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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Dave the Walrus on Sunday 23 October 11 12:13 BST (UK)
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Hi Everybody,
How do we get back to the 17th century, with our research?
Best wishes,
Dave the Walrus
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Very difficult to give an answer to such a vague question. It depends on all sorts of things such as which country/county/parish/town, family's religion and availablity of church records, social standing...
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Hi aghadowey,
It would be for England, Ireland and Scotland, but mainly England.
Best wishes,
Dave
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I have reached the 17th century on a number of branches, through a combination of the parish registers, wills, using the A2A catalogue of archives, county histories, printed genealogies giving me clues where to look (I was lucky on that one - some of them were quite well-to-do). It takes a long time. I made a breakthrough this week to the late 17th century with one family, but it has taken me the better part of 15 years to get there.
Nell
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For Ireland you'll need to know both the family's religion and where they lived (parish if not actual townland). However, very few church records will survive for such early dates. In general you might get back to c1800 with available recoerds (civil registration, Wills, etc.) but unless you are extremely lucky and have some details (especially a location) to start with them it would be extremely difficult to get back another 100 years or so earlier.
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I'm afraid you just work your way back using the post 1855 bmds, the census and parish registers, monumental inscriptions, kirk session records etc. etc. I see you have an Allan family from Aberdeenshire. I have such a family and have been able to trace those Allans back from Aberdeenshire to Banffshire in the late 17th century.
Graham.
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A less common name, a small village (that the family remained in) and some good Parish Record keeping can also help. ;)
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If mainly England, then sight of Phillimore's "Atlas and Index of Parish Registers" gives amongst other things the date and location of the earliest parish register for each parish in England, Wales and Scotland. Will be available at most reference librairies, though expensive copies often appear on Amazon at a reasonable price. I saw one at WDYTA Olympia good condition price £8.
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Yes, it might be stating the obvious, but parish registers in England and Wales can date from the mid-16th century and, from the early 1600's they were required to be copied to the local bishop (so you have twice the chance of finding surviving records).
All the same, it definitely helps if your ancestors had unusual surnames or were wealthy enough to leave wills!
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A likely relative of mine has produced a tree including the maternal ancestors of my 2XGGF which goes back to around 1300AD, over 200 years before the introduction of parish registers. The family were not aristocrats or anything very grand, just tenant farmers who happened to rent the same farm from the same landlord for over 300 years; and the manorial records happen to have survived. Great you might think, expect that I have failed to confirm the link to my ancestor for over 15 years. I just have this one break in 1776. So a lot of it in the end is simply luck.
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Hi Everybody,
Thank you very much for the information. I guess, this is where the hard work begins. ;D
Best wishes,
Dave
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Hi Nell,
What is the "A2A catalogue of archives"?
Best wishes,
Dave
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Hi Graham,
You may have seen my postings on the Aberdeenshire site. My ancestors seem to have been seafaring types, initially from Peterhead, moving to Dundee and then to Aberdeen. At present, I am starting with my great grandfather, William Allan, born 17 August, 1823 in Peterhead.
Do you see any connections there?
Best wishes,
Dave
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"Great you might think, expect that I have failed to confirm the link to my ancestor for over 15 years. I just have this one break in 1776. So a lot of it in the end is simply luck."
I'm hearing you Roger! There is a very well-researched book on my family from 1917, detailing various branches of the family. Even this fellow, who had access to documents that no longer exist, could not prove a link with my line. My branch is described as "no link having been proven". If only there had been a paper trail.....
I guess I am stuck with John Pyne in 1530. And to think he lived about 3 or 4 parishes away from the manor the family first held in 1154!
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Pinefamily, I have taken a Y chromosome DNA test, so far without success in linking my male side of the family. After that length of time now 225 years there is no test known to me which would like me to my father's maternal ancestry, certainly not that far back. If it is the male side, then a Y DNA test is the only possibility I know of.
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IPM's are also a good source of relationships, and there seem to be a goodly number of learned tomes from the 1850 to 1880 period in England which appear to be sourced from early legal documents by Solicitors from the Inns of Court in London. The main thing is to luck into a well researched and documented family tree, which you have more chance of doing, the more lines you follow up.
It took me over 50 years to eventually find an end (and then it was my grandson's, not mine) with such a possible link, but then I went from 1740 to 241 in 2 days (thank you Mr Poindexter), I've just documented it as a theory for anyone to confirm/ refute as the fancy takes them in the future - I've not enough time left to do so
You also have to bear in mind the sad fact that 10% of children ar not the biological offspring of the officially documented father, so after a few generations, it is a matter of chance whose ancestors you are tracing, so you have to be doing it for the fun (and education) of the research. I have learnt more history by reading some of the books referred to than I ver did in school.
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You also have to bear in mind the sad fact that 10% of children ar not the biological offspring of the officially documented father, so after a few generations, it is a matter of chance whose ancestors you are tracing, so you have to be doing it for the fun (and education) of the research. I have learnt more history by reading some of the books referred to than I ver did in school.
Seems to fit my experience of the Y chromosome test, so far 11 men including myself have taken it, and we have 11 different lines!
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I don't think anyone has answered Dave's question from yesterday re A2A.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/ contains enough to explain itself.
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All too often the problem with TNA website is the site itself.Good luck.
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Yes, if at first nothing comes up in your search, try different spellings etc.
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Pinefamily, I have taken a Y chromosome DNA test, so far without success in linking my male side of the family. After that length of time now 225 years there is no test known to me which would like me to my father's maternal ancestry, certainly not that far back. If it is the male side, then a Y DNA test is the only possibility I know of.
I did actually buy a test kit for just such a DNA test; never got around to doing it. I should see if they are still in business. Given the obvious origin of the Pine/Pyne family in Devon, I would think a positive test should come back; barring any shenanigans under the blankets of course!
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With a reported illegitimacy rate of 10%, plus research which I have been involved in "Dorset Bastards" showing lower rates in the early 18th century but increasing towards 10% by the end, this being the REPORTED rate remember I think while you might pin the origins to Devon you will be lucky to prove "Pine family" descent.
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Yes, only the DNA test would go any way towards proving it.
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Yes, only the DNA test would go any way towards proving it.
Or not, as the case may be! With my experience I must say don't expect too much, but of course you might be lucky.
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If you take the research I mentioned earlier in this thread, together with a name occurrence mapping exercise, all roads lead to Devonshire in this case. But as you say, there are many other factors to muddy the waters, eg illegitimacy, "misbehaving" wives etc. (I can't think of a more polite way to say it :) )
Interestingly, in my studies of the various family groupings in Devon in the 19th century, I did find one occurrence thus far of illegitimacy (assumed at this stage), a son christened to a mother only. I haven't followed it up as its not on my family line.
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How about "naughty girls"? As Dorset is next county to Devon, and the trend towards 10% illegitimcacy seems strongest in the west, I think your finding will be very interesting.
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Do you think the higher rate is due to the more rural nature of the west back then? Or is there some other factor?
I like "naughty girls". The term that is. ;)
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No, the higher rate was in the towns of the west at that time, it gradually increased during the century. I think, but have no conclusive proof that the many wars were a contributory factor.