RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: StephenFarnsworth on Monday 24 October 11 12:10 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I'm having a hard time find the birth of my great, great, great grandmother Catherine Pickett- mainly because she appears to have been born out in India.
My initial thought (circa 1860 was the British Army/East India Company). On various census forms she had listed her as being born in the East Indies, Barrackpore and Allahabad. My organisation has a base out in India and on checking with colleagues there they informed me that Barrackpore was indeed an Army base back in the day.
I managed to find her father - Peter Pickett and what I presumed to be her mother Sophia Elizabeth Nash - but the marriage date just didn't tally. I ordered the certificate and Peter Pickett was a widower when he got married - so I have no idea who Catherine's mother was.
What I know about Peter Pickett is that he was born around 1835 and was Irish. From his marriage certificate (1875) he's listed as being 40, a widower, a Private in the 104th Regiment and living at South Front Barracks in Dover. His father was John Pickett, a Stone Mason.
What I don't get - is how he had a child (and presumably wife) out in India? I presumed it would have only been high-ranking officers who had their families with them - but he was a Private.
Does anybody have any idea how I would go about finding the name of his first wife - Catherine's mother - or better still, Catherine's birth certificate. If she was born in India and he was in the Army would they have to register it with the Army?
I'm doing better with other branches of the family - getting back to the 1600's - but this is a real stumbling block for me.
Cheers
Stephen
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hi Stephen
welcome to rootschat , i,ve had a look in service records for your peter and he is in the records for chelsea out pensioners and as you say was in the 104th reg ( bengal fusiliers )reg no 3051, attested on 9 feb 1858 in cork his birth parish was ballanol cork he was discharged in guernsey 11 april 1877 age 42 intended place of residence manchester , i,ve also looked for army marriages and none show also birth for catherine pickett and again none show in overseas births .
do you have any more precise dates of births or marriages , i,ve found the marriage to s e nash , as to having his family with him in india it was normal to have them with them back then as it is now .
looking at the medical record part some of the places he was based are as follows dugalai ? - peshwar - allahabad - gosport 1871 - portsmouth 1872 - aldershot 1873 - dorset ? 1874 ( this may be dover )
- alderney 1874 . dugalai and dorset are pos wrong as it,s difficult to read the document properly but it does give you more scope to try and track him .
if i can help further please ask .
regards
trevor
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Stephen Welcome to Rootschat. If you are within reach of the British Library, St. Pancras they have extensive records of the British involvement in India from the late 18th century (East India Co.) until independence (1947) Well worth a visit if you can make it.
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Thanks both - and Trevor - WOW..!!!! How could you find that stuff so quickly..????
I started this family tree milarky about 6-months and I'm hooked. I think I'm naturally inquisitive - or nosey as my wife/mother would say. I just HATE not knowing stuff....
These are the absolute facts that I have:
1. Peter Pickett/Sophia Elizabeth Nash marriage - 2 March 1875 Holy Trinity Church in Dover. And as I said, Peter Pickett is listed as 40, widower and Private in the 10t4th
2. Peter Pickett also appears on the marriage certificate between Catherine/Katherine Pickett and Joseph Stevenson on 20 March 1880. Catherine and Joseph had a daughter 10 months later and she (Mary Jane) is my Grandfather's mother.
They are the only certificates I have, but CENSUS-wise:
1. 1891 Census - Dover St Mary Virgin, Kent, England
Peter Pickett (Head), 55, Railway Goods Porter, born in Ireland
Sophia E Pickett (Nash), 48, General Shop Keeper, born in Walmer, Kent
2. 1881 Census - Dover St Mary Virgin, Kent, England
Peter Pickett (Head) 45, Pensioner, born in Ireland
Sophia Elizabeth Picket (Nash), 38, Walmer, Kent
And they appear to have a 3-year old adopted son - Archibald MacMillan - who isn't there 10 years on
As for the elusive Catherine:
1. She's in Dover in 20 March 1880 as she married Joseph Stevenson - 4 Hawksbury Court (Joseph) and 57 Bulwark Street (Catherine)
2. She moves to Manchester the following year and remains there until her death - 11 May 1912
1901 Census - she's 43 and born in India, Allahabad making her birth year 1858
1891 Census - she's 32 and born in East Indies - her birth year 1859
1881 Census - she's 22 and born in Barrackpore - her birth year 1859
1880 marriage certificate - she's 21 - her birth year 1859
So I think, unless she was a big, fat, liar, she was born in 1859.
I can't find either Peter Pickett or Catherine before 1880 - so I'm presuming that she's still in India for the 1871 census?
Dugali appears to be in India, so that would fit as well.
Being discharged to Manchester would also fit - given his daughter moved there in 1881
Thanks for your help
Stephen
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Hi
Can't see her on these two databases
http://www.new.fibis.org/
http://indiafamily.bl.uk/UI/Home.aspx
Have you checked the GRO army registers in the overseas section of the GRO index (not covered by FreeBMD or Ancestry but on other websites such as Findmypast and FamilyRelatives)?
Regards
Valda
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hi valda .
i,ve been through FindMyPast twice now but nothing comes up for overseas births or marriages for either peter or catherine it,s begining to become a mystery overall , it,s lucky that peter transferred over to the british army as that at least gives us a chelsea pension record , i like you tried fibis but he doesn,t show in there although there are others named pickett even using all variations on the surname doesn,t produce anything .
i,m just trying an overall search on FindMyPast but apart from the obvious detail we already have i,m not getting very far , any ideas from you would be helpful regards
trevor
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Hi
Barrackpore and Allahabad are in the Bengal Presidency when it comes to searching the ecclesiastical returns at the British Library.
I may be at the British Library next week ar the week afte and can check to see if there is any entry for you.
Dawn
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hi dawn
have just checked consular and am going through army returns for births for catherine so far nothing also looked for army marriage plus consular marriage and again nothing , can you think of anything else to look at i,ve tried to think of pos phonetics of the surname but that hasn,t helped .
regards
trevor
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Thanks everybody - you're being extremely helpful. I registered onto familyrelatives and find my past. I had assumed that all the genealogy websites were exactly the same - but have now discovered they are not.
I'm registered with Ancestry.com and am building our family tree on there - but I've taken some PAYG credits on Find My Past and have now downloaded Peter Pickett's official record from there - which is fantastic and confirms a lot of things - part from the existence of a wife/child.!!! It does put him in Allahabad at the time Catherine/Katherine says she was born though - which is encouraging.
I'll add the images to this post if it works....
It's bizarre that she's not appearing anywhere unless Peter and spouse weren't married until after Catherine was born and she's listed with her mother's maiden name. The later marriage certificate does say "Widower" though - so they must have married sometime/somewhere..!!!
Copyright images removed
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Here's some more pages. I'm going to print them at work next week on A3 paper so I can really read every word....
Copyright images removed
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Last page of the records for Private Peter Pickett....
Copyright images removed. Images from commercial sources are not allowed on RootsChat, since most of these sources are either protected by copyright or terms and conditions of membership/use of the site. Generally these limit the use of the site to private and personal use only.
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If he had married a local would the British Army have recorded it? I'm just wondering if Catherine's mother was Indian whether it would have been frowned upon and not recognised? That said though - there's not the slightest hint of being Indian through the family ancestors - we look more like we're descended from Vikings than from the sub continent...!!! I'd have welcomed a warmer complexion....
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histephen.
firstly don,t be surprised if the record gets lifted as it comes under copyright and shouldn,t be put up here , whoooooops ;D we,ve all done it i,ve been told off more than once for it ;D ;D any how i,m still not getting anywhere today , did have a look at military records for John pickett and 3 come up on FindMyPast one is for a john pickett born ireland and i believe married in canada but please don,t let that cloud your view as it may well be wrong .
also had a look in roots ireland but although 2 peter picketts show they were both for county meath none for county cork but i,m not sure if all irish counties are online as yet but do keep in mind until you prove otherwise that peters dad john may have been military as well but pickett does look like a quite strong irish name .
forgot to say yesterday but did you see in the record for peter a mention of the Crimean war where it states he received the crimea medal for sevastapol and alma also received the turkish medal , now again i looked in forces genealogy for him but nothing shows up for a peter pickett in the crimea which again adds to the mystery , i personally begin to wonder if he went under the name peter all the time as so many things don,t add up also with that surname it is wide open to phonetic mistranscription so do think outside the box all the time and make sure you double check everything just in case you get blindsided ,we,ve all been there .
i can,t find anything regarding a birth abroad for catherine even when using the variations option on all the sites .
regards
trevor
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Nope - I didn't realise. A rookie mistake - I assumed that I had paid for it, I could do with it what I liked. That's bad news - you should see my Ancestry.com pages - or maybe you shouldn't..!!!!!
I can understand authors not wanting their work copied and passed around willy-nilly - but these are just public record - especially census records. I wanted all of my work to be available for the future generations so that they don't have to go through everything I'm going through - it's costing a small fortune in certificates!!
Back to Private Pickett though - NO - I've missed the Crimea reference - where is it?
Also, can't I call up his official army records from somewhere - I seem to recall that there is a website where you can pay and get a full record sent to you detailing where they served, the battles they fought in etc.
Maybe Catherine's true identity is destined to remain unresolved.....Damnation...!
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hi stephen
don,t get me wrong yes you,ve payed to view and download the record but they still belong to the national archives hence where it says crown copyright national archives ,also bright solid ie FindMyPast have payed out a lot of money to digitise them and they would get humpy if they knew the world and his wife was spreading them around ;D ;D ;D , but no matter others will sort it out , now onwards the mention of crimea is on the second page you,ve posted where it says about his conduct and his one good conduct badge then goes on to say about the crimean part .
as to any more records these are the only official records to be had all others were destroyed about twenty years after a soldier left the service so only those who got to a pensionable position are what is left unfortunately for us now , you may be getting confused with ww2 records which have to be applied for and payed for .
the thing to bear in mind is that when we watch progs like who do you think you are is that they use researchers to find all there stuff we don,t necessarily have that option because of the cost and the distances and places we may have to go to to find the answers we seek so sometimes when a brick wall appears it,s a case of wait and hope that more transcribed records come online as time passes i,ve only been doing this for about 3 years but the amount of extra info that has become available in that time is enormous and being added to weekly at least this game is a marathon never a sprint the initial searches offer up lots but then the further back it gets more boggy .
sorry to ramble on but it,s what i do best ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D.
regards
trevor
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Please see FindMyPast's new plain English T's & C's
What you can use the service for:
You can only use the website for your own personal non-commercial use, e.g., to research your own family history.
We are also happy for you to help out other people with their family history by telling them about records available on the website and how and where they can be found, including showing them anything within our free search results.
However, you must not provide them with copies of any of the records (either an original image of the record or the information on the results page), even if you provide them for free.
Best wishes
Copyright Editor
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I do have a second plan - I have a 5-year old daughter - so hopefully in about 25-30 years when she's an established Hollywood star - she too can go on Who Do You Think You Are - and they can take her out to India to find Catherine's birth certificate.... Until then - I continue to struggle....
This all started as a project for my wife when she was recovering from an op - I stuck my nose in and got hooked....
As for copying records - the rules are the rules I guess - but I find it all ridiculous. I think all records should be made open and available. Why should some company profit from selling my great, great, great, great grandparents birth certificate - or mine come to think about it. I would mind so much if it were the Government - and least the national debt would be coming down. When I buy my certificates I buy them from a .gov domain - so presumably our national debt reduces by £9.00 each time...!!!!
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My offer (reply #6) still stands.
Dawn
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A first plan why not, if you can get there before Dawn, pay a visit to the British Library? You have not put your area on your avatar so I don't know if this would be feasible.
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Dawn - that would be marvellous if it's not too much of an inconvenience. I live/work in Manchester and get to London occasionally with work - but never have the free time to indulge myself other than take the odd photograph. I must admit though that I'm not massively hopeful at this stage....
Cheers
Stephen
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I think we are related as Peter Pickett was my great great grandfather. His daughter Katherine Pickett married Joseph Stevenson and their son Peter Pickett Stevenson was my Grandfather.
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hi k steve
you need to make 2 more posting then you can use the pm servic e to communicate with s f but please don,t post names up on here of anyone who is still alive as it is against rootschat policy and will get lifted .
regards
trevor
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Hi,
That sounds promising.... I have a tree over on Ancestry. Do you have an account? I'll try one of these private message things - but to honest, I'm a complete newbie on here - let's see what happens. If it doesn't work or you can't see it - we'll have to try something else. I've a feeling that if I put my own email address on here it will be taken down immediately for infringing my own rights or something!
SF
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hi both please don,t post e mail addresses up on here as you say it will get taken off once found as it is to protect you in case someone uses it for spamming purposes or something worse like i said k steven needs to make two more postings just say ok twice will do then use the personal message service if you click on each others avatars it will show that persons details and a message saying send this rootschatter a personal message and away you go .
regards
trevor
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Hi,
I've some more to add to the mystery - having now read the 1911 census it once again gives the place of birth as Barrackpore, India and states "British Subject by Parentage" - so does that mean that her mother was probably a local Indian woman? Or does it simply mean that she was born outside of the UK and her parents were British?
Thanks for any advice/suggestions
Stephen
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I have quite a lot of hours researching British India. Both military and a steam locomotive driver from County Durham who emigrated there in around 1890. There is no evidence on any ecclesiatical record of a Peter or Catherine Pickett in India, second half of 1800's. This would include the the dominant religions, Catholic. CofE and Methodists, etc.. They operated with the certificate, or a quarterly listings system just like in the Mother Country. Variants are Piggot and Pigot. Check on familysearch.org
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The British Library has much information about the British in pre independence India, going back to the 18th century. In my experience it was by no means uncommon for local women to be married to Europeans, particularly for some reason unknown to me in the railway industry.
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Hi
The marriage may not have occurred in India but in a place Peter was stationed before he arrived in India. Have you accessed Peter's military record?
Information on the British Army and wives
http://www.royalengineers.ca/femnkid.html
'As British females began arriving in British India in large numbers around the early to mid-19th century, mostly as family members of British officers and soldiers, intermarriage became increasingly uncommon among the British in India and was later despised after the events of the Indian Rebellion of 1857'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Indian
If Catherine was baptised a Catholic she would not have been baptised by an Anglican army chaplain so would not appear in the chaplain returns held by the GRO. Ditto a local Anglican Indian church if the baptism occurred there.
Regards
Valda
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2 years on and I'm no closer. Everything suggests that she was born in India but without a record of her birth I can't find out who her mother was and so my trail runs cold. I think my final option will be writing to the MOD and see if they can help.... I'm sure the Army must have somebody who specialises on my ancestors battalion etc. Let's see. Fingers crossed....
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I too have drawn in a blank when it comes to tracing people in India. In my case it was my gtx3 grandmother, Amelia Margaret Padam, an Indian girl who married my gtx3 grandfather, William Lacey, who was in the British Army. I know they married at a Church Mission Station in or near Benares on 05 January 1864. They had three children in India, including my gtx2 grandfather Christopher Lacey, but I've not found anything relating to a marriage certificate or a birth certificate for any of them, not even William Lacey's service papers. I've been to the British Library and the National Archives and got nowhere. It's really frustrating so you have my sympathy.
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The one thing I have in my favour is the Service Medical Papers and Discharge for Peter Pickett which pretty much lists everywhere he went over his 20+ years service - so his ranks, battalions, court martials!! With that I can pretty much pin down where and when he was in India and with Catherine Pickett's declarations on Census forms and death certificate I can pretty much establish the year she was born - so I'm hoping that between the two I can 'magic' a birth record from somewhere deep inside the MODs vaults..!!
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I too have a person born India but no registration or Baptism for him though his two siblings have baptisms in India, I think he was possibly born at sea and baptised aboard ship but have never found a record of his Birth other than he states British Subject born India, the others were also born Allahabad, both parents were British and were on the railways
Edna
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Have you had any more luck yet with the Pickett line? We have always struggled finding her line.
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FindMyPast has India Office records now but some are still a bit sketchy and the 100 year rule exists because of Familysearch promises.
It may be worth a look
Edna
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You'll only get partial transcriptions for births under 100 years and marriages under 84 years.
This is because of FindMyPast's data protection policies, nothing to do with FamilySearch
If you finds a partial transcription, you'll get an 'N' ref number which means you can look at the originals on microfilm at the British Library at St Pancras.
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hi all, Stephen and I have "chatted" in the past. I too am related and unfortunately, have not got any further than Stephen has. The only difference is that Catherine/Katharine/Kate does seem to spell her name differently. I tried all three versions through findmypast and they came up with an Ida Catherine Pickett married 1886 British India Office???
Not sure if anyone has any further information, but it's so frustrating! I started my searches in 1998 after my mum died, going off the information she left me. My dad left me information re his grandmother, the elusive Katherine Pickett and that she was born in India and had her first child in Dover.
Good luck with your searches!
Amanda