RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Marcella Paget on Tuesday 01 November 11 04:59 GMT (UK)
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I have heard from two different sources that people going to Ireland to research their family have been denied access to records (even churchyard headstones for example) by "the authorities" and forced to hire an (expensive) "researcher" to do it all for them. Does anybody know what this is about? Is it all over Ireland or only in certain counties? The National Library of Ireland seems to welcome family historians, according to their website.
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I have never come across anyone being "blocked" from doing Irish research at Irish research locations.
I am Dublin based which gives me an advantage to accessing records and I have never had a problem at any research institution; in approaching cemeteries, churches, etc. the only problem I have encountered in is looking for a baptism record of a child that was adopted; I have always felt there was a notation that I was not given based on the conversation I had, I also needed a reference from another parish before I was given the record.
What may have happened is, that the people that you refer to, while on a short break in Ireland, were really being told "finding information in Irish Records is difficult and time consuming and may not happen in a short break, hiring someone to complete the task may be more beneficial and rewarding"
You can spend a day going through records and still not find what you are looking for or hit the jackpot and complete a branch of a family. Irish records are scarce and mainly paper copies, although this is rapidily improving. To do research yourself you need time; you need to know names and variants of the name; dates of birth with bands of error and the parish a person came from when looking before 1900.
See in Ireland Resources : http://www.rootschat.com/links/0gas/
If you create a basic tree of your family, and fill in as much as you can from on-line records and family stories/history; use this to make a list of the parish locations you want to research and specfic names you will find your research will be easier and more productive.
I hope that this helps especially as most places here are welcoming and helpful, but they will be realistic if your search will take longer than your time available
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What records were these people blocked access to ?
The various records are held by different institutions and in different locations (e.g. National Library, National Archives, RCB Library etc), and some originals are not available to the public - but copies and microfilms are.
Whilst most graveyards are open to the public, a few require an appointment with a caretaker, and some older ones are now on private land so you permission from the owner to access them.
Shane
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Thank you both for your replies. I'm relieved to hear that this isn't some widespread policy. I've done a lot of preparation for my visit to Ireland and most of the resources I need to consult in are held in Dublin. I won't be turning up in a village expecting major advances in my research, but like to think I'd be allowed to read churchyard memorials and parish registers if only held locally. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone else with some experience of local research in Ireland as it's a long way to go from Australia to find such prohibitions and as I say, I have heard of two different visitors being warned off doing their own research.
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If you want to post the names (and denomination) of the parishes you are researching we can check the references and availability for you if you wish
Shane
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One thing that I would suggest it that once in Ireland and you know the names of the churches you wish to visit, do yourself a favour and give them a call beforehand.
They may, time allowing, be able to give you access to the record books they have. They will also be able to advise/guide to which part of the churchyard your Ancestors are buried and also if there is a headstone. Nothing worse than spending hours looking for non-existant stones/memorials (been there, not seen it and left very frustrated).
Rather like a boy scout you must be prepared.
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http://www.genuki.org.uk/
this should help
sylvia
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http://www.genuki.org.uk/
this should help
sylvia
Actually, the above site may not be that much use- certainly for my area there are links to sources which no longer exist, much information that's not posted there, etc.
In over 30 years of Irish research I've never been refused information from church records in local custody (although one clergyman would only read out the details for the information I asked rather than letting me see the actual register- his successor on the other hand let me take the index home and then return to see any records I wanted).
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Totally agree with what you are being told here. I have never in 30+ years been refused access to records, and find Irish archives very friendly. It is vital to contact clergymen well in advance as you may just be unlucky if you turn up and they are away on the day or have a busy schedule of funerals etc It is important to understand the parish and townland system, and the dates of available records, as it can be very time-consuming to establish this info, if you don't have it sorted before you come.
Could you let us know what records people were unable to accsss? I really would hate to think that people had a bad experience here. I have had relatives visit from various continents, and they never encountered a problem, - so I am wondering what experience your contacts had, and what problems arose.
If you would like to post your planned research here, I am sure you will get lots of help here.
PM
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I am now wondering if perhaps these people went to one of the County Family History Centres, not understanding what they are and how they work. They are not public archives, but research services, very unlike the National Library or National Archive, and you cannot conduct your own searches there, as far as I know, though its been years since I was in one. They do the searches, and there is a fee involved, or at least they did back then. All their records are available on the rootsireland.ie website. I may be totally wrong here, but I was really racking my brains on this one.
http://www.wicklow.ie/familyhistorycentre/ is my local one, to give you an idea.
PM
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Thanks all of you for being so responsive and so helpful. It's reassuring that so many of you find this baffling. It certainly sounded weird to me. I bet that pastmagic is on the money here. An inexperienced researcher could easily make that mistake. I'll certainly take the advice to email or phone ahead if I want to consult local sources and am looking forward to spending a week buried in the archives in Dublin and especially the National Library which holds many relevant books and newspapers which are seemingly unobtainable in Australia. Thanks again.
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The church records of most of the parishes in South Tipperary are not available in the National Library, and are not available on www.rootsireland.ie .
The only way to access these records seems to be by getting the South Tipperary Family History Centre to conduct very expensive searches of their archives.
In the National Library, I was told that I should write to the appropriate diocese to get permission to view the records, but when I did this they responded by saying that I should re-direct my enquiries to the South Tipperary Family History Centre.
I have only come across this problem in South Tipperary, and would love for someone to explain to me the reason or logic behind this.
Also, are there other counties where this happens?
So, Marcella, I think there are some cases where difficulties do occur, but it is not the norm. I would recommend that you use the free-search facility on the rootsireland website to identify in which parishes and in which years you are likely to find the records that you are looking for.
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My understanding is the Church of Ireland records up to disestablishment are Public Records and therefore one has the legal right to freely view them...from memory Pre1874 records. So, locally held C of I records should be viewable.
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My understanding is the Church of Ireland records up to disestablishment are Public Records and therefore one has the legal right to freely view them...from memory Pre1874 records. So, locally held C of I records should be viewable.
I think jud72 might be refering to Catholic records not C of I.
Andy
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Just to clarify this about Church of Ireland records-
My understanding is the Church of Ireland records up to disestablishment are Public Records and therefore one has the legal right to freely view them...from memory Pre1874 records. So, locally held C of I records should be viewable.
Under the constitution of the Church of Ireland, ALL BMD records are still public records (even those after disestablishment in 1871). Where records in local custody are not available (in any form) in a "Public repository" such as PRONI, the clergyman must make them available to members of the public. However under the constitution there is a scale of fees payable and searches are to be conducted under the supervision of the clergyman at a time suitable to him/her. Most clergy waive the fee unless a certified copy of the record is required. The basic statutory fees are £12 (20 Euro) for a search (£19 per hour if conducted by the clergyman on your behalf - although he/she is under no statutory obligation to offer this service) and £6 for a certified copy of the register entry, although reduced fees are available for certain statutory purposes.
(Thanks to akanex2 for this information)
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Yes, I did mean Catholic records. Forgot to mention that.
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I think it’s very important to emphasise to anyone proposing to visit a church to see parish records that they need to contact the church in advance. I was in a graveyard in Co. Antrim recently when I was approached by a couple from New Zealand who had turned up unannounced on a weekday and were very disappointed to find the church locked, and apparently no way of gaining access that day.
And the parish records are often not kept in the church anyway. I know of one church locally where the older records are in the Presbyterian Historical Society in Belfast, another where the priest keeps them in the parochial house and a third where, though the records are in the church, they are in a fireproof safe to which only a couple of people have access.
With regard to the Church of Ireland fees, a Rector that I know does charge simply for access to the records, as well as for copies. I can confirm that the rate is £12 an hour, though some flexibility is shown about this, and it is often rounded down to £10. Most parish records in Northern Ireland and some adjacent counties have been copied and can be seen free in PRONI, so that’s a way of avoiding that charge, but a few parishes have not been copied and so inspecting them at the church/vicarage is then the only option.
Most Ministers, Priests & Rectors in Ireland get rather more genealogical enquiries than they can cope with. When you phone up to make an appointment you often hear a little intake of breath when you say why you are phoning. They don’t all welcome the enquiries and some have indicated it interferes with what they see as their proper pastoral work. (One Minister showed me a letter in which the writer asked for copies of all birth and marriage entries for a particular surname, since the church records began. You can imagine how much work that might have involved). A parish priest near me once commented that his priority lay with supporting his living parishioners, not the dead ones. I have never heard of anyone being refused permission to access the records but there is sometimes a delay. And I have heard of letters going unanswered. Phone calls, with plenty of advance notice, may prove more effective. Possibly worth bearing in mind when approaching churches.
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The access issue is hit and miss with different parishes. My local parish will not let you see the records, but if you have dates they can look them up for you. (Not always realistic- sometimes you need to see the records to get the dates!!!) But, the reason for this is quite simple. There are sixteen pages missing from the 1864 to 1954 birth register relating to dates from 1861 to around 1880. It seems someone doing some research quite a while ago, took it upon themselves to rip out the full pages with their family records. This has left huge gaps for all the rest of us attempting to research within these dates. Also, the last time I did see the records, - before the ban on public access - the pages were getting thumbmarked and grubby. I understand the present priests reluctance to let them get degraded further
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Pity they won't let a parishioner put them on a database/spreadsheet.....
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The church records of most of the parishes in South Tipperary are not available in the National Library, and are not available on www.rootsireland.ie .
The only way to access these records seems to be by getting the South Tipperary Family History Centre to conduct very expensive searches of their archives.
In the National Library, I was told that I should write to the appropriate diocese to get permission to view the records, but when I did this they responded by saying that I should re-direct my enquiries to the South Tipperary Family History Centre.
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If you are refering to the parish records of the dioces of Cashel and Emly - they are now available on microfil in the National Library - up to about 2/3 yrs ago they were unavailable.
Annclare
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Just thinking back on thirty years of libraries, archives, and records and graveyards and buildings and landscapes in Ireland, France, England and Argentina. I never actually met an unhelpful person. Says something about the territory!
PM
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The church records of most of the parishes in South Tipperary are not available in the National Library, and are not available on www.rootsireland.ie .
The only way to access these records seems to be by getting the South Tipperary Family History Centre to conduct very expensive searches of their archives.
In the National Library, I was told that I should write to the appropriate diocese to get permission to view the records, but when I did this they responded by saying that I should re-direct my enquiries to the South Tipperary Family History Centre.
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If you are refering to the parish records of the dioces of Cashel and Emly - they are now available on microfil in the National Library - up to about 2/3 yrs ago they were unavailable.
Annclare
That is excellent news! Thank you very much for the information.
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The only way to access these records seems to be by getting the South Tipperary Family History Centre to conduct very expensive searches of their archives.
I have had the problem at both North and South Tipperary Family History Centres. I really do not like that organisation
Basically these so called family history centres do block you from doing your own research and wish to sell you expensive researchers, and I would think that is where the original story arose. I have seen the books I want on their shelves and they refused to let me look at them
As long as you avoid these places, then you should be able to access most records (as long as you can find who has them, or as long as they exist).
It would probably save you a lot of leg work if you started with the fiches at the Nat Library of Ireland.
http://www.nli.ie/en/family-history-introduction.aspx
will get you started. They have a desk there specially to help you.
Get a parish map and make a list of the parishes you are interested in, then research online what years are available and where to read them.
Quite honestly it is no good turning up at a parish, as the records may not be there, or difficult to access as you have to track down whoever has them.
Having said all that, you will find most people very welcoming. I can recommend the Local History Centres in the Country Libraries - again research online to find where they are and when they are open. They do not have parish records but are excellent sources of books and papers and information at a local level
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Thanks corisande, That sounds just like the experiences that were described to me by two different friends who went to Ireland and I wanted to be forearmed as it were. I'm planning to do most of my research in Dublin, and already have books from the NLI ordered to be ready for me when I get there. I'm very impressed with the helpfulness of the NLI people. I've had overnight responses to three emails I've sent to different sections there. I'll also be consulting material held at the National Archives and the Cancelled Land Books held at the Valuation Office. I don't think I've quite got to grips with the whereabouts of the parish records I'll need. It's hard to tell exactly what parish (COI) and what is and isn't available via Ancestry etc., but I have a couple of days to work that out before I leave.
I might go to take photos of a couple of memorials and ancestral homes in Crossmolina and Enniscrone, but as you say, I'm not expecting to learn much locally as my family left Ireland nearly 150 years ago.
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I don't think I've quite got to grips with the whereabouts of the parish records I'll need. It's hard to tell exactly what parish (COI) and what is and isn't available via Ancestry etc., but I have a couple of days to work that out before I leave.
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I dont believe you will find that many CofI parish records in the the National Archives. They do have a few, but most are held in the Representative Church Body Library in Rathfarnham.
Shane
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Gosh that was quick shanew147! Thanks for putting that library on my radar. I've just located it in google maps and will work the parish records issue through over the next day or two.
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If you post the names of the CofI parishes you are interested in I can probably figure out where any historic records are held - if they survive. i.e. Representative Church Body Library, National Archives, or Local Custody.
To work out the Civil parishes for towns and townland see the database at www.thecore.com/seanruad (Church of Ireland parishes are usually the same as the civil parish)
Shane
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You're all so helpful! I'm being dragged off to see a movie right now, but will take up your suggestion this afternoon (Australian Eastern Standard Summer Time) :)
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I dont believe you will find that many CofI parish records in the the National Archives. They do have a few, but most are held in the Representative Church Body Library in Rathfarnham
I have found the Nat Archives very good for C of I Parish records, and have spent a lot of time there examining them. I have been to Rathfarnham too.
In my opinion you are better off going to Nat Archives first, before attacking the place in Rathfarnham (Rathfarnham were not that helpful when I went there, and if you are a visitor to Dublin it is out of the way)
What you can do is check with Nat Archives what are available - the list should be online. See how many of the parishes you are interested in are there, then email Rathfarnham with specific questions on the missing ones to see if they have them. Or you can do it the easy way and let Shane come up with the answer ;)
I stand to be corrected, but I thought Nat Archives had on microfiche exactly the same as Rathfarnham. You could email Rathfarnham with that as a question.
It has always struck me as a little bizarre that Catholics and Protestants are separated in death as in life in Ireland, with one set of records in Nat Library and the other in Nat Archives. Anyway make sure you go to the right place for the ones you want. And bureaucracy being what it is, you need a completely different ID for NAI than for NLI. Take you that you do need to go through the hoops of getting ID in both places when you arrive, and it can take some time (once you have it , then it is good for years)
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It looks like many of the CofI registers were filmed and are available in the National Archives - never knew that, I'd always gone straight to the RCB Library for CofI records. At one stage there were several parishes I checked where only NAI had copies, not the RCBL, but they have acquired further records from the parishes over the years.
see : http://www.nationalarchives.ie/genealogy/church.html
and a list of films (pdf document) : http://www.nationalarchives.ie/PDF/CofIMicrofilms.pdf
I've had a quick look at the list, to see how it compares to the RCB list, but they are not easy to cross-check. The NAI list is by film reference, the RCB list by county and then alphabetical and also includes dates covered.
Many of the records in the RCBL are originals, which might help for difficult to read registers. They also hold additional items, such as Vestry Minute books and various other reference books.
Shane
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see how it compares to the RCB list, but they are not easy to cross-check.
:-\
The other factor is that many of the C of I records are still with the parish (in other words they have not been sent to RCB nor has anyone filmed them), but the parish no longer exists, so you have to track down who holds the records for the group of parishes. Who said genealogy was easy!
The other thing you have to be wary of is transcriptions (if there are versions in both places) and there being a difference between the copy in the parish and the copy in Dublin.
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One point I forgot to mention - the RCBL had a book to help them keep track of the various records. For a north Dublin parish parish which no longer exists, they were able to tell which church now held the records, what dates were available, and provide contact details etc... Not sure if they used this for all the records, but it looked like it could
Apparently some of the parish register copies sent to the PRO were cut down versions of the complete register - besides omissions and mistakes, details for certain prominent families were deliberately left out...
Shane
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OK, I'm accepting that kind offer. I think these are the CofI parishes I'm most interested in with relevant townlands in parentheses:
In Sligo - Kilglass (Kinard)
In Mayo - Kilmoremoy (Ballina); Crossmolina (Knockglass); Kilfian (Fahy)
In Dublin - Donnybrook (Irishtown); St. Mark's (South Lots)
Also, these two Presbyterian churches:
Adelaide Rd. Dublin;
Cavanaleck, Fivemiletown, Fermanagh
Where can I examine the most complete versions of these registers, preferably in Dublin?
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In case copies of the Presbyterian records are not kept in Dublin, PRONI in Belfast have the following records for Cavanaleck:
P. Cavanaleck Baptisms, 1853-1953; marriages, 1871-1925; session minutes, 1856; marriage notices, 1858 and 1860-83; list of communicants, 1862.
They don't appear to hold Adelaide Rd's records. It may be necessary to contact the Presbyterian Historical Society to enquire where they are held.
www.presbyterianhistoryireland.com/
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Sligo
Kilglass - RCBL b1887-, m1845-1856, d1886- / not on NAI list
Mayo
Kilmoremoy - RCBL b1769-, 1770-, d1770- / NAI - MFCI 35
Crossmolina - RCBL b1768-, 1769-, d1768- / NAI - MFCI 32
Kilfian - RCBL not listed / NAI MFCI 32
Dublin
Donnybrook * - RCBL b1712- , m1712- , d1712- / NAI MFCI 105
St. Mark's* - RCBL b1730- , m1730- , d1733- / not on NAI list
The NAI list doesn't give dates covered by their films.
* Records for St. Mark's are included on www.irishgenealogy.ie
* Separate records for Irishtown are included on www.irishgenealogy.ie bapt. from b1808, marr. from 1824, death/burials from 1824
Shane
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The NAI list is in a bit of a mess, I found a fair number not on their index when I was there ! So you could find that Kilgrass was there, try emailing them, or the parish
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Some earlier Kilglass records here starting 1833 for births:
http://www.puregolduk.com/bren/kilglass_co_sligo3c.htm
Later....
Sorry, see you are interested in Kilglass C of I, not RC. I'll leave this here anyway, in case it is of use to someone else.
PM
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I think they might be RC records ?
Shane
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Snap! was just adding that, penny dropped after I posted...PM
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Thanks all of you, especially Elwyn and Shane. That gives me a good start. One more thing I haven't worked out yet, when Presbyterians lived in Ballina, Mayo in the 1870's, where did they go to church?
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possibly in the current church which is on Walshe Street in the town and dates to the early 1800s
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Ballina Presbyterian Church opened in July 1851 but the congregation started as a mission station attached to Killala when the first services wereconducted in 1835.
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I found this description on line:
The church was founded in 1846. The church building, or meeting house, is located in Walshe Street, directly opposite the former Garda Station. During the Great Famine of 1845-49 and in the subsequent decades the premises were the centre of a great relief effort, co-ordinated by Rev Thomas Armstrong. The building to the left of the church was formerly an orphanage attached to the congregation. The church is T-shaped, a typically Presbyterian design. The congregation meets for worship in the upper storey of the building. The ground floor, once a schoolhouse, now comprises a suite of halls.