RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cheshire => England => Cheshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: *Sandra* on Saturday 29 October 11 09:20 BST (UK)
-
HI Guys,
Wonder if someone could look up 2 birth records for me. Thomas Murray born 1853 Birkenhead and Patrick Murray born 1856 Birkenhead appear on the 1871 Census in Cleator. Cumberland. (I haven't located either of them in 1861)
There are 2 births which could match these 2 young men:- Thomas Murray either March 1853 Wirral 8a 391 or September 1853 8a 374. One of them could be BIR/24/13
Patrick William Murray - June 1856 Wirral 8a 446. The reference BIR/31/40
From the marriage record of Thomas James Murray in September 1877 - Whitehaven. Cumberland - 10b 796 I am hoping that these 2 have the parents Thomas and Joan(na) Murray. (Fingers crossed) Haven't traced these parents either yet. ??? Have got the 2 young men on Census with there wives, families etc.,
Would be really grateful for any assistance on this one.
Thank You very much
Sandra
-
Hiya Sandra.....in the 1881 census Thomas J Murray aged 28 - b 1853 Birkenhead is with his sister Ann I Rowe aged 40 who was born in Bangor Wales..address is 67 Trumpet Rd ,Cleator,Cumberland.
check to see if Ann I Murray b 1840 Bangor,Wales has parents named Thomas / Joan (na)...I`ll see if I can find her babtism .....allan
ADDED...have checked on igi - advanced search , and also Bangor NI ....which to me sounds more feesible with a name like Murray...anyway...no luck, sorry...but at least we know Thomas J Murray b 1853 Birkenhead , had a sister Ann I Murray b 1840/41 in Bangor....although the census says Wales, I wouldn`t rule out Bangor Northern Ireland
allan,
-
HI Allan,
That's another twist, although it says Ann Rowe is the sister of Thomas Murray on the 1881 Census. It was Ann Jane Roberts who married John Roe (spelt slightly different) in Sept 1867 at Whitehaven.
Thomas and Patrick are with her brother Samuel Roberts and his wife Jane on the 1871 Census. Samuel also born 1838 Wales.
Sandra
-
Just found a Census which fits Roberts and Murray in Birkenhead in 1851. A little jumbled.
Thomas Murray aged 29 years. Born Ireland.
Jane Murray aged 35 years. Born Denbighshire. Wales.
Samuel Roberts aged 14 years. Born Denbighshire. Step-Son.
Samuel Roberts (can't decipher this name) aged 9 years. Step-Daughter
Merla Murray aged 10 years. Born Bangor Caenaravonshire. Step-Daughter
Joseph Beck Lodger.
So Merla seems to fit Ann Jane Roberts
Sandra
-
The marriage of Thomas Murray and the baptisms of the Murray children in Cumberland were Catholic - so in the transcription could Jane possible be Joan(na) in latin ???
Sandra
-
Yes Sandra....the latin name for Jane is Johanna (with an h)
allan
-
Blimey - can't believe I found that.
The daughter Samuel Roberts aged 9 years - can you read the name ? is it something like Jeremiah ???
Have you heard of Amblugh. Anghey ( what would be your guess at the place of birth ?)
Sandra
-
Hi
I looked at that 1851 Census last night too, I meant to post it and got side tracked trying to find Ann Jane in 1861....Samuel was already up in Cleator by then.
Ann Jane's age is 40 in 1881 (born abt 1841) but in 1871 it's 25 (born abt 1846)
That 1851, I think the dau age 9 is a name beginiing with J and ending with h, and pssibly, ending in nah. My guess is it's meant to be Joannah - and more likley to be Ann Jane ROBERTS/ROWE than the 10 year old on the Census.
The 10 yr old appears to be written as "Maria" to me
Also, wondered if you had seen this:
http://www.dmm.org.uk/news19/9120718.htm
The inquest into the accident in which Ann Jane's son John died in 1912.
Cheers
AMBLY
-
Hi Ambly,
Yes, think your right about Johannah -
Unfortunately did stumble across the tragic death of John Rowe.
Haven't found any of the family in 1861 though, they have disappeared again. :(
Thank You
Sandra
-
Pretty sure the 9 yr old girl's county pob is Anglesy (ie: Anglesey) but for the town name ??? it looks like Ambleigh or Ambleiyh or Ambluyh........ it doesn't seem like "Amlwch" , but maybe it is meant to be?
Amlwch is in Anglesey, apparently pronounced "Am-look" and is abt 16 miles from Bangor?
Did you see Samuel in 1861 - he's married to Eliza Jane SMITH by then?
RG9 / Piece: 3951 / Folio: 78 / Page _
Cheers
AMBLY
-
Hello,
I hope it is fine to reply to the thread, old as it is, to avoid a duplicate thread. I am a direct descendant of the Murrays and this generation of the family has always been difficult to research. I was hoping to try and obtain more information on the family. Indeed, a few things here are worth mentioning:
- Ann Jane (who was known as Annie) must be the second "Samuel", a dittography error.
- Merla seems to be a daughter of a first marriage of Thomas. This may be to a Mary McMullin, as there exists a marriage between a woman so-named and a Thomas Murray, although I must admit I never gave it much credit and can no longer find the GRO reference - I had crossed it all out as "WRONG" on my family tree.
- I am not too concerned with the misspelling of Amwlch. The enumerator has also written "earand", and I have seen some amusing mistakes over the years in censuses involving people who obviously had thick Irish or Welsh accents - or indeed had chosen fairly original names - which confused the enumerators (like Anna Stacia for Anastasia!). What is more problematic, of course, is that Samuel should not be from Denbighshire and Ann should not be from Amlwch, at least going by the place of birth on later censuses. However, I have long held the suspicion that some enumerators asked "Where are you from?" rather than "Where were you born?"
Each census provides contradictory information, so this is a particularly tough nut to crack, as I said. What's worse is that this man seems every bit as likely to be Thomas J. Murray, but his father is a James Murray, and not the Cheshire Thomas: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/22875679:8767?ssrc=pt&tid=180176113&pid=252347639232. Thomas Murray in the 1851 census is proof, but not absolute proof, so I have never quite been satisfied with leaving the matter closed.
Kind regards,
Sessylt
-
Brief pm sent - servers are unavailable at the moment.
Regards
Sandra