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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: collin on Thursday 03 November 11 16:24 GMT (UK)
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Hi
Grandad was in the RHA & RFA 1908- 1919 I asked a professional to find his records but was told he was not on the list so I asked the NA at Kew Why can't I find my Grandads records?
I had written to the MOD at Bourne Avenue Hayes in 1984 and they provided the dates of his
postings to South Africa India & Mesapotamia so I assumed his records had survived.
Kew just said that many records had been destroyed so I replied saying that I felt my question
had not been answered, where had the MOD got the information from? as all their stuff had gone to Kew, I didn't get a reply.
I wrote again to Hayes in 2009 asking what records they had held but the reply came from
Glasgow who had taken over in 2002 there is no record of what they held only that it had all gone to Kew. Wonder if any of you experts might know where the info came from? (it's not on
his medal card,got that)
Thanks a lot Glyn
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Hi Glyn
There are only medal index cards, 'WW1 service Records' and/or 'WW1 pension files'. Kew have removed themselves from the picture as regards the last two as they no longer provide access to any records, as these are on Ancestry (1914 to 1920) or Findmypast (before 1914). Instead they provide free access to these sites via terminals.
The MOD obviously had information in 1984 that has now disappeared. You really need to find out from the MOD what information they have sent to 'Kew' since then. If none then they have lost it. They could be just quoting the party line that they only have records for men discharged after 1920 - I believe that the official cut-off was 20 August 1920. But everyone knows that there are miss-files with records from the 1920s in with WW1 and even in pre-WW1. So it stands to reason that these post 1920s records contain ones from WW1.
You could try firepower.org.uk which is the museum of the RA. But I believe they charge.
Ken
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Hi Ken
thanks for that, something to work on. I found out the 1984 letter, my Gran was still
alive then and we had to send her marriage certificate before they gave us the info and it states
there are no photographs in the service record so it definitley existed then.
We also got Grandads brothers details and his record can't be traced either!
Best wishes Glyn
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Hi Glyn
As Ken said, surviving WW1 records are now online, if you post details of his name and service number then they might be online. Some 60% to 70% of WW1 Service Records were destroyed by fire during WW2 but if you got some information in 1984 then it sounds like your grandfathers survived. It would appear that there was a lot of filing errors in the records as when records started to appear online they initially only went up to the letter M or N but there were quite a few later records that obviously had been filed amongst the letters processed.
Andy
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Hi Andy
I go to our local library to search as I don't subscribe to any now. I could'nt find anything.
Grandad was Driver 51925 George Collin RHA and his brother Joseph was Pte 5/3030
Connaught Rangers, they gave me his posting dates in 1984 too but now there's no trace of
either of them, unless it's me?
Thanks Glyn
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Hi
My Grandad was born 11 November 1890 so WWl ended on his 28th birthday but we don't know where he was at the time other than Mesapotamia, I would like to know if there is a way to find out?.
We know he ran off to join the RHA age 17 in 1908 and joined for six years, when his time expired he was given the option to settle in Australia or go home, he thought it his duty to go back to see his mother but while waiting for the boat WWl began.
He was in South Africa 1909-1911
India 1911-1916 and
Mesapotamia 1916-1919
I don't know his unit only that he was in Z battery in 1911 at Potchefstroom SA. His medal card says RHA and RFA and don't know when the change happened. He had malaria in India and was discharged sick in 1919 as he was having epileptic fits.
He was 51925 Driver George Collin RHA
Many thanks
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Your other thread
now merged
also
http://www.circlecity.co.uk/wartime/board/index.php?page=195
Saves others looking for anything that has already been found etc.
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As I believe you have been informed on other boards (I can recall looking him up myself) the only extant records now are his medal records. I can see the frustration of information available in the past now being lost (his medal card has a 1984 date stamp on it suggesting that someone looked it up then). As you have seen, he is listed as RFA and RHA. Not entirely out of the question for someone to transfer from one to the other.
Frankly, as again someone has already said, the service records from the Great War, if they survived, are on Ancestry and/or FindMyPast, or, as no doubt happens, have got lost somewhere. You'll be aware that the same fate has befallen the records of your Connaught Ranger relative that you posted about recently.
The suggestion was made that his records may be with the post 1921 records still with MOD. I'll check and let you know.
I can't, I lost them in a disastrous computer crash 3 weeks ago and I don't remember now where I got them from!
Suggestion - make a new thread simply asking if someone has the registers of post 1920 service records to please look for his number and/or name. No need to go into the background.
MaxD
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I had forgotten about the earlier posts which just shows how good you are! I have been invited to go to our local church to light a candle for the brother who was killed at Loos and thought it would be nice to know where grandad was on Armistice Day. I wrote to Glasgow but they said that they had no record of him as his service ended before 1921. I should let it go now as I can't take it any further
Thank you
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"In June 1916, 7th (Meerut) Cavalry Brigade (complete with V Battery, RHA) left the division and was reformed for service in Mesopotamia. Other than the Battle of the Somme in 1916 (Battle of Bazentin Ridge, 14–17 July and Battle of Flers-Courcelette, 15–22 September) and the Battle of Cambrai in 1917, the division was not involved in battle. Instead, it was held in reserve in case of a breakthrough, although it did send parties to the trenches on a number of occasions. They would hold the line, or act as Pioneers; such parties were designated as, for example, the Mhow Battalion."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XVII_Brigade,_Royal_Horse_Artillery
The only mention of Mesapotamia I can find with RHA, so was he V Battery RHA?
Forces War Records.com index has:
George Collin 51925 Driver 1919 Royal Field Artillery
George Collin 51925 Driver 1914 Royal Field Artillery
(Would the 1914 be attestation and the 1919 be discharge??)
https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/search
He had no middle name just George Collins? Did the medal Card not have another service number on it besides 51925? Did the medal card have a first theatre of battle? Can you search by birth place?
?? George Collin — — 1088300 —
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-Records/royal-artillery-attestations-1883-1942
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You have certainly done as much as is possible and, if I may say so, in doing so have honoured his memory already by your persistence. Light two candles!
Best
MaxD
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Thank you MaxD
We always go to the 11am service but this year they are having one in church at 6.30 to light a candle for each of the 39 local lads
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Thank you to whiteout7 for the information
The medal card says RHA 51925 and see sec B A Reserve
underneath is x RFA/3478 4693
Also on the 1984 letter it just says RHA Regular Army
In India 14/12/11----15/7/16
Mesapotamia 16/7/16-----28/1/19
He told my uncle that he did his fighting in Mesapotamia their job was to take the guns up to the front to create an umbrella for the troops to advance under and he also did a bit of lancing on horseback
Thank you
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I checked out the one on Findmypast, he was 1946
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I have a similar problem with my father's service records.
I wrote to the MOD who told me they could find nothing at all.
They said they were transferring details to the National Archives.
So I have tried that site with his name, service number and date of birth
Not one result.
quote author=km1971 link=topic=564350.msg4168830#msg4168830 date=1320354322]
Hi Glyn
There are only medal index cards, 'WW1 service Records' and/or 'WW1 pension files'. Kew have removed themselves from the picture as regards the last two as they no longer provide access to any records, as these are on Ancestry (1914 to 1920) or Findmypast (before 1914). Instead they provide free access to these sites via terminals.
The MOD obviously had information in 1984 that has now disappeared. You really need to find out from the MOD what information they have sent to 'Kew' since then. If none then they have lost it. They could be just quoting the party line that they only have records for men discharged after 1920 - I believe that the official cut-off was 20 August 1920. But everyone knows that there are miss-files with records from the 1920s in with WW1 and even in pre-WW1. So it stands to reason that these post 1920s records contain ones from WW1.
You could try firepower.org.uk which is the museum of the RA. But I believe they charge.
Ken
[/quote]
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I have a similar problem with my father's service records.
I wrote to the MOD who told me they could find nothing at all.
They said they were transferring details to the National Archives.
So I have tried that site with his name, service number and date of birth
Not one result.
quote author=km1971 link=topic=564350.msg4168830#msg4168830 date=1320354322]
Hi Glyn
There are only medal index cards, 'WW1 service Records' and/or 'WW1 pension files'. Kew have removed themselves from the picture as regards the last two as they no longer provide access to any records, as these are on Ancestry (1914 to 1920) or Findmypast (before 1914). Instead they provide free access to these sites via terminals.
The MOD obviously had information in 1984 that has now disappeared. You really need to find out from the MOD what information they have sent to 'Kew' since then. If none then they have lost it. They could be just quoting the party line that they only have records for men discharged after 1920 - I believe that the official cut-off was 20 August 1920. But everyone knows that there are miss-files with records from the 1920s in with WW1 and even in pre-WW1. So it stands to reason that these post 1920s records contain ones from WW1.
You could try firepower.org.uk which is the museum of the RA. But I believe they charge.
Ken
[/quote]
This original thread was composed in November 2011.
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I gave up hope of finding grandad's service records, Kew gave me details of his movements in 1984 and his brothers and both are now lost so how many more have been lost?
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I gave up hope of finding grandad's service records, Kew gave me details of his movements in 1984 and his brothers and both are now lost so how many more have been lost?
I am so sorry to hear this Collin.
I feel I am in the same situation as yourself. In spite of all the details I hold, nothing at all. 😔😔
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I remember speaking to the lady on the phone and asking her a question and she said There's nothing on here, which made me think she had the record in front of her, maybe on a screen or a film?
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Marian,
As far as I am aware you haven't posted details about your search for your granfather on Rootschat (just the search for your father). Even if you can't get his service record, it's amazing how much of his time in the Army during WW1 can be reconstructed provided that you know a little bit about him, for instance his unit, and ideally his army number(s). Have you found his medal index card? These have all survived, so if there isn't a MIC for him, that may indicate that he didn't serve outside the UK. The main problem with MICs comes when your subject has a fairly common name and it's hard to identify his specific card among many others of the same name.
And it's not strictly true to say that the MOD and or TNA have 'lost' any service records. As you know roughly two thirds of all the WW1 service records (up to 1920) were destroyed in a fire caused by a German bomb in WW2. If you grandfather's was among them then whatever you were told in 1984 didn't come from those documents but from another source. Depending on his regiment, you may find that places like regimental museums hold additional records such as enlistment books and tracer cards which have survived. Also some pension records (created by the Ministry of Pensions, not the War Office) have survived so if he was entitled to a disability pension there may be a record of this. Also around 5% of the medical records for soldiers hospitalised during the war have survived so again somewhere worth checking. Although soldiers are rarely referred to by name in the war diaries, it is usually possible to use these to recreate a fairly good picture of where and when a unit was in action and when it wasn't. Contrary to popular belief most soldiers spent more time away from the front trenches than they did in them.
Another way of approaching your research, provided that you know the person's Army number* is to search for other soldiers with numbers close to your subject and see if you can find their records. Often these men will have served alongside your subject and so if their records have survived, you can build a picture of what your subject's time in the Army might have looked like. This is particularly true of the First World War where men were encouraged to join up in groups who all knew each other or came from the same local area or place of work. These units were called Pals' battalions.
*Soldiers' numbers prior to 1920 were in fact Regimental numbers and so different units might have men with the same number, so this method only works for men of the same unit. You can often work out when a man enlisted based on when his number was issued - more details here (https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/p/index.html)
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AndyJ2022.
I am not looking for my grandfather.
Only my father who I cannot find.
Thank you for your concern.
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I am not looking for my grandfather.
Only my father who I cannot find.
OK thanks for clarifying that. That being the case then you are definitely not "in the same situation as" Collin. Your father's record exists, and I suspect that it is currently sitting in a storage pallet at Kew waiting to be catalogued and, eventually, digitized. TNA say they hope to have indexed all the 3 million records they have inherited from the MOD (https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/our-role/plans-policies-performance-and-projects/our-projects/ministry-of-defence-service-records/) by early 2027. Ancestry are dealing with digitizing the first tranche of the documents, which will take somewhat longer; currently they aim to complete this by 2029, but that part of the project does not include the records of men born less than 100 years ago. New digitized records will be added to the Ancestry website annually as the hundredth anniversary of a man's birth is passed.
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Thank you. My father was born on 4th May 1908. I will need to be patient and wait for 2029, provided I am still alive and my advanced age.
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No, you shouldn't have to wait that long. As I say, the cataloguing should be complete by the end of next year, and since your father was born more 115 years ago, TNA will be able to send you copy of his record straight away, if you don't want to wait for Ancestry. I am not sure what format the TNA uses to provide responses to Freedom of Information requests, but it will probably come as a series of photocopies or pdfs. In many ways this is better than waiting for Ancestry as you won't be relying of their transcribers and you will have copy of the actual document with all its quirks and marginal notes, which Ancestry may not bother with.
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Thank you Andy J2022.