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Research in Other Countries => South Africa => Topic started by: wildcats13 on Monday 07 November 11 13:29 GMT (UK)
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Searching for confirmation of the parents of Charles William Pakenham who was a Merchant in Grahamstown around the 1840's. He married Elizabeth Emma Jarman from Grahamstown around 1840.
I have heard a story ( not sure if true or not) that a Lieutenant Pakenham eloped with a Margaret - who was born in Scotland when he was stationed in Ireland. He is supposed to have done service in India and then sent to Grahamstown. When the Lieutenant died, the Pakenham family offered to pay for the children's education, but wouldn't have anything to do with Margaret. Margaret refused their help and opened up a shop in Grahamstown to support her children. It is possible he may have been excluded from the Pakenham family because of the elopment.
Margaret is supposed to have later married a David Murray which didn't last long and then married a William Rowland Thompson, who also was a merchant. Margaret's name for the last marriage was shown as Murray, from second marriage.
Ther may be some truth to the story, as I found various entries that showed Charles W Pakenham and William R Thompson were involved in business together with a James Black, who married Catherine Pakenham (b: 1815). Charles was also a keen racegoer and owned at one stage a stallion called Jack. There is every chance that Catherine was Charles's sister.
Hope someone can help solve the dilema.
Wildcats13
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His will and death notice for him at the Cape Town Archive. The names of the parents are normally listed on them.
Depot:KAB
Source:MOOC
Volume:6/9/130
Reference:5914
Description: Pakenham, Charles William. Death Notice
Date 1870
And his will
Depot:KAB
source:MOOC
Volume:7/1/307
Description:Pakenham. Charles William. Will
Date:1870
Bruce
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Hi there
Thomas Pakenham, Lieutenant, died Grahamstown
Wife Margaret Stone
Children:
Catherine born 1816, died 8 Sept 1876 in GHT aged 60 years, buried Old Cemetery GHT, married James Black on 3 Dec 1833 in St George's Church GHT. James born 1808 died 23 June 1885.
Charles Murray born 12 Nov 1817, baptized Dutch Reformed Church, Uitenhage.
Charles William died 10 Dec 1869 in Port Elizabeth aged 52 years, merchant, married to Elizabeth Emma who died 29 Mar 1892.
Thomas Harrison died 17 Oct 1829 in GHT, buried Old Cemetery GHT. ***In Index to Old Cemetery GHT are 2 entries - under Pakenham and also as Thomas Harrison Pakenham Thompson, died 17 Oct 1829 aged 11 years 7 months, son of Margaret & William.
I cannot find a date of death for Thomas, no gravestone listed in the Old Cemetery GHT.
See next post for more
Regards
Sandy
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Hi again
Margaret Stone married to Thomas Pakenham.
Margaret married David Murray on 17 July 1818 in Dutch Reformed Church in Uitenhage - note under David Murray: 1815 - 1820 licenses to keep a shop in GHT and sell Cape wine and beer and European wine.
Margaret married William Rowland Thompson in 1821 (his age 24). He was born in 1797 and died GHT 25 Jan 1871, merchant.
Their children:
William Rowland born 1823, Christine Emma born 1827, Henry born 1828/9, Jessie Mary Scott born 1830 & Robert Johnstone (no dob).
GHT Old Cemetery: Thompson, Margaret died 21 Aug 1838 aged 44 years wife of William.
Obituary Graham's Town Journal 23 Aug 1838: "Died, at Graham's Town, on Tuesday morning, the 21st inst., Mrs Margaret Thompson, wife of W.R. Thompson, Esq., Merchant, of that place. Deceased was one of the oldest residents on the frontier, and was no less extensively known than esteemed by all classes. For warm-hearted and active benevolence, she was a bright example to all whom Providence has blessed with the means of relieving human woe, and the poor of this town have lost in her a sympathising and zealous benefactress. In the immediate circle of her friends and family, her loss is irreparable. To a most cheerful disposition she united a kind, affectionate heart, and thus, while she wept with those who wept, she rejoiced with them who rejoiced. It was her constant aim, as it was her peculiar forte, to contribute to the happiness of all around her; hence her decease has left a blank in the social circle of her family and friends, who is no less deeply than keenly felt; and although time may soften the distress, yet her memory must ever be cherished in sad and grateful remembrance".
See next post.
Regards
Sandy
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Me again
Charles William Pakenham: Dec 1847 partner in EH Salmond & Co with GC Frames. Feb 1853 going overseas, sells furniture in GHT. 1859 a Director of Commercial Bank. 1862 living Pearson Street Port Elizabeth, house of RH Black. Jun 1861 CWP of Black & Co resigns seat, Commercial Bank, Robert H Black succeeds him. 1874 widow Elizabeth Emma at Frances Place, Bird Street, Port Elizabeth.
Charles was married to Elizabeth Emma. Emma died 29 March 1892 at Zaag Kuilen, Field Cornetcy Gamtoos River, the residence of son in law T P Bean.
Children:
Jessie Margaret
Charles William
Robert Thompson died 25 Aug 1897 aged 53 years, died at the home of Willard Bean.
George Henry died 19 Feb 1871 at Platberg Mountain, Orange Free State, died taking a short cut in the dark, fell from a krans [cliff].
Edith Emma married Thomas Pullen Bean in St Mary's Church, Port Elizabeth on 15 July 1874.
And one more post
Sandy
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Last one:
James Black born 1808 in Haddington, Scotland, died GHT 23 June 1885 aged 77 years, buried Old Cemetery GHT, merchant.
Partner in WR Thompson & Co till WRT died, then Black, Darvall & Co till Darvall returned to England. Black & Co with his son in law JB Brown. 1853 was living in Selwyn Castle.
Son of Rev Benoni & Agnes, brother of Robert Henry and John E.
Married to Catherine Pakenham
Children:
Margaret born 29 Sept 1834 in GHT, baptized St George's Church, GHT, died in infancy, buried Old Cemetery, GHT
Agnes, born 8 Nov 1835 in GHT, baptised St George's Church, GHT
John, died in infancy, buried Old Cemetery GHT
James Rowland, born 1844, died 28 Aug 1891 aged 47 years near Hankey, buried Old Cemetery, GHT
Catherine, died in infancy, buried Old Cemetery, GHT
John Ebenezer, born 1853, baptized St George's Church GHT, died 22 Oct 1873 aged 20 years 3 days, buried Old Cemetery GHT.
Enjoy
Regards
Sandy
PS I have not checked for the gravestones on line but you can try eGSSA Library - gravestones in South Africa - Eastern Cape - Grahamstown - maybe some of the stones are still there & have been photographed?
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Thank you to everyone for your great help in mostly saving this dilema. I just need to try and see which Pakenham clad in Ireland that the Lieutenant came from.
Wildcats13
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Hi Sandy,
I have just received a copy of the Death Certificate for Charles William Pakenham, and on it indicates that the mother's name appears to be Margaret Sloan, not Stone (see attached copy). Can you cross check your details to be sure we are talking about the same woman. I believe we are, as all the other facts appear to fall into place and make sense.
Regartds,
Wildcats13
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Hi there
A death notice completed by a family member is always the most reliable. The info I found was from a typed sheet so I assume that the original record probably was difficult to read and that's why it was deciphered as Stone.
Regards
Sandy
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Hi
Do any of you researching Parkenham, have any details for any of the William Rowland's mentioned. Especially William Rowland Thompson.
I am searching for a William Ro/wland Thompson that was married to Henrietta Brass. I am one of his great grandchildren.
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
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Hi,
Do you have any details, dates, location for YOUR W R Thompson. I have some details that may assist, but there are a few William Rowland Thompson's. Let me know.
Regards,
Wildcats13
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This is what I have on my W R T.
Birth about 1823 ? Scotland?
Married Henrietta Brass about 1844 in Cape Colony South Africa, daughter of Henry and Rachael Brass
Henrietta was born 1827 she died 26/07/1906 in South Africa
their children:
William Ro/wland Thompson
Rosa Christina Thompson
Susanna Thompson
Henry William Thompson
I have lots of information from here on, just trying to find where William and Henrietta hail from.
Any help much appreciated.
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Hi Nooran,
Have checked our details and the year 1823 does not gel with the birth of WRT the second or WRT the third. Have found the following link that might help as the wife's name is Henrietta, but again timing not right if you are correct.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SOUTH-AFRICA-EASTERN-CAPE/2010-01/1263393371
There is also an article written by Joyce Newton Thompson that covers the life of our WRT, see pages 139-164. If you send me a personal message with your email address, I will attach the PDF copy that I have.
According to the article, WRT the second, was likely born in Cape Town either late 1829 or 1830, and in 1843 married Miss Anne Back, whose uncle was Sir George Back, the English Artic explorer, and from memory, WRT the third never married.
Regards,
Wildcats13
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Hi Wildcats13
Thank you for the reply and the link.
The link is correct and does pertain to WRT married to Jacomina. I am looking for his father married to Henrietta nee Brass. All I know is that he was from Scotland but not how or when he arrived in South Africa or where in Scotland he came from and his family there. Also Henrietta Hendrina Brass, his wife, daughter of Henry and Rachael Brass. Looking for her family as well.
The dates I have could be wrong.
I think your William Roland born 1797 could be the one and may have married Henrietta after Margaret's death??
Regards
Nooran
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Hi Nooran,
According to the article by Joyce Newton Thompson,WRT was devistated when Margaret died and there was no indication that he married again. Not everything is correct in the report, especially some birth dates, but well worth a read. Send me your email via personal message if you want a copy.
Regards.
Wildcats13
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There are 4 Pakenhams buried on our farm Saagkuilen Portion 3 at Patensie, Eastern Cape, South Africa. They are Elizabeth Emma, Jessie Margaret, Charles William and Edith Emma together with James Black. Also TP Bean husband of Edith Emma and several other Beans, a Damant, a Kirby and a Paterson. Robert Thompson Pakenham is buried at nearby Hankey.
Regards
Guy Reid
I have removed contact details to prevent abuse, use the message facility (PM) once you have made 3 more posts
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Hi Guy,
Welcome to Rootschat:) Thank you so much for the above info, I am sure it will be of use. Have you submitted these grave details, and any others, to Eggsa to include in their cemetery CD that they produce each year.
We remove contact details as these posts are available to all on the web. Once you have posted 2 more posts you can send a PM to the above person and exchange details that way.
Thanks
Ruth
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Hi all
This is an important thread and we should keep it going.
I am one of Nooran's cousins in NZ.
We have had DNA tests done by two Thompsons in South Africa. One is a direct descendant of William Rowland Thompson and Margaret Murray (nee Pakenham born Sloan). The other is a descendant of Henrietta Brass who is THOUGHT to have had a union with this same William Rowland Thompson. The paternal Y-DNA is an exact match, lending support to the theory that these two branches are linked historically.
More in my next post.
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This is my second post.
I would make a plea to Guy to please give some more info (in fact all the info please) on the gravestones at your farm in Patensie. Every tidbit. This is really critical information to the Pakenham and Thompson saga.
We have information that James Black chr 22/8/1808 Haddington, Scotland (son of Rev Benoni Black chr 6/6/1762 Jedburgh, Scotland and Agnes Henderson b 11/5/1769 Jedburgh) had a sister called Katherine Packenham Black b13/7/1810 Haddington. And here's the kicker: his wife was called Catherine Pakenham b14/2/1816 Cape Town, the daughter of Thomas Pakenham b unknown and Margaret Sloan b1794 Glasgow, Scotland.
I have no idea why James Black's sister apparently had a middle name of "Packenham", unless the people who have generated these wikitrees on the Black family online have made some grievous errors in their research.
More in my next post. Hopefully the rootschat system engine will allow me to contact other members on this thread after my third post. I could talk all day about Pakenham, Black, Thompson in South Africa ...
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This is my third post.
I would like to pose a few questions here, regarding the name Rowland.
1. How did the son of James Black and Catherine Pakenham get the name JAMES ROWLAND BLACK? We know that William Rowland Thompson was the third and final husband of Margaret Sloan. But he had no blood relationship that we are aware of with James Rowland Black. So how did this James get the middle name of ROWLAND? I have researched the ancestry of James Black as far as I can. His father was Rev Benoni Black 1762-1828 and mother was Agnes Henderson 1769-1822. Benoni's parents were William Black and Janet Scott. Agnes' father was John Henderson but the mother is unknown, possibly Agnes Turnbull. My (very tenuous) theory is that William Rowland Thompson may have been either related in blood to either Thomas Pakenham or to Margaret Sloan, for there to be a grandson with the middle name of Rowland.
2. The bizarreness continues. There is a record of a Henry Rowland Brown b 13/6/1878 and d1963 Port Elizabeth, son of James Benoni Black Brown b1839 Haddington d15/11/1912 Bournemouth, England and Jessie Marjorie Black b16/6/1847 d13/11/1926. How did he get his middle name of ROWLAND? James and Jessie were first cousins, married 1/7/1871 Trinity Presbyterian Church, Grahamstown. James' parents were Henry Duncan Brown b1/6/1810 Haddington d15/8/1861 Haddington and Katherine Packenham Black (sister of James Black) b13/7/1810 Haddington d21/9/1882 Bloemfontein. Jessie's parents were James Black (brother of Katherine Packenham Black) and Catherine Pakenham. Henry Rowland Brown married Mary Louise Violet Northcroft and had a son and a daughter who also retained the middle name of ROWLAND, viz James Lennox Rowland Brown and Erua Rowland Brown.
I know it is all very confusing with the tree of Blacks, Browns, Packenhams and Pakenhams ...
Sometimes it helps to know the witnesses to the baptisms of these individuals like James Rowland Brown who died in Hankey on 28/8/1891, and Henry Rowland Brown b13.6.1878 to give a clue as to why this name of Rowland might be so important.
I've tried to find the Rowland family in Scotland and Ireland and so far have drawn a blank. In addition, because we know that Thomas Pakenham and Margaret Sloan's son was Thomas Harrison Pakenham, I've also tried to find the Harrison family in Ireland and also drawn a blank. There is one link between the Pakenhams and the Harrisons but that is much later, in the 1860's from memory - something like "Emily Blanche Harrison".
Someone please help?
Regards
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Hello, Wildcats.Have seen several of your posts re this subject and thought this might help;the Pakenham Village website has a pdf download for the full Pakenham family tree from 1100AD (all 2.5metres of it!)which might help.I am also on the trail of Grahamstown linked Scanlens and Pakenhams and think Thomas Pakenham 3rd son of George(Edward)1717-1768 might be an option.Another name that keeps catching my eye is William Pakenham 1782-1811(son of Edward Michael ,2nd Lord Longford, who was a naval cadet from age 13 and travelled to India among other places, he drowned off Donegal when his ship HMS Saldanah sunk (but then unless the fact that your Pakenham definitely died in Grahamstown it might be possible.)I'm not sure if any of this will help but hope so.PS: if you have found anything new in the interim I'd be most interested to hear. ???PPS:The Albany Museum in Grahamstown has a genealogist who has helped me in the past (for a fee of course)
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Sorry for the delay in replying but only recently returned home from hospital. I will pass this information onto my sister-in-law who is sorting out her family ancestors, and thanks for your input.
Wildcats13
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Apologies for a query on a tangent ... my question is in relation to the family names buried.
(Please point me to the right direction, If I've come to the wrong place.) ;)
"Pakenhams buried on our farm Saagkuilen Portion 3 at Patensie, Eastern Cape, South Africa. ... other Beans, a Damant, a Kirby and a Paterson. Robert Thompson Pakenham is buried at nearby Hankey"
KIRBY is the name I'm most interested in, as I'd found in the "South African Military History Society Easter Cape Branch Newsletter No.83 August 2011" http://samilitaryhistory.org/11/p11augne.html (http://samilitaryhistory.org/11/p11augne.html)
Lt Col Walter Houx Kirby, MC, who was born in San Diego, California. His family settled in Hankey during 1898, where his father was secretary to the mission station. In 1906, Walter left home and found his way to Kimberley
I've been able to find very little on Edward Williams Kirby, nor his wife Emmaline (Emma) nee. Smith. 3 of their children were born in the USA: Walter, Harold (died. WW1) and Bruce - of which I've sourced Marriage and Death/Probate records for these. Perhaps the KIRBY located in Saagkuilen Portion 3 at Patensie, belongs to my research?
The direct family connection I'm seeking is that of "Hector Durbrow 'Tony' Kirby", with a Death Record, but no details of family. He was b. 26 Apr 1904 • Hankey, and d. 30 MAY 1973 • Riverside, Bulawayo. His granddaughter understands he was married twice - I only have the record of his second marriage.
Long Shot, but any information is greatly appreciated.
Kind regards
Meg.
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Hi Meg,
I have found more details about Hector's family from 2nd marriage.
Susan Margaret Kirby first marriage was to Michael Grant. Could find no children. Second marriage was to Daniel Christoffel Delport. Children were (1) Kathryn Megan Delport who married Hamish McRae. (2) Joslene Helen Delport.
Penelope Rose Kirby's first marriage was to Barry David Tratt who was born in 1955 & died in 1985 in Durban KwaZulu, Natal. South Africa (30 years). Children were Dawn Lisa Tratt born in Durban, who married Yaakov Bokay.
Penelope's second marriage was to Daniel Lester Graham Nel. No other details.
Wildcats
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Thanks Wildcats. More great info.
Yes, this is the family I'm assisting with the research on.
I don't suppose there is any further details on Edward William(s) Kirby and Emmaline Kirby?
Edward was the father of 3 known children, born in the USA: Walter, Harold (died. WW1) and Bruce - of which I've sourced Marriage and Death/Probate records for these. Also a query regarding the KIRBY located in Saagkuilen Portion 3 at Patensie, and if they too belong to my research?
Hector Durbrow Kirby's second marriage was to Rosemary Margaret Halse, and this family has been extensively researched by others. :)
Now to my Other dead-end -
Susan Margaret Kirby is currently married to Michael Grant, with no children.
Susan's first was to Daniel Christoffel Delport. Their Children are (1) Kathryn Megan Delport married to Hamish McRae, and (2) Joelene Helen Delport (the friend I'm doing the research for).
I was able to find Death record for Daniel Christoffel Delport on https://www.identitynumber.org/research/ (https://www.identitynumber.org/research/) - direct record https://www.identitynumber.org/research/death-records-results.php?id=4290318 (https://www.identitynumber.org/research/death-records-results.php?id=4290318).
Unfortunately I don't have a membership, and I'm unable to find any further information. Joelene believes he died 23 Aug 1993 in Pietermaritzburg, and possibly an Uncle 'Richard' Delport, who may have died in Durban. She believes there is also a sister - Delyse, and the name James Erasmus, or to that effect.
Sorry to be so ambiguous - but any information would be received graciously! :) :)
Thanks again,
Meg
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Hi there, My name is Ken Corder and I am married to Sandra Anne (nee Thompson) the daughter of William Rowland Thompson who had the DNA test that you arranged some years back. Speaking to Rowland it seems he never received the results himself in electronic format. Is there something you are able to share.
I have the Thompson Family Tree on Ancestry.UK
Thank you
Ken