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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: mannering on Sunday 23 October 11 16:41 BST (UK)
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Help required please . Can anyone help me locate my GGgrandparents William and Elizabeth McLean [Nee McTurk] they were living in Main Street Gorbals in the 1841 Census but must have moved , I believe them to be still living in the Glasgow Area around 1851 ,their children were William , George ,Robert Laurie, Janet Laurie ,Christina and Agnes .
Thankyou in anticipation .
Mannering .
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Hi Mannering
This old post on another forum has William Snr. departing to the US c 1842. They talk of divorce (unlikely). Probably wife Elizabeth may have died before this date or maybe joined husband later? http://boards.ancestry.com/surnames.mclean/1128/mb.ashx
Monica
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Hello Monica .
Thankyou for responding to my posting and your help . I am very interested in this theory of my GGGrandparets emigrating to USA around 1842 which would tie in with the lack of information I have on them in the UK . The posting by Joan in 2004 is correct William and Elizabeth had two sons named William one born in 1824 the other in 1836 along with other children . My direct line is with the William McLean born in 1836 . Would you know of a site that I could search to see if I can locate them moving across to America as I think 1842 would have been to early for them passing through Ellis Island .
Regards .
Mannering
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Hi Mannering,
Did you find the children in 1851 census or later?
Did your William marry?
Alison
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As Alison mentions, would be good to see what info you have William born 1836 to see whether these posts relating to the US can be confirmed.
I saw elsewhere mention of youngest Agnes b. 1839 having married in 1863 (17 July 1863 Tradeston, Glasgow) an Archibald Walker. Trying to find them in 1871 census brought up this entry:
Archibald Walker 32 iron turner, b. Rothesay, Bute
Agnes Walker 30 b. Glasgow
William Walker 3
Archibald Walker 8 Months
William Mclean 32 boarder Card Guider b. Glasgow
The marriage cert should include full details on her parents to let you confirm and whether they were still alive at the time of the marriage.
Could this 1861 entry be Agnes and William, all born Glasgow. Not sure who James may be, born c. 1840?
William Mclean 24, iron turner
James Mclean 21 brother, Confectioner
Agnes Mclean 22 sister, cotton winder
Jessie Stevenson 20 lodger
Address: 100 South Wellington St, Glasgow Govan
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Certainly possible something happened to parents...but not convinced on the US angle really :-\
This was the family in 1841:
William Mclean 37, teacher
Elizbeth Mclean 37
George Mclean 14
Christiane Mclean 12
Robert Mclean 9
William Mclean 5
Agnes Mclean 2
Mclean 10 Days....wondering whether this is James in later censuses?
Jane McLark (McTurk?) 24
John Leith 17 Months
Address: No 49-55 Main Street, Gorbals
Then for 1851, all the Mcleans showing as visitors:
Alexander Davison 38
Agnes Reid Davison 30
Constinnig Mclean 18...female/not sure what this transcription is for, Christianna/ina etc?
William Mclean 14
Agnes Mclean 11
James Mclean 18
Address: 9 Oxford Lane, Gorbals
Monica
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Monica and Alison .
You are so kind thankyou for your help I really appreciate it as this brick wall has been with me for years . I to am not convinced of my McLean emigrating to America in 1842 but I do know later generations did in 1903 ,1922,1924 all from Cornwall UK and I am in contact with my American cousins . William and Elizabeth my GGGrandparents were living in Gorbals 1841 which you have identified Monica in your reply ,missing from the family was their oldest son William who would be about 17 years old .My research comfirms he ended up in Cornwall as I found him on the 1851 census working as a servant/ Coachman being single and working alongside his future wife Francis Luke who he married 5th July 1853 I found him to be the first and only member of my family in this 1851 Census ,I do have all relevant paperwork to comfirm marriage and deaths and I know the location of their grave . The second William born in 1836 was my GGrandfather he also came to Cornwall but not as early as his brother William I would imagine he came around 1857-9 as he also married in the same church as his brother on the 13th August 1859 to Jane Tremain I have the history of our McLean family from present day going back to 1804 with information I gleamed off that 1841 Census when they lived in Gorbals . I have been searching high and low for the rest of children of William and Elizabeth including themselves to see if they also moved to Cornwall but I cannot locate them at all so think they might have remained in Scotland . I think you might be right about the marriage of Agnes to Archibald and if your theory is correct it could prove they did remain in Scotland .
Kind regards
Mannering
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Hi Mannering
OK to ask some questions on your William?
How have you connected the two Williams down in Cornwall? Do they both show father as William, occupation teacher (just going by that 1841 census entry)?
I would guess from the two entries for sons called William for William and Elizabeth, that it is likely the first son William, b. 1 Aug. 1824 in the Gorbals, is likely to have died and the name reused later with the second William in 1836 (this was common practice with important family first names). Only one William that we can see on the family's 1841 census entry.
Also, the William who married Jane Tremain down in Cornwall shows as Joseph in later censuses?
I know you have obviously done a huge amount of research already...just not sure of the links back to Scotland :-\ How have these been made? Can't see a birth location for Joseph in the censuses other than Scotland, am I missing an entry that shows him born in Glasgow?
Monica :)
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Monica .
On both of the marriage certificates for William born 1824 and also William Born 1836 they indicate their father was called William , you are correct my GGrandfather was referred to as Joseph but only once he came to Cornwall and married Jane Tremain confusing I know . I linked these two brothers through my research and came across an obituary for the first William McLean his wife Francis died November of 1910 three weeks after William himself died and I noticed even though my GGrandfather did not attend as he had passed away in 1907 two of his sons did with their respective wives and they were referred to as Nephews and Nieces . My research has also told me when both these brothers came to Cornwall in 1851 and 1859 both lived in Pool a little village between Camborne and Redruth and both obtained work as Coachmen to local well to do families . I personaly think my GGrandfather was enticed to Cornwall by his older brother and lived with him and his wife Francis until he himself married as marriage certificate stated he lived at Pool . As stated above my GG was referred to as Joseph on this Marriage certificate and also throughout each census 1861- 1901 and on his death certificate ,but he was referred to as William on that 1841 Gorbals census . Going on a bit further I did visit Mitchel Library in Scotland back in 2003 while on holiday and met a lady who was most helpful I pointed out to her about this brickwall which I have and therefore she did some research for me and found relevant paperwork and sent it through to me ,I have this in front of me and I take it to be taken from parish records or similar as it was dated 1824 and clearly shows William McLean son of William McLean and Elizabeth McTurk in Laurieston [FR744] , I have an entry of all their other children from then on as each was born, when I come to my own GGrandfather again clearly visible neat handwiting as in all cases which reads William McLean son of William McLean and Elizabeth McTurk born in Gorbals entry April 1836 . On readin the entries is says the children were born in either Laurieston or Gorbals so they did not move far. Feel free to ask any questions I appreciate all the help I can get Thankyou .
Regards .
Mannering .
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Hi Mannering
What occupation was shown for father William on the two 1850s marriage certs you have down in Cornwall?
Monica
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Hi Alison .
Thankyou for your responce to my posting I appreciate any help I can get , in answer to your questions I only found out the childrens names when I saw the 1841 Gorbals Census and on this it shows a ten day old baby McLean boy yet to be given a Christian name ,I therefore wanted to check out the 1851 Census to find out what name he was given and if any other children came along . However I discovered the family had moved and I could not locate them and have not done so since . Having said that two children did move south into England and ended up in Cornwall the first was William oldest son 1824-1910 I found him on the 1851 census he later married Francis Luke in Cornwall 5th July 1853 and his Brother William my GGrandfather came to Cornwall about 1857-9 as he also married 13th August 1859 and settled here with his wife Jane Tremain to make matters more confusing he was known as Joseph even though recorded as William in the Scottish records which I have . I believe these two were the only members of my family to leave Scotland and head for Cornwall I would love to find out what happened to their parents and other siblings .
Regards .
Mannering .
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Maybe when you are next able to check Scottish records either at one of the Scottish centres or direct online at Scotlands People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, you might want to double check the marriage cert of the Agnes McLean and Archibald Walker we were talking about earlier to be able to confirm her parents' names.
By 1881, this looks to be Agnes' entry (I can't tell from the transcript if she still shows as married or widowed):
Agnes Walker 38 b. Glasgow
William Walker 12
Archibald Walker 11
George Walker 7
James Walker 5
William McLean 42, brother, Iron borer b. Glasgow
Address: 89 Govanhill St, Glasgow Hutchesontown
I am not sure that your Joseph can be a William :-\
Monica
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Hi Monica .
The 1853 Certificate states Williams Father was now a Labourer ,and the other certificate dated 1859 states he was now a Husbandman which was the same occupation as the son .
Regards .
Mannering
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Monica .
I will certainly do some checking on this Agnes and her marriage to Archibald Walker to determine if she is indeed daughter of William and Elizabeth McLean thankyou for pointing me in this direction it is all getting very interesting .
Regards
Mannering .
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OK, I admit, I am now hooked!
Agness McLean married Archibald, an iron turner, in 1863 Tradeston Glasgow. Parents William, English teacher and mother Elizabeth McTurk, both already deceased. One of the witnesses is William McLean. I am guessing this is her brother who we have living with her in 1871 and 1881.
Mannering, I hate to say this, given how much research and time you already have spent, but I do not think your links back to Scotland for your Joseph are accurate :-\
Monica
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Monica .
I thank you for your honesty and like all genealogists only want to deal in what is true and accurate for future generations to carry on with . In view of this revelation are we now saying Joseph McLean my GGrandfather may not be the son of William and Elizabeth McLean and should therefore be looking for the true parents of Joseph and his real siblings .
I am very impressed the way you found Agnes Mclean Marriage to Archibald in Tradeston and comfirming her father was indeed an English Teacher which comfirms what was stated as his occupation in that 1841 Gorbals Census . I often wondered why one minute he was a teacher then at another wedding in Cornwall 12 years later he was referred to as a Labourer and then in 1859 he was mentioned as being a Husbandryman now I know . I have to be honest with you I was passed this information by someone in USA who must also have false imformation I knew my imformation from what I collated from present to my GGrandfather Joseph was accurate ,that was until I was given these other details and I added them to my details so maybe I should start looking for the real parents of Joseph and his siblings ,once again I appreciate your help and advice .
Regards .
Mannering
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Mannering, it is always hard when you have spent a long time researching a line and then find, somewhere along the way, that there is an error on the research :-\
We need to try and see now where we can get to with Joseph and the other William (potential elder brother to Joseph?).
Is there anything on children's names that we could use for either Joseph or William - thinking here of any clues on mother's name to try and find any entries back in Scotland for 1841/51?
Monica
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Monica I am glad you pointed this out to me I would rather these details be accurate than false I am a little annoyed that I did not check these details out before I included them within my family tree so the fault lies with me . I must admit I have spent a lot of time on my research and know from the material I have that my records are correct to presnt date and from when Joseph Married . I now have to start looking for his parents / siblings ,I know he was born in Glasgow around 1836 and he died in Cornwall 1907 I have seen the marriage entry for him when he married Jane Tremain on the 13th August 1859 at Illogan Church . We know his father was called William as this is on his Marriage certificate and stated his father was a Husbandman . The first child of Joseph and Jane was a boy who they named William 1859-1915 they went on to have others the names are as follows Joseph , Robert Edwin, Margaret Jane, Samuel , John, Jane,Thomas . I often wondered where the Margaret Christian name came from could this be Williams mothers first name as she was the first Girl born to William and Jane and now you have pointed this revelation out to me I have not come across a child of theirs called Elizabeth and neither have I found any of the other generations doing so .
William McLean who I believe to be his brother 1824- 1910 married Francis Luke 5th July 1853 they in turn had the one child who was called William Mclean Christened at Tuckingmill Church Cornwall 1856 .
Regards .
Mannering .
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Some of the census entries (18451/51) I have seen for the William down in Cornwall, who married Fanny (Frances) Luke, put his birth year closer to 1820-1. Just about old enough if he shaved another couple of years off his age, and worth just keeping at the back of your mind, for him to have been Joseph's father.....or brother!
Did William Snr show up anywhere in Joseph's life down in Cornwall - thinking here as a sponsor on children's christenings etc. or anything else.
Struggling to see anything as yet for Joseph back in Scotland with a birth year 1835 +/- 3 years.
Monica
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Monica .
I have searched high and low for my McLean family in Cornwall within the 1841 and 1851 census only one I could find for 1851 was William McLean who later married Francis Luke . To be honest I can never recall having or seeing any details of William Senior showing up in Josephs life in Cornwall however I have not checked out possibility of William being a sponsor on any Grandchildrens Christenings . I know of all the McLean in Camborne Redruth and Illogan having searched through all census details from 1851-1901 .My Joseph shows up in the first census with his wife Jane and Child William in the 1861 Census for Tolvaddon Illogan Area and as each child was born they were included .
Mannering
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Monica .
You are right I noticed William McLean who married Francis Luke was slightly older than he should have been on the details you saw , I have his death certificate in front of me it states he died 30th September 1910 aged 86 years old therefore birthdate would be 1824 . The records state he was a retired Coachman and died of Senile Decay Exhaustion ,informant was his son William McLean who lived in Plymouth Devon . Only 3 weeks later francis died so this William had to go through it all again poor chap ,it was at Francis funeral that I noticed on the obituary that those present were a William Mclean and Robert McLean and their wives and recorded as Nephews and Nieces .
regards .
Mannering
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Good info from the obituary that has let you confirm the relationship between William and Joseph :)
Monica