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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: mum mum on Thursday 10 November 11 00:20 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I am posting this for a friend who cannot find any information about her Grandmothers birth.
Emily Matthews married Thomas Oswald Hayes in April 1918 at Cowra NSW. We do not need any information about this couple after their marriage, they had 8 children, 3 of whom are still living.
Emily and Thomas were married in the Church of England Cowra, by John Parr, Officiating Minister, witnesses were Annie Parr and Ethel Peterson.
Thomas was a farmer of Grenfell, parents Patrick Hayes and Norah Mary Castles, born at Nyngan age 26.
Emily Matthews was 19 years old, occupation, private life, of Grenfell NSW, born at Chiltern Vic. Parents Arthur Matthews, deceased and Annie, nee Rowe. The consent of the brides mother Annie Stokes was given in writing for the marriage.
We cannot find a birth for Emily, or any marriages that fit for Arthur Matthews and Annie Rowe, or another marriage for Annie to Stokes after Arthur Matthews death, date and place unknown.
Any ideas?
mum mum
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Hi Mum Mum,
I will try to find MATTHEWS/ ROWE/ STOKES in Cowra and surrounds in 1913.
EDIT 1
NSW ER 1913 LACHLAN oops, it was ::) LYNDHURST polling at Cowra ALL for Stokes
Mary Ann Keswick-street domestic duties,
Agnes Jane F Brisbane-street domestic duties
Stokes Marion Elsie Brisbane-street domestic duties
Mary Helen F Brisbane-street domestic duties
William Ashman, Brisbane-street financial agent
EDIT 2, SAME roll, polling at Morongla Creek
Arthur Stokes, labourer (none surnamed Rowe at this polling place)
Edit 3 This could be Emily's Mum
NSW ER 1913, LYNDHURST, polling at Woodstock.
Annie STOKES, of Woodstock, domestic duties
Daniel STOKES, of Woodstock, railway night officer
Ethel Grose STOKES, of Woodstock, domestic duties.
(none surnamed ROWE, MATTHEWS (or variations)
Cheers, JM
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Thanks, I will see what shows up for Annie and Daniel Stokes.
mum mum
Daniel Stokes married Ethel G Tucker at Cowra in 1910. Annie could be his stepmother though?
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Hi
Not that Daniel Stokes, it looks like he was born1883 at Carcoa, parents George and Annie.
A couple more thoughts, Emily may have had a sister Catherine or Katherine, my friends mother remembered a photo said to be of Emily's sister.
Emily was also thought to be educated and played piano.
Emily died in 1936, I must find out if she left a will or what happened to her property, the children didn't get it or the husband who died at the same time.
mum mum
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agh ... so that Annie Stokes would most likely be Daniel's mum and the Ethel was Daniel's wife.
::) I will pull thinking cap down harder.
Cheers, JM
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These are births I can see on the VIC index, they might be worth investigating further :)
MATTHEWS Emily Jane b. 1900 RUTHERGLEN #21999
Father: Edward Charles
Mother: Elizabeth Ann ROWLANDS
MATTHEWS Arthur Ernest 1896 CHILTERN #18638
Father: Edward
Mother: Elizabeth Ann ROWLANDS
MATTHEWS Eliz Ann 1894 CHILTERN #19317
Father: Edwd
Mother: Eliz Ann ROWLANDS
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Hi Merlin,
These births had been suggested to my friend by somebody else, she seems sure the name was Rowe. I'm not so sure.
I just looked for a marriage for that couple but can't seem to find anything in Vic, I better try NSW.
mum mum
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Yes, perhaps mum left dad & dropped the Elizabeth, shortened her surname & took up with a Mr Stokes, stranger things have happened ;D
Considering this is an Emily Matthews born right year & area you are looking for with a brother named Arthur is why I suggested it ;)
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Yes, just considering that myself, perhaps Dad left and Mum found another man, we had already thought that was possible as there is no remarriage.
Now, why can't I find the first marriage? I may get my friend to buy the birth certificate to see what it tells us.
mum mum
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Do you have any details on Annie STOKES? Death or otherwise?
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The family have nothing at all about Annie as they haven 't been able to pin down the birth. The only thing they know is that she apparently consented in writing to Emily's marriage in 1918, as Annie Stokes.
mum mum
I see newspaper reorts of Emily's death have her age as 42, the death certificate gives her age as 37. Her father, Arthur Matthews is listed as a clerk.
mum mum
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I speculate if I may.
Perhaps ROWE and ROWLANDS could be explained thus, .... perhaps Annie's literacy skills were not of university standard. So that if she could sign her nee name it could be that the 19thC handwriting has been mis understood as two separate words, depending on the context of course. Could it be that ANNIE ROWLANDS was mis read as "Annie Rowe AND" (then another noun to follow the 'and')
ROWLANDS
Rowlands
Rowland
Roweand
Rowe and
Hope this helps, and is not side tracking you but taking you back to the Emily Matthews birth at Rutherglen with younger older (oops) siblings at Chiltern, as found by Merlin.
Cheers, JM
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Have the family a copy of Emily's Probate files from SRO?
Emily Hayes - Date of Death 20/08/1936 - Granted on 14/05/1937
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I will give my friend a ring this evening and see if they have those files and also ask her to get the birth certificate for Emily Matthews b 1900. Will let you know when we have more.
mum mum
The probate packet tell nothing about Emily's family, the property was sold by the public trustee, neither Emily or Thomas left a will. I will get that birth certi tonight.
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Got the birth certificate for Emily Matthews born 1900 at Rutherglen.
Father Edward Charles Matthews, miner 29 yo born Lewis Pond NSW. Married at Dubbo 1893.
Mother Elizabeth Ann Rowlands 32 yo born Braidwood Victoria.
Elizabeth Ann 6 yo, Arthur Ernest 4 yo and Edward Charles 2 3/4
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Got the birth certificate for Emily Matthews born 1900 at Rutherglen.
Father Edward Charles Matthews, miner 29 yo born Lewis Pond NSW. Married at Dubbo 1893.
Mother Elizabeth Ann Rowlands 32 yo born Braidwood Victoria.
Elizabeth Ann 6 yo, Arthur Ernest 4 yo and Edward Charles 2 3/4
Still looks like a good possibility, considering that Emily & Annie appear back in NSW.
Lewis Ponds, Dubbo, Grenfell & Cowra...
Guess we need to do some more research & see what we can dig up on these other children & if it leads us anywhere.
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Thanks Merlin for your help, I will have to call it a night and get back to it tomorrow, early start in the morning.
mum mum
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:)
VIC ER 1903 Wangaratta among those with surname MATTHEWS :
Annie, Templeton Street Wangaratta, laundress
Edward Charles, Wangaratta, labourer
Cheers, JM
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Perhaps I am way off track
Grevilles 1875 Dir for ORANGE
Edward ROWE, farmer, Cave Creek (no sighting for Matthews ::) )
Grevilles 1875 DUBBO
E MATTHEWS, Bank of NSW, Macquarie St
Sands Country Dir 1917
Rev J Parr C of E COWRA
George L Rowe, auctioneer, COWRA
F Rowlands, J.P., President of the Waugoola Shire, COWRA
W A Stokes, stock and station agent, COWRA
(no sightings for Petersen/on or Matthews at Grenfell or Cowra)
Cheers, JM
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Here's the other child that appears on Emily's BC that I missed previously:
MATTHEWS Edward b. 1898 CHILTERN #25306
Father: Edward
Mother: Elizabeth Ann ROLLANDS
And another one born after Emily:
MATTHEWS Frank Gordon b. 1906 WANGARATTA #22908
Father: Edward
Mother: Elizabeth Ann ROWLANDS
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Hi Mum mum,
Got the birth certificate for Emily Matthews born 1900 at Rutherglen.
Father Edward Charles Matthews, miner 29 yo born Lewis Pond NSW. Married at Dubbo 1893.
Mother Elizabeth Ann Rowlands 32 yo born Braidwood Victoria.
Elizabeth Ann 6 yo, Arthur Ernest 4 yo and Edward Charles 2 3/4
Does it give who registered this please?
I cannot find the marriage MATTHEWS=ROWLANDS 1893 Dubbo, nor any likely, BUT I do know there are some missing entries on the NSW BDM online index. I recall a thread on RChat re a missing Salvation Army at Broken Hill register for around that time. Some rural parishes' registers for that era do not seem to have indexed by NSW BDM, due perhaps in part to the reluctance of the various denominations to comply with the civil requirements in that era.
Cheers, JM
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Back again,
The informant on the birth is Edward Charles Matthews, father, Great Southern [ I presume the Great Southern mine?]
mum mum
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1903 Electoral Roll
Wangaratta, Victoria
Edward Charles MATTHEWS, labourer
Elizabeth Ann MATTHEWS, home duties
This man doesn't fit with Emily's stated father being a clerk. "Emily was thought to be educated and played the piano", and she wasn't employed when she married which in itself would be unusual in a working class family.
I find myself wondering whether the mother Annie was actually present at the wedding. If she wasn't, then of course anything goes, but if she was there when she gave permission for Emily to marry then is it likely that the details given are her version of events rather than Emily's?
It also seems as though there was no close family around at the time of Emily's death. If she had siblings, surely one of them would have stepped in to help the children?
Sorry, not really adding anything here, just thinking aloud ;D
Debra :)
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Would this be worth following up?
Annie STOKES
Died: 15 Mar 1933
Cemetery: Woodstock, NSW
Section: Anglican
Compiled By: Cowra Family History Group Inc
More Information Is Available From Cowra Family History Group Inc.
Debra :)
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Thinking out loud is permitted, its called brainstorming, thats what rootschatters do so well.
Emily's mother wasn't present at the wedding, her permission was given in writing. That makes me think that Emily cant have been very old when her father died, if Edward Charles was her father.
mum mum
Looking for Annie Stokes death in NSW, the only one in 1933 is at Glebe, parents William and Elizabeth.
Annie Rowlands birth as Elizabeth Ann, there are two possibilities,Elisa Ann Rowland at Avoca 18667, parents William and Elizabeth.
Elizabeth Rowlands at Cambrian H in 1868, parents John and Johannah.
My geography is letting me down here, are either of those near Braidwood Victoria? Is there a Braidwood in Vic?
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I am currently trying to sort through some of my brainstorming notes I have been collecting ::)
Hopefully I'll be back later & see where we can go from there ;D
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It's always worth remembering that the district of registration may not be anywhere near the place of death. I have seen a death registered at a town in Southern NSW, although the death took place in Sydney; the registration and funeral were in the town hundreds of miles away. A registration district may be quite large also so the death may occur some distance from the reg town.
Getting the certificate would be really useful :-\
As far as I know there is no Braidwood in Victoria; it's in NSW between Canberra and the coast. However, using Google I see a "Braidwood Equestrian Centre" near Healesville, Victoria.
Wondering who Emily was with in Grenfell when she married as her mother apparently wasn't and her father deceased. Judith
Judith
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Hi there,
It is possible that Annie Stokes was present at the wedding. May I explain (I will try to avoid long post but ::) :-X )
Emily's father is deceased, and Emily, being a minor needs consent to marry. The Rev applies his interpretation to both the Church and the Civil Laws prevailing at that time, and thus he determines that he needs her mother's consent IN WRITING, as the mother is (sorry this is reflecting the then prevailing practices) 'only a female, and has been married twice over'
It is also possible that the clergyman insisted on the information about Emily's parentage be provided to him by Annie rather than by Emily, simply because she was still a minor and thus in a legal sense she was not yet old enough to be heard.
I am wondering about the Stock and Station Agent in Cowra, in 1917 ... the W A Stokes. ... that 'occupation' is one associated with 'wealth' ::) and also about the Shire President, the F Rowlands... or the auctioneer, George Rowe.
Cheers, JM
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Okay... while I go & eat my dinner that my beautiful hubby has cooked :-*
You all might like to have a read of this very large file at the NAA on Arthur Ernest STOAKES/STOKES aka MATTHEWS :o
STOAKES Arthur Ernest : Service Number - 6632 : Place of Birth - Wangaratta VIC
Place of Enlistment - Cootamundra NSW : Next of Kin - (Mother) STOAKES Elizabeth Ann
If you look at the NSW BDM his sister Elizabeth MATTHEWS married Edward CORE.
Back later ;)
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Thank you thank you, that looks to be the missing link. I was trying to look for him as Matthews and having no luck on the electoral rolls or marriages. That was the next step.
mum mum
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Page 9
Mother, Mrs A E Stockes, Grenfell.
Sister, Mrs Elizabeth Core, Vaux St Cowra
Page 47 NSW Govt Railways and Tramways
D o B 21 Aug 1895
Page 57
Mrs A E Stokes, at Grenfell, 6 Sept 1922
Page 66
An investigation by the OIC, Headquarters Training Area 56C, Drill Hall YOUNG ... "parents separated when children were very young, and they were reared by the State in Victoria, none of the family knew anything of their parents .... "
Page 89
Memorial Scroll, to his Mother, Mrs A W Stoakes, 23 March 1923
Very confusing AIF file, I didn't notice any mention of MATTHEWS, but I may have missed it.
Cheers, JM
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NSW ER 1913 COOTAMUNDRA, polling at Junee
NONE surnamed Matthews, Stoakes, Stokes.
NSW ER 1913 LYNDHURST, polling at Cowra
Edward Clarence CORE, of Cowra, trainer (re page 66 the Drill Hall OIC's investigations)
Cheers, JM
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Yes very confusing reading, but do you agree that the mother Annie Elizabeth Stokes ties Arthur Ernest to Emily Hayes?
That Emily Hayes was Emily Jane Matthews, with a sister Elizabeth and brother Arthur Ernest.
I don't think anything about this family is goind to be simple, they don't seem to have convenient marriaged records and deaths of spouses to help us track them down do they.
The army records say that Elizabeths mother in law said the children were raised by the state and had no knowledge of their parents but iit is obvious that Emily and Arthur both knew their mother. Emily when she married knew who her mother was and arthur listed her as his next of kin the first time he enlisted. He was also using the name Stoakes, not Matthews.
At least now I have something to pass on to Emily's Granddaughter.
mum mum
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Yes, I do think that Merlin's find is opening a big crack in the brickwall, and I agree that Emily and Arthur both seem to know their mother. The b.c. that Merlin found for the birth in 1906 of Frank Gordon Matthews may well be a wise penny spend. Emily would have been around 6 years of age, and Arthur around 11 at that time.
I am sure this crack will open wider, and the mortar will collapse... but as to when ... well there may need to be lots more brain storming, or the jigsaw could just assemble itself without any ado at all.
However, I feel that Emily's Grand-daughter will appreciate what has been found so far, and that it gives her reason to continue to hope. I feel sure you will know the good words to slowly move forward through each piece of information as it unravels.
Cheers, JM
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Edward Stoakes brother of Arthur gets a mention in one of the letters stating that he is said to be working at the Meat works in Echuca.
Then we have another very large file at the NAA on Edward CORE, KIA who was husband to Elizabeth MATTHEWS.
Some interesting reading in there also ;)
CORE Edward Clarance : SERN 66196/2765 : POB Cowra NSW : POE Dubbo NSW : NOK M Core Mary
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And there's a file NOT yet digitised for
1917- 1917 Edward Clarence Pullen CORE; 25; Cowra NSW, its barcode is 6522559
His eldest son Master W H Core received the Memorial Scoll and the Memorial Plaque.
Cheers, JM
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Children registered to Edward & Elizabeth CORE (nee Matthews):
CORE William H b. 1911 COWRA #39417
CORE James A b. 1913 COWRA #32684
CORE Kenneth M b. 1915 COWRA #8684
CORE Arthur H b. 1917 LITHGOW #13058
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.....1911 COWRA #39417
.....1913 COWRA #32684
.....1915 COWRA #8684
.....1917 LITHGOW #13058
From Ryerson
William SMH 3 Oct 1985,
James, Junee Southern Cross 13 May 1999
Arthur SMH 7 Dec 1967
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
Outside the square thinking, late at night, so I could be way off track.
NSW BDM marriages 1888
Annie ROWE and William H CARE registered at Sydney # 708 (could CARE be CORE ?)
Cheers, JM
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Great find Merlin - I was mucking about looking for Arthur MATTHEWS ::) There is some great information in both Arthur and Edward's records.
Mum Mum, just regarding the written consent for Emily's marriage, this section is pre printed on marriage registration documents.
The Consent of..........being the ..........of the Bridegroom, was given in writing to the Marriage.
The Consent of..........being the ..........of the Bride, was given in writing to the Marriage.
If both were of age then this section is generally crossed out. I always thought that "in writing" actually meant that they had to sign the Church Register, but JM might know more about that. Perhaps the register might be worth a look to see if she did sign?
Elizabeth was also underage when she married in 1911 so that cert would also be worth looking at. Just as an aside, I wonder why Edward CORE's birth year was changed from 1892 to 1894 on his service record? The birth was registered in 1892 (indexed as Edmond C. P.)
Is it a 100 year closure on State Ward records? You might just make it.
So who was the mysterious Mr STOKES? ???
Debra :)
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2 AM & Mr JM wakes JM .. e reader wifi ... 'read please'
From memory ... U21 mc Sydney 1915 bride gave letter from her NZ CHCH based mum also signed by Mum's new husband to the Sydney CofE rev giving consent for marrriage. This is from that new husbands diary. New husband was also aa Rev and known to Sydney Rev.
will phone my living rellie to check what the 1910s actual rules were in arounf ten hrs.
The bride was given away by her brother as their father was deceased. The bro was not yet 21. And yes that deceasd father was a Rev CofE
Cannot do faces at the wifi but I am rolling my eyes.
Cheers JM
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Hi
"Good question, check the images available online for Christ Church Cathedral, Nescastle NSW .... look and notice that Rev'ds handwriting usually completes the section re consent"
So after checking several errr many .... I still cannot recognise any pattern to give an informed answer re if the person giving consent was usually present ....
NB the images are linked via RChats NSW Resources Board and are a fantastic resource.
Now to add the question to my MUST FIND ANSWER list ...
Sorry, alas I cannot say one way or other IF the Bride's mother was at the marriage ceremony for Emily Matthews ...
Cheers JM
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Hi,
i had a phone call on on the weekend from emily's Grand daughter who was very exicted that she is awaiting the records for Emily and her siblings being placed in carein Victoria around 1905.
Apparently she had written to a lot of institutions before but got no result as she didn't have the correct information about the parents and siblings, so thank you forr finding the correct parents.
When she gets this informtion she hopes to be able to find out more about Emiliy's mother Annie, you may be needed again.
mum mum
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Hi
Edward Charles Matthew seems to have been a bit of a rotter.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article70758047
We have a bit more information from Emily's sister Elizabeth's marriage to Edward Core in 1911. Elizabeth's mothers name is given as ANSON.
From Emily's birth certificate we were given mothers place of birth as Braidwood Vic. On Frank and Edwards , birth certificates her place of birth is Braidwood NSW. Her age is consistent, born 1868.
Date and place of parents marriage, [Edward Matthews and Elizabeth Ann Rowwlands ] is given as Dubbo, or Blayney NSW date 1893, 1894, different months depending on which parents gave the info.
Fathers place of birth is consistent, Lewis Ponds NSW, near Bathurst, around 1870.
So I think Elizabeth A Rowlands is possibly the Elizabeth A Rowlands born 1868 at Penrith to Thomas and Lucy. They have William 1870 at Penrith and Thomas 1872 at Bathurst, puts them in the right area for Elizabeth Ann to meet Edward Matthews. The son William dies at Carcoar in 1873.
Any ideas
mum mum
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Hi,
NSW ER 1870 THE NEPEAN
Surnamed MATTHEWS
Robert , freehold, at Garswood, Rope’s Creek
Robert, residence, St Mary’s
John, household, Penrith
William Denham, freehold, Penrith
James, household, Gaswood
Cannot see any ROWLANDS or likely on that roll.
NSW ER 1870 BATHURST
William MATTHEWS, residence, George St
Cannot see any ROWLANDS or likely on that roll.
NSW ER 1870 BRAIDWOOD
Cannot see any ROWLANDS or likely there either
1867 New South Wales Alphabetical Directory Country Districts
...... Parramatta, Penrith, Picton, Campbelltown &c.
W D Mathews, Penrith (only one ‘t’)
T Mathews, Penrith (only one ;’t’)
G Matthews, Emu Plains
Henry Matthews (no location specified)
Edward Liscombe ROWLING (is this close enough to ROWLANDS though)
Will look for ANSON
Cheers, JM
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;D
NSW ER 1870 BRAIDWOOD
Aaron ANSON, freehold, Braidwood
My fingers are crossed for you
Cheers, JM
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Oops, forgot to include
NSW ER 1870 BRAIDWOOD
Thomas MATHEW residence Braidwood
Henry MATHEWS, residence Marlow
Henry MATHEWS residence freehold Little River Road
James MATHEWS, residence, Durham Hall, Jembaloumbone
Joseph MATTHEWS, household, Upper Araluen
Frederick MATTHEWS, household Newtown
Frank Matthews, household, Middle Araluen
Cheers, JM
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Thanks
I wonder if that Thomas at Braidwood happened to be married to Lucy? I think we will look at getting some transcriptions for that family and see where it goes.
If he was a miner and moving around, I wonder where he went. I can't see any more births or deaths in NSW for Thomas or Lucy.
mum mum
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Sorry mum mum - I'm not making sense of this.
Is it Annie Elizabeth Rowland, (later Matthews, later Sto(a)kes) who was supposedly born in Braidwood? And is it Annie Elizabeth whose name is listed as ANSON on Emily's sister's marriage cert?
Judith
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Hi Judith,
At the marriage of the eldest daughter, Elizabeth Matthews, she gives her mothers name as ANSON.
At Emily's marriage she gives her mothers name as STOAKES. Some of the children use the name Matthews, some Stoakes or Stokes.
We cannot find any marriages in any of these names so I have looked for Elizabeth Anne Rowlands marriage sometime before her relationship with Edward Matthews.
I have lso looked for a marriage for Edward Matthews, and did find one but it looks like there were two Edward Matthews around the same part of NSW. The other fellow was still having a family with his wife while our fellow was in Chiltern and Rutherglen.
On a different track, we have found an Elizabeth Anne Stokes on the electoral roll, 1943. Dalley Leichhardt at 153 Elswick Street. Cant sseem to place her on any other rolls though. Then there is Ann Elizabeth Stokess death at Redfern 1945, mother listed as Caroline, age 85. Age is out by 8 years but still possible.
I have been spending time going through the roll for Liedhhardt trying to find someone else at 153 Elswick Street, up to the 'Ms' last night.
Another piece of information is that' Annie' Matthews had a fruit shop in Ardlethan and went bankrupt in 1914, she is said to have had a fruit shop in Grenfell too, most likely after this I would think if the children could remember it.
mum mum
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Death and funeral notices for Anne Elizabeth STOKES d June 1945 say that she died at her daughter's residence, 12 Bourke St, Redfern. Daughter's name is Mrs Elizabeth May EGAN.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/27936936
And look at this marriage:
15101/1924 registered at ANNANDALE
James C EGAN
Elizabeth M CORE
Found her! ;D ;D She is buried at Botany.
Judith
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Bingo, I couldn't find the daughters name. That certainly make it worth getting the death certificate then. I will strongly advise for the purchase of a transcription ASAP.
I hope to see my friend this afternoon and get her logged into Rootschat, she was having trouble getting on.
Thankyou mum mum
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HMMM
What do you think of this one?
Birth
5860/1863
Annie E VERNES
Parents John, Caroline
Reg at BRAIDWOOD
Cannot see anything at all for any other VERNES except another child Alfred born 1862 also at Braidwood
Judith
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Hi
Young Alfred died 1862, spelt Verness.
We are getting ahead of ourselves but I also found
Gyde Elizabeth born 1864 Braidwood to John and Caroline
Phebey Elizabeth A born 1860 at Braidwood to Thomas and Caroline.
None of these fathers hae conveniently died and had widows remarry to Rowlands.
mum mum
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Wonder if Verne could also be Werne??
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What surnames are Gyde Elizabeth and Phebey Elizabeth, please? I can't see them on NSW BMDS.
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Sorry, the surnames are Gyde and Phebey, thats how they are on the index.
mum mum
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Count Elizabeth Phepey out, she married twice, then died in Qld in 1915.
mum mum
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Doh............................. How dumb am I! :-[
And count out Elizabeth GYDE - she married in 1900 to Joseph WHITING, died 1957 in Auburn.
Just these mysterious VERNES. I cannot see any entries anywhere much for that surname and certainly none that fit Annie Elizabeth born in Braidwood or her family. Cannot see anything for VERNESS either except for little Alfred's death.
Going back to the ANSON connection that JM found listed on an ER in Braidwood - from TROVE there appear to be 2 Aaron ANSONs in Braidwood at around that time. Araluen, which JM also mentioned with some MATTHEWs living there, is close to Braidwood which would be the town where BMD registrations for Araluen would be recorded. I think too many people in genealogy assume that the place of registration of a BMD is the place where the event actually occurred when it is only where the registration happened. Araluen was quite a gold mining area at the time so that many of the population would moved on as the gold ran out.
It will be very interesting to see the detials on the death cert. This lady had such a chequered life that perhaps it wouldn't all fit on a certificate ::)
Judith
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Same as me, I didn't see the funeral notice on the same page I was looking at.
I am going to order tonight, the death cert transcrpt for Elizabeth Ann Stokes died 1945.
I will keep looking today to see if any others may give us a clue so I can order them at the same time. There is the death of the daughter Elizabeth in 1974, I wonder if that could be usefull. It would tell us more about young Elizabeth but what else?
It looks like Elizabeths last two sons may still be alive, born 1915 and 1917, no deaths on Ryerson.
mum mum
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Hi
While waiting for the transcriptions I have still been looking on NSW BDM and found,
Caroline Rowlands married Richard Rowe 1889 at Cowra Reg no 4135.
Could this explain the Rowe/ Rowlands confusion?
A Richard Rowe died in 1893 at Carcoa, cant find another marriage or death for Caroline Rowe, assuming she could be Elizabeth Anne Stoke's mother.
Hurry up with those transcriptions, I think I want another one.
mum mum
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ???
Interesting - the Australian Death Index gives the place of that marriage (Rowe/Rowlands) as Captain's Flat which is in the same general area as Braidwood/Araluen (47k apart). Strange that there are the two conflicting places on the two indexes. All of the details, including the reg no are the same otherwise.
Judith
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I'm excited, just got the two transcriptions I ordered.
Anne Elizabeth Stokes died 10-6-1945
85 years
Father unknown Rowlands, farmer.
Mother Caroline 'Varmeos' [mother's name is unclear Var---? Margin entry: 47743/66]
What does the margin entry mean?
Informant Elizabeth M Egan, daughter
Place of birth Sunny Corner NSW
Place of marriage, Carcoar NSW
Age at marriage 16 years
Spouse William Stokes [widow]
Children of marriage Agnes 60 years, Elizabeth M 50 years iving, none deceased.
Seem to have forgotten about Emily and the boys.
Judith you said they wouldn't be able to fit it all on one certifcate but it's opened up another can of worms hasn't it.
The other certificate is Edward Matthews birth 15-7-1871
Place Icely
Father Charles Matthews, Carter, 21 years, born NSW.
Date of marriage 25-7-1870 at Icely
Mother Helen formerly Hartnett, 23 years born NSW
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article70758047
This article shows that Edward Matthews used the name Hartnett as an alias in 1906.
mum mum
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I love it when a plan comes together.
Annie E Varness married William Stokes 1879 at Carcoa, reg 2788.
Goes with the birth Judith found, Annie E 'Verness' to John and Caroline 1863 at Braidwood, reg 5860.
mum mum
Agnes born 1880 at Carcoa reg 12216.
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Just an update and then I will call this completed, we may start a new post to find more about Edward Matthews.
Heres the details of the events I found last night, armed with that extra information from the transcripts.
Annie E Vernes, born 1863 at Braidwood NSW Reg no 5860 mother Caroline, father John
Albert A Vernes born 1862 at Braidwood Reg no 5808, Annies brother.
John Varness died 1872 at Bathurst Reg 3085.
Catherine [Caroline ] Vernass marries David Rowland 1872 at Bathurst Reg 1619.
Annie E Varness marries William Stokes at Carcoar in 1879 Reg no 2788
Agnes Stokes born at Cowra in 1880 Reg no 12216
I am sure I had found a death for David Rowland but at the moment I can’t find it again.
Caroline Rowlands marries Richard Rowe at Carcoa in 1889. There is a death for a Richard Rowe at Carcoa in 1893, could be him.
mum mum
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Mum Mum, this has been a great search. So pleased that the detective work and the transcripts paid off.
I notice this death - perhaps it's David ROWLAND :-\
1885 #8234, registered at Carcoar
David T ROLAND
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's name: Nancy
Aha - it is ;D
Australian Cemetery Index shows:
David Thomas ROLAND aged 54
d 10.11.1885
Parents Thomas, Nancy
M: Caroline VENESS
Died: Frenchmans Reef
Buried: Carcoar C of E
Judith
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Thanks Judith
That looks like him, it's been amazing how all of the surnames that have been mentioned along the way as being Annies maiden name are popping up now. I have just found that Caroline Vernes was Caroline Anson.
John Fernes married Caroline Anson at Braidwood in 1861, reg 1457. Only two children, Annie and Alfred who died 1862.
its making me wonder what the hell Vernes, Fernes etc really was. I found a crew member on the 'Dirige' in 1860, John Vernas from Rotherdam born abt 1833, I think that may be him.
mum mum
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Baby Alfred is buried at Braidwood Cemetery - no headstone
Alfred VERNESS, buried 1862, parents: John Verness, Caroline
Location of grave ? unmarked
http://www.australiancemeteries.com/nsw/palerang/braidwood_gen.htm
This may be Caroline's arrival - 9 May 1858 on the Northern Light to Sydney
Reel 2138, [4/4795]; Reel 2477, [4/4976]
ANSON Aaron 21 farm labourer, b Cheshire, C of E, can read and write
ANSON Caroline 18 general house servant, b Cheshire,
ANSON Clara 41 housekeeper, b Derbyshire, C of E, can read and write
The family is also mentioned on the CSReLAND files. William Henry ANSON may not be the same family as the date is so much earlier.
2/7790 1083 ANSON Aaron 1852 1852
2/7790 1083 ANSON Flora 1853 1853
2/7790 1083 ANSON William Henry 1840 1840
Aaron ANSON holds licences for a number of inns in the Majors Creek Araluen and Mongarlowe areas (all near Braidwood)
(These are all from http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx )
Further work is needed to unravel these ANSONS! Perhaps a new thread for them as well if you want to go further with Caroline.
However - FamilySearch has this birth/baptism
Caroline ANSON
Birth: 29 JUN 1840
Christening: 13 SEP 1857 St George, Hyde, Cheshire, England
Parents:
Mother: Clara Anson (no father listed)
This baptism would fit with her being baptised not long before leaving UK.
This looks like them in 1851 at Hoviley? Lane, Hyde, Cheshire. Obviously the mother's name is not the same.
Sarah Anson 36 Head, Unmarried, Cotton card room hand (frame tester), b Ingham Derbyshire
Aaron Anson 17 Son, Cotton roller curryer card room, b Ingham Derbyshire
Caroline Anson 15 dau, Cotton card room hand, b Newton Cheshire
Joseph Turner 30 lodger
1841 at Johns St, Newton Cheshire
John Anson 65, stonemason
William Anson 25, labourer
Aaron Anson 7
Sarah Anson 30, cotton card room
Charlotte Anson 20, cotton weaver
Caroline Anson 4
Such a pity the 1841 does not show relationships >:(
Seems as though Sarah may have changed to Clara somewhere along the way!
Judith
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Re Aaron ANSON - NSW BMDs show there were two Aaron ANSONs in Braidwood.
This is Caroline's brother:
Deaths:
1867, #4517
Aaron ANSON, parents John, Clara
TROVE has an advertisement re administration of his estate to his mother Clara LIEZER
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13156703
NSW BMD Marriage
1858 # 1506 Clara ANSON m Samuel LEIZER
The other one's death
1882 #6530
Aaron ANSON, parents John Caroline
TROVE has mentions of this person in Braidwood as early as 1855.
Arrival of older Aaron ANSON, 31, stonemason - 11 March 1841 on the Brothers; born Belper Derbyshire, son of John ANSON stonemason,
Aaron's wife Elizabeth ANSON, 34, house servant, parents deceased, born Bolton Lancs. They have one child -Wright ANSON.
Judith
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Hi Judith
I found that arrival last night and the census records for Sarah/Clara, I saw the marriage and went to go back and check the Sarah/Clara and my internet was on a go slow, went to bed in digust.
I can understand Sarah being Clara on the ship, easy enough to mistake a spoken word. I wonder if the marriage is another transcription error.
We will get Caroline Anson's marriage next week and see what that comes up with, do you think the 1861 marriage will be complete or would it be safer to get one of her later marriages to get parents names?
mum mum
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I think Sarah changed her name to Clara. She is Sarah on the 1841 and 51 censuses but from Caroline's baptism (1857) onward she is Clara in all records from very different sources - immigration, death of Aaron, her own marriage etc. I cannot see a death for her though.
As to which cert to order - ??? :-\ :-X - I'm not very au fait with NSW certs so don't know.
Judith
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Hello again
I have ordered the birth of Annie E Vernes 1863, and the marriage of Caroline Rowlands to Richard Rowe in 1889. Hoping that we may get a clearer idea of what the name 'Vernes' actually was. I also hope we will get the names of Richard Rowe's parents to make it easier to find his death and perhaps Carolines. Hoping also for Carolines fathers name and some more about her mother.
mum mum
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My fingers are crossed that the 1889 mc has been reconciled to ALL the Church registers ... sometimes 5 were needed to get all the info.. I will get cracking on looking for VERNES and variations tomorrow in expectation that NSWBDM did reconcile that mc and there will not be any further hurdles to tackle, but it will definitely give the Denomination and place , and witnesses so it can be followed up.
Cheers JM
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Any of the NSWBDM marriages 1856 to 1895 fall into the 'grey area' as Church v State issues re access was a political hot potato topic. Until 1880 none of those mcs were registered at NSWBDM.... to 1895 only summary info was forwarded. In 1912 NSWBDM commenced to reconcile their summaries with the Church registers and then WWI resulted in their experiened clerks enlisting. The reconcilation process has not ever been completed by NSWBDM but most of the Church registers are findable thus I see only hurdles and NO brickwalls once there is the mc.
Perhaps you could pre-alert the family.
Cheers JM
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Grevilles 1875 Directory
CARCOAR
George ROWLANDS, sen., sheep inspector
George ROWLANDS, jun., farmer
Henry ROWLANDS, farmer
NSW ER 1878 CARCOAR
John ROWE, residence Blayney
Richard ROWE, residence Gally Swamp
Alfred Wm ROWE, residence Blayney
David ROWLAND, residence Brown’s Creek
Evan ROWLANDS, residence Brown’s Creek
George ROWLANDS, senior, freehold, Rockville
George ROWLANDS, junior, freehold, Rockville
Henry ROWLANDS, residence Rockville
NSW ER 1878 BRAIDWOOD
There are three listed with surnames commencing with “V” .... VARNUM, VIDER, VOLLER.
John ROWE, residence Little River
NSW ER 1870 BRAIDWOOD
There are five listed with surnames commencing with “V” VIDER, 3 x VINCENT, VYNER
Henry ROW, residence Little River
William ROWE, household, Newtown, Araluen
Edward ROWE, household, Newtown, Araluen
John ROWE, household, Newtown, Araluen
John ROWE, household Little River
John ROWE, residence Jembaicumbene
John ROWE, residence, Jembaicumbene (JM notes ...yes, this may and may not be a duplication, it is listed twice)
William ROWE, residence Upper Araluen
NSW ER 1870 CARCOAR
There are two surnames commencing with “V” ... VANE, VIPER
John ROWE, residence, Blayney
George ROWLANDS senior, freehold Rockville
George ROWLANDS junior, freehold Rockville
Henry ROWLANDS, residence, Rockville
John ROWLANDS, residence, Clifden
NSW ER 1903 MACQUARIE
Polling at Carcoar
Elizabeth ROWLANDS, of Neville, dd
Polling at Blayney
John ROWE, of Blayney West, miner
William ROWE, of Blayney West, miner
Sophia ROWLANDS, of near Blayney, dd
Polling at Brown’s Creek (only 95 enrolled for this location)
Fanny STOKES, of Brown’s Creek, dd
Polling at Burnt Yards
William STOKES, of Burnt Yards, miner
And as an aside, of no apparent link to anyone mentioned in this thread,
NSW ER 1903, MACQUARIE,
Polling at King’s Plains,
Percival Lionel Harold Basil ST. JEAN –WALTHO-ANSTRUTHER, of King’s Plains, miner (I typed this up simply because of the unusual length for the name of this chap, the printer reduced the typeface to fit it all in. It is listed between STEVENSON and STONESTREET, so the surname would commence at ST JEAN. Two typefaces used, so I presume the given names commence with Percival)
Alas, not yet found any VERNES or variations, perhaps I am not yet looking in the ‘right’ location, but there is that NSW BDM birth in 1862 for Alfred VERNES, son of John and Caroline, and registered at Braidwood to support the 1863 one for Annie E.... so I was hoping to find Alfred somewhere ! ::)
Cheers, JM
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Hi
Unfortunately Alfred Vernes died in 1862, the year of his birth so we cannot follow him up.
I just got the transcription on Annie E Vernes birth and it seems that the name is Vernes, I filled my agent in on the different spellings so far and he has come back with Vernes on this one.
Annies father is John Vernes 28 years old in 1863, so born 1835ish, in Holland, looks to me like he is the crewmember, John Vernas on the Dirige in 1860.
Carolines marriage to Richard Rowe was a waste of money, it gives no details on either of them. They were married on the 11-8-1889 in The Church of England Carcoar by the Rev Richard F Read. Any ideas on how to find the parish record. Hoping to find parents names for both of them to help find Carolines death.
mum mum
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Oh mum mum, :(
Yet another "not yet reconciled" NSW BDM mc.
The C of E at Carcoar is most likely part of Blayney (or vice versa). Here is a link to the Diocese of Bathurst's contacts page
http://www.bathurstanglican.org.au/ContactUs.html
Here's links to the family history groups at Bathurst, and Cowra
http://bathurstfhg.asn.au/ http://cfhg.webs.com/
Fingers crossed (I do so wish RChat had a smiley thingy for "JM stamping her foot because of another NSW BDM hurdle" )
Cheers, JM
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mum mum,
Would the witnesses to the 1889 Carcoar marriage be worthwhile following?
Cheers, JM
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Did the birth cert for Annie give a parent marriage, mother's place of birth and occupation for the father? Also wondering what where they were living at the time of the birth and who was present at the birth.
Judith
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Hi
Sorry, I couldn't get back on line to answer last night, my mobile internet modem only seems to be working during the daytime.
Carolines age is 22 and place of birth Hyde [Park[ England, the place of birth is partially obscured by the binding and is assumed to be Hyde Park.
Date of marriage is Feb 1861 at Braidwood, that fits the Anson-Fernes marriage.
Registered Henry Matthews 14 April 1863 Braidwood. Theres that Matthews name again, I wonder if he was any connection.
mum mum
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I think the place of birth for Caroline could be HYDE as in Cheshire, England.
See the baptisms that Judith posted :)
Adding, also this link
http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/
Cheers, JM
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You may remember this from my reply#67
However - FamilySearch has this birth/baptism
Caroline ANSON
Birth: 29 JUN 1840
Christening: 13 SEP 1857 St George, Hyde, Cheshire, England
Parents:
Mother: Clara Anson (no father listed)
This baptism would fit with her being baptised not long before leaving UK.
In 1851 the family is at Hoviley? Lane, Hyde, Cheshire.
So Hyde is not Hyde Park but Hyde in Cheshire - your transcription agent my be interested to know 8)
Was the Matthews on the birth cert the actual registrar, or the informant? Were they living at Braidwood or Araluen?
Judith
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Hi
The place of birth is Little River, informant Charles H Rich, Gold Fields Chaplain. It looks like the registrar is Henry Matthews.
Yes I believe the birth was Cheshire, Hyde Park is in London isn't it?
Why can't I find her birth or Aaron's, they are both after civil registration.
mum mum
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This could be another of my "JM red herrings" .... but
NSW Govt Gazette part 1, page 1428 Unclaimed letters at GPO,Sydney as at 15 June 1859 Mrs C VENESS, Maitland
Cheers, JM
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Hi
There was another Veness family in NSW, Clara Veness died 1890 at Granville, from a family tree, she was not connected to ours, her grandfather was Engliish.
Back to our family,
Samuel Leizar died 1893, at Liverpool.
Clara Seizer died 1868 at Braidwood, registered Brewarrina. no 3447, 60 years old, no parents listed. Not worth getting that certificate I would think, except to find out where she is buried.
mum mum
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Re the births of Aaron and Caroline ANSON - the 1851 census entries give ages for them that would put their births earlier than civil registration. The baptism record from FamilySearch gives a date in 1840 for Caroline's birth but the actual baptism was in 1857, and with this family one can't rely on information being exact ::)
A baptism certificate was often used as ID before civil registration which may be why Caroline was baptised as a teenager.
I cannot see a baptism for Aaron. :( Nor for Clara/Sarah for that matter - however we don't know if she was married or not so was ANSON a married name or her birth name.
There is an inquest for Aaron ANSON dated 19 December 1867, held at Araluen - death caused by accidental injury.
Judith
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FamilySearch has this birth/baptism
Caroline ANSON
Birth: 29 JUN 1840
Christening: 13 SEP 1857 St George, Hyde, Cheshire, England
Mother: Clara Anson (no father listed)
This baptism would fit with her being baptised not long before leaving UK.
This looks like them in 1851 at Hoviley? Lane, Hyde, Cheshire. Obviously the mother's name is not the same.
Sarah Anson 36 Head, Unmarried, Cotton card room hand (frame tester), b Ingham Derbyshire
Aaron Anson 17 Son, Cotton roller curryer card room, b Ingham Derbyshire
Caroline Anson 15 dau, Cotton card room hand, b Newton Cheshire
Joseph Turner 30 lodger
1841 at Johns St, Newton Cheshire
John Anson 65, stonemason
William Anson 25, labourer
Aaron Anson 7
Sarah Anson 30, cotton card room
Charlotte Anson 20, cotton weaver
Caroline Anson 4
Such a pity the 1841 does not show relationships >:(
Seems as though Sarah may have changed to Clara somewhere along the way!
Mother Clara was baptised the same day as her daughter Caroline ;D
Clara ANSON
Baptism: 13 Sep 1857
Place: St George, Hyde, Cheshire, England
Birth Date: 05 Nov 1817
Father's Name: John Anson - this would be her father John age 65yrs on the 1841 census
Mother's Name: Catherine
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Hi
So that looks like the end of the road with that line then if Aaron and Caroline's father/fathers are unknown. Clara would have altered her age and called herself a widow I guess in order to gain free passage, I believe younger people were prefferred. I will pass that information on.
mum mum
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Hi
Just in time for the weekend.
I got two death certificates, John Varness died 1872, father Peter who was a sea captain, John arrived 13 years before his death, so around 1859-60. Place of birth Dover England, thats different to Annies birth cert.
Richard Rowe who died in Carcoar was the third husband of Caroline Anson, so she is a widow again.
Can anyone tell me anything about Caroline Roe who died at Bathurst in 1897, reg no 10995.
mum mum
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I have got quite attached to this family ::)
ACT Genealogy Society has some good records for Braidwood etc so will go over and have a bit of a look next week.
What age was given on John Varness/Vernes/Fernes death cert, please and does it match the age given on Annie's bc? With all the different spellings of his surname I think he won't be easy to find. And it looks as though he missed Civil Registration in UK - how inconsiderate 8)
Judith
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Hi Judith
Good to see someone else isn't at work today either.
Annies birth certi gives her fathers age as 28 in 1861, born 1833, the death certi gives his age as 40 years in 1872, born 1832.
Birth cert says born Holland Europe, death says Dover England, mind you his death certi was filled in by wife Caroline where the birth info comes from the goldfields Chaplain.
I still think he is the sailor who arrived on the 'Dirige' in 1860.
Can you find anything on Caroline Roe 1897 at Bathurst, my frien is sstill willing to spend money but I would like to be more sure of who she was before I lash out again.
mum mum
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Hey - retirement is great!! ;D
I have just re-looked at the image for the sailor and I think it is actually VERNES or VERNAS. His nationality is given as "Rotterdam". However if his father was a sea-captain he could easily have been born in Dover but still be of Dutch nationality. I wouldn't like to say that Caroline may have been hard-pressed to remember her own details LOL
There is a public tree (perhaps it's been updated by you or your friend as last entry is 12 Feb) which gives Caroline's name on the transcription of his death as Caroline HANSON. This transcript also gives the name of his mother as Elizabeth PRINER
Whoo-hoo, next search:
FamilySearch has this:
JOHANNES VERNES
Birth: 18 DEC 1832 Dordrecht, Zuid Holland, Netherlands
Father: PIETER VERNES
Mother: ELISABETH PRINS
HOWEVER - only a submitted entry :-\
Judith
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Now - Caroline ROE/ROWE
The only extra info re Caroline ROE on NSW BMD index is that her parents are given as John, Caroline - ???.
Looking at the Bathurst Free Press for Wednesday 24 November 1897 there is a Funeral Notice for a Mrs C ROWE of Galley Swamp, from the Bathurst Hospital morgue to the C of E cemetery (it doesn't say but I assume in Bathurst). I cannot see a death for a C ROWE reg in NSW in 1897 so am wondering if this is Caroline ROE. However, whether it's the lady we are looking for is another matter. ::)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/62037662
Galley Swamp is the name of a mine in Carcoar area, apparently.
Adding - the public tree shows Richard ROWE died at Galley Swamp, buried RC section,Carcoar cemetery - surely this death is her......................................................
Judith
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Thanks Judith, your most likely right, if the were both from the same place its likely that it was her.
I will order another transcription.
mum mum
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Had a quick look at the fiche for Parish Registers, Canberra and Goulburn Anglican Diocese, which includes Braidwood and Araluen.
There was very little extra we can add so I assume they may have belonged to a different church, or weren't baptised, buried etc in the Anglican ministry. Here's what I found:
Annie Elizabeth VERNES, baptised 12 April 1863 at Braidwood.
Aaron ANSON, the elder one who arrived first in 1841 with his wife Elizabeth.
Both buried at Braidwood - Aaron 30 July 1882, Elizabeth 19 September 1888.
Judith
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Hi to this list. I have recently been doing some research on behalf of a daughter of the Edward Matthews who was born 5 December 1898 at Chiltern. He was the son of Edward Matthews and Elizabeth Ann Rowlands (if that was her real name). I have his marriage and death certificates. I have read through all ten pages of your posts on RootsChat with great interest, and have had the same problems with Elizabeth Ann Rowlands. My friend confirms that her father seemed to know little about his parents or his siblings. I am in the process of setting her up with a RootsChat account so that she can communicate directly with you all, so this post is just to confirm that the thread is still active.
Regards,
JB.
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Hi JB,
I know two of the descendants of this family who will be very interested to tralk to you and find out more about Edwards life and famiy.
I will be able to put your friend in contact with these ladies, between Rootschat and the Grand daughters I think we worked out all the various marriages of Elizabeth Annie, there were still a couple of children to catch up with and Edward descendants will be very welcome to the family.
mum mum
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Thankyou Mum Mum. The lady in question is the mother-in-law of my niece, and she has been searching for years for her Matthews relatives. She lives in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne. Although drawing a blank with Rowlands, I have researched the Matthews line back to the 1840's in Sydney. I will leave my friend to introduce herself, and I have set up a session with her for Saturday 4th August to help her get on to the list. Reminds me a bit of "Find my Family" on TV, and maybe just as good an outcome.
JB