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Research in Other Countries => Immigrants & Emigrants - General => Topic started by: Mouchoir on Saturday 05 November 11 08:43 GMT (UK)
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Hi
Further to my last post about the John Lewis Fridenry (coffee roaster) and his daughter Charlotte Louisa Lewis Fridenry, I've tracked down another descendant of Charlotte, but am still at a dead end. We both seem to have come to the conclusion the family could be Jewish (Fridenry / Freidenreich/Fradjenraj) and have been puzzled that on Jewish websites this name is equivalent to 'Wertheimer'. I've also read that the use of 'Lewis' could be an anglicised version of a Jewish name. How sure can we be? And if names were adopted on arrival in this country, how can I pursue this? John seems to have appeared from nowhere and I can also find no record of his death. Any suggestions welcome! I'd like to know - I WANT them to be Jewish, but don't know if I am assuming too much.
Thanks
Maddie
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My understanding is that Lewis is an Anglicized style of Levi.
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Thank you! :) So I might be right....Any further advice would be welcome.
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Suggest you google Jewish Family History and approach the site you think will be most useful to you.
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Hello Maddie,
I'm lucky enough to have a lot of Jewish ancestry. Researching this ancestry has been fascinating.
Unfortunately, I can't give you a definitive answer to your question.
Lewis was the common Anglicised form of the Yiddish nickname ליב = Leyb or Leib (German spelling) pronounced libe . This name is the Yiddish word for lion and draws on Jacob's description of his son, Judah (Yehuda), as a lion.
In the early years of the 19th century, many German Jews with the Yiddish name Leib were known as Levi / Levy to the wider non-Jewish population. The best known example was Levi Strauss. BTW, the Hebrew and German forms of the name rhyme with heavy.
Justin
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Justin, As a brief aside (or highjack) to the thread for a minute do you know whether the surname Ayres (and variants) has any Jewish association? I understand it is Gypsy in origin, and yet an ancestor is buried at Lode Cambs with a Star of David toimbstone. Thanks.
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Thanks Justin! :) That's great. It may sound silly, but I SO want to have Jewish ancestors.
It is driving me mad - I seem to have spent ages looking on ancestry and on the JGSGB and have found nothing. It is as though John Lewis (Levy?) Fridenry has been erased from history!
RedRoger - I did try and get in touch with someone on a Jewish Genealogy site, but to no great avail - they are just volunteers and whilst very helpful can only offer general advice (e.g. databases to search), most of which I've already tried. I think it is fairly obvious that Charlotte Louisa Lewis' husband was not Jewish, but that doesn't mean that her family weren't. John Lewis Fridenry as I've said though just seems to be a missing link!
Thanks both anyway. If anyone else has any thoughts, I'd be very grateful.
Very best wishes
Maddie
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Still no further progress with any of this, though I've spent hours looking and have signed up for premium Ancestry membership. I just can't understand why I can find no mention of John Lewis Fridenry, aside from on his daughter's marriage certificate. I'd hoped there might be some kind of immigration record / indication of this birthplace which might give further clues. My main problem is the number of different ways Fridenry could be spelt (Freidenreich etc.) and the fact that John Lewis is probably an anglicised adoption. Anyone got any further suggestions as to places I could try looking? :)
Best wishes
Maddie
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Looking back on this thread it is not clear to me what the time period is. Have you tried to find John Lewis Fridenry on any of the available censuses? The most recent of course being 1911. If he first appears on say the 1901, but his daughter was born in (say) 1903) then you know he was an adult in 1901. Look who else was in the house, and try to find them in the previous census, he might just have been not recorded for any of several reasons.Once you have exhausted this line of enquiry go back to the original census entry and search for the family at that address in previous copies of a local directory e.g. Kelly's.
Hopefully this will give you more to look at, but I hope you are not going to say the marriage took place in 1933 :(
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Thanks. No the problem really is that it is quite early - his daughter married in 1843, but I can't find any of the family in the 1841 census - she first appears in 1851 after her marriage to John Dunbar Page Howes. It is as if nothing exists prior to this, though as she was born in Mile End circa 1822, she and her father must have been somewhere in 1841. There is someone on ancestry with relatives from the same sort of time with a similar name (Peter and his daughter Mary Ann )Lewis Fridewick, but they have not been able find out much either, though we suspect a connection. I wonder if Lewis if an anglicised version of Levy, maybe John wasn't his original name either? I've tried all kinds of spellings and wild card searches and find it odd that neither John nor Charlotte can be found in 1841.
Thank you for your advice though - it is certainly something I'll try with a few other mystery relatives. So if people were away, might they have eluded the census altogether?
Very best wishes
Maddie :)
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Maddie, The rules for the early censuses clearly suggest that the entire thing was a work in progress. Basically if you were way from home for the night travelling, you were omitted.They could have been abroard of course when the census was taken.
I believe that things get more complex in that not only can Lewis be an Anglised version of Levy, it can also be an anglised version of Llewellyn. If there is a Jewish connection then have you tried Jonathan for John?
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Hi!
Still working away at this conundrum to no avail. In another thread about these same ancestors I was given a reference to the street in the census (an RG number). I've tried putting this into the 1841 census bit on ancestry to no avail (it comes up as somewhere totally different, like Nottingham, not Bridge Street Hackney). Can anyone tell me what all the numbers correspond to in a census reference as it may just be that I'm keying in the info into the wrong boxes.
I tried to pursue the family and even traced the witnesses at John Lewis Fridenry's daughter's wedding (Samuel and Esther Walker), hoping they might have been neighbours, but no luck there.
If anyone can help further, please let me know. I'd still like to be able to say for sure if I had Jewish ancestors.
Best wishes
Maddie :)
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Lewis was also an anglicised version of Louis which was also a "so-called" English version of Ludwig.
One of my relations, Friedrich Ludwig Pfister called himself Louis Pfister in England, although he originated from Künzelsau in Germany and was Lutheran.
My own grandfather was called Christian Louis Pfisterer and was born in England. On being taken back to Kocherstetten in Baden-Württemberg in Germany, to be baptised, the name "Louis" was "crossed through" and he was baptised Christian Pfisterer.
"Louis" often replaced Ludwig and Lewis often replaced Louis regardless of religion.
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Thanks! I'll try some searches using Louis and Ludwig and see if this helps. At least the general consensus seems to be that they were German - that's progress. I've tried so many variants of name and spelling in the 1841 census I am at a loss for what to do next to get any further with this. I don't want to give up, but wonder if I am ever going to get a definitive answer.
I really appreciate all your help.
Maddie
:)
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This is just a hunch but I have seen Württemberg in Germany often written "bury" instead of "berg".
Her surname could be Friedenberg. There seem to be a number living in and around London. I couldn't find Charlotte Louisa though.
I see you have a tree on Ancestry and will keep you in mind when doing my own searches.
BTW, Clara Agnes Howes, born 1862 married Alfred Daniel Dodd on 6.1.1880, Tower Hamlets. They seem to have had a number of children.
It's a tedious way to search but sometimes looking up the ancestors' partners for Family Trees, etc. can help.
Have I missed something? Is it definite that Charlotte Louisa was born in England?
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Hi Maddie
I'm going to post a link to your previous thread so that Rootschatters can see the background material there:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,561644.0.html
Anna :)
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Thank you Swiss Gill and Anna! Still working on this. I have been trying lots of variant spellings and really wildcard searches. Charlotte was definitely born in England, but is still rather elusive prior to her marriage in 1843.
I may have found John Lewis Fridenry's death just now though - there is a John Lewis Friday's burial listed on June 22nd 1821 - I found this on the London records under the Westminster St. John the Evangelist area - approx birth 1794. I can't be sure, but this is the biggest breakthrough in a while. Not that it tells us where he was born or if he was Jewish.
Thanks to everyone who has commented and helped so far.
Maddie
:)
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Still puzzling over this. I've spent hours on ancestry and have made no progress. I just can't find Charlotte or her father in the 1841 census or in any early records. Does the fact that "Lewis" was given as a name to Charlotte (as well as one of her sons) suggest that it is more likely to be from Levy than Ludwig?
I've been thinking of paying for an hour or two of research, but the problem is knowing where to go. I see Hackney archive expect you to be really specific and it is hard to know if the London Metropolitan archive would have anything. The many variants of spelling make this something of a challenge. I feel something of a failure as I work in a library and archive and help other people with family history, yet am so stuck with my own.
If anyone has any further thoughts I'd be very grateful. Much as I want to think they are German and Jewish, I'd rather know for sure.
Best wishes
Maddie
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Still no further forward with this ???
My most recent line of enquiry was to try to find John Dunbar Page Howes prior to his marriage to Charlotte Louisa Lewis Fridenry in 1843, on the offchance that he lived near to Charlotte and her father, coffee roaster John Fridenry. Oddly though, I can't find him in the 1841 census either! He was born around 1809 and was a painter. His father, also John, was a gardener.
Any advice would be much appreciated as I seem to be spending hours and getting no nearer. I did find someone on a google search who listed the surname Fridenry as a research interest, their email bounced back, so I've written a letter but I fear they may have moved.
Thank you!
Maddie
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1841 HO107 680 Book 3 / Folio 12 / Page 16
has a Charlotte Fridy 22 yrs in St Marylebone district
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Thanks for this - I really appreciate you searching. I don't think this can be the one though as this is a Charlotte K. Fr... and she appears in later census returns under this same spelling / middle initial - my Charlotte appears from 1851 onwards as the wife of John Dunbar Page Howes.
It is a mystery!
Thanks for taking the time.
Maddie :)
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On a visit to a Manchester Synagogue which is now a Jewish museum I asked a volunteer a question about how I could trace a baby girl born the same time as me and after my name Viktoria came,they explained that the name really is carried down the mother`s line as there is never any doubt as to who a child`s mother is but the father is not always so certain.
I gathered --perhaps mistakenly-- that surnames as such down the male line were not like that for Jewish people.
Please correct me if I am wrong but the lovely lady who gave the above explanation was Jewish and I naturally felt she knew how things differed from our patronymic system ( have I the correct spelling?)I`m wondering if this is perhapd why your relative is so elusive .
viktoria
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Viktoria; Are you referring to a given name or a surname? I ask because there is a tradition in my family of the oldest girl in each generation having the name Melinda as one of here given names. When our daughter was born and named I was not aware of the tradition, and our daughter was duly named, but not Melinda. I was in the dog house for the next 36 years!
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Well I was trying to find the surname, I knew the baby born at the same time as me was Viktoria and the family were Jewish but the newspaper cutting with the details had been lost, possibly in the blitz on M/C Dec 1940. We were born May 1937 and there was to be a re-union when we were 21 Although my parents were still at the same address we heard nothing and the surname could not be recalled. It was difficult because a trust fund had been set up so I did not want the other family to think that was my reason for wanting to make contact almost 50 years later. I had traced one name with a baby girl Viktoria ,through FreeB.M.D, born at the same time and I thought the guides at the Synagogue may be able to help.That`s when the explanation came.
I`m 75 now so she may be dead, or gone to Israel. They were German Jews and the father had a business in Germany as well as here so that would all have been lost and he may not have been able to keep the trust fund.That does not bother me in the slightest. They may have returned for reasons of business and perished that does bother me greatly. I feel a part of me is missing, sillyI know but the father visited my Mum when I was two days old and asked that I be also named Viktoria(German spelling) like his little girl .Mum had chosen my frst name but agreed that it could be my second name.I would so like to have met her. Too late now I strongly suspect. Viktoria.
P.S for form filling in etc when I say "with a k" it is usually written Vicktoria!!!!!
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Thank you Viktoria. I didn't know that. I think I'll try to find out more about Jewish naming etc. to see if there are any other ways to pursue this. The fact I'm having so many problems might lend weight to the idea that they are Jewish immigrants.
It's so sad that you have not been able to meet up with this other Viktoria. I wonder if anyone has any ideas of places you could search. Have you been on JewishGen? I realise it will be difficult with no surname to search for, but there might be sites with message boards. Alternatively I always find myself reading that section in the Daily Mail (on Saturdays I think), where they have people writing in, trying to track down lost friends/family - it surprises me sometimes the connections they make.
I really hope you do find her.
p.s. How nice to have an unusual name (though getting it misspelt must get annoying!). My name is Madeleine and gets mangled in all sorts of ways (Madlen being the worst!!)
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Thanks Mouchoir, I realise the baby would have to be registered in the father`s name in the legal birth register and on her birth cert but I was asking the lady at the museum if they( the Jewish community) had a record of births and that is when she said for their records(Jewish) the baby would be in the mother`s name.
I have done what you suggested --in the Manchester Evening News but no reply.
The surname of the Viktoria I found sounds Jewish but I can`t disclose it as whoever that is may still be living .
Thanks for your help everyone. Viktoria.
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I see you have also got Rayner on your list of names.This can also be jewish.Try googling it.Best of luck with your searches.
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Hi Mouchoir
I regret to inform you that I have that awful spelling !!! ;D
I was told by my parents that it is the Welsh spelling.
Good luck with your searches
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:-\somehow your reply to mouchoir got to me.I was referring to the surname Rayner which i believe can be Jewish
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Re naming,
Here, in the US, most Jews don't name a child after a living relative. And often, if they want to name a new child after a deceased relative, they just use the first initial, so if you want to name your daughter after your grandmother Victoria, you might name her Valerie.
which isn't much help in your search, and I don't know if that is the same way in Germany and the UK.
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"We both seem to have come to the conclusion the family could be Jewish (Fridenry / Freidenreich/Fradjenraj) and have been puzzled that on Jewish websites this name is equivalent to 'Wertheimer'."
the meaning of the german jewish name Freudenreich and Wertheimer is very different. both is not the same. why do you think so?
Freuden = joys
reich = rich
Wert = value, worth
heimer about Heim = home
as exampel, to find in list of Jews from former Austrian-Hungarian crownland Galicia(now Poland and Ukraine):
Wertheimer: http://www.jewishgen.org/Galicia/surdex/si_wa.htm
similar Freudheim/Freudenheim (joys-home): http://www.jewishgen.org/Galicia/surdex/si_fp.htm
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:) Interesting! Thanks for this.
Since the last posts, I've continued to search for my ancestors. No luck in the 1841 census using the Bridge Street, Hackney address from which Charlotte Louisa Lewis Fridenry and John Dunbar Page HOwes married in 1843. I trawled through page by page.
Still no luck finding John, Charlotte, or either of their fathers pre this date. Nor any luck with the similar sounding Peter Lewis Fridenrick and his daughter Mary Ann.
I will keep trying and appreciate the suggestions I've received on here.