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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: billbir on Thursday 27 October 11 11:49 BST (UK)
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I have Thomas Harris Born 1816 in Tunbridge Wells. I believe that he is the brother of my great great grandmother Eliza Harris born 1813, also in Tunbridge. I know that Eliza moved to Coventry and married Edward Leigh Pearson, a Watchmaker, in 1834. I have found a Thomas Harris living in Coventry, on the 1851 Census and born in Tunbridge, I have therefore assumed that he was persuaded to move from Tunbridge, by Eliza. One of his sons on the 1851 Census is involved with Watchmaking, which also suggests they are connected.
My problem is, that I can find no trace of Thomas on the 1841 Census, or any other than the 1851. As he is my GG Granduncle, I am anxious to trace his and his children's whereabouts. Any help/guidance would be appreciated.
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Hi billbir
Possibility?
1841 HO107 1153 F 28 Pg 11 - Civil Parish Holy Trinity - Address Gas Street
Thomas Harris 25
Maria 30
Philip 4
Phoebe 8mths
All born in County - although I have to mention although you know that your Thomas was from Kent I had an ancestor who in 1841 was shown as being born in said County when in fact I knew that he wasn't :) So it still might be worth investigating further.
Regards
Z :)
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Hi Z
Thanks for the information from the 1841 census however I do not think that it is the same Thomas Harris. On the 1851 census he was married to an A Harris not M for Maria. In 1951 he had one son initial S and one daughter initial P. I believe that the son S was 14 in 1851 so he should've appeared on the 1841 census as well. Thanks for your help in this matter.
Bill
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There is a marriage between an Ann Maria Haymes in Holy Trinity 5 March 1836
and Thomas Harris
Then in 13 October 1836 there is a baby baptised
son of Thomas and Maria Harris at Holy Trinity Coventry
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The baby was a Philip Harris and the information is on the IGI
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Hi billbir
On the 1851 census he was married to an A Harris not M for Maria.
Having carefully looked at the 1851 census I am not convinced that it is an A so decided to dig around a little more and found this ............... see what you think ................
1861 RG9 2206 59 11 - Civil Parish Coventry Holy Trinity - Address 2 Abbotts Lane
Phoebe Haymes Head widow 78 Coventry - Winder
Ann Maria Harris daugh widow 52 Coventry - Filler
Eliza Haymes daugh unmar 48 Coventry - Winder
Phoebe Harris grand daugh unmar 20 Coventry - Winder
IGI Marriage - 5th March 1836 Holy Trinity Coventry Warwick - Ann Maria Haymes and Thomas Harris
Perhaps someone could check this marriage for you to see whether it mentions the father of Thomas and therefore enable you to cross reference these details that you have for Eliza.
Regards
Z :)
To add - Not convinced of the initial S either for his son - as if it wasn't tricky enough to read already ;D
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Hi Z and Lemontree,
Thanks very much for your responses and I do think that we are getting somewhere. As I've mentioned before, the 1851 Census has Thomas born in Tunbridge, so as you say Z, to be sure that I have the right Thomas, I need to know the marriage details which hopefully would say that he was born out of the parish.
As by 1861Ann Maria is by now a widow, it would be useful to find the death of Thomas. Similarly with Philip, I can find no trace of him post 1851 and I cannot find a death either.
Thanks for your involvement, it is very much appreciated.
Bill
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Hello Billbir ,
i know this is unrelated to your Thomas HARRIS query but in your research did you come across a James HARRIS born circa 1849 Tunbridge Wells Kent , however i cannot find a birth for him or on any census as living in Tunbridge Wells but have him on later census living in Pancras.
I know i am clutching at straws !!
kind regards
Brian johnson
West Australia
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Hi Brian,
Hello Billbir ,
i know this is unrelated to your Thomas HARRIS query but in your research did you come across a James HARRIS born circa 1849 Tunbridge Wells Kent , however i cannot find a birth for him or on any census as living in Tunbridge Wells but have him on later census living in Pancras.
I know i am clutching at straws !!
kind regards
Brian johnson
West Australia
Hi Brian,
No Brian, I have not come across James Harris, in my research, until you pointed him out. However, I have had a little search. In 1851 (if I have the right James), his father George was born in Tunbridge, Kent and was described as a Carman, an occupation which James was described as having in the 1881 and 1891 censuses. In the 1881 census James was born in Tunbridge Wells, but I think that must be a mistake, as in the 1851 Census, he was born in Camden Town, London and in 1891, he is shown as born St. Pancras. As in 1851, James was living at 17 Haverstock St.,, St. Pancras, Camden, I think that the london address, is where he was born, not Tunbridge Wells. Possible births for James are:-
Mar 1849 St. Pancras 1 288
June 1849 St Pancras 1 277
June 1850 St Pancras 1 300
Finally, James father George married Harriett Upfold in Dec 1847 ref St Pancras 1 326
Hope this helps
Bill Birchall
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Hi there
I'm wondering if you can help? Did James Harris marry Elizabeth & have Ellen Harris in 1876 in Paddington? Only I'm trying to trace my great grandmother (Ellen) & I think James & Elizabeth Harris of 25 James Street, St Pancras might be them, however I am unable to locate them in 1901?
Thanks
Dee
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Hi there
I believe Thomas Harris is my great great great grandfather, James Harris is my Great great grandfather, he married Elizabeth Batt from Market Lavington, Wiltshire & then lived in St Pancras & Paddington (1881 & 1891 census) I lost them after that, but have just had some info that they went to Coventry.
Regards
Delia West
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Hi Delia.
Welcome to Rootschat.
I may be wrong but isnt this Elizabeth in 1901?
With 3 of her children.
Elizabeth Edmonds 43 Head Mar born Devizes, Wiltshire
Charles Edmonds 14
Florence Edmonds 12
Rosina Edmonds 10
Frank A Edmonds 8
Albert J Edmonds 4
1891 we have;
James Harris 42
Elizabeth Harris 37
Elizabeth Harris 19
Ellen Harris 15
Mania Harris 13
James Harris 11
Edith Harris 7
Charlie Harris 5
Florence Harris 2
Rosena Harris 3/12
FreeBMD;
Marriage;
June 1895
Edmonds John Pancras 1b 285
Harris Elizabeth Pancras 1b 285
Trish :)
Not sure why this child wasnt reg as mmn Batt
EDMONDS, ALBERT JOHN mmn HARRIS
GRO Reference: 1896 J Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 158
1911 I cant post but she is there with her 2 youngest Daughters (daugs under Harris)
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So sometime after this child James died and Elizabeth remarried.
HARRIS, FRANK ALFRED mmn BATT
GRO Reference: 1893 J Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 2
Frank as you can see appears as Edmonds 1901 Census.
1891 the Harris Family is in the Pancras Reg District.
Found it;
Deaths Sep 1893
Harris James age 43 Pancras 1b 122
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Hi Trish
Good to meet you, just taking a bit of time to get used to this site.
Thanks for the info, genius!!! That is incredible.
I had an email from the LMA yesterday who have tried to locate 'Ellen Harris' James & Elizabeth's daughter, by looking at my granny's admission to Marlesford Lodge, but fruitless I'm afraid, here is some of the correspondence.
KBG/207/008 shows Violet Harris admitted to the Branch school Marlesford Lodge on 26/10/1911 and then transferred to the district school at Banstead on 8/3/1912. nothing is listed in the observations column
She is also listed in KCSD/336 this shows an admission date to Marlesford Lodge of 26/10/1911. It lists her date of birth as 1/1/03 and under description is says illegitimate and deserted. She is also recorded as chargeable to the Kensington Board of Guardians. She was discharged on 15th May 1914 to the Grove Hospital. Under the observations column it notes the following: adopted see letter 23/11/11 no communication to be allowed with her.
Unfortunately I have no idea about the reference to 'no communication', but it was certainly common for the Guardians to adopt the children, when the parent had not been around for a good length of time. It might be worth looking through the bundles of letters in the Kensington Board of Guardians ref: KBG/192/106 letters general outwards including to govt departments covers 1911 Jul-1911 Dec and also those of the Kensington and Chelsea School Distarict ref: KCSD/246 Letters from the Local Government Board covering 1911.
I also then found her readmission (presumably after a period in the hospital) on 31/7/1914 to Marlesford Lodge, with transfer to Banstead on 5/3/1915 and then a final discharge on 23/4/1919 to the Metropolitan Association for Befriending Young Servants, home located at Scott House in Hitchin.
I know this does not provide any more details of her early days as you wanted, but I hope you will find the information useful.
Thank you for the extra information. This was certainly useful, as from the digitised records of Marlesford Lodge on ancestry I managed to find an admission to on 26/10/1911 which states nearest known relative mother Ellen ? (no address given). The useful information is that she has come from the parish of Kensington, meaning she should be chargeable to the Kensington Board of Guardians. I also found another admission again on March 8th 1912. Strangely thought it didn't pick up any discharges, but if she was also there on the date of the 1911 census then she has to be coming and going quite a bit.
When I am back on site at LMA I will have a look at KBG/207/008 Register of children chargeable to the Kensington and Chelsea District School, Banstead and the Kensington and Chelsea Branch School, Marlesford Lodge, Hammersmith covering 1906-1912 and also KCSD/336 Register of children in the branch school, Marlesford Lodge, and the district school at Banstead, with a separate section for children from Mile End Old Town covering 1908-1915 to see what information they contain as I cannot find these registers on ancestry. With a bit of luck we might be able to find her original admission date and potentially a clue as to where she came from immediately before that.
So, that's what I've got, my real search is for Ellen, where she went after my granny's birth, but your info may help. It's interesting Ellen used 'Westbury' as her address on the b/c as this is where Elizabeth originates in Devizes.
Very helpful Trish.
Many thanks.
Dee
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I'm signing out now as its late here in Oz so will read over your info again tomorrow :)
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Oh wow.....didn't realise you were on the other side of the world!
Your brilliant
Thank you!
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Details of Violet Lilian Florence Harris
B: 01/01/1903. Queen Charlotte's Lying In Hospital, Marylebone.
Mother: Ellen Victoria Harris. (E V Harris) Barmaid of Paddington. Paddington.
Address as: 19 Westbury Road. Paddington. London.
I have found an 'Ellen Harris' on the 1901 Census, as a barmaid working in the 'Pilot' 56 Wellesley Road, Chiswick. Born 1876 (which ties her in to the Ellen of James & Elizabeth Harris 1891 census, 25 James Street, Pancras (On which Ellen is described as a 'Domestic servant').
However I have recently found an 'Ellen Harris' also on the 1901 census living in Gower St. Pancras, as a 'Cook'. So I wonder if it is her, would she have gone from 'Cook' to barmaid in the next year?
Also which caught my eye was that in this 'Boarding house' were two daughter's 'Lilian & Florence' both names were my grandmothers middle names?????
The reference to Westbury Road on my GM's birth cert could possibly have been referring to the 'Westbury Road' in Market Lavington, Devizes, where Elizabeth was born? A red herring so to speak to keep people off of her trail?
I have found 19 Westbury Road on an old map, it appears just off of 'Westbourne Terrace' the family at number 19 (1901 census) were the 'Fleggs' with no apparent relation or mention to Ellen, so I do wonder if she was leaving us a clue as to who she was......or, who the father of her illegitimate child was? There were a lot of pubs around that area so Ellen may well have worked in one, interestingly, young 'Flegg' married the daughter of a hotel owner called 'Laura Tilbury' the family owned 'The Maze' hotel in Chichester road, right next door to 'Westbury Road' so again.....could this be relevant.
I think maybe the DNA will show the line, but Ellen's whereabouts after 1903 or even after 1991 are sketchy.
All help appreciated.
Dee
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I've just found 'Charles Harris 1824 St Giles Middlesex' 1861 census, has wife Ellen so appears much more likely to be James father as James named his 1st daughter after wife 'Elizabeth' & 2nd 'Ellen' after his mother? George may be an uncle, they are all 'Carmen'.
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Yes I am in Sydney.
Maybe someone else can help as I am unable too at this stage.
I will keep an eye on this and get back when I can :)
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Of course, no problem, thanks for what you've done Trish.
Regards