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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: loudam on Tuesday 01 November 11 19:04 GMT (UK)
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In the course of trying to trace my grandmothers parents, she was "adopted" by a woman, I say adopted because it was 1926 and adoptions were a little bit loose then...
anyway I have her baptism record from the parish she grew up in with parents names on it, along with the name of the woman who brought her up who seems to have "stood" for them in order to get my GM baptised, and for the parents location it says "parents of Dublin", godparents were the woman who brought my GM up and her nephew....
I'm trying to figure out now how accurate these church records were, it just seems odd to me and her Godfather kind of now seems like an likely candidate for her father, my mind is in overdrive trying to figure it all out, but what I'd like to know is if it was possible for it to be entered on the baptism record but not actually be them at all, we've no idea if they were present at the baptism or not I suppose we have to assume they were, but has anyone had any experience like this where what was recorded on the baptism record wasn't actually how it really was??
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You haven't mentioned the denomination of the church where the baptism took place but in most religions godparents were chosen so that they would look after the spiritial welfare of the child, especially in the event that the parents were unable to do so, and often if anything happened to the parents they would look after the child.
Godparents were sometimes related but not always so it might be a good idea to look for a family connection between the parents and these godparents.
Just because a man is listed as the godfather does not mean that he was the father of the child. What age was the nephew when the child was baptised? it's not uncommon for young adults to be godparents, especially if one of more of the other godparents were elderly.
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It's more about the parents name on the baptism record, catholic church by the way! We are trying to see if we can trace my GM's parents, but we've no birth record for her, only record is her baptism one, so we're trying to figure out if both her parents being on the baptism record what it means, like we're they present for the baptism, or we're they just named? If they were just "named" how could they get around it?
I want to try getting my GM's birth cert but I need to figure out first if the parents names on the birth are to be taken as accurate..
Theres very little info apart from the odd story from family members...
The godfather was 19/20, but the older and younger godparent would be right in this case and the godmother was older...
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When was the child born and when did the baptism take place? If the child was not baptised and the parents died it could be that the godparents/adoptive family brought the child to be baptised (although in cases where I've seen this the clergyman has written in a note about the circumstances or listed the parents as deceased).
I would start by assuming that the parents did exist and were the real parents and then look for details about them. Since you can't find the child's birth certificate how about-
Marriage record for the couple?
Death records for the couple (preferably around the time of birth/before baptism)?
Not sure of the date here but is 1911 cenus any help?
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My GM was born in 1926
I've attached the part of the baptismal record where parents current residence is, not a great photo because it was taken with my phone...
The family story was/is that a woman, my GM's mother was married and living in Kildare, she got pregnant by another man with my GM and moved to cork where she met the woman who brought my GM up, she had my GM and arrived back to this woman who brought my GM up and gave her to her...
It was known that her fathers name was John Finn, but according to the record its actually William was his name..
I've checked for marriages between both parents, I found one in 1926, it was a Mayo marriage, man was a garda and I got his garda record yesterday, he was from limerick, so while it's looking less like a match I'll still keep them in the running...
I suppose if we could nail down what the baptismal record could possibly mean it might put us on the right track, both myself and my aunt just feel its kind of a far fetched story and if it's right why would both parents names have been put down...
Edited to add that it's the FINN entry
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The father's name on the above image is JOHN Finn not William. Normally the parents would be resident in the parish where the baptism took place but in this instance they are from Dublin and the c/o address is a local one. It's quite likely he would have asked questions before performing the ceremony.
Have you searched for a baptism in Dublin as well as Cork for the child?
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The reason we know it's William and not John is that the Priest who was there at the time was a William Callanan
This is his name in the record..
I haven't looked for a baptism record in dublin as I wouldn't know where to start, but we have looked at birth records for dublin....
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According to the Diocese's website the priest was John Callanan: http://www.corkandross.org/priestsHistorical.jsp?parishID=33
Independent of this, it does look like John.
Edit: Doublechecked with a Catholic Directory for 1926: John Callanan was a curate, parish of Glounthane.
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Thanks, Sonas, I'm also convinced the name is John not William :)
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We all had John as the name too until I went to the church 2 weeks ago and the woman in the office, said no it's william not john because the priest was william!! But as I can see from the link we're now back to John Finn!!! ;D
Edited to change the NOT to NOW!!! ;D
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It is possible that John Finn,was your great grandmothers husband.
Even though he was not the childs father I understand in those days it is he who would be named as father.
Since your ggrandmother was having a child who was not her husbands she may have gone to a home for unmarried mothers.
In many cases this was the County Home & the child would be fostered out to someone,who received a payment from the County Council.
It may very well have been situated in Gloutane or nearby as babies were baptised shortly after birth,by the local priest.
Since you have the date of Baptism & the other details it should be possible to get a Birth Cert.
Where have you tried.
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Our understanding of the story as we've been told is that John Finn was the father of my GM but not married to my GGM, but we also know that unless you see something in writing keep looking outside the box!
My Aunt has went to the Births, Marriages, and Deaths office in cork and has asked via an application to the GRO...
I'm going to try the GRO again, anyway..
In regards to a mother and baby home, Bessboro and the Good Shepard Convent would the 2 that would be cork possibilities, but I've been led to believe that if she had been born in any of these she would also have been baptised there or in the local church to them.... and glounthaune wouldn't have been local to either of these places..
We're still trying to find out where and for how long she went to school as theres a record in the local school to where she grew up and my GM also mentioned to my aunt that she went to school in a school in Cork City, St Patricks, and we're assuming it's St Patricks infant school.... bit out of the way from where she grew up, but my father had the story that she lived in an orphange at some point too, but again we can't find any "proof" of this, I've many threads on the go about my GM and her life so I apologise if I'm leaving out info that I may think I've already posted!! ;D
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Hi again,
as you mentioned 'adoption' procedures were loose, a couple of things I thought about.
Is there any contact or anyone alive from the adoptive family who may be able to shed some light on the matter?
Have you checked out the family to see if there is any possibility that the your grandmother's mother could be a family member. (I am thinking that grandmother may be illegitimate and a family member raised her).
heywood
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Theres one woman who would have been like a sister to my GM whos still alive but she's not in her right mind anymore unfortunately....
Both myself and my aunt think given the times the usually the most likely situation is that she was belonged to the people who brought her up in particular the woman my GM spent most of her time with not the woman who's name is on the birth record but her niece, who was living with them at the time, if there were no parents names, we'd be 100% convinced of this, but I think the biggest hurdle is how truthful was this particular church record, given the year it happened, the lies that went on within the catholic church and of course the state of the country itself it's hard to know if we should take this church record as being 100% accurate that there was indeed a mother and father who were from dublin...
It appears it was a very common thing to happen back then and woman got pregnant out of marriage, some went to mother and baby homes, others were brought by grandparents as their own children, so it wouldn't be at all unusual for this to be the case, but the church record stops this particular reason....
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Was she baptised in the same parish where she was raised?
As you say, being mindful of the times and things that went on, wonder if the names were just given to the priest and accepted?
Many of the questions that we would like to be answered can't be - that's the sadness.
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Yeah she grew up in the parish she was baptised in, got married there too, but no confirmation record for her whereas there is for other kids that were baptised at the same time, which is another story we're trying to find out about!!
We may eventually just have to accept that we'll never know!!
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I don't know much of confirmation practices at that time, but I was confirmed in another town because it was arranged through our school rather than parish based.
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Well glounthaune church is the parish church and even still all confirmations are still done there for the parish, the date is wrote down for others who were confirmed, the woman in the office said that another church is supposed to inform the church of baptism when they are confirmed but it wasn't always done, there was I think one other other entry that had a confirmation from outside the parish recorded in the book, so she wasn't confirmed in the parish she grew up in at all!! There is a church I must check to see if there are any records for my grandmother yet..