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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: johnabbots1 on Monday 31 October 11 13:48 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
Recently discovered my Grandmothers German Birth Certificate (Elly Meyer). It is dated September 1929, Kiel. Took a while to decipher the old German handwriting to discover her fathers name as Bruno Erich Meyer, a coppersmith, who was born in 1905 (date discovered on my Grandmothers British citizenship application 1951). Her mothers name is Emmy (could be anny), Lucia Henriette, nee Hopner. Listed on the Birth Cert is an address Rathausstrasse 1, Kiel.
I have tried most websites, and found nothing of these two ancestors. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Its quite frustrating not being able to track back any further.
I attach my Grandmothers birth Cert in the hope someone can help, even a guide, How do people trace German Relatives. Is there any other forum that may be able to help. Even with the basic's.
Many Thanks,
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Hi
Can't help with the overseas research but was she naturalised? This is the link to the National Archives
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/naturalised-britons.htm
Dawn
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Have you tried the Anglo-German Family History Society? www.agfhs.org.uk
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Previous post:
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,562067.msg4145170.html
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To avoid duplication of replies,this is linked to this posting too,first posted 2 days ago.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,562067.msg4145170.html#msg4145170
Snap Aghadowey ;D
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What posting would that be?
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Hi KGarrad,
Actually have records from Britain, marriage death etc. Problem is Germany. I have posted for help on the euro forum and have not one reply for two weeks. Already, on this forum four people have replied within half an hour. I assumed that having the birth cert, somebody with a German interest may help. Do they have census's do they have marriage records, is there a forum that people are aware of that I may get some help?
Kind Regards,
John
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Snap agadowhey,
I posted that reply as I did not know how to modify my first post. I sent the reply immediatley after I had realised my mistake.
My question to the forum is,
Helo,
Recently discovered my Grandmothers German Birth Certificate (Elly Meyer). It is dated September 1929, Kiel. Took a while to decipher the old German handwriting to discover her fathers name as Bruno Erich Meyer, a coppersmith, who was born in 1905 (date discovered on my Grandmothers British citizenship application 1951). Her mothers name is Emmy (could be anny), Lucia Henriette, nee Hopner. Listed on the Birth Cert is an address Rathausstrasse 1, Kiel.
I have tried most websites, and found nothing of these two ancestors. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Its quite frustrating not being able to track back any further.
I attach my Grandmothers birth Cert in the hope someone can help, even a guide, How do people trace German Relatives. Is there any other forum that may be able to help. Even with the basic's.
Many Thanks
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Dear Carol,8353 ;D
The whole reason I reposted my reasonable request for help on the UK forum was that I suspected I may get help. On the euro forum I had no replies for two weeks.. Is it then not ok to ask a wider audience for help??? I recieved help within ten minutes..
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Both Aghadowey and I have provided the link to your original request dated 22nd October 2011 incase anyone posts a reply on there to the same query.
If you have too many posts in different places on Rootschat asking the same question people tend to get confused and can duplicate their replies.
Carol
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As I mentioned before, I have recieved NO replies on the euro site, that is why I expanded my chances of a helpful reply to other areas of the forum. I also modified my question to a potential helper on the Beginners forum (as I am a beginner). Why then refer people back?????? The people who may help are now confused because they will see the question I sent to the Euro board...
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Hi John,
I live in Germany and thought I might have been able to help you, but I seem to be having difficulty getting my message posted. I'm trying this to see what happens. If my original message (with addresses) is not posted in the next hour or so, I'll try again tonight.
LEP 1950
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Hi Lep1950,
Its great to hear from somebody who may be able to help.
I have some documents from my Father following my Grandmothers death. I am trying desperatley to find a link with her parents, their lives, where they lived etc. Any help will be amazing
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Hi John,
A shortened version of my original reply. I don't know what happened to it.
I rang the Landesarchiv Schleswig Holstein for you and spoke to a woman there. She said that all birth, marriage and death registers are still with the relevant Standesämter. Another possibility of finding out more is to get in touch with the Landeskirchenarchiv.
This is the page of the Standesamt in Kiel:
http://www.standesamt.com/urkunden.php?standesamt_id=4524&q=Standesamt%20Kiel
The page is in German, but on the righthand side you can see "Kontaktadresse". I would write to them with a copy of the certificate you have and ask them to search for a relevant marriage certificate of the parents. Normally a certificate costs about 10 euros. I don't know whether they charge a search fee. You can write to them in English. Almost everyone in Germany speaks fairly decent English.
The other possibility is to write to the Kirchenarchiv and ask about the parish registers:
Address:
Nordelbisches Kirchenarchiv,
Postfach 3449,
24033 Kiel
Telefon: +49 / (0)4 31 / 64 98 60
Telefax: +49 / (0)4 31 / 68 08 36
E-Mail: archiv.nka - at - nordelbien.de (I've changed the at-sign in case that was the reason my message was not posted).
Again, I don't know whether a fee or a donation is applicable.
I couldn't make out the religion on the birth certificate. it seemed to start with a "d", which is strange. It doesn't seem to be "evangelisch" or "katholisch". I presume the parish registers mentioned above would only apply for German Protestants.
This is the email address of the town archives in Kiel. I don't know whether they have any relevant records:
Stadtarchiv-at - LHStadt.kiel.de
As I said above, for "at" use the usual sign.
There are hardly any parish registers online in Germany. Only Baden-Württemberg has its 19th century parish registers online for free. Mind you, hardly anyone can read them. I've taught myself but it's still very difficult.
I've made a note of the names and will keep my eyes open when I'm on German sites. If I can help you in any other way, let me know.
Best wishes,
LEP 1950
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"Diss" will, I suppose, refer to religious dissidents of some kind. However, the birth certificate of Ellie was issued expressly for a "Taufe" (baptism). In Germany you can get different copies for different purposes. I suppose, therefore, that the family were Christian dissidents.
I've been messing about on some sites concerning Kiel and I read some very good reports about very willing helpers in the Stadtarchiv. One person wrote that a woman working there had copied him his grandfather's "Arienausweis". Although the purpose of these documents was horrible - to prove one was of Aryan descent - they often go back several generations. I think it is worth writing to them and asking for help, but don't forget to ask how much it would cost before they start looking. As I said one certificate is usually about 10 euros. Here's the address:
Landeshauptstadt Kiel
Stadtarchiv
Rathaus
Fleethörn 9
24103 Kiel
Telefon: 0431 / 901-3422
Fax: 0431 / 901-63423
Geöffnet (Open)
Montag und Dienstag: 8.30 - 16 Uhr (Monday and Tuesday)
Donnerstag: 8.30 - 18 Uhr (Thursday)
E-Mail: stadtarchiv (at) kiel.de
Marriage certificates seem to be just in the Standesämter. However, they will also have the names of both parents of the bride and groom.
I'd love to know how you get on and if I discover anything else interesting, I'll post.
LEP 1950
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Her mothers name is Emmy (could be anny),
It's Anny as written.
Dissident here means the same as konfessionslos = non-confessional, i.e. he didn't have, or maybe just didn't declare, a religion. Perhaps he was never baptised, or was pulling the old no-religion trick to avoid paying Kirchensteuer (church tax).
Adrian
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Hi John,
I agree with Apwright that the name of the mother is "Anny" (probably baptised Anna). I've looked at the certificate again properly. The father's religion is "diss" but the mother seems to be "evangelisch". Since the certificate was issued "gültig nur zum Zweck der Taufe" (valid only for purposes of baptism), one can presume that Elly was baptised, unless a whole batch of certificates was issued pro forma. I just remember that we had various ones when my children were born.
By the way, Apwright, couldn't "diss" refer to Methodists or Baptists? Or could Bruno have been Jewish? I read somewhere on the Internet about a Jewish schoolteacher, whose birth certificate said "diss" as religion.
John, I still think you should turn to the Stadtarchiv in Kiel. Apparently they produced 11 certificates for someone going back several generations "at a reasonable cost". I wish I could hep you, but I live in Berlin not Kiel.
Best wishes,
LEP 1950
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why do you not ask at the registry-office/Standesamt in Kiel for more infos. they have made in 1929 the document you have:
Standesamt Kiel in Schleswig-Holstein:
http://www.hochzeit-in-sh.de/Standesamt-Kiel/Standesamt-Kiel.html
the adress Rathausstr.1 think is the adress they lived. Wohnung = apartment:
http://maps.google.at/maps?hl=de&sugexp=kjrmc&cp=17&gs_id=2k&xhr=t&q=Rathausstr.1+Kiel&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1016&bih=564&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
fathers name > Bruno Erich Meyer, occupation Kupferschmied/copper-smith,
religion diss. = dissident = in german "andersdenkend"
http://www.understandingyourancestors.com/wea/religion.aspx
"Im 18. Jahrhundert bezeichnet der Begriff denjenigen, den keiner anerkannte. Seit dem 19. Jahrhundert ist es jener, der keiner Religionsgemeinschaft angehört. Auch die Mitglieder der deutschkatholischen Vereine, die sogenannten Deutschkatholiken, sowie die protestantischen Freien Gemeinden, die sogenannten Lichtfreunde, die sich 1856 mit den Deutschkatholiken zum Bund Freireligiöser Gemeinden Deutschlands zusammenschlossen, wurden offiziell als Dissidenten bezeichnet. Üblich war der Begriff in Deutschland mindestens bis in die 1930er Jahre.
In the 18th Century, the term those whom no one recognized. Since the 19th Century, was one who belongs to no religion. The members of the German Catholic societies, the so-called German Catholics and the Protestant free churches, the so-called Friends of Light, which merged in 1856 with the German Catholics for Free federal Religious communities in Germany were officially called dissidents. the common term in Germany was usual at least until the 1930s."
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissident
mothers name > Anny Lucia Henriette geb./nee Höpner,
at religion looks like k.K. = keine Konfession = unaffiliated (no religion)
so her father will have been from one of this stated groups i think.
so-called German Catholics, the Protestant free churches, the so-called Friends of Light, which merged in 1856 with the German Catholics for Free federal Religious communities.
on top of document:
Gültig nur zum Zweck der Taufe = valid only for the purpose of baptism
Bescheinigung über Eintragung eines Geburtsfalles = certificate of registration of a birth case
think was possible used for a baptism of the child....?
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Dear Cartinthian girl,
The Standesamt address you've given is only if you yourself want to get married. I gave John the link above as it's the address to apply for "Urkunden" (documents).
It's the father who has "diss" next to his name. What looks like "ff" is "ss". I can't quite make out what it says next to the mother although I can generally read Sütterlin handwriting, but I think it means "evangelisch". But I wouldn't put my hand in the fire for it!! The first letter is not a "k", but looks like a Sütterlin small 'e' and "keine Konfession" would be abbreviated "k.K" (one small 'k' and one large 'K') and they look a bit different. As I said above, this certificate was issued for a baptism.
Dear John,
It seems like several people are trying to help you, but you are not reacting. Should we still keep searching?
LEP 1950
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Hi KGarrad,
Actually have records from Britain, marriage death etc. Problem is Germany. I have posted for help on the euro forum and have not one reply for two weeks. Already, on this forum four people have replied within half an hour. I assumed that having the birth cert, somebody with a German interest may help. Do they have census's do they have marriage records, is there a forum that people are aware of that I may get some help?
Kind Regards,
John
Sometimes we have to be very patient. I have had replies to questions more than a year after I made the original post!
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Hi again John,
Have found out a little bit more about the records in Kiel. The town archives (Stadtarchiv) hold
birth registers older than 110 years, marriage registers older than 80 years and death registers older than 30 years.
More recent records are in the Standesamt (registry office) in Kiel.
A copy of a certificate costs 7,40 euros, but if you want them to do a search for you without giving them exact information, the fee quoted is 12,50 euros for fifteen minutes. This is not cheap, but seems similar to other places.
You can, of course, search the records in the town archives yourself for free in the Lesesaal (reading room) and take photos with a digital camera. Apparently there are staff there to help.
So if you fancy a trip to Kiel...
Opening times are Monday and Tuesday from 8.30am to 4pm and Thursday from 8.30am to 6pm.
LEP 1950
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dear LEP1950
"More recent records are in the Standesamt (registry office) in Kiel. "
what i have given the link....
i also can read generally Sütterlin, Kurrent and so on (learned some also at school) because i´m german-lingual and live in a german-lingual country. have many of my ancestors documents in handwrittings.
http://homepage.univie.ac.at/walter.dietrich/deutsche.html
at religion of the mother think is - how i stated kK = shortened "keine Konfession".
evangelische Konfession would be shortened in this way > evang.
a Standesamt always has - as the registry-office for all - the files for birth, marriages and deaths. possible the one you stated is an central archive. but normally also this Standesamt directly must have it. i know it in no other way in Germany and Austria.
in fact it is the same you have given this other link
under below See also:/Siehe auch:
Standesamt Kiel Geburtsurkunde online anfordern
Kiel registry office to request birth certificate online
http://www.standesamt.com/Standesamt-Kiel/Geburtsurkunde-anfordern-4524
Contact: http://www.standesamt.com/Standesamt-Kiel/4524
http://www.kiel.de/rathaus/service/index.php?tsaid_page=detail&tsaid_ID=8967391&tsaid_CLASS=Lebenslage&QRY_ID=9529600&calling_page=&tsaid_dclp=579700d5a41c3bf77969766ca076d536
click on >> E-Mail Kontakt aufnehmen for getting online-contact-formular -
but better how i stated in postings before > http://www.hochzeit-in-sh.de/Standesamt-Kiel/Standesamt-Kiel.html
here you can directly contact a person of this office about e-mail.
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Dear LEP1950, Carinthiangirl and Apwright,
Thanks ever so much for your help in my quest to understand more about my German Ancestors, I really can't believe the efforts that you have all made.
I have just been reading all your comments and the info is certainly helpful. I would love to visit Kiel LEP1950, the only issue being that I have recently emigrated from London to Sydney Aus.
I have not been at my computer for 2 days as I have been up to Queensland for work. Please, please keep up your search, there is an obvious time lag (its midnight here now), but I check the site everyday and again I am so thankful for the help.
I aim to contact the Standesamt for any info they may hold, I will keep you up to date with any response. Thanks for the links LEP/Carinthiangirl, I have spent many an hour searching the web for any info on records held in Kiel, with absolutley no luck at all. Hopefully the Standesamt or Stadtarchiv may hold something relevant.
I have also been given an Impchlein Cert (Vacc. Cert, I think) any ideas what it maybe for? See attached. Thanks all..
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Dear John,
Have only got a minute as I have to go out. I presume you mean "Impfschein", but I couldn't see one attached. Scan in anything you have. We might be able to find clues in the documents.
By the way, the person who got 11 documents from the "Stadtarchiv" said they were very accommodating regarding the price. I take this to mean that they didn't charge the full amount.
Dear Carinthian girl,
I'm sorry if you feel "angegriffen", I didn't mean to offend you and I'm sure you want to help like I do. I, too, am bilingual and have spent almost all my life in Berlin. Although I'm interested in old forms of German handwriting and can usually read them - at least until 1800 (only difficulty sometimes being surnames), I am having difficulty deciphering the religion of the mother. But I don't think the abbreviation kK would be written together. It's not one word. I wondered whether the official was mixing letters. Mostly, he uses a Latin "e", but the second letter of "Henriette" looks a bit similar to the beginning of the religion. I thought (was hoping) it was an "e" followed by a fancy "v", which would mean that a baptism might be found in the church archives. If the first letter were a "k", could the second one be the open "a" usual in Sütterlin and mean "katholisch"? Admittedly, this wouldn't be the usual abbreviation as the "th" would be missing. I would really be interested in finding out what it stands for.
Gruss,
LEP 1950
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I'd say the mother's religion does indeed read "ev." for evangelisch. It's a pretty common Kurrent & Sütterlin "v" form in my experience - same loop at the bottom as the "y" in "Anny". If it were "k.K." the word "Religion" should be crossed out as it is for the father - though of course the registrar could simply have forgotten to delete it.
Das Adressbuch der Stadt Kiel 1914 lists one F. Karl Friedrich Höpner, ship's rigger (Takler), living at Rathausstr. 1, who could be Anny's father.
http://forum.ahnenforschung.net/showthread.php?t=15814
It also lists 2 civic officials (father & son?) called Barckhausen, Friedrich G.B. and Otto G.F. residing at Friesenstr. 9. Your registrar is possibly Otto, though the second initial in the signature is a "V" - perhaps they were von Barckhausen.
The Impfgesetz (Vaccination Law) of 1874 (still in force in the 1960s according to one I've found on the net!) required parents/guardians to keep the Impfscheine of their children as proof they had been vaccinated, and they were fined if this was not done. Schools were obliged to check that each child's vaccinations were up to date.
http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Impfgesetz
Adrian
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> If the first letter were a "k", could the second one be the open "a" usual in Sütterlin and mean "katholisch"? Admittedly, this wouldn't be the usual abbreviation as the "th" would be missing. <
don´t think someone wrote ka for a catholic confession. have never seen in a german-lingual country. normally is written then r.k. or röm.kath. and also in Germanys north catholic people very rare. ;D most in Germanys south to find.
now we will see what johnabbots1 will find out. hope he will tell us his findings specially also about the confession of this ancestors, so we can get light into darkness of the old handwritings. ::)
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That was a good find in the address book, Adrian!! I'd tried to find something myself but I only found address books that were much more recent. I wonder what the "F" stands for? I don't think people were called Florian and Fabian in those days! I can only really think of Franz, Ferdinand, Friedhelm or a northern name like Frithjof (??). You don't think the 'F' could just be 'Firma' do you? There are quite a few Karl-Friedrichs on familysearch.org, but no one with an 'F' in front of the name. I think it's very likely that you have found Anny's father, but, of course, he may have been her grandfather and the young married couple (Bruno and Anny) took over the grandparents' home.
Google.de refuses to come up with any "VON Barckhausen" !!! The name seems to be Barckhausen.
By the way, John, what is the Rathausstraße in Kiel today is not what you need if you want to know where your ancestors lived. Apparently, today's Rathausstraße has only been called that since 1936 and was previously the "Gasstraße". The previous Rathausstraße was built in 1902 and is in the district of Gaarden-Süd and Kronsburg. Since 1936 it's been called "Oldesloer Straße". I don't know whether the house numbers have remained the same.
I think we'd all love to know how you get on. I'm always getting involved with other people's ancestors, mainly because I have hit a massive brick wall with my own great-great-grandfather, who just suddenly appears out of nowhere. My only consolation is that I've managed to get back to 1654 with another line.
So, post all the info you have!!
LEP 1950
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It's me again!! I was just going to close down the computer when I made another find. I found the Kiel address book for 1934.
It lists Karl Hoepner as a labourer (Arbeiter) living on the first floor of Rathausstraße 1
Link: http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/w/index.php?title=Datei%3AKiel-AB-1934.djvu&page=179
and
Bruno Meyer, Kupferschmied (coppersmith), living in Iltisstraße 6, on the ground floor.
http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/w/index.php?title=Datei%3AKiel-AB-1934.djvu&page=281
So, I think Karl was Anny's father and the young people moved out of the parental home, probably as their family got bigger.
So, no more for tonight!! (Promise)
LEP 1950
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P.S. 1940 addresss book Kiel:
Karl Hoepner is an invalid living in the Trauensteinstraße 12 (forgot to note the page number. Sorry! Otherwise same source as below)
Bruno Meyer, coppersmith, Trauensteinstraße 12, ground floor.
http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/w/index.php?title=Datei%3AKiel-AB-1940.djvu&page=326
So, Karl-Friedrich Hoepner is definitely Anny's father, John!!
Linda
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That is Fantastic, Not only have you found Bruno, but Anny's Father. I must admit looking at the old German writing "sutterlin"? i would never have found any of these records and links. Going to try to contact the Record offices tonight. Will try by email first, if not I will give them a call. Hope they speak English. LEP1950, no wonder I could not find Rathausstrasse on the maps! I will also try the arienausweis address.
I am going to request Bruno Meyers (1905)/Anny's Birth cert (?), will try the marriage between Bruno and Anny (?), these I guess maybe available at the Standesamt? Carinthiangirl I will try the link contacting a person and see how I get on..
Really cant wait for the weekend to get my teeth into all the info sent by you guys, thanks again LEP1950, APwright and Carinthiangirl. The Impfgesetz was to big to post on this site LEP, I dont have a scanner, any chance I could email this to you. I have quite an extensive UK tree on Ancestry.co.uk, could I send it through that if you are a member? INC. Marriage to My Grandfather and quite a small picture of Bruno (we think).
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Hi John,
Yes, I am a member of ancestry, although I don't have a tree on there, only one on GenesReunited.co.uk. I really think I ought to do one, but I'm so lazy about writing things up. I like finding out more!
Anyway, I've written to you via ancestry.
In the 1934 Kiel address book, there was only one Bruno Meyer, coppersmith, but in the 1940 address book there are two, the other one is a truck driver (Kraftw.führer, Hohenzollernweg 69). This could be just coincidence, but I wondered whether this was Bruno's son (??). On the other hand, if Bruno was born in 1905, wouldn't his son have been too young to be a lorry driver in 1940, only about 17 at the most? Then again, a lot of young men were away as soldiers and so perhaps this was possible. But perhaps this Bruno is Bruno the coppersmith's nephew? All speculation, I know, but sometimes speculation leads you to new finds.
Meyer is unfortunately a very common name. There were quite a lot of them with various spellings in Kiel, quite a few in the Iltisstraße. There were also two other coppersmiths called Meyer (Gustav and Heinrich) in either the 1934 or 1940 address book that I wondered about. But nothing concrete.
So, hope you are lucky with your research in the Standesamt/Stadtarchiv.
LEP 1950
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Hi all,
Please see attached message sent to me from the Standesamt, could I ask for help in translating this reply,many thanks,
Sehr geehrter Herr Abots,
damit wir Ihre Anfrage überhaupt weiter bearbeiten können, benötigen wir als Legitimation eine Kopie Ihres Ausweises (eingescannt als Mailanhang).
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Maren Hannemann
Maren Hannemann
Landeshauptstadt Kiel
Bürger- und Ordnungsamt
-Standesamt-
10.8.1U
21103 Kiel, Fleethörn 26
Zimmer 211
Tel.: (0431) 901-2367
Fax: (0431) 901-742367
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Dear Mr Abbot,
We need a copy of your passport (scanned as e-mail attachment) - for legitimation - before we can process your request further/ at all.
Kind Regards,
etc
It's the usual procedure: some form of identification is needed
(and in Germany the envelope your last electricity bill came in doesn't do the trick !)
regards,
Bob
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Thanks Berlin Bob, shame I havent got a scanner, have to wait until next week. Thanks again.
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Hi John,
have just switched on my computer. I see Berlin Bob has already helped with the translation. But did you write to them in German? Most civil servants in Germany would be capable of asking you in English to send a copy of your passport. Just wondered...
LEP 1950
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Hi,
I wrote my request in English, I did explain that my German is pretty basic.. I was a bit surprised too.
John
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this can occur even more often times that you get answer in german!
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Believe me carinthiangirl, the reply to my request was sent at 0700 german time, quite impressive, as I sent my email at 0300 europe time. That would never happen in the UK or Aus (only on previous enquires from myself). I will scan my passport and see what comes back. I requested quite a lot, but as soon as I get an answer, I will let you know. I sent them my grandmothers Birth Cert. and asked if they could shed some light on the religon.
Still, so impressed about the speed of the response to my enquiry.
Passport will be scanned in Australia, Monday early morning,on the Thanks for your help,
John
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I'm curious how much it will give new info.
hope they keep the speed. ;D
good luck! :)
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Hi John,
I've been looking at the 1914 Kiel address book again and noticed the following:
Meyer
Bruno K. Th., Dreher, Buchholtzstr. 55 (presumably Bruno Karl-Theodor, turner, Buchholtzstr.55)
Bruno was not such a usual name at that time, not like Karl or Friedrich. I'm wondering whether this Bruno could have been your Bruno's father. Of course, he would then also have been "your" Bruno a generation back!! I think it's likely he had some connection with the family, if not Bruno's father, perhaps his uncle.
I wonder what you'll find out.
LEP 1950