least three times at the NSW BDM index, she was baptised according to Wesleyan rites, and the NSW SL film shows the date that the Wesleyan Rev transmitted the summary to “Wm Cowper”. St Phillips record gives the usual info, BUT the NSW SL film gives me the following additional information: the occupation of the father, his place of employment, his residential address, his then age, the date of birth of the baby, her place of birth, the mother’s nee, their date of marriage (in England), and the name of the ship of arrival, all three Christian names for the baby, all three Christian names for the father, and all four Christian names for the mother (I presume because there was no further space left, the Wesleyan Rev forgot to mention the names of the baby girl’s older siblings)
So I hope that gives you a clearer background to remove those appearances of Willy Nilly. He can be a cad as he sets out to confuse lots of people, lots of times. I know, because he has caught me out on more than one occasion ;D.
:) # 44 The Police Constable
:) The James Davidson who was dismissed from the position of a Police Constable, in the Campbelltown District in Jan 1836, so the questions that spring to my mind are
:) When was he appointed, how old was he when appointed
:) Where was he born, and if overseas, how and when did he arrive
:) Why was he dismissed (and not permitted to resign) and What happened to him after 5 Jan 1836
:) The Richard Watkins who replaced him as Police Constable in the Campbelltown District may and may NOT be the person you have mentioned. There’s at least two possible mentions in Col Sec’s papers 1788-1825
WATKINS. Captain, 84th Regiment, to Sydney from Tasmania in Nov 1819 and Jan 1821
WATKINS, Richard, Stonemason. On list of all persons victualled from H.M. Magazines Sept 1821
:) Re Watkins v Solomon, Sydney Gazette 13 March, 1834, http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2215620
That Mr Watkins was the Proprietor of the Talbott Inn, Brickfield Hill (right in the heart of Sydney, many miles from Narellan, Campbelltown), but Watkins was only the nominal owner, as his assigned servant was the occupier/day to day operator. But alas, I cannot find a given name for that Mr Watkins.
Question if I may, Are you able to get to the NSW State Library, Macquarie St Sydney? I expect to be in Sydney sometime after Easter 2012, and if I can spare the time, I may get to NSW SL, but my TO DO list is already quite substantial ::)
Cheers, JM
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All is now clear.
I think I need to spend a fair bit more time retrawling, reinvestigating and adding to my spreadsheet. Then will need to reassess what info I have or do not have.
Thank you for explaining the baptism stuff in plain English. I read and read and read but sometimes just end up confusing myself.
Actually have to go up to NSW for annual family get together in January so am now trying to work out how to fit in a day (or more) at NSW SL.
Once again, thank you all for your help. Time for you all to have a break from the elusive James Davidson! I have more than enough to look into!
cocksie
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Re the Constable at Campbelltown
Campbelltown Police Constables 1835 (its police force consisted of constable and one scourger in Oct 1835)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12853230
10 February, 1835 Thomas Lenaire resigned and was replaced by Elias Watson
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2197332
26th April, 1835 Elias Watson resigned and was replaced by Daniel Kelly (Ann Kelly alert)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2198097
Cheers, JM, and thank you for your thank you. I am so pleased that my wordsmith skills are improving. ;)
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Hi there,
I am tidying up my fh desk, so just adding some of my “loose ends” re James Davidson ... speculations of course
Not sure about this chap, but PERHAPS he was long ‘gone’ by 1860 when the 1861 directory closed, and perhaps was not actually there in 1858, perhaps Mrs Margaret Davidson had paid for the directory entry, submitting it as Mrs James Davidson and the printer missed setting up the “Mrs”. ::) As I said, speculations, but the following is as cited:
From Sands Commercial Directory 1858 (Sydney)
James Davidson, Boarding House Establishment, 245 Kent St
Sands Commercial Directory 1861 (Sydney)
Mrs Margaret Davidson, boarding house, 245 Kent St
Sands Commercial Directory 1863 (Sydney)
Mrs Margaret Davidson, lodging house, 245 Kent St
Sands Trade & Professional Dir 1863 (Sydney) Boarding & Lodging Houses
Mrs Margaret Davison, 245 Kent Street (checked spelling, NO "d'')
Sands Alpha Directory 1867 (Sydney)
Mrs Davidson, 245 Kent Street
I had not got to the online City of Sydney Assessment books re 245 Kent St.
I will be very involved in real life celebrations for a rellie hitting the TON during the next week or so,
Fingers crossed you will solve the mystery of your James before the following TON is reached by my rellies (next one is hoped for around Easter 2012, there's 8 alive and alert born between 1911 and 1920 ... no "Willy Nilly" all "Long Livers" ;D ).
Cheers, JM
-
Hi
Just to throw in one more . Who is this James Davidson died 21 Apr 1851 Probate 9 Sep 1852 (Archives Investigator NSW State Archives)
Muss
-
Hi
Just to throw in one more . Who is this James Davidson died 21 Apr 1851 Probate 9 Sep 1852 (Archives Investigator NSW State Archives)
Muss
Well found Muss,
That probate packet could be very interesting, you could well have found him ... those dates are critically close to the Scottish info.
Cocksie, probate packets can contain not just the last will and testament, and not just the executor's submissions, but if there was any dispute etc, they can contain the evidence submitted to the Supreme court, Ecces Division that would have first ruled on the Probating matter, and if the disputing parties appealed to the full bench of the Supreme Court, then there's that evidence also likely to be in that file. Evidence around that era (I have several probate packets from rellies disputes in that era) included bdm documents (baptismal certificates come to mind), witness statements, the Judges notes, (and comments about the witnesses) etc. You can view the probate packet at the NSW SRO at Kingswood (at least an hour by car from NSW SL) or you can order copy direct, I think last packet I got was around $40, best spend, file was three packets full (takes up whole lever arch file here), contained lots and lots of family history goodies.
When the girls returned to NSW, with their mum's sponsorship, the girls would have given the info that their father was deceased, but WHO told them and who told their mum ?
Do you have their mum's d.c. and does it list any info about JD ? if after civil registrations commenced (from 1856, critical years those 1850s) then hopefully there will be info about JD on her death registration ... eg what age was she when she married him.
Cheers, JM
Cheers, JM
-
Hi
I was told that you pay Probate where you have assets, therefore he could have died in Scotland. I have one that died in Australia but has paid probate in New Zealand.
Muss
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Hi,
Very much agree with Muss, the probate packet should also give info as to place of death, and if not in NSW, there could well be copy of the ‘foreign’ d.c. or burial order etc as proof of death for the Court’s requirements. There may have been probate in several countries. This is often noted in NSW probate packets.
Found some more of my notes re JD ... (in my handbag of all places)
Seems I have noted Two entries at NSW BDM for Anne Kelly’s 1847 marriage to Samuel Jones. One in Vol 78 and one in Vol 74B.
So my thoughts are that one is a transmitted copy. I think vols from 74 to 100 or there abouts are for non C of E marriages, but which one (74B or 78) would give the greater depth of detail, not sure but I think Vol 78 (relying on grey cells, and I can be wrong).
Wonder if either would give info re Anne Kelly’s parentage, or her age, her status etc. Remember the clergy had just two options re status, the clergy recorded this as either spinster or as widow, but the use of the word ‘widow’ had a much broader meaning, and was not restricted to a woman with children whose husband was deceased. The ‘seven year’ separation rule was quite current in the 1840s. (Convictions can cause separations, so to can travel ‘beyond the seas’, and removal to another colony). 1838 + 7 = 1845.
Also my handbag notes have
Judge Donnithorne was near 80 at death in 1852, ex Bengal Civil, knew George IV, (perhaps even George III) thus he could be part of leading society in Sydney, so not surprising he had a concubine. This could be clue as to separation from JD. Wonder when their (Judge and Anne) first child was born, and what surname was given on his/her baptismal certificate, as this could help confirm Anne Kelly’s birth surname, which could find the elusive marriage of JD to Ann/e.
Cheers, JM
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Hi
Just to throw in one more . Who is this James Davidson died 21 Apr 1851 Probate 9 Sep 1852 (Archives Investigator NSW State Archives)
This James Davidson of Sydney died April 1851 in Calcutta, India.
There are several advertisments listed in The Empire & SMH for 8th-12th Jan 1852.
-
Hi
From the New Family Search
James Davidson died 21 Apr 1851 Calcuuta Bengal India age 57
no parents listed
Muss
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Hi
from Syd Gazette 31 may 1822 - ship Medway James Davidson Esq- Supercargo ( in charge of cargo)
Muss
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Oh my goodness! Not sure where to start, but will try to reply in consecutive order. LOOOOONNNNG POST
majm
Have started looking into the constable at Campbelltown. Interestingly another 3ggf was a Sergeant there in 1846 - so I, at least, have some experience with tracing this area.
I have been into the Sydney Rate assessment books online and found JD (linked back to the JD of Hosking & Hughes via newspaper articles listing this clerk in relation with this firm and residing in Castlereagh St) listed at 51 Castlereagh Street in 1845, and (now from memory without looking at my notes) somehow connected with this address in 1848. Have also linked JD clerk of Hosking & Hughes as working at that firm/or related to that firm at least between 1838-1846.
muss!!!!
I like this probate find. Thank you all for description of what could be in it. Have a day off work today so guess where I am going to go to next via the internet! Will report back in on this one.
cocksie
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Original post TOO LONG so doing it in bits:
majm
Your point about the girls coming back in 1856, how they knew their dad was deceased (until recently I assumed he had gone back to Scotland with them, dumped them at his parents, died, grandparents died, girls back to Sydney), the obvious contact with their mum, knowledge of mum's marriage and new surname - all was topic of discussion last night with my father. A point - James' death was known by girls in 1852 one would assume, given that the informant for the dc of George Davidson (James' father) knew.
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Ann(e) Kelly/Davidson/Jone's dc is complete gobbeldy gook - which is interesting as 1st known daughter, Jessie, is informant. I will list details of Ann's dc here (my notes in italics):
Date & place of death: 1897 28th October 44 College St Camperdown (doesn't read like that to me but apparently that is what it is, based on newspaper notices)
Name & occupation: Anne Jones, None
Sex & age: Female 80 years
Cause of Death Duration, medical attendant & when he last saw deceased: Senile Decay Asthemia, not stated, E J Jenkins, 22 October 1897
Name & occupation of father, Name & maiden surname of mother 1. Kelly, 2. Blacksmith. 3. (stamped) unknown
Informant: Jessie Cocks daughter of deceased 15 Bligh St, Sydney
Particulars of registration: (can't read name) 2nd November 1897 Newtown
When & where buried; name of undertaker: 1897 29th October Church of England Cemetery Rookwood, Elizabeth Kirby
Name and religion of Mnister & names of witnesses of burial: J W Unwin, Church of England, Minister. W H Kirby, R J Thomas
Where born & how long in the Australasian Colonies of States: At Sea (?????? - can't find this anywhere), 80 years in NS Wales (puts birth around 1817, first "marriage" around 1835 and second marriage around 1845 - a bit not quite right but reasonably close)
Place of marriage, age, and to whom: (starts to get interesting from now on)
(1 in handwriting) Sydney NSW
1. (2 next to it in handwriting) Sydney NSW
(1 in handwriting) 18 years
2. 28 years
3.
(1 in handwriting) James Davidson
(2 in handwriting) Samuel Jones
Children of marriage (now gets wierder so I will try to type exactly, with underlines, just as written)
Jessie 62 years
living
2 Females deceased
Issue of first marriage
James 50 years
living
1male
2 females deceased
Issue of Second marriage
-
Continuing on from Ann dc
The reason why this info is odd:
Issue of first marriage (to Davidson albeit we cannot find this marriage):
A. Jessie's sister, Mary Jane, was well & truely alive at this time - although apparently they were estranged by this time. Which is odd as they were very close at least until the early 1890s (Mary Jane married at Jessie's house, MJ's daughter later worked for Jessie's publican husband). - but Jessie does not list her as alive. Elderly descendents of Mary Jane have stories of the closeness of Jessie & Mary Jane.
B. We have no idea who Jessie was referring to as the "2 females deceased" Mary Jane is alive at the time. Have not found birth of possible 3rd daughter.
Issue of second marriage (Jones)
C. James is actually son of the Judge Donnithorne (long story, but bc V1841271 25A/1841 DONTHORNE James to James & Ann, listed in the Judge's will after Judge death in 1852 (along with Ann), James also lists dad as Donnithorne in his dc. Lists his surname as Kelly on mc. James went by following surnames in his lifetime - Donnithorne, Jones and Kelly, lived with his mother and stepfather Samuel Jones and later took his mother's name Kelly, before also adding the Donnithorne back. Tended to swap around as suited - also led an "interesting" life. I have transcription of Judge Donnithorne's will dated May 1852
"..... bequeath an annuity of 20 pounds unto Ann the wife of Samuel Jones of Sydney, labourer, formerly Ann Kelly, spinster, during her life, for her sole and separate use independently and exclusively of her present or any future husbands ... I give and devise all my land and hereditaments situate at Kiama in the said Colony unto the said Ann Jones, her heirs and assigns. But nevertheless to the uses and upon the trusts following (that is to say) as one undivided moiety of the same hereditaments to the use of her son James (who was baptized at St Philips Church Sydney on or about the 14th day of November 1841 under the name of James the son of James and Ann (Donthorn).."
D. Known children of Ann & Samuel Jones
William b. 1847 (I do not have bc). Assumed death - not found conclusively - before 1860 based on non-listing in father's dc 1860
Edmund/Edward b. 1850 (I do not have bc). d. 1875 dc Informant sister in law Elizabeth Jones (James Donnithorne/Jones/Kelly's wife),
Isabella Jones b 1854 (I do not have bc), d.1862 (dc Informant: James Kelly stepbrother)
E. Totally unconfirmed birth of an Anna Kelley in 1845 to a William and Ann Kelley - from an alleged descendent who is convinced that Anna is child of Ann Kelly & the judge Donnithorne but registered as child of Ann Kelly and another of the Judge's employees (who managed property for the judge down in Kyneton, Victoria). Tried to get a bc from BDM but inquiries provided the response the information is too damaged to get information off it. It remains on my list to get (via a transcription agent) when $$$ available. In support of this theory Judge Donnithorne's will also states
" ... to the use of the said Ann Jones, her heirs and assigns to be held by her .... in favour of her daughter Anna (who was baptized at St Philips Church Sydney aforesaid on or about the 4th of January 1846 under the name of Anna, the daughter of William and Ann Kelly) ....
So you can see that qty's of children listed on Ann's dc do not add up - either Jessie was distraught/confused ...... or I am ....... or her mother's life was just way too confusing to remember.
-
And somehow, while cutting and pasting info for reply I have lost the last bit I wrote which went something like:
I think you are all amazing, given the scant and sometimes scatty timeline of information I have posted. You also now know way more about JD's partner, Ann Kelly, than you probably wanted to know.
Summary of known JD facts and information (just so I don't lose track):
1. James Davidson b 1800 Laurencekirk Scotland to George & Isabel/Isabella Davidson. bc
2. 1835 NSW listed as father (clerk) to Jessie Davidson. Wife listed as Ann Davidson. Abode Sydney
3. 1838 NSW listed as father (clerk) to Mary Jane Davidson. Wife listed as Ann Kelly. Abode "Sydney now Port Phillip (Geelong)"
4. 1841 & 1845 Ann Kelly (mother) procreating with Judge Donnithorne
5. 1847 Ann Kelly (mother) marries Samuel Jones and procreates
6. 1851. Both girls found in 1851 Scotland Census, Mary Jane living with paternal grandparents, Jessie working around the corner.
7. 1855. Grandpa George dies. Informant lists George's son, James as deceased in 1852
8. 1856. Girls lists father James Davidson deceased on their immigration papers. Also list mother as Ann Jones living in Sydney
9. 1857. Jessie mc lists father as James Davidson, lawyer(dreaming?)/clerk deceased.
10. 1860 Mary Jane mc lists father & occupation as not known and crossed out
11. 1903. Jessie dc informant (son) lists Jessie's father as James Davidson, General Merchant
12. 1912 Mary Jane dc informant (daughter) lists Mary Jane's father as James Davidson, occupation unknown
-
Hi
from Syd Gazette 31 may 1822 - ship Medway James Davidson Esq- Supercargo ( in charge of cargo)
Muss
Muss
I also saw this the other night but did not know what Supercargo meant (put it on my list of things to find out). You have now answered this. There are later articles about this JD of the Medway and they are not nice but I have not uncovered the whole story - on my list to unravel
-
Hi
Just to throw in one more . Who is this James Davidson died 21 Apr 1851 Probate 9 Sep 1852 (Archives Investigator NSW State Archives)
This James Davidson of Sydney died April 1851 in Calcutta, India.
There are several advertisments listed in The Empire & SMH for 8th-12th Jan 1852.
Off to check out now. Thank you merlin
PHEW, think I have managed to respond now to everybody's help from the past 24 hours.
cocksie
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I don't know if you have considered some secondary resources, but there's many. Some are mostly indexes of indexes of combined BDM, Musters, Shipping Lists, Military Lists etc, but all give pointers to help. One in particular would be "The Paracensus of Australia 1788-1828", (JH Donohoe).
JM, I have 'The Paracensus of Australia 1788-1828'. I will look at it later when I have some spare time :)
I have checked 'The Paracensus of Australia 1788-1828' there are many references for various JD's in the records listed if you require the information you will need to PM me an email address where I can send it to you.
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Hi
I have just spent some time reading all the reports of Eliza Donnithorne's non marriage events, she was the daughter of Judge Donnithorne. What a story.
Was Judge Donnitorne in India ? ( What time period ?) Did he know James Davidson in India?
Sorry for the questions, I keep thinking of Eliza and her sad life.
Muss
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Hi
From new Family Search
Anna Kelley born 21 Oct 1845 Bap 4 Jan 1846 St Phillips Father William Mother Ann
Muss
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muss
thank you for the new Family Search info, particularly with birth of Anna Kelley (I had extrapolated baptism from Judge Donnithorne's will).
I also got sidetracked with the Eliza Donnithorne story a while back. But some of the myth/legend does not quite "work". The Judge died in 1852 and the alleged "non wedding" allegedly took place in 1856. So the stuff about the Judge sending groom away is rubbish - unless one believes in ghosts. I tracked Judge Donnithorne's children back and it appears to me the Eliza was born in 1816 so she was a tad on the old side to be giving first birth in 1856 but not impossible. I can't find anything remotely on NSW BDM relating to this child (with either a Donnithorne, Kelly or Jones surname) in 1846 ...... but one COULD wonder about the Anna Kelley b. 1845 - it could be Eliza's illegitimate child (and the dates of the myth are incorrect), or the Judge & Ann's child, or Ann & William Kelly's child - might remain a mystery.
Onto the possible India connection. It did cross my mind in the early hours of this morning. Judge came to OZ from India around 1836 (from memory) but at least one of his sons (Edward) remained in India serving in the military. In theory, if my JD had an India connection then JD could have met the Judge in India prior to 1835 and certainly could have had a connection with Edward if JD travelled back and forth to India etc. Supercargo JD of the Medway (and possibly later ships) seems to be in and out of India - but further research by myself needs to be undertaken.
Also, Supercargo JD of the Medway is variously listed as John or James in the newspapers.
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My name is douglas parker. I have been researching James Davidson, clerk, of Sydney for years. I am finally getting all his information into order and context.
I suspect James had illegitimate children in Sydney with: Mary Ann McGuire (1834), Anne Kelly (1835 and 1838) and Esther Virtue (1839 and 1842). He probably also had children with Margaret ? (1833, 1834, 1840 and 1846), as he was the only James Davidson in Sydney 1830-36.
I am descended from Mary Ann McGuire's child Martha Davidson, born 11 Jun 1834 in Sydney.
Please get your information in chronological order and e-mail it to me and I will share my information, which is quality substance.
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Douglas Parker
*Moderator comment: personal e-mail address removed in accordance with RootsChat general practice to prevent others using it for spamming or similar abuses. Please use the personal message system to exchange personal information and e-mail addresses. New members need to make two or three posts to access this system. Thanks
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Good morning Douglas
I have transcriptions of births for both daughters of James davidson and Ann Kelly in 1835 and 1838 (this child born in Victoria but baptised in scots church, sydney 6 months after birth). Ms Kelly then partners up with James Donnithorne (2 further children in 1841 and 1845/46) before marrying Samuel Jones in 1847 (3 more children). The davidson girls end up back in Scotland in 1851 with their Davidson grandparents before heading back to Sydney in 1856 (stating their mother is Ann Jones in Sydney) on their immigration papers.
My James davidson is dead around 1852 as stated in his father's death cert and his daughter's immigration papers. Where James was after 1838 (birth of his 2nd daughter Mary Jane davidson) and where he died is a mystery to me. He is not the James davidson who died in India in 1852. I cannot find him in Scotland in 1851 census and I cannot find his death anywhere. I also cannot definitely find him arriving in oz prior to 1835 (birth of his first daughter Jessie davidson).
James is listed with occupation of "clerk" on baptisms of his 2 daughters with Ann Kelly although his daughter, Jessie davidson upgraded his to a deceased solicitor on her marriage cert in 1856. The only james davidson with a "clerk" like occupation in sydney in the 1830's and 1840's is a bloke working for Hughes and Hosking. This bloke lived in Castlereagh street for at least some of this period and was still in sydney in 1846 ... Then just drops off the radar.
I have my James baptism record in Scotland in 1800 so know his parents' names (further confirmed with sighting of his daughters back in Scotland in 1851, one of them living with his parents, the other working as a servant around the corner - both girls have birthplace as sydney, NSW down on the census).
When I wrote the original post I started spreadsheeting all possible sightings of a James davidson in sydney and Victoria and traced many backwards and forwards and connecting some suspects together only to determine who WAS NOT my James Davidson .... But not determining who WAS my James Davidson. I now suspect my James might have got to Sydney via Tasmania but this is based on my gut and completely inconclusive evidence.
I would love to share information but I think you will have to make 2 more posts before I can PM you.
Cocksie
Ps my original post is a year or two ago and, without scrolling back through it, I can't remember if I give my connection to James. I descend from the eldest daughter of James Davidson and Ann Kelly - Jessie Davidson born 1835, Baptised Sydney (or at least the baptism was transmitted to Rev William Cowper in Sydney as required at that time ... As it appears in his register ..... In 1838 Mary Jane's baptism was in the scots church - which is interesting).
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Good Morning Cocksie,
Thank you for your mail. So we are cousins. Wow, I never thought I would find any of Martha's relatives in Australia.
Below is the first page of my research. I suspect the 1851 death in Calcutta is our James Davidson.
Do you have his probate?
The Feb 1882 death notice (below) of son James confirms all the children have same father, except for my Martha.
JAMES DAVISON (DAVIDSON) Born ca 1800-10. Clerk in Sydney 1832-45+ Born ca 1800-1810.
Marriages in Sydney: James had illegitimate children with Mary Ann McGuire (1834), Anne Kelly (1835 and 1838) and Esther Virtue (1839 and 1842). He probably also had children with Margaret ? (1833, 1834, 1840 and 1846), as he was the only James Davidson in Sydney 1830-36.
Died by February 1882 and "of Sydney" (son James death notice). Thorough research shows James did not die in New South Wales.
CHILDREN
MARTHA DAVIDSON Born at Sydney, NSW: 11 June 1834. Christened at Sydney St Phillips. Martha daughter of James & Mary Ann Davison. James' occupation: clerk. Church of England. Martha was illegitimate. Her mother was Mary Ann McGuire.
JESSIE DAVIDSON Born 13 Mar 1835 in Sydney. Father James Davidson (clerk), now at Geelong (for a short time). Mother Anne Kelly. Baptized 10 Apr 1835 at St Phillips/ St Andrew’s, Sydney. (SAG 91). Died at 15 Bligh Street, Sydney: 6 Jan 1903, Jessie Cocks. Widow, aged 67. Father James Davidson, general merchant. Mother Jessie Jones. Buried at Waverley, Church of England, 7 January 1903. Married at Sydney: aged 22 to John Cocks. Children: John W, 39; Mary J (Shalvey) 36, Jessie A (James) 33; Thomas E 31, Keturah L (Walsh) 29, George W 26, May E 23, living; 4 males deceased.
MARY JANE DAVIDSON Born 1838 in Sydney. Parents James & Ann Davidson. Married at Tambaroora, NSW: aged 20 to Samuel Duncan Wood. Died at "Cooberry" Wood Street, Randwick: 12 March 1912, Mary Jane Wood. Aged 74 years 11 months (born April 1837?). Father James Davidson, occupation unknown. Mother Ann Jones. Children: Frank 51, George 48, Frederick 42, Edith P 39, Emily 35, 1 female deceased.
JAMES DAVIDSON born as JAMES DAVISON VIRTUE. Born 1839. Mother Esther Virtue. Christened at Sydney Scots Church or St Andrews Church: 18 February 1839. The father James Davidson is not mentioned. Illegitimate birth. Merchant Navy seaman 1853-57.
Married Mary Jane Peperr/Piper/Pyper.
Died at Port Victoria, Mahe Island, Seychelles: 2 January 1882, James Davidson, aged 43 (born 1838-39?) . Government servant. Father James Davidson. Mother Esther Virtice. Wife Mary Jane Piper/ Pyper.
DAVIDSON -January 2, at his residence, Mahe Seychelles, Mauritius, James, the dearly beloved husband of M. J. Davidson, brother of Mrs. Cocks, Castlereagh-street; Mrs S D Wood, Bathurst; and George Davidson, Honolulu; also the eldest son of the late James Davidson, of Sydney, leaving an affectionate wife, family, and relatives to mourn their loss; deeply regretted by all who know him.
Sydney Morning Herald 27 Feb 1882.
Children born in the Seychelles: Dora Winnifred, 4 Sept 1882, Port Victoria; Florence Mary, 11 October 1872, Port Victoria; Mahel Grace, 21 Sept 1875, Port Victoria; Sydney James, 26 August 1870, Victoria.
GEORGE WISEMAN DAVIDSON Born 26 September 1842, Sydney NSW. Christened at St James, Sydney :15 October 1842. Parents James & Esther Davidson.
George Davidson. Of Honolulu in 1882 (in his brother James' death notice).
Children with Margaret in Sydney: Ellen Davidson, 1833 and 1834; Jessy Davidson, 1840 and Margaret Davidson, 1846.
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Cocksie can you get on the chat line sometime? Perhaps try sending me a time for the chat. I am new to this system. It would be great to talk to you. I am online quite a bit.
Douglas
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Oh my absolute goodness!
Am at work so can't fully respond but just wanted to say that this is absolutely truly amazing!
Now about to manipulate a "sickie" (albeit I am the boss) and race home!
I have "met" online descendants of James davidson and Ann Kelly who will be gobsmacked plus other descendants of Anne and her next partner james donnithorne who will also be very very interested.
I see you have pmmed me also - I can't tell you how thrilled I am.
Will very shortly be in touch
Jenny
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Jenny, send me a post and then get onto chat. I am delighted too. After two decades I had almost given up on finding James Davidson. ::)
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I have just got back to family research after a break and thought it would be good to post an update on this thread.
douglasp1950 is indeed an ancestor of James Davidson and had managed, through his extensive research, to put some vital clues together. The big clue was this one:
"DAVIDSON -January 2, at his residence, Mahe Seychelles, Mauritius, James, the dearly beloved husband of M. J. Davidson, brother of Mrs. Cocks, Castlereagh-street; Mrs S D Wood, Bathurst; and George Davidson, Honolulu; also the eldest son of the late James Davidson, of Sydney, leaving an affectionate wife, family, and relatives to mourn their loss; deeply regretted by all who know him.
Sydney Morning Herald 27 Feb 1882."
If anyone else is ever searching for the same James Davidson, here is what all the collated documents & data indicate about this man:
Baptised 15 Nov 1800 Laurenkirk, Kincardineshire, parents George Davidson & Isabell Croll
Arrives in Australia bet 1828-1833. He is not anywhere in earlier censuses/data in OZ. Most probable arrival in Sydney is in Jul 1829 per Ionia (from Hobart)
The mother of his first known child in Australia, Mary Ann McGuire, arrived in OZ in August 1832 on the Red Rover.
1834. James working for/in the counting house of Dawes, Gore & Co in Sydney.
1834. Jun birth of daughter Martha Davidson, bap Aug. Parents listed James & Mary Ann. James' occupation: clerk.
1835-36. James has deserted Mary Ann and daughter, Martha,and she is ferociously chasing James for money. In Oct 1836 The judge recommended that James had better make some compensation. Sometime after 1836 (but before 1849) both Mary Ann and her daughter, Martha, went back to Ireland. (Note: In Nov 1849 Martha Davidson arrives back in Sydney as an assisted immigrant/female orphan. Mother Mary Ann residing in Dublin. Father listed as James Davidson. Martha subsequently has a child with Thomas Spence and 8 children with Archibald Parker - all in NSW.
1835-1842. James living Castlereagh Street. Working at Hughes & Hosking (including Albion Mill), variously listed as a clerk, chief clerk, managing clerk, merchant, book keeper, accountant. He also purchases property at Portland both with John Hosking and by himself. Possibly purchased property in New Zealand as well
1835. Second daughter, Jessie Davidson born and baptised in March (Sydney). Mother is Ann(e) Kelly. Father listed James Davidson, clerk.
1838. Third daughter, Mary Jane Davidson born Apr and baptised in Sep (Sydney), by Rev J McGarvie. Parents listed as James Davidson and Ann Kelly. James' occupation: clerk. The abode "Sydney now Port Philip(Geelong)". Between 1838-1851 Jessie & Mary Jane were shipped back to live with their paternal grandparents in Scotland. Following death of both grandparents, both girls travelled back to Australia on the Commodore Perry, arriving May 1856 - father listed as dead and mother listed as Ann Jones, residing in Sydney. Jessie subsequently marries a John Cocks in 1857 and Mary Jane marries a Samuel Duncan Wood in 1860. Between 1840-1862 their mother, Ann Kelly, had been busy procreating with "judge" James Donnithorne - one son James Donnithorne (b. 1841, d. 1918) and one daughter Anna (b. 1845, d 1876 Tas). Then Ann Kelly marries a Samuel Jones in 1847 and has further children - William Jones (b. 1847 - d before 1860), Edmund Jones (b. 1850, d. 1875), Isabella Jones (b. 1854, d. 1862).
1839. First son, James Virtue Davidson baptised in Feb at Scots Church. Mother listed as Esther Virtue but no mention of father. James Virtue Davidson goes on to have four children in the Seychelles (mother listed as Mary Jane Piper) before he, himself dies in the Seychelles in 1882.
1842. Second son, George Wiseman Davidson, b Sep, bap Oct. Parents listed as James & Esther Davidson. George went back to Scotland - found in 1861 census living with his second cousin (long story but excellent detective work by douglasp1950), then moved to Hawaii and finally died 1907 Clifton Hill Victoria. Note: who Esther Virtue was, what happened to her etc is not yet known.
1843-1845. James Davidson continued to reside in Castlereagh street, at least until 1845. Working for Hughes and Hosking up until, at least 1843. Spends a fair bit of time in court as witness for court case (Bank of Australasia vs Hughes & Hosking)
Bef 1851. James travels to Calcutta India and dies there in April 1851. Scottish newspaper death notice in Jun 1851. His will mentions his two sons only.
So thank you one and all on this thread. All the clues posted helped with the "dot joining" and resulted in douglasp1950 and myself making contact.
cocksie
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Cocksie, This is great, it is great that this information is now at hand. Being the family historian for one of Mary Jane Davidson/Samuel Wood descendants (my mother inlaw) it is nice to have some answers after all this time. I will pass this on to the other Wood family members from our line
Cheers
Sue White
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Hi Sue
If you post two more times (ie next post just say "great" and post after "look forward to receiving your pm") I will be able to pm you and we can exchange email addresses.
Although, it just occurs to me that I might have seen your name before (2 years or so ago?) when a number of Ann Kelly/James Davidson/James Donnithorne descendents found eachother online?????
Jenny
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Great :D
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Looking forward to receiving your pm
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Jenny you might have seen my name associated with Pat Rayne. She and my husband are descendants from Mary Jane and Samuel. My mother inlaw's maiden name was Norma Wood and her grandfather was Mary Jane's son Fred.
;D
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I was delighted to find your information about James Davidson, my 3Xg grandfather through Mary Jane. I found the thread between muss and cocksie when I was searching for information on Ann Kelly and James Donnithorne. You have found out much more than I have so far. Sue White and I have been in contact. I'm related via Frank and George Wood sons of Mary Jane and Samuel Duncan Wood. (My grandparents were first cousins.)
Pat Rayne
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Hi Pat, hi Sue
It's the old "Ann kelly" descendants finding each other on the web again!
I'll dig out your email addresses from a couple of years ago when we corresponded. Yes, I have found out a fair bit more ..... Not so much about our elusive Ms Kelly but loads on James Davidson. So will pull the info together in some kind of coherent format and email it to you.
Jenny
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Great to be in contact again and what progress has been made! Amazing detective work, douglas1950! I vaguely remember viewing the will years ago of the James Davidson who died in Calcutta but ruled him out because he only mentioned his two sons. I am guilty of thinking that Ann was the only one who slept around and didn't think of James as having children with other women or of ignoring his daughters in his will!
I can guess why there might have been a distancing of Mary Jane from Jessie as the Woods were rather puritanical and could well have disapproved of Ann while Jessie stayed in close contact with her. (There is also the tyranny of distance with M.J. living at Bathurst.)
My grandmother (Mary Ruth Wood) made sure I knew that we were related to the Cocks family but there was no mention of the half brothers and sisters who were offspring of J.D. and A.K.
Pat