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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Scrabble on Thursday 10 November 11 08:42 GMT (UK)
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Is it (as I believe) the church register that has the original signature of marriage parties and the certificate is just a copy? I have both records for the second marriage .
If so could I please have opinions as to whether this is the second marriage of the same man? The signatures are 22 years apart.
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Looks like the same hand to me :)
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Perhaps I should explain my reticence.
Robert West Welch was the son of a Royal Navy commander who sailed with Nelson. He was baptised at Frindsbury Kent and then again with siblings at Greenwich. He married Susan Heseltine in 1840 but she died in 1856 in Poplar Middx leaving 2 children. The son seems to have gone to a charity school and the daughter brought up by the grandparents. No sign of Robert West Welch in any UK census after that.
Robert Welch surfaces in the 1861 census with my ancestor Elizabeth (Penrose/Richardson) nee Lowdell living in Poplar. No definite sighting of him before that. He says in the census that he was born in Hammersmith. (Robert West Welch's family seem to have moved around a lot but did live in Little Stanmore in 1841 census and a daughter Fanny was born in Hammersmith. Robert Welch and Elizabeth named their daughter Fanny.)
Sorry, I digress, what I am trying to say is that Robert West Welch came from a presumably wealthy family (he is described as a Gentleman on his daughter's marriage cert) but Elizabeth was illiterate, twice widowed with stepchildren in tow. Her father was a caulker with the royal navy.
Is this a likely alliance?
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Having read your last,I must say i am not up in the social side of these times, but I can understand your reticence.
However I must say that the handwriting on both certificates I think are exactly the same.
Sue
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Well they were both widowed and lived in the same street, seems a typical basis for marriage to me
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I think they were actually living in the same house as my great-grandma was born January 1861 and they were all together at 7 Richard Street in the 1861 census with Elizabeth recorded as "wife". However they didn't get married until August 1862. Perhaps she was his housekeeper and they ...um... became close!
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Looks like the same hand to me :)
Actually, looking at it in more detail, that same hand may have belonged to the Registrar or whoever wrote the entries in the register . . . much of the writing looks very similar on both forms. :-\
Sorry I can't be more helpful, but have you tried searching for an alternative history for 'your' Robert? If there is no likely alternative candidate, that would increase the likelihood of it being the same man
Mike
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Hi Mike
I've been searching for at least 5 years. The search was stalled at first because he said on the census he was born in Hammersmith and it took me a while to disprove that. When I eventually cast the net wider and discounted several others along the way I was left with Robert West Welch.
I would love it to be him because my tree is pretty average and his father, an illustrious naval commander, would spice it up no end. However it just seems so unlikely as the families are so different. My Robert Welch obviously did have some education as he was a clerk to a house agent in 1861 census. But he doesn't seem to have left a will and his widow seems to have ended up dying alone in the parish relief office at Dalston 5 years after his death so he can't have left her well provided for, yet his supposed father was a RN Commander with a string of medals including a gold one! I suppose it is possible that if he was Robert West Welch he fell apart after the death of his first wife and although picked up and dusted down by Elizabeth (who had already had 2 husbands die on her) he never recovered. Or maybe it was due to illness, he was paralysed for 3 years prior to his death in 1885.
I feel it needs more proof but don't know where to go next. Only thought of the signature thing this morning and they do look very alike, but writing styles were not very diverse in those days.
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With the same profession, and the same father's name & profession, on both certificates I'd say the odds are in favour of them being the same man. But I'm only too well aware of unusual coincidences :-\
If he was a mariner he may well have been absent during the census . . . have you searched for Susan alone or with family in 1851?
I don't know how these things were/are done but I fear both entries may be copies as the handwriting does look very similar overall
Mike.
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Mike
1851 census: Susan Welch lived at 3 Willis Rd, Bromley, Tower Hamlets, with children Robert 4 and Jane? 2 (presume this is Susan Celia (have birth cert). Susan is recorded as "wife of a mariner at sea".
1856 Sept Death registration of Susan Welch in Poplar.
1861 census: Celia aged 12 was living with her Grandparents Robert and Lucy Welch at 6 Orford St, Ipswich, Suffolk.
Robert was aged 11, a Scholar at St Annes Society School at Streatham (described as a charity educating children of gentlefolk who have fallen on hard times particularly armed forces, clergymen etc.)
1871 census: Celia was a Drapers Assistant living at 281 East India Road, Bromley.
Robert aged 23 was a Clerk lodging at 18 Morant Street, Poplar.
1878 Robert got married in N London, described his father as Robert West Welch, Gentleman.
1881 census: Celia was living with her brother Robert and his wife Annie at 10 Pennyfields, Poplar.
1891 Susan Cecilia got married in Islington.
The grandparents meanwhile lived in Ipswich until they died 1869 & 70.
Thank you for your interest, it is making me go through this again, maybe I've missed something.
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Hi, very interesting thread! Hope you don't mind my observations on the certificates?
1st cert - I believe both Robert West Welch's and Susan Heseltine's signatures are proper signatures, as are the two witnesses, Thomas Heseltine and Maria (?) Heseltine. Each signature looks to be by a different hand, and also seems different from the vicar's or whoever filled in the rest of the form.
2nd cert - I believe Robert Welch's signature is a proper signature and it does look very similar to the one on the first cert - 22 years is a big time difference and handwriting can change over that period due to lots of factors, ill health, bad eyesight, etc. In my (humble) opinion they could well be of the same person. Obviously Elizabeth Penrose's name is not a true signature as she has made her mark, and I think it's the curate's handwriting (compare the writing of the name Elizabeth on the form - it's almost identical). Of the two witnesses, whose surnames I can't really make out, Alfred's is I believe a true signature, and while again obviously Elizabeth just made her mark so cannot be a signature, it actually looks to me like Alfred's writing rather than the curate's (helpful to have the same first name to compare the different handwriting styles!) Alfred's writing seems much more flowery than the curate's writing, and is done with more of a flourish. Maybe he was her fiancee or something and wrote the name for her to make her mark against. (Just a theory!)
Hope this helps and that you discover whether the two Roberts are one and the same. I love a good conundrum!
Good luck.
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Thank you for contributing. The two records shown are both church records from the registers and as such should be original signatures I think. I have a cert for the second marriage but it all appears to be in the same hand and would logically be a copy of the church record.
I've decided to get Robert Welch senior's will if poss (he was in the Navy so surely must have one somewhere) in the hope that it names his children and, even better, grandchildren.
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Yes, they should be original signatures if they are church records, and that does appear to be the case in my opinion. That's a good idea trying to obtain his will, good luck with that!
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Hi
I read your post with interest as I am directly related to Commander Robert Welch RN through my maternal line. He was my 4 x great uncle, I have done quite a bit of work with the family and there is a good deal of confusion about his children and their descendants.
I will dig out my file on the family and see what I have which might help to clarify the situation.
Other members of Robert Welch's family varied in their occupations and prosperity, his brother Thomas (my line) was a Gunner, RN and although not an officer was comfortably off due to his share of prizes and permanent post on board ship.
Kind regards
Anida
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I am so pleased to hear from you - thank you. I am now stuck as to where to look next.
I found Robert West Welch's marriage, his wife's death and what happened to his son and daughter (son in a charity school and daughter brought up by the grandparents, both went on to marry and have children) but I was unable to find Robert himself any census unless he is "my" Robert Welch. It is quite possible that he went back to sea of course, or died, but I can't find that either.
I would be so grateful for anything you can suggest.
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Looks like the same hand to me :)
Actually, looking at it in more detail, that same hand may have belonged to the Registrar or whoever wrote the entries in the register . . . much of the writing looks very similar on both forms. :-\
That is a problem with handwriting, most specimens from a similar period in history look very much like each other.
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Hello again
I have had a look at my file and it is far from straightforward, I think you may have missed the family in 1851. Perhaps it might be easier if we contacted directly as there is quite a bit of information and some more mysteries to untangle.
I certainly don't have all the answers, and like all delving into family history you solve one mystery only to have another one on your hands!
What do you think?
Anida :o
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Many thanks Anida, I will PM you my email address.
Pat