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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: HGauthier on Tuesday 01 November 11 18:43 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone... ! I'm at such a loss with my Welsh family... it amazes me how many Jones and Roberts families there are! :)
I'm going to just start... My Great Great Grandmother was Winifred Jones b: Nov 7, 1871 in Llangollen (Registered in Derbyshire district Corwen on Dec 11/1871) - d: Dec 9, 1954 in Canada. She married my Great Great Grandfather Charles James Chandler in about 1895 in Wales or England. Charles Chandler was b: Dec 1873 in Wales d: Dec 17, 1958 in Canada. Although I'm struggling with the Chandler side of the family, I will save for another post.. back to Winifred Jones... She was born to John James Jones and Gwen Roberts. John James Jones was a Road Labourer in Wales in Llangollen. His first wife (I believe) was Gwen Roberts, and from all of the stories told to me, Winifred was their only child. I'm not sure if Gwen died during childbirth, or when Winifred was still young, but John James Jones went on to remarry. I only know this because my the story goes that my Great Great Grandmother Winifred never spoke of her home life. Her step mother was wicked to her. I know that Gwen Roberts is her biological mother as I have a copy of the birth certificate. I can find nothing else on John James Jones or Gwen Roberts... not a birth date, a death date, or anything. It's hard to move forward without this information. I do know that Winifred was close to one of her step sisters who I believe was called Annie Florence..(aka Flo). She married a Dick Richards I believe and moved to Canada herself. If anyone has any information, or any websites or other words of wisdom to share with me it would be much appreciated. The only other thing I know is that Winifred was a Nurse at Bedlam Institution in England for awhile, and I believe married my Great Great Grandfather Charlie there. I also know that Charlie fought in the Boer War, and have found records for him. My Great Grandmother Marie Winifred is their daughter and only child (they may have lost one at childbirth). Looking forward to hearing from someone!
Thanks!
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Hi and Welcome to rootschat :)
and welcome to the Jones/Roberts brigade - I have lots in my lines and also from similar areas.
Llangollen is in Denbighshire (I went to school there):
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Llangollen/index.html
You've given quite a bit of information so I'll have a read through and see if I can help but I thought I'd come and welcome you first :)
Regards
gnu
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Thanks for the welcome! :) I'd appreciate any assistance...
The Jones--Roberts thing eh? Glad to hear I'm not the only one! :)
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Oh..and thanks for the link... I finally figured out the name on the Birth Certificate of Eirianallt! I've been trying to figure that out..but couldn't read the writing on it... yay!
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:)
Just trying to work through Winifred's life.
Is this her in Liverpool in 1901:
23 Gorst Street, Everton
RG13/3479/76/25
Winifred Chandler, hd, mar, 29, b. Llangollen
Jessie W, d, 7, b. Liverpool
gnu
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The only one that is popping up in 1881 is this family but it doesn't quite fit, so not sure:
Llangollen Fechan, Llangollen
RG11/5540/130/17
John Jones, 47, labourer, Llawr Bettws, Merionethshire
Elizabeth, 46
Griffith Edwards, son, 21, printer compositor (unemployed)
Thomas Jones, s, 12
Winifed,d, 10
Margaret, d, 8
Elleanor, d, 6
John Williams, lodger, 25, waggon cartmaker, b. Trawsfynydd, Merionethshire
all others b. Llangollen
gnu
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The 1911 Canadian Census doesn't quite fit the 1901 one - is this them :
Queen Street, Springhill, Cumberland, Nova Scotia
Charles Chandler, 37, miner b. England
Winifred, 37, b. Wales
Marie W, 11, b. England
Harry Walkins, brder, 29, miner, b. -do-
Neil White, brder, 30, -do-, -do-
I'm still trying to get a feel for the family :-\
gnu
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Wow..
Ok to answer your first post. I'm not sure what some of the information means. It could be my Winifred as she worked at Bedlam Hospital as a nurse and would have resided around there. I'm not sure of the reference to Jessie or what hd Mar 29 means.. but it could be.
About your second post.. I've run into that family too and I'm not discounting it. The problem seems to be that Winifred never spoke of her family in Wales because they treated her so poorly. It is assumed that she was the only child of John and Gwen, but there may have been others Elizabeth could have been her step-mother, but I know she had one sister whom she was close to called Annie Florence or Flo.. who is not appearing on this census. So..that information may be a shot in the dark...
Your third post is correct. That is them..Charles and Winifred, soon after they immigrated, and Marie W (Winifred) is my Great Grandmother -- No idea who Harry Walkins or Neil White were, but this IS my family here....
This is awesome! Thanks!
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The 1881 family does look like them as I think that this is them in 1871:
Bache, Llangollen
RG10/5683/63/44
John Jones, 36, labourer, b. Llanfor, Merionethshire
Gwen, 35, b. Llangwm, Denbs
Ann Jane, 4, b. Llangollen
Thomas, 1, b. -do-
I have ancestors from Llanfor - it's near Bala,
gnu
what hd Mar 29 means.
head of household, married aged 29.
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Just to tell you some other things I do know..
The family either lived in or beside the 'folk lore' house of Mary had a little lamb, although that was later dis-proven. Going through old articles that they kept, there is a picture of this house and it say's our house or something (there was a fire in it, and someone was sending pictures of it to my great great grandparents in Canada (from Wales)).
Also, I just found on an old passport that my Great grandmother Marie lists Liverpool as her place of birth (So my Great Great Grandparents Winifred and Charles must have lived there)
And.. I found the boarding pass used by Winifred Chandler and child when they left Liverpool travelling on the Siberian on Oct 22, 1910.
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Hi
I think our last posts crossed - hope you didn't miss the 1871 census as that is Gwen. It also confirms the 1881 family.
gnu
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hmm maybe...
The 1871 Census states Gwen - The 1881 States Elizabeth - which could indicate that Elizabeth is Winifred's Step-mother. However, Ann Jane is showing on the 1871 census and not the 1881 census which could mean she died I suppose, however she was 4 years old on the 1871 census, so I'm not sure. It is also possible that the older children on the 1881 Census actually belonged to the second wife Elizabeth ? (If in fact it is his second wife).. what do you think?
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1871 Llangollen
RG10;/ 5683/11/14
Edward Jones Head 60 malster asst b.Bryneglwys
Elizth Jones wife 63 b.Llanarmon
Griffith Edwards grandson 10 scholar b.Llangollen
Is this Griffith the printer compositor from the 1881 census?
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I think the 1871 is the family - you said that Winifred's mother was Gwen and that she died in childbirth - compare brother Thomas and John, the father, on both censuses.
Ann might well have been working away by 1881 - she would be 14 - old enought then.
This might be Gwen and her parents in 1861:
Trawsgoed mawr, Rhos y ? and Nant Heulog, Llangwm
RG09/4310/4/4
Robert Roberts, 63, farmer of 55 acres
Margaret, 62
Hugh, 23
Gwen, 24
Robert Edwards, servant, 11
All b. Llangwm
Have a look through every thing and see if it fits. I don't see a marriage for winifred and Charles so far.
gnu
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Well...maybe this is all accurate. I'm such a sceptic when it comes to Wales because everyone is named the same thing! :)
Having said that, in your experience dealing with Welsh Genealogy, would you say that this is the same family? What you're saying does make a lot of sense.
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I'd say it looks like the same family but, as I said, have a look at it all and see what you think.
I posted before I'd finished on the last post so had to add to it.
gnu
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Your so helpful! :)
I saw to possible errors on the 1881 census. My great grandmother Marie would have been 10 during the 1881 Census, yet she doesn't appear. Also on the 1861 Census of Gwen's family she is showing as aged 24, but on the 1881 Census she is showing as 35..but if it were her on the 1861 census she'd be showing as 45..
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Could you check the dates of all the people you've mentioned because your last posting doesn't fit what you said earlier.
Winifred was b 1871 to John and Gwen. Gwen died and John remarried
Winifred married Charles and had Marie Winifred circa 1901. I don't think she was around in 1881.
gnu
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Summary of the census finds so far:
This might be Gwen and her parents in 1861:
Trawsgoed mawr, Rhos y ? and Nant Heulog, Llangwm
RG09/4310/4/4
Robert Roberts, 63, farmer of 55 acres
Margaret, 62
Hugh, 23
Gwen, 24
Robert Edwards, servant, 11
All b. Llangwm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
in 1871:
Bache, Llangollen
RG10/5683/63/44
John Jones, 36, labourer, b. Llanfor, Merionethshire
Gwen, 35, b. Llangwm, Denbs
Ann Jane, 4, b. Llangollen
Thomas, 1, b. -do-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gwen dies
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
in 1881
Llangollen Fechan, Llangollen
RG11/5540/130/17
John Jones, 47, labourer, Llawr Bettws, Merionethshire
Elizabeth, 46
Griffith Edwards, son, 21, printer compositor (unemployed)
Thomas Jones, s, 12
Winifed,d, 10
Margaret, d, 8
Elleanor, d, 6
John Williams, lodger, 25, waggon cartmaker, b. Trawsfynydd, Merionethshire
all others b. Llangollen
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In 1901:
23 Gorst Street, Everton
RG13/3479/76/25
Winifred Chandler, hd, mar, 29, b. Llangollen
Jessie W, d, 7, b. Liverpool
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The 1911 Canadian Census
Queen Street, Springhill, Cumberland, Nova Scotia
Charles Chandler, 37, miner b. England
Winifred, 37, b. Wales
Marie W, 11, b. England
Harry Walkins, brder, 29, miner, b. -do-
Neil White, brder, 30, -do-, -do-
gnu
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OH..hah you're right..staying organized is half my problem. Yes I was mixing up Winifred and Marie... well you know what.. I'm going to plug this into my tree and try to make sense of it all. You are great!
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I found the 1871 with Ann Jane and Thomas children,no sign of any marriage for John and Gwen though.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Taking in to concideration the son Griffith that I previously mentioned, he has a different surname which may indicate that Gwen had been married before. ;)
Marriage 1867
Llangar/Cynwyd St John
John Jones to either Gwen Edwards or Mary Williams
http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk
Alternative source only gives Gwen Edwards
Corwen, Merionethshire
Jun 1/4 1867
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Great information Maidmarion and WRJones...much appreciated... I'm such a paper person I'm madly writing all of this down! :)
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Hi
There is also a marriage in Bala, which is a civil one.
Gwen Roberts to Robert Edwards 1861.
Modified to there is a note to say *alternative enteries.
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That looks a good match,MM :D :D
I'll do a double check on the 1861 to see if the Robert Edwards was 21 and not 11 :)
added -definiteley 11
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;)
It did cross my mind but no doubt there will be others around ;D
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You guys are godsends!
As I was writing this down... it could be that Winifred who was born in 1871 and not showing on the census was the result of Gwen's death. I do know that she did not know her mother, or at least her mother died when she was very young... so Winnifred being 10 on the 1881 census with Elizabeth makes perfect sense.
This is so great... !
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Can anyone find Winifred on the 1891 - I missed that one and I've got to go soon.
gnu
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Hi
It might be of interest that Gwen, short for Gwenffrewi, is the Welsh equivalent of Winifred.
I've come across examples of a person being recorded as Gwen in one Census, and Winifred in another.
Emyr
Modified - typing error corrected 'a other' to 'another'.
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Thanks EmyrBorth! I will record that in my tree!
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I've not got a good match for Winifred in the 1891 but this looks like it might be sister Ann Jane in the 1881:
15 Oak Street, Llangollen
RG11/5541/20/34
Household of Morris Roberts, joiner.
Ann Jane Jones, servant, single, 14, domestic servant, b. Llangollen
gnu
Thanks Emyr - I knew about the names - had friends and relatives who used both - and have borne that in mind in my searches. A good shout for non-Welsh searchers though.
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Thanks Gnu..it would explain why Ann Jane isn't showing up on the 1881 census. I wonder if the Household of Morris Roberts is related to Gwen?
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I wonder if the Household of Morris Roberts is related to Gwen?
It' possible but very very unlikely. I have a Roberts line and it comes from the same broad area but it's not related to your line.
Welsh surnames are a bit of a nuisance really - Roberts is just son of Robert - way back in the post-patronymic days. At one stage i felt very please to not have any Jones lines - none, that is, until I got to the great grandparents. Now I have 8 separate Jones lines; none of which are related.
gnu
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Interesting...but it sure makes it hard to research! :)
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Jut a bit more before I go to my bed :)
I was Googling Ty issa Farm - of Mary had a little lamb fame (not proven) and came up with this query. Some of it fits with what we've found ,parts don't. Anyway, I've not looked through it all but it might be worth you reading it:
http://boards.ancestry.com/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=1621&p=localities.britisles.wales.den.general
gnu
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Thanks Gnu... have a great night! I really appreciate all your efforts.. :)
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Hi Heather
Are you sure of Charles's middle name?
I've found this marriage, which is about the only one that seems to crop up at the approx correct time:
Dec q 1895, Godstone, Surrey v 2a p 358
Charles Henry Chandler and Winnifred Jonis or Jouis are on the same page. Both Jouis and Jonis are recorded in the index.
you did say:
She married my Great Great Grandfather Charles James Chandler in about 1895 in Wales or England
gnu
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I'm also wondering about the 1901 entry. Marie Winifred was born Dec q, 1899, West Derby (a part of Liverpool), so she should show in the 1901 census. So far, I've not found her in England or Wales - even a search on Chandler without a first name b.1900 +/- 2 years , doesn't bring anyone up that looks like her.
I'm now pretty sure that the Jessie W Chandler with Winifred on the 1901 is your Marie but the enumerator got the age wrong from the original schedule - instead of 1 he interpreted it as 7. I have checked the page and it is written as 7 but these mistakes did happen. The Jessie, I'm not sure of - maybe it was a pet name or, again, the handwriting was so poor that the Marie was mistaken for Jessie.
As an example of the Marie/Jessie confusion, I've just written Marie with a loopy M, as they used to do, and it could be interpreted as Jessie, maybe - see attached.
gnu
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Hi Gnu,
I had for some time had my research showing as Charles Henry Chandler. My Grandmother however showed me a document that showed him as Charles James Chandler. I can't for the life of me figure out if this is a legal document or not, I will have to follow up on that... Your take on the census for Winnifred Jones could be accurate. I think they could have called her Winnie... and yes, I could see how perhaps a 1 could be intrepreted for a 7. Interesting. I suppose when you look at these things for long enough you see common errors. You're 'signature' looks like it could read either way as well.
Some time ago I found the same marriage for Chandler and Jouis that you're speaking of, it was the closest thing I could find... I really have to figure out where Charles James came from...
Thanks Gnu!
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I have tried to post an excerpt from a local paper on here but the file is too large.
It is from Dec 1866 and speaks of a fire at Eirianallt Fawr a farm in the occupation of Mr J Roberts.
I can forward it to you if you supply me with an email address.
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Is the Eirianallt mentioned in Berwyn Llangollen? As I live there now and I am trying to find info and pictures about the house.
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Hi Gene Genius, very interested in seeing that article.
My email is (*)
Thanks!
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I have e mailed you the clip Heather. :)
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Thank YOU!! Very cool! I'm telling you though, this family makes me crazy! lol...
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I know that feeling. Did your family actually live at Eirianallt in Llangollen?
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As far as I can tell; and from the information I have, I'm assuming that they did in fact live in Eirianallt. Having said that however like I mentioned above, nothing seems to be a for sure with this family, they elude me! :)
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Well if you do ever find out for sure please let me know as I am having trouble with the history of the house.
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Will do.
My grandmother has an article that was sent to her mother from a relative in Wales. I'm not sure if the article is actually about the fire (I don't have it and my grandmother just related it over the phone). On the top of the article someone has written to my great grandmother saying "This is your old house" -- next time I'm in the province that my Grandmother lives, I will ask to see it. I'm going in August, so I can let you know.
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Yes please Heather that would be great, thank you. ;D
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There are initials on the house which says "J E M 1789"