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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: jbj63 on Sunday 13 November 11 15:56 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I'm new here and really need some help to find information on my grandfather.
My Mother and Sister tried to find his birth certificate some years ago but came up blank. They paid the records office to do a search and they found nothing.
His name was Henry Simmons (no middle initial as far as we know) His birthday was 16th June but we are unsure of the year but believe it to be 1887-1889. He died on 14th March 1955 and his age as stated on the birth certificate was 66.
All my grandfathers side of the family come from the East End of London.
The problem is made worse by the fact that I can't find any records for his mother either. I do know that when she died her name was Florence Henrietta Hammond and she died on 10th July 1940 in Bromley by Bow. She married her last husband Edward Hammond in 1928. When she married him her surname was Simmons, but I have been unable to find any record of her marrying anybody called Simmons.
On my nan and granddads marriage certificate his father is named as Albert Alfred Simmons and his occupation was private - so I assume he was in the army.
Henry also had two brothers that we know of. William Simmons and Thomas Owen. My aunt gave me this information as she knew both of them and they lived nearby in Bethnal Green when she was a child.
Also my Granddad was in the army in WW1. I have his regiment numbers, but have been unable to find him. I am assuming the records were lost in WW2.
Any help would be appreciated. I have done more research and think I may have found a census record for them, but can't be sure if I have the right family. I don't want to go too far down the wrong path.
If anyone is willing/or able to help I can give details of the census and regiment numbers etc.
Thanks in advance
Julie
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Hi,
Is it possible that Henry's father was Alfred James Simmons. I found this baptism record.
Albert Alfred Simmons baptised on 04/11/1895, Limehouse St Luke. Born 18/12/1892
Parents Alfred James (carman) & Florence Henrietta. Address was 67 Coutts Road.
1901 census has the family living at 6 Park Road, Mile End old Town (RG13/337/38/68).
Sharon
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The same couple baptised George Alexander Simmons on 26/03/1900 at St Luke Limehouse. Born 30/06/1898.
Father Albert James (packer) & Florence. Address 6 Park Road.
Sharon
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Hello Julie and Welcome to Rootschat.
Can you tell us who and when did Henry marry- what are the details on the cert- his job,fathers name and profession and address.
Also who were the witnesses.
You say Henry served in WW1 in what regiment and what was his number.
And lastly you mention a brother being Thomas Owen,is Owen his surname or his middle name? When/where did his brothers die?
Carol
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First of all thank you for your quick responses.
Henry married Annie Elizabeth Wraight on 13th April 1918. His father's name is listed as Albert Alfred Simmons and he was listed as a private. Frederick Wraight is Annie's father and he was a farm worker. Their wedding took place in Faversham, Kent which is where Annie was from. The witnesses were Alfred John Parker and Emily J Parker.
I have the same census records and feel that it must be the right family, but I didn't know about George as I think he died at 2 years old. A brother is listed as Albert Alfred and nobody in the family has heard of him either so I don't know if he died in the war or even if he served in WW1.
I don't think that my grandfather originally had the surname of Simmons as we believe that he was born when Florence was in service. (Sorry - don't know where) We believe that the master of the house may have been the actual father and Henry may have been registered under Florence's maiden/previous name, but we have no idea what that was.
On the 1911 census it is stated that the marriage (between Alfred James Simmons and Florence) was 24 years previously. I can't find any record of it.
Thomas Owen was his brother and Owen was his surname. I think he must have been the eldest. I don't know how many times Florence might have been married either or why he has a different surname.
Henry Simmons 2nd Scottish rifles 9772
and Royal Flying Corps G/26977
If you need any more info please let me know. The baptism records are interesting, I hadn't found those. The main areas are Bethnal Green, Poplar, Stepney, St. George in the East, St. Lukes and St. Pancras.
Thank you both so much for offering to help. If I missed any answers let me know!
Julie
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Hi,
Is it possible that Henry's father was Alfred James Simmons. I found this baptism record.
Albert Alfred Simmons baptised on 04/11/1895, Limehouse St Luke. Born 18/12/1892
Parents Alfred James (carman) & Florence Henrietta. Address was 67 Coutts Road.
1901 census has the family living at 6 Park Road, Mile End old Town (RG13/337/38/68).
Sharon
If you don't mind my asking, where did you find the baptism records? This is very interesting information.
Many thanks
Julie
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Hi Julie,
The baptism records I found are on An....try (LMA London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906).
Sharon
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Hi Sharon
Thanks for that. I have also found William James Simmons birth 1895 Mile End Old Town. Unfortunately it gets me no closer to Henry Simmons!
Julie
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I have tried looking for Thomas Owen with Florence in the census' but have not had any luck yet.
Sharon
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So have I Sharon,and have also drawn a blank :(
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Hi
I don't want to make things more difficult, but I have just been rechecking all my mum's notes and she had written down David Owen not Thomas when she was doing her research. I have asked her about it but she can't remember where she got David from.
Julie
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Hi Sharon
Thanks for that. I have also found William James Simmons birth 1895 Mile End Old Town. Unfortunately it gets me no closer to Henry Simmons!
Julie
Perhaps if you get his birth certificate it would give his mothers maiden name. If Albert was in the Army he could have married abroad
Rosie
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This could be Albert in 1891
52 Southampton St, Clerkenwell RG12/227 f55 p33
Joseph Simmons Wid. age 59 bn Aston Abbots, Buckinghamshire
Albert J. Son Single age 29 occ Dyer bn St Luke, London
William C, Son Single age 18 occ Carman bn St Luke London
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I wonder if it is Florence Arminger :-\
1891
RG12/285 f66 p9
Florence Arminger Head Widow age (Could be 32 line drawn through it) bn St Pancras
Minnie Arminger sister in law single bn Old Ford
David Son age 11 bn Hoxton
Henry Son age 2 bn St George in the East
Eleanor age 5 Niece
Bessie age 1 Niece
I don't believe she was married as there is a likely candidate in 1881 with that name who is single
RG11/ 239 f 40 p 21
Florence H. Arminger age 22 Domestic Servant Cook bn St Pancras
Births December qtr 1858
Florence Henrietta Arminger Pancras 1b 131
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Davids birth registration
Births September qtr 1879
Arminger David Owen Shoreditch 1c 97
;D ;D ;D
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I too have been going over the Florence Henrietta Arminger theory & I think you are right Rosie.
Sharon
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Davids birth registration
Births September qtr 1879
Arminger David Owen Shoreditch 1c 97
;D ;D ;D
Oh well done Rosie ;D
I do think you're on to something here.
Carol
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David Owen Arminger christening
St Chad, Haggerston
13th June 1880
Mother Florence (No fathers name)
occupation Servant
Address 29 Gossall Street
In 1881 he is with his grandmother RG11 / 403 f38 p24
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But whilst we can find David- why wasn't Henry registered?
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Eleanor Arminger who is 5 in 1891 was also born to a single mum-so Minnie is probably Florence's sister not sister in law(unless that's a step sister)
Baptised as Eleanor Florence on 3rd August 1894 at St Stephens Islington.
With a DOB of 16th Jan 1886 to single mum Eleanor Janette Arminger and Arthur Roberts.
He was a Policeman ;D ;D ;D
Carol
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I wonder if it is Florence Arminger :-\
1891
RG12/285 f66 p9
Florence Arminger Head Widow age (Could be 32 line drawn through it) bn St Pancras
Someone has a public tree on Ancestry featuring Florence(who was baptised as Flora ;D) She has amended the age of Florence in 1891 to read 32.
Carol
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She is christened as Flora Henrietta born 20th November 1858 and christened 25th June 1865 at St Mary Islington - a bulk christening
Will post details if jbj63 wants them Parents Henry Turner Arminger and Emma
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She is christened as Flora Henrietta born 20th November 1858 and christened 25th June 1865 at St Mary Islington - a bulk christening
Will post details if jbj63 wants them Parents Henry Turner Arminger and Emma
Emma was nee Headland and that's what the tree is called- the lady has no more info on any of the Arminger side.
Florence H Hammond died in 1940 aged 82,making her DOB correct at around 1858-9.
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Minnie Miriam Davis Arminger married Charles Jasper Redhalls in Bethnal Green on 25th Dec 1891 sister Florence Henrietta Arminger was a witness.
Carol
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Minnie Miriam Davis Arminger married Charles Jasper Redhalls in Bethnal Green on 25th Dec 1891 sister Florence Henrietta Arminger was a witness.
Carol
So not calling herself anything else then :)
I always forget to look at Ancestry trees Carol. Have just looked and I see someone has her married to Albert James Simmons, they have however got her date of birth as 20th November 1835. ::)
I am suprised that Henrys birth is not registered, I can't even see a Henry with a mother Flora/Florence that fits.
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Have you girls noticed that in 1901 when the Simmons family were at 6 Park Road Mile End,that an Edward Hammond was living next door ;D
Is that who she married in 1928 I wonder?
He was a carpenter and born in 1851 ish.
Carol
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It wouldn't suprise me Carol. :)
It looks as though Minnie could have remarried
December qtr 1921
Major Edward A (spouse Redhalls)
Redhalls Minnie M (Spouse Major)
Bethnal G. 1c 359
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Have you girls noticed that in 1901 when the Simmons family were at 6 Park Road Mile End,that an Edward Hammond was living next door ;D
Is that who she married in 1928 I wonder?
He was a carpenter and born in 1851 ish.
Carol
Well done - Edward Hammond was indeed a carpenter so I think it must be the right person.
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She is christened as Flora Henrietta born 20th November 1858 and christened 25th June 1865 at St Mary Islington - a bulk christening
Will post details if jbj63 wants them Parents Henry Turner Arminger and Emma
I would love the details if you have them.
I see her fathers name is Henry Turner Arminger. I've had a look and can't see any Armingers that would have been born about the right time.
Any ideas?
This is looking promising. I think David Arminger must have just decided to use his middle name as his surname. Did people do that in Victorian times?
Thanks
Julie
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I bet you were quite surprised to log on today Julie and find all this info ;D
Have you managed to make sense of it?
IN 1861 they were at 100 Bayham ? St Pancras
Henry Arminger 33 head ,a dyer , b Reading
Emma Arminger wife 34 b Middlesex (the writing is atrocious!)
Elizabeth dau 6 scholar b St Pancras
Emma dau 5 " "
Flora H dau 2 b "
Elenor dau 9 mths b "
RG9/116 folio 27 page 47.
Henry Arminger seems to die quite young.
March 1/4 of 1877 aged 48 in Bethnal Green
Ref 1c page 160
Carol
Amended 15/11 to show Henry as head of house ;)
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She is christened as Flora Henrietta born 20th November 1858 and christened 25th June 1865 at St Mary Islington - a bulk christening
Will post details if jbj63 wants them Parents Henry Turner Arminger and Emma
I would love the details if you have them.
25th June 1865 St Mary, Islington.
Elizabeth Emily born 27th May 1853
Emma Louisa born 21st January 1856
Flora Henrietta born 20th November 1858
Eleanor Janet born 25th July 1860
daughters of Henry Turner and Emma Eliza Arminger - Residence Alma Terrace, fathers occupation Dyer
St Chad, Haggerston 14th January 1874
Miriam Davis dtr of Henry and Emma Eliza Arminger -resident 4 Laburnim Terrace- occupation Dyer
Rosie
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I bet you were quite surprised to log on today Julie and find all this info ;D
Have you managed to make sense of it?
IN 1861 they were at 100 Bayham ? St Pancras
David Arminger 33 head ,a dyer , b Reading
Emma Arminger wife 34 b Middlesex (the writing is atrocious!)
Elizabeth dau 6 scholar b St Pancras
Emma dau 5 " "
Flora H dau 2 b "
Elenor dau 9 mths b "
RG9/116 folio 27 page 47.
.Carol
Carol,
I think her place of birth says Clerkingwell (Clerkenwell) :) Henry is still head of House. ;)
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Carol,
I think her place of birth says Clerkingwell (Clerkenwell) :) Henry is still head of House. ;)
I could see the well bit but couldn't work out what the rest said.Thanks.
I "knew" that Henry was the head,goodness only knows why I typed David ;D 8)
Must have been way past my bedtime ::)
Have amended it now!
Carol
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Hi All
All this info is great!
We seem to have traced all my granddads brothers - but we still can't trace him!
I am beginning to think that maybe he was found under a gooseberry bush! ;D
My granddad wasn't born Henry Simmons and he wasn't born Henry Arminger either. I did find one Henry Arminger but it would appear that he died at birth or soon after.
I am rather surprised that all the other children appear to have been baptised and he wasn't. First of all I thought maybe he hadn't been baptised because he was illegitimate, but on looking closer it appears that they all were - as she never married!
Why is it that all records for him don't seem to exist? He served in WW1 - no records appear to have survived. No birth certificate - he never had one. No baptism.
Am I really here typing this!! Do I really exist! ;D
Thanks for all your help.
Julie
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Florence's father on the baptism record was named as Henry Turner Arminger. I've looked for him in the birth records and I can't find him either!
What is it about Henrys'! ;D ;D
Julie
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Florence's father on the baptism record was named as Henry Turner Arminger. I've looked for him in the birth records and I can't find him either!
What is it about Henrys'! ;D ;D
Julie
Perhaps your family have a Henry complex ;D ;D ;D
The Henry Turner Arminger would have been born c 1828,so before BMD records existed. If he had been baptised then you might find his baptism if you knew which church he'd been baptised at!
Be aware that people seemed to add and drop middle names like hot potatoes as and when it suited them,but of course it's possible that his mum was a Turner.
Carol
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As we now know that Florence(Flora)'s dad was called Henry,that will probably account why she called her son Henry,although as yet we have no idea what his birth surname was-maybe they registered it under the fathers surname?
Henry Arminger married Emma Headland at St Pancras Parish Chapel on 27th August 1853.
They were both of full age,he a bachelor and she a spinster,he was a dyer.
His father was Robert Arminger also a dyer and hers Thomas headland decd.
Witnesses Thomas Hughes Headland and Mary something? Headland.
Carol
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Hi All
I have found a Henry Arminger on the 1891 census. He was born in St. George in the East which ties up with the 1901 census for Florence and Albert James Simmons although his surname on there is Simmons. He was listed as 2 years old which would also fit the dates I have.
So I believe that he may have been born with his father's surname as has been suggested, but on census records he was Arminger and later Simmons.
What a tangle!
My Great Grandmother didn't believe in making things easy! ;D
Julie
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I wonder if it is Florence Arminger :-\
1891
RG12/285 f66 p9
Florence Arminger Head Widow age (Could be 32 line drawn through it) bn St Pancras
Minnie Arminger sister in law single bn Old Ford
David Son age 11 bn Hoxton
Henry Son age 2 bn St George in the East
Eleanor age 5 Niece
Bessie age 1 Niece
I don't believe she was married as there is a likely candidate in 1881 with that name who is single
RG11/ 239 f 40 p 21
Florence H. Arminger age 22 Domestic Servant Cook bn St Pancras
Births December qtr 1858
Florence Henrietta Arminger Pancras 1b 131
1891 was found for you yesterday by Rosie ;D ;D ;D
Carol
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Sorry - my apologies! I've got so much data going round in my head! :-[
What on earth was Henry's surname? He would be the most difficult one wouldn't he! ;D
Julie
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Hi Julie
Clutching at straws ;D Where did you get the information on Henry's army career?
Rosie
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Hi Rosie
My Mum told me her dad served in the WW1 because she saw photos of him in uniform.
He also received a 1914 Star medal engraved with his regiment details etc.
I found confirmation of the medal on Ancestry, but no other records so I am guessing they were destroyed in the bombings in London during WW2.
Every way I turn seems to be a dead end. I felt sure that with his regiment number etc, I'd be able to find next of kin details, exact date of birth etc.
I spoke to my Mum this morning and asked her if she knew if her dad served in the army before or after the WW1 but she didn't know. She wasn't born until 1935, and he was a little old to serve in WW2.
My next task after unravelling this mystery is to start on my dad's side of the family. His house was bombed in 1940 and his mother was killed and he was injured. The family name was Brown and he tells me he had a brother called John! ;D I nearly gave up before starting!! John Brown! - well I'm sure there won't be many of those - such an unusual name!! ;D
Thanks for sticking with this and for your patience.
Julie
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Hi Rosie
My next task after unravelling this mystery is to start on my dad's side of the family. His house was bombed in 1940 and his mother was killed and he was injured. The family name was Brown and he tells me he had a brother called John! ;D I nearly gave up before starting!! John Brown! - well I'm sure there won't be many of those - such an unusual name!! ;D
Thanks for sticking with this and for your patience.
Julie
There were 189 civilian's with the surname Brown who died on the war in 1940.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0h4q/
What was her name and where did they live?
All is not lost ................yet ;D
Carol
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Hi Rosie
My next task after unravelling this mystery is to start on my dad's side of the family. His house was bombed in 1940 and his mother was killed and he was injured. The family name was Brown and he tells me he had a brother called John! ;D I nearly gave up before starting!! John Brown! - well I'm sure there won't be many of those - such an unusual name!! ;D
Thanks for sticking with this and for your patience.
Julie
There were 189 civilian's with the surname Brown who died on the war in 1940.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0h4q/
What was her name and where did they live?
All is not lost ................yet ;D
Carol
Her name was Sarah Ann Brown (nee Cooper). I don't know exactly where they lived but it was around Twickenham, Middlesex. Her death was registered at Brentford, Middlesex in December quarter 1940.
My dad said that both his parents died in the house, but there is no records of his dad dying at the same time. I believe he was serving in WW2 at the time and died in action. My dad said his dad was called Bert William Arthur, but having checked I think he was Bertie Robert Brown as I found a record of him marrying Sarah in 1923. I found a birth record for Bertie Robert Brown, but I think later he just called himself Bert.
My dad had a sister Violet Cooper born in 1922. I have spoken to her daughter and she hasn't any further info about that side of the family as her mother rarely spoke of it. She did, however say that she lived with her nan and that she had a brother John. My dad confirmed that he had a brother and that he was in the army and travelled overseas and he thinks he married a Dutch girl. Unfortunately they lost touch. I have no idea if he is still alive. He would have been older than my dad who was born in 1928.
My dad's name is Alfred Henry Brown D.O.B. 15.3.1928.
Sorry if it is a bit muddly. My dad's recollection of that time is hazy. He was only 12 when his mum died and I don't think he really wants to remember it.
Thanks for your interest. This could be a nightmare! ;D
Julie
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Carol
Thanks for the link. I found my grandmother on there! I now have her date of death.
Julie ;D
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Julie,
Glad you've found your gran ;D
Using http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/ you should be able to put in Brown as the surname and Cooper as the mothers maiden name and check any births,including your dad.
Rootschat don't allow us to type out any name of those who might still be living.But it's easy enough to search for yourself ;)
Carol
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Julie,
Glad you've found your gran ;D
Using http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/ you should be able to put in Brown as the surname and Cooper as the mothers maiden name and check any births,including your dad.
Rootschat don't allow us to type out any name of those who might still be living.But it's easy enough to search for yourself ;)
Carol
Thanks Carol
I have some leads to follow up. I'm wondereing if his brothers name is something different. It is just a hunch, but my dad is not known by his birth name and nobody in the family other than immediate family knows his real name. The name he is known as is completely different and bears no relation to his birth name.
Maybe his brother is the same?
I'll let you know if I find out anything.
Julie
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Going back to my grandfather Henry Simmons. I have some of his army records and can now confirm that his dob is 16/6/1889.
On his sign up forms his address ties up with the address on the 1901 census.
He quotes his next of kin as:
Father: James
Mother: Florence
Older Brother: James
Younger Brother: Albert
Younger Brother: William
His father's name was Albert James so that makes sense. However, I don't know where a brother called James comes in. I knew of a brother called William as my aunt remembers her uncle Bill! We knew nothing about Albert or his younger brother George who died as an infant.
My aunt told me about her uncle Thomas Owen who was the father of her cousin Maud Owen. My mum seems to have the name David Owen. We seem to have tied up the David Owen Arminger theory so who is James?
On the form he states that William and Albert were living with their parents and James was in Stepney.
Do you think this is yet another brother?
Any ideas on this one?
Julie
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In short- Yep,he sure sounds like another brother :D
What date was this when he said James was in Stepney,can we find him on a census........wonder what HIS surname was !
Carol
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In short- Yep,he sure sounds like another brother :D
What date was this when he said James was in Stepney,can we find him on a census........wonder what HIS surname was !
Carol
Carol
The date was September 1906.
It's anybodies guess what his surname was. Probably whatever he wanted it to be on any particular day! ;D
Julie
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Carol
The date was September 1906.
It's anybodies guess what his surname was. Probably whatever he wanted it to be on any particular day! ;D
Julie
Oh da*n that couldn't be a worse date,it's half way between 1901 and 1911,plenty of time for him to have moved a dozen times between censues.
Just going to look at the 1881 census where Rosie found David with his grandparents to se if there's any clues there.
I notice that he doesn't mention David in his service record,maaybe he didn't know about him till later in life ;D
Carol
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Well......As the only person who has any recollection of those days remembers Thomas Owen and not David Owen - he could have been called James as a nickname!! ;D
rosie has found the 1911 census for David Owen and his wife and family so I think it must be David.
Julie
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Carol,
I think this is Davids marriage
Marriages Mar 1901
HIDDEN Arthur Mile End 1c 430
Morgan Florence Elizabeth Mile End 1c 430
Owen David Mile End 1c 430
SMITH Alice Mary M Mile End 1c 430
On the 1901 which I am trying to find again he is married and bn St Gge in East.
On the 1911 index I think I have found the same people with a possible 5 year old daughter called Florence Henrietta Owen.
They are in Mile End Old Town district. -- Playing with the index Florence H is bn Stepney.
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Good spot again Rosie,very likely to name his first daughter after his mum I would think.
That's true about him being nicknamed James.My son has a friend called James whom they nickname Fred ::)
His marr cert is included in the London marriages 1754-21 and he down as David Owin.With a dad of the same name ::)
Carol
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Marriage at St Paul's Bow Common on 10th Feb 1901 of..
David Owen 22, bach. carman, of 18 Joseph Street,dad David Owen a clerk.
Alice Mary Maria Smith 24 Spin. same address dad Alfred Henry Smith gate keeper.
Witnesses Alfred Henry Smith and Emily Elizabeth Hammond.
Carol
Emily is dau of Edward Hammond and lived next door to the Simmons's in 1901.
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Marriage at St Paul's Bow Common on 10th Feb 1901 of..
David Owen 22, bach. carman, of 18 Joseph Street,dad David Owen a clerk.
Alice Mary Maria Smith 24 Spin. same address dad Alfred Henry Smith gate keeper.
Witnesses Alfred Henry Smith and Emily Elizabeth Hammond.
Carol
Emily is dau of Edward Hammond and lived next door to the Simmons's in 1901.
The plot thickens! So it would appear that David Owen did have a father after all. Maybe he was David Owen Arminger because he was given both parent's surnames and Owen was never meant to be a middle name.
The Hammond link is interesting too!
You really are stars!
thanks so much for all your help.
Julie
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Well done Carol, I didn't spot that marriage. :)
Julie has found the death for Davids wife in Barnstaple reg district in 1937 - There are some marriages that would fit as well there but won't post details on here. No sign of Davids death there though.
Just because David puts a fathers name on his marriage certificate it does not mean that is his father. It is quite common for illegitimate children to make up their fathers name and occupation.
The Hammond link is excellent ;D
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Well done Carol, I didn't spot that marriage. :)
Julie has found the death for Davids wife in Barnstaple reg district in 1937 - There are some marriages that would fit as well there but won't post details on here. No sign of Davids death there though.
Just because David puts a fathers name on his marriage certificate it does not mean that is his father. It is quite common for illegitimate children to make up their fathers name and occupation.
The Hammond link is excellent ;D
I agree with Rosie,Julie. David might not have been told who his father was but made him up to look respectable to the new inlaws .
By the way Emily Hammond is only 14 on the 1901 census,so a young witness,but she signed her name-they all did.
Stanmapstone will tell you that they had to be aware of what they were witnessing but other then that there was no age limit.
Carol
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Hi,
It seems to me that they made a lot of things up!! ;D
I only know some of what I know because we twisted my aunt's arm behind her back!! (only joking obviously!) ;D
She didn't want to give away the deep dark secrets of the family. The fact that my grandfather was born out of wedlock brought shame on the family. It would appear though that none of the children were born 'in wedlock' as Albert and Florence didn't appeared to get married!
The Hammond's living next door is very interesting.
Julie
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Hi
I've been scratching my head over this. I have so much info going around in my head! :)
Do you think it is possible that my grandfather Henry Simmons could have been born in the workhouse? We can't seem to find him anywhere else.
How were workhouse births recorded? Is there a list of workhouse residents and births available? Could he have been recorded without a name? Is that possible?
I have no idea if my gt grandmother was ever in the workhouse, but anything is possible.
Any ideas?
Julie
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Hi Julie
Workhouse births are registered just the same as any other. My gt grandfather was born in one, his mother also had him christened at the local church.
Rosie ;D
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What is the significance of having the children christened? Religious reasons obviously! But I don't believe that my family were any more religious then than they are now.
Was it for some financial reason? Or was there some other reason?
Does anybody know the answer?
Julie
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Hi all
I have finally got the marriage certificate for the marriage between Florence Simmons and Edward Hammond. Florence lists her father as Henry ARMINGER, so we have been following the right person - thank goodness!
I have also found out that Henry (my grandfather) was born on 16.6.1888 as I have his school registration records and it is quoted on them. I just wish that I knew what surname was on his birth certificate! I'm wondering whether he was even called Henry on his birth cert, in which case we will never know for sure what his birth name was.
Any ideas!
jbj63
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Hi Julie :)
So glad we were on the right track.
For anyone looking the School records give his father as James Simmons and the address 6 Eleanor Street as as 5th November 1894 and on 17th June 1895 as 67 Coutts Road - School High Street, Bow
and as a reminder in 1891 Henry was being called Arminger ::)
RG12/285 f66 p9
Florence Arminger Head Widow age (Could be 32 line drawn through it) bn St Pancras
Minnie Arminger sister in law single bn Old Ford
David Son age 11 bn Hoxton
Henry Son age 2 bn St George in the East
Eleanor age 5 Niece
Bessie age 1 Niece
Rosie
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I wonder if it is Florence Arminger :-\
1891
RG12/285 f66 p9
Florence Arminger Head Widow age (Could be 32 line drawn through it) bn St Pancras
Minnie Arminger sister in law single bn Old Ford
David Son age 11 bn Hoxton
Henry Son age 2 bn St George in the East
Eleanor age 5 Niece
Bessie age 1 Niece
I don't believe she was married as there is a likely candidate in 1881 with that name who is single
RG11/ 239 f 40 p 21
Florence H. Arminger age 22 Domestic Servant Cook bn St Pancras
Births December qtr 1858
Florence Henrietta Arminger Pancras 1b 131
Well done Rosie you found this back in Nov 2011 ;D
But now we have confirmation to say it's correct.
I'm having to read back through the thread as I'd forgotten all we'd found...or not!
Carol
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Hello All
I'm still looking for Henry. Any ideas? Is there anything else to try?
I have found some ancestors of two of Henry's brothers recently, but, unfortunately, they can't help.
As per my previous post, I know for definite that Florence Henrietta Arminger was Henry's mother. It is quite a difficult family to trace as Florence's sisters all seem to have had children out of wedlock and so did Florence's mother. It would also appear that Florence's younger sister Miriam Daviss Arminger (Known as Minnie) was in fact the daughter of elder sister Elizabeth. All very complicated!
Any advice on the next step would be appreciated.
jbj63
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Hello All
I'm still looking for Henry. Any ideas? Is there anything else to try?
jbj63
I have been following this post with interest and would like to offer a suggestion.
The findings so far by the Roots Chat Members have been impressive and have
helped to narrow down the birth of your Henry Simmons. Unfortunately he is hiding
somewhere in the records and is proving difficult to locate. It is possible his birth
was registered but not as Henry. Often a child was registered without a first name
and entered into the registers with the first name as either Male or Female.
Henry's date of birth is stated as 16th June 1889. So if his birth was registered
correctly it would have been in the June or September quarters 1889.
There are :
about 160 entries for Male (all surnames) registered London, June September Q 1889 and
about 160 entries for Male (all surnames) registered Middlesex, June September Q 1889
I didn't count them exactly because they are in a list so it is my best estimate.
As you are not 100% sure of his surname it might be worth looking at the entries to see if
anything stand out and looks promising with your knowledge of the family.
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I also noticed an entry that might be of interest.
Births Sep 1889
SIMMONS, Jenny
St. Geo. East (Registration District)
1c 340
I have looked at the image of the General Register Office (GRO) index and it is Jenny.
If the handwriting of the GRO certificate was very bad is it possible that Henry has been
mis-transcribed as Jenny. The H for a J and the r for an n.
J e n n y
H e n r y
Is it possible that the writing in the quarterly entry from the registrar submitted to the GRO
was so bad that it was entered into the indexes incorrectly?
I have tried to disprove this by looking at census entries but have not been able to do so.
Maybe someone else can disprove this?
If this is to be proved/disproved a certificate from the Local Register Office would be preferable.
Sorry not to have anything definate but maybe food for thought.
Regards, Dave.
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Sorry to say I think I have disproved or at least weakened the Jenny - Henry theory:
1901 census Jennie Simmons in St Botolph Aldgate age 12 born London
Father Angel Simmons.
In the 1891 census she is named as Jane but born St George in East age 1
Back to the drawing board !
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Hi everyone
I still haven't found Henry, but after an email from a family member who is related to Henry's brother William, I now have a possible new lead.
She said that she remembers the surname Evans from a conversation some 40 years ago. She doesn't know if it was definitely in relation to my grandfather, but feels it could be worth following up.
On top of this I am in possession of a Silver World War 1 badge given to me by my Mum. The number on the badge corresponds to a James Iviss. My Mum always believed it was her father Henry's, but that obviously isn't right. I'm wondering if this James Iviss could have been Henry's father. Bit of a long shot, I know, but you have to try everything.
I am having trouble tracing James Iviss and have come across many spellings including Ives, Eves, Ivies etc. So it is not so different from Evans.
Can anybody help with tracing more on James?
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You mention a WW1 badge,and say that the number on it refers to a James Iviss.
What other info is on the badge- the number for example ;D
Carol
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Hi Carol
The number on the badge is 323987 and refers to Sapper James Iviss. Regiment number: 233989. Unit: RQTD (Road and Quarry Troops detachment). Enlisted 1/2/1917 discharged: 20/11/1917 aged 49.
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Ah he says he's born in London c 1868 but living in Brighton.
I can't find him on any census though ::)
Carol
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Can you see his enlistment records? I can't find a birth that matches.
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Can you see his enlistment records? I can't find a birth that matches.
Yes they're on Find My Past.
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Do they give any next of kin or other details?
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Sorry don't have access to check for you but there is a
James IVISS on the 1929, 1930, 1931 & 1932 London, Electoral Registers
1832 - 1965 on Ancestry - perhaps there's other persons living in the same household
and a British Army WW1 Medal Rolls Index Card 1914 - 1920
I think the above is the same one that's on the NA site (see link below)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01aba/
there's also this death entry in Wandsworth on familysearch but he's born a little earlier :-\
James IVISS 1933 age 71 (born c 1862)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/QVHF-CFH6
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Do they give any next of kin or other details?
No sorry. He's 49,single ,a dock (also a road) labourer and gives an address in Brighton.97 Carlton Hill. His last employer was the London Brighton and Co coast railway,working at Newhaven Harbour.
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I know you are looking for a James IVISS and you may have already seen these entries but due to their unusual surname IVISS I thought I'd post anyway just in case there's a connection to James
Regimental & Service Records on FindMyPast
Edward IVISS born 1833 St Martins in the Fields London
details from family search https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V5CM-6S1
possible death in 1876 age 43 (1833) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/2J5J-K34
Edward IVISS born 1860 Charlton Woolwich Kent
details from family search https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V5CH-6BQ
and
Hannah IVISS 20 Jan / 10 Feb 1853 (Birth & Bap.) St Martin in the Fields
father Edwd. mother Hanh.
possible marriage
1 Nov 1852 St Anne Soho Westminster Edward IVIS to Hannah CLOGHER
1891c Lambeth - Hannah IVISS (Pauper) age 64 (1827) born Holbron
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/Q9KY-1MM
Hannah (Jnr.)married Thomas LEWIS 26 Nov 1877 St Martin in the Fields Westminster London details from familysearch
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Have you considered any of these birth entries from FreeBMD as a possibility for Henry?
SYMONS Male Jun 1888 Shoreditch 1c 101
SIAMONS Male Dec 1889 St.Geo.East 1c 342
SYMONS Male Dec 1889 St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 460
later birth entries
SIMMONS Male Sep 1890 Shoreditch 1c 56
SYMONS Henry Dec 1895 St. Geo. East 1c 357
Ah he says he's born in London c 1868 but living in Brighton.
I wonder if this might be James IVISS birth entry
James IVES Dec 1868 St. Giles 1b 532
Silver War Badge Roll 1914-1920 (source FindMyPast)
Jas. IVISS Sapper 233989
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ae0/