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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Norfolk => Topic started by: Agatha R on Wednesday 19 October 11 14:43 BST (UK)
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Elizabeth Banyard Born 1842 Downham Norfolk
There is another Elizabeth Banyard born in Holme Norfolk but this is not her.
on her marriage certificate to Henry Addison she says her father is charles deceased.
the marriage certificate to Henry uses the surname Anderson, but they are Addison's.
who were Elizabeths Parents?
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Birth
Oct/Nov/Dec 1842
Downham Reg District ref 13 79
ELizabeth Banyard
The most reliable way of finding her parents will be to send for the birth cert.
There is not another ELizabeth Banyard birth reg in 1842 in Norfolk.
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This one is at HO107 1830 173 4
in 1851
Parents William and Lidy.
Yes, she was born (and lives in ) Holme, but that is in Downham Reg District.
Full transcript
William 34 ag lab bn Hollme
Lidy 33 bn Stour
Mary Ann 12 bn Holme
Thomas 10 bn Holme
Elizabeth 8 bn Holme
James 6 bn Holme
Emily 4 bn Holme
Susan 1 bn Holme
He is still William in 1841, wife Lidia, still in Holme, with baby Thomas. MAry Ann isnt with them.
There doesnt seem to be another Elizabeth Banyard around.
Where does the birthplace of yours come from?
Have you found her on later censuses after her marriage?
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Answering my own question -
1871
RG10 1867 41 4
Lynn Rd Downham Market
Henry 29 labourer bn Mundford
Elizabeth 27 bn Downham
Charles 7
ALfred 5
Henry 3
James 2 mths
Mary 18 sister bn Mundford
all children bn Downham
Are you sure she was nee Banyard? Have you got a child's birth cert showing this?
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elizabeth's parents were henry banyard b,6/7/1822 great dunham norfolk d,1903 ,, mother sarah hubbard b,1816 downham d,1913
henry father was john b,1776 norfolk d,1835 runcton holme norfolk
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Henry?
census evidence suggests William
Marriage cert names Charles
What is the evidence that this Henry and Sarah are the parents of Elizabeth bn 1842?
What is the source of your info?
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family search on latterday saints
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A christening?
if so where and when, and was it a submitted or extracted record?
modified - Cant see it!!!
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the family are on the pedigree chart
i'm not sure i like the tone of your message
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Wasnt aware it had a tone - just asking about the source of the statement that Elizabeth Banyard's father was Henry, when all the evidence so far has been that it was either William or Charles!
A source being a survivng document from the time, like a census schedule or a parish register entry of a christening, or a birth certificate for example
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Ok I've spotted the pedigree you refer to - submitted by some guy in Kent - so to find where he got it from Agatha would have to contact him.
However, he says that the Elizabeth Banyard bn 1842 (that he says was born to Henry and Sarah), died in 1846
So, if his info is right, then she cant be the girl that grew up to marry Henry Addison.
She may, of course, be the one with the 1842 birth registration we have found.
Which bodes the question of where the birth reg is for the one from the censuses, dtr of William!
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Going back to the William and Lidia couple, who in the censuses had a dtr Elizabeth of the right age and in the rightplace
I see that William is still alive in 1871, by which time Elizabeth is married
So that rules out the scenario that the vicar just got distracted and when she said her dad was William he wrote down Charles! William certainly wasnt deceased.
SO if we are ruling out the William and Lidy couple for that reason
And we rule out the Henry and Sarah couple someone has submitted on familysearch as she is said to have died .....
we are struggling
But the fact still remains, there is only one birth registration - without the birth cert we dont know which of the three that relates to!
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there are family trees on ancestry with elizabeth not passing away until 1919 showing the same parents i had of L.D.S
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Cant see a Henry and Sarah on any census with Elizabeth - so personally I would want to know where the compilers of the trees got that info from - e.g the christening details.
Anyway, I was thinking about this thread, and go back to one of my initial questions - have you got a child's birth cert confirming that their mum's maiden name was Banyard?
If not, one explanation of the situation could be that Mrs Elizabeth Addison was not nee Banyard at all, and the marriage cert with dad Charles relates to another couple altogether, a Henry and Elizabeth Anderson, as per cert.
Thus 'your' Elizabeth, born 1842ish in Dowham is ELizabeth something else.
I know there is not an obvious marriage for Henry Addison to an Elizabeth (other than Anderson to Banyard) but maybe they didnt actually marry, or something.
Agatha. if you havent got a child's birth cert, I think, in my humble opinion, that is the way forward, to get some sort of confirmation that the Banyard track is the right one, seeing as nothing on it makes sense!
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morning all, i just registered with this site and am reading this with interest as my great great grandmother is the Elizabeth married to Henry Addison, im stumped because my grandads tree in inherited has Elizabeth Newman b 10 May 1842 and but all records point to Elizabeth been a Banyard, i have birth certs for their children which gives me a puzzle, James William Addison born 1871 born to Henry and Elizabeth (formerly Banyard) and then 2 years later in 1873 theres Louisa Elizabeth Addison born to Henry and Elizabeth (formerly Newman)
i have more but its early, i shall go through it all in few and return, hopefully someone is still reading this
Michael Addison
PS theres lots of Banyards and lots of Newmans in my paperwork
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I've been reading this for the first time - now Elizabeth Newman does make sense. You have a birthdate of 10/5/1842 and she was bp'd.15/5/1842 Downham Market, dau. of James Newman and wife Elizabeth.
Here it goes 'sticky' again. James and Elizabeth were apparently already married in 1841 but I can find no obvious marriage for them. Nor can I find an obvious death entry for Elizabeth between 1842 and 1849 - James Newman, as a widower, remarried 17/9/1849 Downham Market to a Louisa Beckett, spinster.
In 1851 Downham Market James and new wife Louisa appear with Elizabeth b.1842, James b.1846 and Louisa b.1850 and a Charles Banyard b.1833 East Dereham who is shown as a nephew.
So, were James and first wife Elizabeth actually married? What was Elizabeth's maiden name (Banyard maybe hence dau. Elizabeth's confusion as to whether she was actually a Banyard if she'd found out her parents hadn't been married!!!)?
As Elizabeth Newman's actual birthdate is known has her birth certificate been acquired?
Annette
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1851 census ref. is HO107-1830-240-8.
Annette
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you make it seem so easy, no, i dont have a birth cert but i do have some more knowledge here
'Elizabeth Banyard 1942 is registered and baptised as Elizabeth Newman, her mother was Elizabeth Banyard nee Beckett c.1810, i presume she was still married to Charles Banyard but living with James Newman, she died 1847 Downham, James then marries Louisa Beckett 1849, possibly Elizabeths sister'
i havent yet got stuck into this one but i plan to after lunch, theres more bits here about Banyards and Newmans but its lots of jumbled up names and dates, address' in Sheffield helpfully enough theres some 'gaps' in the tree i was given (literally gaps due to some poor photocopying skill in the past)
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ok, i also have
http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Marriages&RecordID=1661274
but its spelt Anderson which im thoroughly sure is a mispelling of Addison because everything else works out, just makes me more confused, i think it needs fresh eyes and some sort of logic machine to straighten it out for me
what you say about her been confused as to her father/surname sort of makes it seem easier to take in,
i think the Robert in this is standing in for Henrys father because he is absent *cough*
forgot to mention that Robert Addison is Henrys uncle, Susans brother
, but whats happening with Charles Banyard and James Newman! is it a mistake and charles is her son or brother or had someone dragged him in? lol
but i think if we could crack this nut then it would solve alot of mystery with other people i have spoken to about this, i talked to the oldest living Addison i know who would have known these people but she says that ernests generation nver had much to do with nor knew much about their grandparents.
County Norfolk
Place Downham Market
Church St Edmund
RegisterNumber 90
MarriageDate 22 Oct 1865
GroomForename Henry
GroomSurname ANDERSON
GroomAge 22
GroomParish Downham
GroomCondition Bachelor
GroomOccupation Lab
GroomAbode
BrideForename Elizabeth
BrideSurname BANYARD
BrideAge 24
BrideParish Downham
BrideCondition Spinster
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode
GroomFather
Forename Robert
GroomFather
Surname ANDERSON
GroomFather
Occupation Lab Decd
BrideFather
Forename Charles
BrideFather
Surname BANYARD
BrideFather
Occupation Lab Decd
WitnessOne
Forename James
WitnessOne
Surname NEWMAN
WitnessTwo
Forename Harriett
WitnessTwo
Surname BUSSELL
Notes
Banns; He Xd
FileNumber 14613
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Think the only certain way to 'crack' this is to get the birth certificate of Elizabeth Newman to ascertain the name given for her mother.
If, as seems likely, James Newman wasn't married to Elizabeth, it seems odd that the local vicar at Downham Market would have recorded the baptism as Newman and naming James and Elizabeth as the parents. It was only a small place and surely their 'situation' would have been known. I note that Charles Banyard b.1833 is with James' parents Elias and Rebecca Newman in 1841 at Kings Lynn. From what I can gather not too hot on ages - in 1841 James and Elizabeth are shown as aged 20 but she was b.1810 and he 1814!
The only certainty I can suggest is as mentioned before - the Elizabeth Newman birth certificate 1842 to establish mother Elizabeth's surname once and for all.
Annette
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good thinking, i just trying to order the Elizabeths birth cert, Henry and Elizabeths marriage cert and one of their childrens birth certs, just make sure i got it nailed down all round.
its all good fun this
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alrighty then, to keep anyone following this thrilling saga
Elizabeth Newman born 10 May 1842 at Downham, to James Newman and Elizabeth Newman (formerly Beckett)
my great grandfather Ernest Addison was born 1889 to Henry Addison and Elizabeth Addison (formerly Banyard)
getting the certs only managed to prove that i need to find some old people and harass them until i get answers, but interestingly i have managed to find a living neighbour of theirs, not sure how to start the conversation with the old girl "hi, my great grandparents lived nextdoor, now tell me what you know!"
oh, and my dad had another rumage thru papers and gave me more names, all Newman, i think i may move my focus to someone else and resign to never knowing the truth to this
Michael Addison
attached is the face of the enemy, elizabeth with ernest, dont know who the kid or the dog are
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I still believe the scenario I listed before is correct.
Elizabeth Beckett bp.28/11/1810 Reymerston, dau. Wm and Phoebe (nee Good)
Louisa Beckett bp.7/2/1819 Reymerston, ditto
So these 2 definitely sisters.
Elizabeth Beckett married Charles Banyard 5/2/1833 Reymerston - their apparent only child, Charles b.16/5/1833, bp.2/5/1833 East Dereham.
By 1841 Elizabeth is living with James Newman and has taken his name. Her son Charles is with James Newman's parents. Her husband Charles, a Horse Keeper, is living alone in East Dereham.
In 1842 James Newman and said Elizabeth, still in Downham have a daughter Elizabeth who is registered and baptised as Newman. Legally, as her parents were not married, she should have been registered under her mothers given name, and legally this was Banyard.
If the vicar who married them asked some pertinent questions it might have emerged that her parents had never been married and thus, correctly, he listed her as Elizabeth Banyard - no wonder the poor woman was confused. Legally a Banyard but registered and baptised a Newman (name of her actual father).
Can't figure out what happened to Charles Banyard, senior. He was not the Charles Banyard died and buried 1845 - this was another one (shown as a Gent) who was married to a Sarah at East Dereham and listed as a widow in 1851.
Regardless of the shenanigans along the way, your Elizabeth was the daughter of James Newman and Elizabeth (nee Beckett) who was legally still a Banyard at the time of her birth.
Annette
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your great at this, im using your exact words to explain this to others, i managed to confuse myself trying to explain it in my own words
many thanks
Michael Addison
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Glad it all makes sense for you now.
Good luck.
Annette
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I still believe the scenario I listed before is correct.
Elizabeth Beckett bp.28/11/1810 Reymerston, dau. Wm and Phoebe (nee Good)
Louisa Beckett bp.7/2/1819 Reymerston, ditto
So these 2 definitely sisters.
Elizabeth Beckett married Charles Banyard 5/2/1833 Reymerston - their apparent only child, Charles b.16/5/1833, bp.2/5/1833 East Dereham.
By 1841 Elizabeth is living with James Newman and has taken his name. Her son Charles is with James Newman's parents. Her husband Charles, a Horse Keeper, is living alone in East Dereham.
In 1842 James Newman and said Elizabeth, still in Downham have a daughter Elizabeth who is registered and baptised as Newman. Legally, as her parents were not married, she should have been registered under her mothers given name, and legally this was Banyard.
If the vicar who married them asked some pertinent questions it might have emerged that her parents had never been married and thus, correctly, he listed her as Elizabeth Banyard - no wonder the poor woman was confused. Legally a Banyard but registered and baptised a Newman (name of her actual father).Can't figure out what happened to Charles Banyard, senior. He was not the Charles Banyard died and buried 1845 - this was another one (shown as a Gent) who was married to a Sarah at East Dereham and listed as a widow in 1851.
Regardless of the shenanigans along the way, your Elizabeth was the daughter of James Newman and Elizabeth (nee Beckett) who was legally still a Banyard at the time of her birth.
Annette
Possibly and probably correct but she registered her son Charles as a Newman who then changed to Banyard who then in census states he is born London until the 1911 census where he puts Norfolk, dies Sheffield 1923
Possible Elizabeth is working London 1860'S,
a very tangled web that has had me bamboozled for the past ten years or so.
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I now know that Elizabeth Banyard's mother left her father Charles when pregnant, for a Man called James Newman, Elizabeth was registered Banyard at birth but Christened Newman, and appears as newman on the census's, so which one is actually her father is anyones guess.
Thankyou everyone for your help