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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Canada Lookup Request => Topic started by: Razzy on Thursday 03 November 11 00:55 GMT (UK)
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I recently found out that my great grandmother Olive MASTERS died in Ignace, Ontario
on September 15th, 1953.
She left her home in Manitoba to visit and died in Ignace.
Olive ws buried in Teulon, Manitoba.
Is there somebody who can retreive her death registration online?
Since she died in Ontario, I am guessing her death registration would be in Ontario even though Olive as a Manitoba resident.
Razzy
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Hi Razzy
Only Ontario registrations up to 1939 are currently available online. All registrations within the past 72 years are not - every year a new year is made available (eg: 1940 registrations will be made available in 2012).
And while you technically may apply for a certificate (offline & by submitting a form) registered within the past 72 years - you will not actually be able to obtain one unless you are proven nok or executor.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~canon/research-topic-deaths.html
http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/english/archival-records/interloan/v-dintro.aspx
Cheers
AMBLY
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The Ontario Vital Stats page is famous for drowning us with dialogue after dialogue of proceedures and requirements............ and so on........
I do not see where to download the online form for death registration, does anyone else?
I am looking for the form for death registration which according to the website must be made online.
My g/grandmother died in 1953.
I cannot find this form, can anyone else?
thanks
Razzy
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You do not have to make an application online for a death registration in Ontario. You can choose to use the online service or mail the form to Thunder Bay. Everything is easily found on the ServiceOntario website.
Debbie
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I do not seem to be reading the same website. The website I read offers only online and still I cannot find the form.
I am not in Ontario, so I do not see any other wording for me to fill out a death registration form.
I hope there is a death registration as a death certificate does not supply the necessary information to us who are tracing our family tree.
Razzy
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enter serviceontario into search engine and it should pull it up for you. There is an online application and a downloadable/printable PDF form.
Debbie
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well, I don't get it.
I do get the famous circle
as I did write in my previous post.
I do remember even trying this with the genealogist and with staff in the main library whom also thought this was a simple task, until.... they also tried and, even with their skills, their abilities, their experience were amazed and disturbed.
So, I do know, I am not alone.
Absolutely incredible...
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Try this link to see if it takes you to the site where you can order the death certificate/registration.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ggm/
Susan
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If that doesn't work try this;
http://www.forms.ssb.gov.on.ca/mbs/ssb/forms/ssbforms.nsf/FormDetail?OpenForm&ACT=RDR&TAB=PROFILE&SRCH=&ENV=WWE&TIT=Death%20certificate&NO=007-11075E
It's under Forms
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OK, both those worked, thanks so much.
I don't know, I am so fed up with computers, thanks.
I need to know more than what the certificae reads. I was hoping for a registration of death.
I need to find Olives' parents and place of birth.
The Ontario certificate does not seem to supply this information from what I am reading.
Does anyone read any different?
I do not see where I can request a regiastration of death. I only see certificate of death.
thanks,
Razzy
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Do you know how old Olive was when she died?
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the obit said 80. Now maybe in her 80th year or she was actually 80.
in the 1906 federal census she is listed aged 30 with her husband Sidney MASTERS in Winnipeg, Manitoba and two children Lewis and Eva also two lodgers
Winnipeg Ward 5
Olives' obit says she was born in Ontario and so does the 1906 census.
Does this help?
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Razzy, if you scroll down the order form, you will see 3 different types you can order, one of which is the 'long form' which includes the medical certificate. You will have to meet the eligibilty conditions to order any certificate from the restricted years (post 1939).
Regards
Polarbear
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Hi Polarbear,
I am missing something then. I am nok, a great grandson.
I am searching for the spouse (to confirm), parents, and place of birth.
The extended long form is a joining of the death certificate and the medical certificate of death.
In reading what is in the extended long form or the medical certificate of death is the certificate of death.
What is contained there in the certificate of death is 'basic information'.
The medical certificate of death adds 'signatures'.
The extended long form combines the two other forms.
Basic information tell who died, where, when. Nothing about parents or place of birth.
I have bought certificates of death before (my mistake) and that is all the information I recieved, just a death certificate, not even spouses name, nothing else.
I will say this was a certificate from another province of Canada.
Medical certificate of death tells me what the person died of and signatures of the doctor, medical examiner, it is possible of the person who identified the deceased. Now since my g/grandmother died in her daughters town, Ignace, I think I know who any possible signature would be if any came from family.
So the extended long form which combines the two does not seem to tell me and the printing of the expanation the province of Ontario gives does not include, as other provinces and countries (OGR Freebmd) do, the parents names and place of birh.
The Ontario forms do not seem to include this information.
I have understood that is why a registration contains much more meaningful information than a certificate. I have an Albertan and a Yukon certificate of death, unfortunately the information was of no help because the basics were on the certificate but not the spouses, the parents, nor the place of birth.
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I don't think you took the time to read the options for a death certificate in Ontario and really find out what forms they are referring to. The certified copies of death - long form and the extended long form - both include the information contained on the Statement of Death that is filled out by the funeral home. A copy of the current form (2005) can be found at this site and it does allow information on parents to be included.
http://www.jamiomar.org/docs/Statement_of_Death_Form-15.pdf
That doesn't mean that this information was collected in 1953. There were many different forms for registering deaths in Ontario used over the years and the information gathered varied. Some contained room for parents information and others concentrated on the year of death and the doctor's signature and diagnosis.
If you don't want to gamble $22.00 on what information can be found then email the Thunder Bay ofice of the Registrar General and ask what information you could expect to find out from a Statement of Death in 1953.
In order for you to qualify to obtain a death registration all of Olive's siblings and/or children must no longer be living - only then do grandchildren become eligible to apply for a registration.
Debbie
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Thanks Debbie,
I emailed the Thunder Bay office and am waiting their reply I expect next week.
Yes, I read the forms but the forms were not clear enough.
The modern form you attached did ask the questions but the website did not clarify what to expect on the forms.
The OGR for Great Britian states what we can expect on each form.
I am in BC which is a distance from Ontario.
In the past I requested a certificate of death from Alberta and also from the Yukon, and parents, spouse, place of death were not included. A dud.
So it is with concern when I need to order a certificate of death and I am not able to clarify what information is included before I order.
All of Olives' children have now died.
I can expect since Olive was 80 when she died all her siblings have now died.
Thanks,
Razzy
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Razzy, are there any living children of Olive that you are in contact with? If none of her children are still alive, what about living grandchildren (your parent?)?
Jacquie
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the obit said 80. Now maybe in her 80th year or she was actually 80.
in the 1906 federal census she is listed aged 30 with her husband Sidney MASTERS in Winnipeg, Manitoba and two children Lewis and Eva also two lodgers
Winnipeg Ward 5
Olives' obit says she was born in Ontario and so does the 1906 census.
Does this help?
Maybe this is a lead :-\
Apr 23 1925 a Lewis Roy Masters married a Thirza Alice Graham in Kenora, Ont.
Lewis said; he was born in Winnipeg, Man, gave his age as 25, his father was Sydney James Masters and his mother was Olive Irwin.
There is an Ontario birth of an Olive Irwin; b. 27 Dec 1875, to Samuel Irwin and Ann Jane Johnson. Registered 14 Feb 1876 in Lambton #013051
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,533072.10.html
See Jacquie's reply #5 on above thread
Olive b. Dec 1875 Lambton is on the 1911 census with her parent and single.
Debbie
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Yes, I think Olives last name is IRWIN, I also think that Olives' parents are Samuel and Anna Jane.
Proof is in the registration.
Recently I was able to find Olives date of death and am now using this to find her registration of death hopefully.
Yesterday I emailed the Thunder Bay office to request if the death certificate of 1953 had the information: Parents od deaceased, spouse, and place of birth. Then I will have the proof.
My past experience is that death certificates do not provide that information, maybe this is an exception.
Jacquie and another person brought to my attention they found three different Olive IRWINs while they were helping me.
That time, they did not think the Olive IRWIN with parents Samuel and Anna Jane was the Olive who married Sidney MASTERS and had son Lewis, et al.
So now I need to hear from the Thunder Bay office confirming that on death certificates of 1953 the name of the spouse, parents, and place of birth were on those forms for that year, 1953.
Otherwise I need to find a form that does include this information, then I will have my proof.
Otherwise, I will need to keep searching until I find the right Olive.
razzy
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sI would be interested in what information you do find on the 1953 death certificate. I really think you are wrong to pin your hopes on Samuel Irwin and Ann Jane Johnston are Olive's parents.
It was pointed out earlier that there is a family tree on ancestry with a photograph of Olive M. Irwin's headstone. Other trees show her with a definite death date of 11 November 1948.
Samuel and Ann Jane had a daughter Elizabeth who married under Annie E. Irwin in 1885 Lambton to Richard Boulton. Below is a link to the 1901 census for Eliz. Boulton and her children. Living in the same residence in Lambton County is Ollie Irwin, dressmaker, with a birth date in Dec 1875 - I would think Elizabeth's sister.
http://automatedgenealogy.com/uidlinks/Links.jsp?uid=700233998
In 1911 Olive is living with her mother in Ontario
Olive's brother Thomas James Irwin b. Aug 14, 1865 d. 4 Dec 1924. His residence at the time was 234 Napier Street, Sarnia and the informant was his sister Miss Olive Irwin of the same address. Thomas' parents were given as Samuel Irwin Ireland and Annie Jean Johnston Carleton Place.
Another son of Samuel's, John Irwin, d. 1934 in Lambton county and the informant was Miss Irwin of 234 Napier Street.
I would be folliwing the Louisa Irwin b. 7 Mar 1874 London Middlesex ont. to James Irwin and Rebecca Foster. On the 1891 census for London, Ont Rebecca Irwin is a 45 year old widow with son Armon, 23 living with her (he married in 1892 which gave father's name), 17 year old Olive L. (the Louisa of the birth registration? ), and another daughter. Don't see Olive L. Irwin in the 1901 census and in the 1881 for London, Middlesex there is
james Irwin 55 b. Ireland with wife Ann Irwin 45 b. Ire and children John 26, b. Eng , Anthony 24, B. Ont, Mary A. 23, Bridget, 21, George, 18, Lizzie 10, Sarah J. 9, William 7, Louisa 5, Frederick 1.
Added
Not sure if that 1881 is relevant or not. In the 1871 for London James Irwin, 30 and Rebecca 25, have children Annie 5, Armon 3, and Lessie (?) 1. All born Ontario with employment for James shown as oil refinery.
On the 1880 US census for Brooklyn New York a Rebecca Irwin, 34 b. Canada, no marital status indicated, is a niece in the household of Rev. W. W. Clark. His wife Emily and 15 year old son Sherwood were born in Canada.
Debbie
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Olive Louisa Irwin d/o James Irwin and Rebecca Foster doesn't work either.
Marriage 1 Jan 1907 Bruce County to John Alexander Geddes (her last name is indexed as Irevin)
1911 census the couple is in Moosejaw Sask. with children.
Debbie
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Thanks Debbie,
I am not pinning my hopes on Samuel and Anna Jane anymore.
I had in the past and am not anymore. I really hope to have had the death registration by now, but Manitoba Vital Stats cannot find the Olive buried in Manitoba, and now maybe I understand since she died in Ignace, Ontario -not Manitoba.
I am waiting to hear back from Manitoba Vital Stats and also Ontario, now that I could email them on Friday.
Bieng buried in Manitoba maybe, maybe, there will be some information just for the fact Olive is buried in Manitoba although she died in Ontario.
Razzy
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Hi Razzy.
I was wondering ....
Did you ever contact the Teulon Cemetery to see if they had any spousal or parental info, as was suggested on your other thread?
PB
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Hi Polarbear,
yes, I did contact their email. No response. I will try again though.
Had a reply from Thunder Bay. My email was not read, Thunder Bay just passed me on to Ontario Gen. Society, plus two other gov't departments.
So no answer on whether the 1953 death certificates include the information that I need.
Have not heard from Manitoba yet, I went to Staples and sent them a fax on Thursday.
I expect maybe I will recieve a letter in the mail so I will be waiting for that.
Razzy
This is what I recieved as response:
Thank you for contacting the Ministry of Government Services.
The Thunder Bay Production and Verification Services Branch holds Ontario records for births for the past 95 years, marriages for the past 80 years and deaths for the past 70 years. You may contact the branch at 416-325-8305 in Toronto, or toll-free (in Ontario) at 1-800-461-2156.
To obtain records prior to that time, contact the Archives of Ontario, Vital Statistics Reference, 134 Ian Macdonald Blvd, Toronto, Ontario, M7A 2C5, or call the Vital Statistics Hotline at 416-327-1593; toll-free within Ontario: 1-800-668-9933. Visit the Archives’ website at: http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/english/index.aspx
The Ontario Genealogical Society (OGS) also has sources that may be able to assist you. You can reach the OGS at: Suite102, 40 Orchard View Boulevard, Toronto ON M4R 1B9; Telephone: 416-489-0734; fax: 416-489-9803. Its website is http://www.ogs.on.ca/.
You may also wish to visit the website for Library and Archives Canada at http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/genealogy/index-e.html.
The site is a single window providing electronic access to the genealogical resources of Canada. It offers genealogical content, services, advice, research tools and opportunities to work online on joint projects in both official languages.
So, I never did recieve a response, really. I am not in Ontario so the Ontario only toll free number does not help me.
Razzy
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Razzy, are there any living children of Olive that you are in contact with? If none of her children are still alive, what about living grandchildren (your parent?)?
Since you didn't respond to my question, I'm assuming you didn't see it.
Jacquie
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I did see it Jacquie, sorry that I did not respond,
No there are no living children still alive. None of my aunts, uncles, cousins, nor my parent know of Olives' parents, place of birth, or Olives' sblings.
Olives' obit in the Teulon paper Stonewal Argus says Olive is from Ontario. No mention of her parents.
Believing that Lewis is illegitimate, possibly relations between Olive and her siblings and her parents could have been estranged.
I have never found a marriage of Olive and Sidney, nor a divorce of Sidney and Harriet.
I did request a marriage certificate from Manitoba, however, nothing was found.
I have not requested a divorce of Sidney and Harriet.
I have as children of Olive and Sidney:
Lewis Roy b1899d1955,
Ida May b1905/06d1909,
Hazel b?dmid60s,
Nellie May b1911 d80s?,
Albert James b1913d1978,
Edward John b1916d?,
Clara Irene b1919d1983.
Outside of Lewis, most or all of Sidney and Olives' children were born in Teulon, MB.
So none of the childrens' names refer to Sidney and maybe Olives' middle initial is 'M', or, maybe not.
None of the childrens names refer to Sidneys family, except, maye Edward.
I have not found any Irwins in Ontario or Manitoba with any reference to the choosing of names for Olive and Sidney, particularly 1901 or sooner federal or provincial census in Ontario.
Despite Lewis' marriage to Thirza in 1925 Sidneys' middle name is John, not James.
I used to find Olive and Sidney and Harriett in the 1916 federal census at Camp Hughs in Manitoba (around Winnipeg somewhere).
I cannot find Olive in the Ontario or the Manitoba census in 1901 with Lewis.
It is possible, if Olive went back to her parents, the family did not show Lewis for enumeration, maybe social stigma?
Thanks Jacquie,
Razzy
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The reason I asked was, since all of Olive's children are dead, your parent being Olive's grandchild would qualify as extended next of kin and can order a copy of her death registration. If you send in a hardcopy of the form, the application would need to be made in your parent's name and your parent would have to sign the application but you could put your own address on the application so it is sent directly to you. If you order it online in your parent's name, Vital Stats will send a form that would need to be signed by your parent and returned before they will send you the registration. If it's more convenient for you to get one of your aunts or uncles to sign the form, any grandchild of Olive's would qualify as extended next of kin with all her children dead. Also, it doesn't matter if the person who is making the application is not the same person who is paying for it.
Jacquie
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ok,
I have made out a form that my parent signed giving me consent to request certificates and registrations on family while tracing our family tree.
I include a copy of this agreement/consent when I mail the desired form (hardcopy).
I did this when I initially mailed Manitoba regarding Olive.
Thanks,
Razzy
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Wow, prices went up dramatically.
An Ontario death certificate is now $65 and a death registration is now $75.
Manitoba just replied to my letter by mailing me tow forms, an Ontario death certificate application and a marriage certificate application. No other communication.
The same charge applies -$65 for a marriage certificate and $75 for a long form.
However since Olives' husband might have married her, and He died in 1929, maybe this marriage would be online for free somewhere on an Ontario website. I will go check the library Ancestry edition.
Razzy
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Are you going through a 2nd party agency for registration forms - they add a surcharge.
Service Ontario website gives quite reasonable prices for registrations
http://www.ontario.ca/en/information_bundle/individuals/119461
Debbie
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very good eye, thanks.
I was sent something called 'ExpressLegal' from Nelson, BC
I am glad you asked me this, it now occurs to me there is no Ontario logo on any of the papers.
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To order a birth/death/marriage certificate on line in Ontario, go to www.serviceontario.ca
Karen
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Well, I received my reply from the Ontario Registrar. :)
Now what do I do?
Olive died in Ignace, Ontario on September 15th, 1953.
my great aunt unfortunately drew a line thru Olives' parents names and birthplace of either parent.
However Olive is born in Ontario and she is irish. This is different than in the census' where maybe due to her common law(?) husband origins Olive is registered as english.
Olives' date of birth is noted as December 25th, but no year.
Age is 79 years, 8 months, and 21 days. This brings me back to Dec 27th, 1874/75 as a daughter of Samuel IRWIN. My grandfathers (Lewis) surname at birth was IRWIN/MASTERS.
When looking at Sidney and Olives names they gave their children I am not able to find out who Olives' parents could be.
As for being irish, born in Ontario, so far I can only seem to come up with Samuel and Anna Jane nee JOHNSTON or
Rebecca IRWIN (widower) whose husband may have been George.
Do not know where to go on this, any help?
thanks,
Razzy
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The Lakeview Cemetery has a burial database online. There is a John Irwin who died 11 Mar 1934 buried there. His death registration indicates he was the son of Samuel Irwin and Ann Johnston. It also indicates he was single and the informant was Miss Irwin, sister. Miss Irwin lists her address as the same as the place of death for John. The Olive Irwin who died 10 Nov 1948 is buried in the same plot as John Irwin. Also buried in the same plot is Mary McIntosh. The family tree at Ancestry that has the picture of Olive's grave marker also has pictures of John and Mary's grave markers. The one for Mary lists her as M. Isabelle Irwin, wife of J.A. McIntosh. I believe it was Debbie who earlier supplied information regarding the marriage of Olive's sister to Alexander McIntosh. With all of the information we have found regarding the Olive who was the daughter of Samuel and Ann, I think we have rather conclusively proven that she is not the Olive you are looking for.
Jacquie
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Hi Jacquie,
Thanks.
Yes, you are right.
I sure wish my family could remember some new information that I could utilize.
I appreciate the help.
Razzy
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I think you are, unfortunately back to square 1 regarding Olive. We have eliminated three Olives who were born in Ontario around 1874 from being the one you are looking for:
1) Olive Irwin, daughter of Samuel Irwin and Ann Johnston - eliminated
2) Olive Irwin, daughter of James Irwin and Rebecca Foster - eliminated - she married a man name Geddes, had two children born in Wentworth County in 1903 and 1908 and Debbie found her on the 1911 census in Moose Jaw with her husband and children.
3) Olive Erwin, daughter of William and Matilda Erwin - eliminated - she died in 1900.
The Rebecca Irwin whose husband was named George didn't have a daughter named Olive. This was a second marriage for Rebecca - her maiden surname was Alexander and her first marriage was to a man named Bradley. She and George did have 4 children together including a daughter born about 1874 but her name was Helena. Helena is listed on the 1881 and 1891 census with her parents but I haven't been able to find her after that.
Jacquie