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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: ardchronie on Sunday 16 October 11 16:33 BST (UK)
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Hello all. I was digging around trying to find out more about my Barclay ancestors from Glasgow, and found, unfortunately, that many of the family died young. They are in the Register of Burial as being buried at St David's "in the lair of Baillie". I think St David's refers to the Ramshorn churchyard, as the family lived in this area in John Street and Duke Street, but I'm not sure what the Baillie bit means. There is no-one in the family of that name, so, seeing as they were not very well off, I wondered if it referred to some sort of charity or paupers' burial plot.
Does anyone have any info?
Thanks very much
Archronie
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Hi Archronie
Sorry, can't help with the issue of the lair and its ownership :-\
Not sure if you are local. If not, thought you might like to see some photos and notes from the cemetery http://urbanglasgow.co.uk/archive/ramshorn-glasgow-merchants__o_t__t_555.html
Monica :)
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Hi ardchronie,
Presumably you've got an image of the whole page?
If so, check down the rest of the 'Lair Owners' and see if there's any references made to Common Ground.
I've got a page which sounds similar to the one you have and it also has a reference to 'Baillies'. The page I have is from 1841 and the lady in question was Elizabeth McLachlan, wife of Alex. Cameron.
On the same page, there are (more than) a few entries listed as as 'Comm' - presumably Common Ground, so this possibly indicates that the Baillie Lair was privately owned?
Not helping you much though!
Anne
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Hi Monica and Anne
Thanks very much for your replies. It was great to see some photos of the area and where my ancestors ended up.
I will have a closer look at the other entries on the page, Anne. I did wonder if "Baillie" meant the equivalent of "Council" or something. Haven't found anything concrete on Google (or elsewhere) yet though.
One more question to add to my family history list!
Thanks for both your help!
Tessa
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Glasgow & West of Scotland Family History Society produced a small book of Monumental Inscriptions and lair records for the Ramshorn Burying Grounds and the crypt of St David's back in 1983. According to that, there is only one Barclay mentioned - Elizabeth Barclay died 12th December 18(61) aged 6 years. She is mentioned on the stone belonging to the Fleming family. Another stone on the same plot mentions the surnames of Scott, Reid, Seth and Lawson.
The name Baillie only appears once, as a wife's maiden name - married name Robertson.
Baillies of the town are mentioned quite often, as witnesses to the lair purchases and transfers, then they are recorded as "John Smith, baille" or "John Brown, baillie". Always baillie is in lower case. There is also mention of "Town Ground" "Common Ground" and "Public Ground" but no mention of "Baillies Ground".
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Hello Lodger - would it be possible to ask for a check for any Menzie/Menzies burial in the book you have about St David's church ? I have a burial for John Menzie on the 3rd March 1840 in Baillie's Lair there and wondered if there was any way to find out if there was a headstone or any other details available about him? Thank you !
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DMHolden,
There is only one mention of that name, the stone reads -
"The burying ground of John Robertson, merchant, Glasgow & Katherine Menzies his wife & children 1794".
(This was wrongly indexed in the book as being entry 50 - 4. I found it as entry 58 - 4).
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Lodger, thank you so much for such a speedy reply - I wonder now if perhaps John was related to Katherine and they had a family plot with space for another burial. Much appreciated and thank you again for your kind help.
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Glasgow has more than a dozen baillie's at present, honorary title of senior councillors!
Skoosh.
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Skoosh - So are the Baillie's Lair(s) named after someone who held that position or because of the first family to purchase gravespace was called Baillie? Are there Lairs in other graveyards but called by a different name/surname? They don't exist in England as far as I am aware so it is fascinating to hear about them.
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There is no mention in the Ramshorn/St David's MI book of "baillie's lairs". Skoosh is quite right, a baillie was an old Scottish term and the closest modern-day equivalent is a town/city councillor.
I have ploughed through old Scottish churchyard and burial ground records, not to mention city and burgh records (mostly in the Glasgow/Lanarkshire area) but I have never come across the term "baillie's lair/plot".
If I did come across a mention of "Baillie's plot" I would presume it refered to a family by the name of Baillie.
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I am quoting from the record shown on Scotland's People - there is a column headed 'In the Lair of' and then various names/Common are written I have attached a snip of the book page - the details of the person being buried are on the opposite page. The snip starts with the initials of the Undertaker and includes a note that there was a hearse and two horses.
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Yes, I see what you mean. all I can say is that these are burial records, the book I have is monumental inscriptions only. There were 2 distinct burial grounds here - St David's churchyard (founded 1720) and the Ramshorn Burying Ground (founded 1780).
The "Baillie's" may have been a piece of common (or public) ground, probably in the Ramshorn ground that was set aside for children (how old was your John Menzie in 1840?) or for indigent family members of baillies of Glasgow? Perhaps purchased for that purpose by a bequest? Who knows.
The records used to be kept by Glasgow City Archives (previously Strathclyde Regional Archives) and may still be there (with copies at Edinburgh) but because of the current situation, the Archives are closed. There is also an old book, possibly there is a copy in the City Archives at the Mitchell Library, called "Story of the Ramshorn Churchyard" by Rev E. Sherwood Gunson, published 1910. It may have some useful information.
I wonder what "2 off 76" means against Robt Cooper? Interesting that there is no Robert Cooper in the index for the MI's. "W&L" stands for Wylie & Lochhead, undertakers.
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That's in the Number and Wall column, then the next column is the Churchyard - this varies from St David to College to one that says 5 of N2 WMW ? John was 34 at the time of his burial. With his occupation being a Tavern keeper I am hoping there might be something in the Archives about licensing records - I haven't found a record in the on line available Street and Trade journals for the time of his death
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There was the "Baillie Institution" whose library was in the former St David's Free Church in Miller Street and was endowed by a George Baillie. Presumably the "Baillie" had a section in the Ramshorn & the Old College in the High Street, one imagines, might also have required a plot for staff or students dying far from home? 2 off 76 must be a lair.
Skoosh.
The Merchant's House should have some record of your man.
https://www.merchantshouse.org.uk
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Thanks - I will message them :)
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As far as I understand "2 off 76" meant that plot (or lair) 76 was against a wall and this interment took place in the second plot in from No.76. An odd way of doing it but it probably made perfect sense at the time. I have no idea what the letters stand for. There are an awful lot of "dittos" in that column, that's a little odd too.
Skoosh - good idea to try the Trades/ Merchants House.
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Thank you both - been very helpful to get others opinions and guidance.