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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: DozyDora on Friday 05 August 11 11:39 BST (UK)
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I am still trying to find the birth record of James Edward Morgan born cira 1884/85
James Edward Morgan is shown as son of Edward Morgan (coal porter, not brewer's servant) and Harriet (nee Kalaher). James is shown as Edward aged 6 in the 1891 Census (living at but doesn't show in the 1901 or 1911 Census. He is stated to have been born in St Pancras but I have ordered several certificates of either James Edward Morgan, Edward James Morgan and either name on their own in various parts of London and all of them turn out to be wrong. I have access to the LMA and have looked for illegimate births under Kalaher and Morgan and found a few under Kalaher but not Harriet, but one of her sisters. There is no christening for him either ...
... Yet 9 years later Harriet and Edward go on to have 3 more sons:
Thomas George Morgan born 2 Feb 1893, Christened 6 March 1893.
William Morgan born 19 Aug 1895, christened in a private baptism on 17 Jan 1896 and his death record is shown in Mar 1896, so he could have died shortly after he was christened.
Henry Joseph Morgan (my partner’s grandfather) born 13 April 1897, christened on 19 May 1897.
As you will note all 3 sons were christened yet there are no birth or christening records for James Edward Morgan, so why would Harriet and Edward meticulously christen 3 of their children and not James Edward Morgan? Also why the 9 year gap, given that there was no family planning in those days? Was one of them in prison or was James somebody else’s illegimate child?
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When did Edward and Harriet marry? Was it before or after edward's birth?
I must admit I cant see the marriage.
SO where did Harriet's maiden name come from?
Could she have been married before, and thus Edward's birth and her marriage to Mr M be under her first husband's surname?
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I cannot find a marriage for Harriet Kalaher to Edward Morgan.
Harriet is one of 11 children of John Kalaher and Julia Prince, who married on 23.09.1861:
Julia Eliza Kalaher (01.02.1855)
John Kalaher (22.03.1858)
William Kalaher (15.02.1861)
Anne Kalaher (20.01.1862)
Louisa Kalaher (09.09.1893)
Thomas Kalaher (24.06.1865)
Harriet Kalaher (09.08.1867)
Mary Kalaher (Dec 1869) - have not found a baptism record for her
Edward (Mar 1872) - again no baptism record found
Julia Kalaher (1874) - no birth or baptism record found, only Census's
Florence Kalaher (1877) - again no birth or baptism record found, only Census's
Their firstborn Julia Eliza married Charles Henry Lock and had 16 children, the 3rd of which was James Edward Lock. I ordered his birth certificate in case he was the James Edward I was looking for but he was the son of Julia and Charles.
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So how do you know that the Harriett Morgan with Edward as his wife on the 1891 census, was the same person as Harriet Kalahar?
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I have a copy of their son Henry Joseph Morgan's birth certificate which states that her maiden name was Kalaher.
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Oh I see what you are getting at!! All I know is my partner's Dad Edward William Morgan, who is one of Henry Joseph Morgan's sons has a letter written by James Edward Morgan from Shanghai (he was Chief Inspector, Public Works Department, Shanghai Municipal Council) saying how glad he was to have met Henry at their uncle George's house because he never knew he had a brother! I don't have the letter to hand but I do have others written by him and they were written cira 1930's.
In a letter dated 28.03.1932 he states:
"Dear James I wonder if you could spare the time and call at Somerset House and look up the Register of Births and let me know the exact year and date I was born in. I would like you to try and get me a duplicate copy of my Birth Certificate, if possible, because I will have to produce it before I can leave the Municipal Council on a pension. If you should manage please don’t forget and Register the letter, if not please don’t forget to send year and date when I was born as I am a little mixed up – been too long out here. When you write, please let me know what expenses you have to go to and I will forward with return mail.
Well James, old boy, there is not much more to say, except we have had a week quietness around the fighting line as both parties, Chinese and Japanese are holding meeting at the British Consulate to try and fix up peace times, so far no result but we are all in hopes they will end the meetings in peace. Nearly all the houses around the Settlement are blown to pieces, also Railway Stations and the Forts at Woosung, the entrance to the River and to Shanghai, a few houses in the Northern part of the Settlement where the Japanese troops were allotted to look after are damaged either by fire or shell, including my house.
Well I must close now with the very best of wishes and kind regards to you and your Good Wife and Nellie. So cheerio and best of luck.
Please try and get me the copy mentioned, if not I will have to write after I receive your answer to this. Cheerio.
I remain Yours Sincerely Brother Edward"
The family did try and get a copy of his birth certificate and my partner’s Dad still has a copy of the application, but they stated that Harriet’s maiden name was Calier, not Kalaher.
Although Henry was christened Henry Joseph, when James Edward died in 1948 he left the residue of his estate to his brother Henry James Morgan in his Will, so we think this is why he called him James.
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It does seem a real muddle!
IF this letter is from Edward (who you say was known as James) then it is strange that the brother Henry Joseph was also known as James.
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Have you got the family in 1901?
I cant see them anywhere!
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No, this is the trouble - there doesn't seem to be any trace of any of the family after that 1891 Census. I have records of all the LMA baptisms except James's, which states that their father's profession is a coal porter, a position he held from the age of 17 when he is shown visting as brother-in-law at 10 Seymour Mews in the 1881 Census, and his death certificate also lists him as a coal porter, yet he just disappears. He is also listed as being a coal porter on Henry and Ellen's marriage certificate.
I have found a Harriet Morgan stated to be single, but born in Kensington, not St Giles, working as a domestic nurse in both the 1901 and 1911 Census, but our Harriet Morgan abandoned her children and left Henry Joseph Morgan on somebody's doorstep, so would someone as calous as that then go on to be a domestic nurse?
I realise now that in the 1891 Census where Edward Morgan is stated to be son, he may be son to Edward Morgan - coal porter, but not necessarily Harriet's son because they only state the relationship to the Head of a family in the Census. So maybe I need to look for a marriage of Edward Morgan - coal porter before he got together with Harriet.
There is a 1901 Census where a James Morgan, born in Greenwich, London, in 1885 is in St Joseph and St Anne's Orphanage in Farnborough and is a shoemaker (RG 13/692), and I've found Thomas George Morgan in another orphanage but I cannot be sure of these.
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It does seem a real muddle!
IF this letter is from Edward (who you say was known as James) then it is strange that the brother Henry Joseph was also known as James.
James Edward Morgan thought Henry's second name was James, not Joseph, and he even left his estate to Henry James Morgan.
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Oh I see what you are getting at!! All I know is my partner's Dad Edward William Morgan, who is one of Henry Joseph Morgan's sons has a letter written by James Edward Morgan from Shanghai (he was Chief Inspector, Public Works Department, Shanghai Municipal Council) saying how glad he was to have met Henry at their uncle George's house because he never knew he had a brother! I don't have the letter to hand but I do have others written by him and they were written cira 1930's.
In a letter dated 28.03.1932 he states:
"Dear James I wonder if you could spare the time and call at Somerset House and look up the Register of Births and let me know the exact year and date I was born in. I would like you to try and get me a duplicate copy of my Birth Certificate, if possible, because I will have to produce it before I can leave the Municipal Council on a pension. If you should manage please don’t forget and Register the letter, if not please don’t forget to send year and date when I was born as I am a little mixed up – been too long out here. When you write, please let me know what expenses you have to go to and I will forward with return mail.
Well James, old boy, there is not much more to say, except we have had a week quietness around the fighting line as both parties, Chinese and Japanese are holding meeting at the British Consulate to try and fix up peace times, so far no result but we are all in hopes they will end the meetings in peace. Nearly all the houses around the Settlement are blown to pieces, also Railway Stations and the Forts at Woosung, the entrance to the River and to Shanghai, a few houses in the Northern part of the Settlement where the Japanese troops were allotted to look after are damaged either by fire or shell, including my house.
Well I must close now with the very best of wishes and kind regards to you and your Good Wife and Nellie. So cheerio and best of luck.
Please try and get me the copy mentioned, if not I will have to write after I receive your answer to this. Cheerio.
I remain Yours Sincerely Brother Edward"
The family did try and get a copy of his birth certificate and my partner’s Dad still has a copy of the application, but they stated that Harriet’s maiden name was Calier, not Kalaher.
Although Henry was christened Henry Joseph, when James Edward died in 1948 he left the residue of his estate to his brother Henry James Morgan in his Will, so we think this is why he called him James.
I went to TNA yesterday to continue my research of the pension claims against the Shanghai Municipal Council. I was very successful and managed to find James’s entries, which I have taken photographs off (about 20 pages) and these will arrive in my Inbox in a day or so.
James didn’t have a Birth Certificate but overcame this by getting someone who knew him to sign a “Declaration of Existence” form made by the Shanghai Municipal Council. However, I also found an earlier pension claim made by him and the records have a certified copy of the details of his passport issued in Shanghai in 1935 (pre-photocopiers) and it states his date of birth as being 13th February 1880! This cannot be so, or else Harriet Morgan nee Kalaher is not his mother, because Harriet was born in 1867 and this would make her just 12 when she became pregnant. This would also put a 13 year gap between James and his next brother Thomas, when there was no birth control!!
So my thinking is he probably made this date up – said he had lost his birth certificate and passport during the war, not knowing it would throw a spanner in the works. I have looked at births for 1880 and 1879 and there is nothing conclusive.
What do you think?
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I was confused by this, as it seems to be a follow-on from another thread? ???
I think this is the previous thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,547832.0.html
Ignore this - threads were merged while I was posting!! ;D
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A birth date of Feb 1880 would be consistent with:
Passenger list of the Kashgar dep London 25 January 1925. Passenger James Morgan, 44, for Shanghai, insp public works. (Address The Lawn, Shepherds Bush)
Passenger list of the Malwa dep London 7 August 1930. Passenger James Edward Morgan for Shanghai, works inspector, aged 50. (6 Kildare Terrace W2 - which seems to have been a boarding house). There is also a James Morgan 51 chief inspector, Shanghai, of the same address on the passenger list of the Morea on 4 September 1930 but that is (struck through)
Passenger list of the Strathmore arr london from Shanghai in April 1946 - James Morgan aged 66.
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There's a picture of The Lawn in 1925 on page 18 of this document http://www.hfusc.org.uk/heritagetrails/images/teacher_8.pdf
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Aged 65 in 1945 per Captives of Empire http://www.rootschat.com/links/0gl9/
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Thank you very much for all your help, especially the passenger lists; I can only access those arriving back in England.
Please have a look at his supposed father Edward Morgan (coal porter) in the 1881 Census (RG11/198) staying as brother-in-law at 10 Seymour Mews. Please have a look at Sophie and William Darvell and where it says "Condition as to marriage", compare theirs to that of Edward - to me they look the same, so could Edward have been married at aged 17? I have been looking for a marriage for him around that date, not necessarily to Harriet Kalaher and I cannot find any. His father was George James Morgan (artificial florist or flower maker) and he died in 1869.
The only other explanation would be that James Edward Morgan was born under a totally different name and then adopted by Harriet and Edward.
Regarding getting engineering skills, in order to work in the Public Works Dept of the Shanghai Municipal Council, I found a passenger list for 4 July 1917 on board the SS "Fushimi Maru" where it states that a Mr J E Morgan was on board - profession Marine Engineer - country of permanent residence Shanghai, China, which is feasible, but it also has Mrs E Morgan 30 - Wife. The Mr J E Morgan has been struck out. It could be our James but, as far as the family knew, he never married.
Regarding getting training as an engineer, what options were there around 1896 onwards?
Dora
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I looked at Edward Morgan in 1881 and to me his marital status is "unm" - see other examples on the previous page.
Next door at number 11 there's another Morgan family - William and Julia - and they have a son Edward aged 1, born St Pancras. But he was Edward George, born 25 January 1880.
Not sure about the marine engineer. I wonder how many J E Morgans there were in Shanghai at that time
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The 2 Morgan families next to each other in the 1881 Census are of the same family. George James Morgan (artificial florist or flower maker) and Mary Ann Kemp's first born was William George Kemp Morgan, who married Julia Ann Jones. In another Census I have 4 Morgan families living next to each other all belonging to the same family.
William and Julia went on to have 10 children but none of them were named James Edward Morgan.
There is a James Edward Lock who was Harriet Morgan’s (nee Kalaher) sister Julia Eliza Lock (nee Kalaher) and Charles Henry Lock’s 3rd born out of 15 children!, but I have his birth certificate born 1878 and, what’s more, he married Jane Rumsey and had 3 children that I know of.
Edward Morgan, William George Kemp Morgan’s youngest brother was stated to be a coal porter in the 1881 Census aged 17 and was so until he died in 1910 but, apart from the 1891 Census where he is shown with a Harriet and son Edward (not James Edward), there is no trace of him in the 1901 Census and I can only find a Harriet Morgan working as a nursemaid, which I find hardly plausible since she abandoned Henry on somebody’s doorstep and we don’t know what happened to Thomas George Morgan, Henry’s older brother.
All I know is my partner’s Dad, one of Henry’s sons has 3 letters written by James Edward Morgan to his supposed brother Henry (whom he called James) and in the first letter he writes that he was overjoyed to have discovered he had a brother when they met at their uncle George’s place. This George would most probably be their father Edward Morgan’s older brother George James Morgan born 1861, who was also a coal porter or coal hawker in the Census’s. If James Edward Morgan is Henry’s brother and was born in 1880, then there is a 17 year gap between them and a 13 year gap between James and the next born Thomas George Morgan and, with no birth control, this is ludicrous! My Morgan/Lebby Family Tree is public so you are free to look at it any time. Most of it I have been able to back up with records.
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Further to my above post, there is another J E Morgan travelling to and from Shanghai on passenger ships but he is James Ernest Morgan and is a wine shipper.
Dora
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There is a birth record in the 1st quarter Jan - Mar 1880 for a Edward Ynyr in Pancras - Vol 1b, Page 1 - what would the "Ynyr" stand for? I'm just wondering whether it would be worth ordering this certificate to find out.
Dora
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Hi Dora :)
Out of idle curiosity, I googled 'Ynyr' and found that it's a traditional Welsh male name. Not much help but might save you £9.25 ;D
Regards,
Carol
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Thanks Carol - I Googled it too. I don't think our James was born a Morgan and I don't think I'll ever get to the bottom of this mystery. I've been looking at the rest of the Morgan and Kalaher women in case one of them had an illegitimate son but only Louisa Kalaher had twin girls Lily and May, Lily dying the following year.
Dora
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Records on A are continually being updated - probate records now go up to 1966 as against 1941. James Edward Morgan's probate record is now shown, but I've also found his School Admission record for St Matthew's National School (now St Matthew's Church of England School) on 26th May 1891 showing his address as being 19 Wellesley Street, which ties in with the 1891 Census. But the most uncanny thing is that James got the day and month of his birth correct, just not the year. In a certified copy of his passport when he left Shanghai to come back to England in 1946 it stated he was born on 13th February 1880 and this School Admission shows he was born on 13th February 1885 (which again ties in with the 1891 Census). There is no birth record for a James Edward Morgan born in 1885 (believe me I have ordered them) and in the School Admission record his father is not stated, yet for his brother Thomas George his father is stated as being Edward and gives an address that again ties in with his baptism record.
I have contacted the School in the hope that they may have some archives on this.
Dora
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Hello Dora,
My mum is Doris Gunning; the daughter of Florence Josephine Harrison (Gunning)
The person you call James Edward Morgan was known as Uncle Edward to my mum and he lived with her family in East Finchley when he returned from Shanghai. He was in the police force over there. Her eldest sister was Josephine Holmes. My mum had no idea her mum was adopted. Just knew the only photo of her mum as a child was not with her mother. Think my mum has a photo of uncle Edward in his uniform. She also has a letter between her uncle Edward and her mum when he was in Shanghai.
Hope this information helps you?
Any more news on on what happened to Florence's mother, Florence Harrison?
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Thank you for getting in touch about your Mum being Doris Gunning.
I found out that Florence Harrison was a farmer's daughter. In the 1901 Census Florence is staying as a lodger with Mary Ann Burton (nee Morgan) and is stated to be a parlour maid. You wonder whether her master had made her pregnant.
Then in the 1911 Census Mary Ann Burton is shown with Florence Josephine Harrison aged 11 (adopted girl).
I have not been able to find out what happened to Florence Harrison. I did get Florence Josephine Harrison's birth certificate which doesn't state who the father is; however, in her marriage certificate to Henry Thomas Gunning on 25 December 1922 it states her father as being a nurse, which I think is untrue.
I also cannot find who was the Burton that Mary Ann Morgan took the name of - there is certainly no marriage. Nor can I find out what happened to her after the 1911 Census.
Edward James Morgan was a Chief Inspector of the Public Works Department in the Shanghai Municipal Council. I went to the National Archives on two occasions and have copies of all the papers relating to the pension payment when he came out of the Japanese Prisoner of War camp. I also have a card for him when he was in the Prisoner of War camp. Sadly he died of oesophageal cancer.
I would love to see a copy of the letter exchanged with Edward and your Mum. We have 3 letters from him to Henry. Henry and his family had moved when Edward returned to England in 1946 and, in those days, it was impossible to trace where someone had moved, so he never hooked up with Henry again.
We also have a photograph of Edward in a smart suit. I will try and copy it tomorrow and attach it to another message, as it is late now.
This is my partner's family tree, not mine. If you would like any more information yourself. Please get in touch.
Dora
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Hello Dora. This system won't allow me to reply to your personal email. My mum has her mothers birth and marriage certificate. But thank you for offering to email it to me. Her mum always celebrated her birthday the next day to her real birth date and my mum suspects this was a way to stop people finding out that she was adopted. She has seen other inconsistencies, like her grandfathers occupation etc. Unfortunately, all my mums brothers and sisters and in-laws are dead now, so she has no one to check any information with. I only remember my cousin (now deceased) saying that Nan told her that she was left behind with an aunt and her 'brothers went to Canada'. My mum has no knowledge of this. So this may be a red herring. My nan loved having her children (a girl, a boy, identical twin girls and a set of fraternal twins Boy/girl) She had 19 grandchildren and lots of great grandchildren. She made up for being abandoned didn't she :) All my family's friends were also welcome and in fact, my nan met my husband, who was one of my cousins friends, before I did. Having Uncle Edward to stay would be the most natural thing in the world for her. She was a super-intelligent women, who looked young for her age and was a mother figure to many waifs and strays over the years. Probably taking after her adoptive mother's nurturing skills.
Sounds like you have the same photo of uncle Edward as she does. I'll see if I can find the letter again.
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