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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Foehn on Saturday 15 October 11 11:19 BST (UK)
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Great grandfather Toledo Frankfort Hamilton FIELD was born in Sydney. At least that what it says on his Death certificate. Going by his age at death that would have made his birth year about 1837, yet I cannot find him. His most likely parents were Robert Field and Margaret Drummond who were married in Tasmania on 1 February 1836 and were later recorded as passengers from Hobart to Sydney the same year, so Toledo's birth certain fits here.
Is there anyone out there, who may have been searching the same surname, who has come across this birth anywhere.
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Where and when did Toledo Frankfort Hamilton Field die?
Can you give his marriage details and children please..... names, dates, places.
Do you have any other reason to think Robert Field and Margaret Drummond might be his parents?.
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More info on this link
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0fnp/
Cando
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Where and when did Toledo Frankfort Hamilton Field die?
Can you give his marriage details and children please..... names, dates, places.
Do you have any other reason to think Robert Field and Margaret Drummond might be his parents?.
Thanks for your reply Wivenhoe.
Toledo Frankfort Hamilton Field died at the home of his Daughter Margaret Elizabeth Beasley, on 30 May 1922 and is buried in the Waikaraka Cemetery, Auckland NZ
I do have all his details re marriage and children although I am not sure how this can help. Please let me know if you do require them.
According to his death certificate he was born in Sydney circa 1837.
It is the elusive link to his father Robert Field I require. I am aware of the work done by A C Field. (aka) Lance and I worked together on the project that netted us most of the information. The link provided by Cando though, has a huge injustice I believe to our family. Lance got really frustrated by the brick wall we ran into over Robert and chose to ignore one of the strongest pieces of evidence we had. His death was reported by his son Toledo.
I hope this link will open for you.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=DSC18630926.2.19&srpos=5&e=-------10--1----0robert+field-- (http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=DSC18630926.2.19&srpos=5&e=-------10--1----0robert+field--)
You will note that the newspaper advertisement says quite clearly that Robert Field was "Formerly of Dublin" There is other evidence to support the fact that Robert Field was an Irishman. He was also in the Bay of Islands in 1830, therefore making it unlikely that he was in prison in Australia until "pardoned" several years later. The Robert Field/ Margaret Drummond is likely, unless Robert (ours) was never in Tasmania to begin with, but he certainly was in Sydney (birth of his son) and I suspect his daughter too, who died in Auckland in the 1840s aged 4½. Her name was Elizabeth.
Therefore, despite good work carried out by others, unless I can find a proper paper trail, I do not believe that Our Robert Field was either English, or imprisoned as shown in Cando's link. Any help to unravel this mystery is greatly appreciated.
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More info on this link
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0fnp/
Cando
Thanks for the link Cando. I am aware of the work done by my cousin A. C. (Lance) Field, but as you will see from my post above, that brick wall we ran into was a great source of annoyance and when Lance brought me the information he had absolutely no proof that the Robert/Englishman/convict was the same Robert as the person known to be our Gts grandfather. I'd really like to clear up this mystery properly if it's at all possible, as now the younger generations are accepting a family line that I am certain is not correct.
Any help greatly appreciated.
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May I add some questions to the others please
Re that cutting from NZ Papers Past and the mention of Robert Field as formerly of Dublin... he was 76 in 1863, so if that is the same chap who married in Hobart in 1836, he was not a young man when he married Margaret Drummond. I note there is no mention of a widow or family for that chap in that notice, nor any mention of NSW or VDL.
Do you think that your Robert Field may have been married previously?
Do you have any sightings for Robert and Margaret Field in NSW in 1837 please?
Do you have any likely arrival dates for Robert and Margaret and Toledo into NZ please?
Do you have any thoughts as to why Toledo has that as his given name please, could that be a clue to parentage?
When Toledo Frankfort Hamilton Field married, I presume it was in NZ, ... does the MC or the ITM give you info about how long he had been in that district, his age, his parents, his place of birth?
Among Toledo's children ... is there a naming pattern to help suggest parentage please..
Cheers, JM
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My request for information about family was due to the lack of detail in your opening note to the forum.
The later link to a previous request at another site gives more information.
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May I add some questions to the others please
Re that cutting from NZ Papers Past and the mention of Robert Field as formerly of Dublin... he was 76 in 1863, so if that is the same chap who married in Hobart in 1836, he was not a young man when he married Margaret Drummond. I note there is no mention of a widow or family for that chap in that notice, nor any mention of NSW or VDL.
Do you think that your Robert Field may have been married previously?
I have no family history either written or anecdotal that he married more than once.
Do you have any sightings for Robert and Margaret Field in NSW in 1837 please?
No. Only have the mention that Toledo was born in NSW (on death certificate)
Do you have any likely arrival dates for Robert and Margaret and Toledo into NZ please?
I picked them up as arrivals from Sydney in 1840
Do you have any thoughts as to why Toledo has that as his given name please, could that be a clue to parentage?
Family story was something to do with a duel fought in Spain, but that may well have been untrue
When Toledo Frankfort Hamilton Field married, I presume it was in NZ, ... does the MC or the ITM give you info about how long he had been in that district, his age, his parents, his place of birth?
I have a copy of the register of Marriage. It has May 27 1876, The Manse St Andrews which was in Christchurch. On certificate it says, Toledo F H Field aged 37 Printer bachelor. (No mention of how long either had been in the country, but his death certificate of 1922, says he was 85 at death and been in NZ for 70 years. The maths doesn't quite work here. Interestingly it also says his father was Henry Frankfort Field, not Robert. So errors I think.)
Marriage continued and Martha Williamson 21 Spinster His first son was born on 3 July 1876 and was also called Toledo Frankfort Hamilton Field . You may surmise that this marriage was not looked on favourably, given age differences and a very pregnant bride who had to wait until she was 21. Family differences were patched up I am glad to say.
Other siblings were Robert Henry, Mary Ann Cissy (named after her grandmother Williamson) William Sydney, Margaret Elizabeth (Likely paternal Grand mother and father's deceased sister) Frederick, Ellen Rose and Alfred Edward.
Among Toledo's children ... is there a naming pattern to help suggest parentage please..
There is an Irish family that is of interest. You can follow my enquiry here on http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,560099.0.html
Notice there are many of the same family names in this line
Thanks for any help you can give, regards, Foehn
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Perhaps one of my questions was not exactly clear....
Do you have any likely arrival dates for Robert and Margaret and Toledo into NZ please?
I had read the link giving 1840, I was asking for the dates .. as in month of 1840...
I have some offline NSW resources and I am happy to look through to try to help, but I was hoping for clues ... I am somewhat confused as to the fundamental question you are seeking answers to. I think you are trying to confirm or eliminate Robert and/or Margaret being Toledo's parents.
Does Toledo's d.c. state Sydney NSW or just Sydney or just NSW please... and is it NS Wales or NS or NSW or New South Wales.
I am in NSW, so I am less sure of NZ admin systems, but have you already tried to confirm or eliminate the newspaper cutting chap as being the husband of Margaret? and/or the father of Toledo?
Have you sought the Intention To Marry document for that 1876 marriage at CHCH .... There are often further details on those.
I will have another look in the morning, hopefully I will have less questions then... It is perhaps near midnight in NZ, as it is near ten pm here.
Cheers, JM
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There is an announcement in the Sydney Gazette of 12 Jan 1837 for a death of a 12 year old lass, daughter of a Captain FIELD. "On Monday, the 9th instant, in Elizabeth street, after a severe illness of up wards of three months, Miss Charlotte Field, eldest daughter of Captain Field, of the Hon. E. I. C's Service, aged 12 years, 9 months, and 7 days." I think that the burial cert for that lass would be indexed in the Early Church Records of NSW BDM as Vol 21, line 2129 of 1837.
I recall that the Portugese also had colonial interests in the East Indies and/or the sub-continent, Toledo may be Portugese in origin? Captain Field's given name is not mentioned in that cutting, link http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2208821
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_India
I have not found Robert Field et al in Sydney circa 1837.
I note that at the link that Cando found and posted for you part of that reads:
"Robert Field aged 49 and Margaret Drummond aged 27 may have left Tasmania on the "SIREN on 20 October 1836 bound for Sydney" .....
I am concerned.... The "Siren" was reportedly in Sydney on the 14th Oct 1836 with passengers , guards from a regiment and 6 prisoners from India. The Siren was ex Hobart. No mention of the surname in the cutting, but I understand that on occasions steerage passenger names frequently were not noted in the newspapers : http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/32152502 Sydney Monitor 17 Oct 1836.
The Siren was still in Sydney on the 20th Oct. as this cutting clearly shows :
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/32152532 Sydney Monitor 21 October 1836
Trove is a real treasure trove, the digitised newspapers section is along the same lines as NZ's papers past, and there are regular additions, just like NZPP too. It is feel to search and there is the option to correct the OCR translations. It is found on the Resources boards for Aust at RChat.
Cheers, JM
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Perhaps one of my questions was not exactly clear....
Do you have any likely arrival dates for Robert and Margaret and Toledo into NZ please?
I had read the link giving 1840, I was asking for the dates .. as in month of 1840...
I have some offline NSW resources and I am happy to look through to try to help, but I was hoping for clues ... I am somewhat confused as to the fundamental question you are seeking answers to. I think you are trying to confirm or eliminate Robert and/or Margaret being Toledo's parents.
Does Toledo's d.c. state Sydney NSW or just Sydney or just NSW please... and is it NS Wales or NS or NSW or New South Wales.
I am in NSW, so I am less sure of NZ admin systems, but have you already tried to confirm or eliminate the newspaper cutting chap as being the husband of Margaret? and/or the father of Toledo?
Have you sought the Intention To Marry document for that 1876 marriage at CHCH .... There are often further details on those.
I will have another look in the morning, hopefully I will have less questions then... It is perhaps near midnight in NZ, as it is near ten pm here.
Cheers, JM
Morning Jm, Sorry, it was a bit late at night for me last night and I was trying to put in as much documented information as I could.
I do not have a date for Robert, Margaret and Toledo's arrival I have looked though my note books but only have 1840 recorded. The book I got this information from was a small publication of early settlers in the Auckland area and gave only years, no dates or ships and I recall Lance and I looked through shipping but found nothing conclusive.
No I was not aware of intention to marry records, but that will be worthwhile checking.
Toledo's death certificate only records Toledo as being born in Australia. (family oral history put him in Sydney)
I am confident that Robert Field and Margaret were Toledo's parents. (Just not sure if the Field/Drummond marriage is the one I need. Margaret is named on his death certificate His father though recorded as Henry Frankfort on Toledo's DC is also named as the late Robert Field, in the obituary published Auckland Star 5 June 1922. This also mentions a surviving brother William Field who was well documented as an insurance fireman (known as Captain) William was a half brother however and when he died he was buried as William Mcguire. In the article, it says that Toledo's indentures as a printer to Williamson and William Chisholm Wilson, were signed by both printers, Toledo and his father.
In the death report at BDM, Toledo is named as the son of Robert field and reported his father's death (as per that clipping)
What I am trying to establish is that Robert Field was not English, as per the unsubstantiated "clipped on family" but rather that he was indeed Irish.
Two ships that are possibilities to put Robert Field in Bay of Islands in 1830 are "Elizabeth" from Sydney in march 1830 and the Brig "Wellington" 25 January 1827 also from Sydney . Other early ships to bay of Islands are "The George Osbourne" 14 August 1825 from Gravesend
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Hi there,
ITM ... Intention To Marry ... I have often noticed mentioned on the NZ board at RChat. Perhaps you could post a request on that board asking for a look up as you have the date for that marriage. As I understand it, each marriage needed the parties to provide their details to the clergy and the clergy recorded that information on his ITM form. That then caused the announcement (ie banns etc) in that local parish, so that any objections could be addressed before the ceremony.
I understand that many ITMs have been indexed but I am not sure where in NZ those indexes are held. NZ Rchatters would know this of course.
Here is the link to the NZ Board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,299.0.html
Many thanks for explaining why you are confident that Robert and Margaret are the names of Toledo's parents. I agree, if a son provides info for his own father's d.c. well, that's a fair certainity ;) Is there any other info from that 1863 record that you think will help? Those early records can be somewhat scant in the info though.
Re Captain William (insurance fireman) ... who was his Dad .... have you checked with any descendants on Captain William's line to see if they have any BDM info for his parentage ... Could be they have confusing details eg a mention of Henry in lieu of .......?
I wonder if the expression "English" was perhaps being very strictly interpreted by some researchers at some stage? I feel sure that the "English" landlords in "Ireland" in the early 19th C would have considered their children born in Ireland to be "English" rather than "Irish".
I have not found Robert/Margaret/Toledo FIELD in any of my offline NSW resources. I cannot find them in any TAS Archives online either. But if they were in VDL, then perhaps they went directly to NZ from there?
Cheers, JM
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Have you actually sighted this article about Toledo, 1922?
"...His father though recorded as Henry Frankfort on Toledo's DC is also named as the late Robert Field, in the obituary published Auckland Star 5 June 1922. This also mentions a surviving brother William Field who was well documented as an insurance fireman (known as Captain) William was a half brother however and when he died he was buried as William Mcguire. In the article, it says that Toledo's indentures as a printer to Williamson and William Chisholm Wilson, were signed by both printers, Toledo and his father.
It might be quite informative if it mentions the names of people involved in his indenture.
If you have identified a half-brother then that should give you two more points of reference for Toledo's origins - second marriage for parent, and birth certificate for William. Do you have these certificates?
The marriage certificate that you have...is it an image of a handwritten original, or a typed transcript please?
The NZ BDM index has his name at marriage as Tolade. It might be an error on a transcription.
Who are the witnesses on the marriage certificate.
What is the earliest record that you have of Toledo....apart from what you are finding after his marriage in 1876?
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Re those indentures with Toledo and his father signing these... any date/place included in that document please
* eg I, Robert Field Esq of ..............., New Zealand, on this day ............. of the month of .............. in the year of ..............
Cheers, JM
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Can you please give all the information on the 1863 death certificate for Robert Field.
Probably not much at that early date, but I think you have Toledo as the informant and it would be useful to know how he names himself.
Just Toledo...or the other names as well...or?
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Can you please give all the information on the 1863 death certificate for Robert Field.
Probably not much at that early date, but I think you have Toledo as the informant and it would be useful to know how he names himself.
Just Toledo...or the other names as well...or?
Not much on the certificate. Place of registration: AucklandName and surname:Robert Field Profession or Occupation: Cabinet maker. Sex, age, DOB: M 76 Numbers, 1-19 not registered If issue living state ages of each sex: M F When died: 25 September 1863 Where died: Private Hospital
Cause of death: General debility.
The certificate does not record that Toledo reported the death. That was on a separate report which was held at the Auckland office of BDM. It definitely said Son, Toledo. No other names recorded
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Re those indentures with Toledo and his father signing these... any date/place included in that document please
* eg I, Robert Field Esq of ..............., New Zealand, on this day ............. of the month of .............. in the year of ..............
Cheers, JM
I have never seen the actual indenture. I only know of it's existence (at one time) due to the mention in the Obituary. Will try attaching the PDF file of the Obituary. Ok that didn't work the file is too big so I have converted it to a jpeg.
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Hi there,
Have you checked the files that are indexed at Archways for Toledo Field and for his Dad ?
Particularly :
there's one for Toledo and the Auckland Rifles ... I am thinking of a likely date and place of birth on enlistment and there's two for correspondence from a Robert Field in 1841 (Schedule A - letter dated 23 March 1841 to Colonial Secretary, New South Wales (registered file Colonial Secretary 41/4442; writer - Robert Field, respecting claim to land at New Zealand - Case 294) . Perhaps noting the name of the arriving ship, and also his native place.
Cheers, JM
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The obituary is a great document and very informative.
About the death certificate...is Toledo identifying father Robert's living issue as one son and one daughter....being Toledo, a daughter...and no mention of William.
Did Robert Field leave a will?
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Have you actually sighted this article about Toledo, 1922?
See jpeg below. It is a faithful copy. I do have a photostat of the actual article but it has blackened over time and would not scan well anymore.
"...His father though recorded as Henry Frankfort on Toledo's DC is also named as the late Robert Field, in the obituary published Auckland Star 5 June 1922. This also mentions a surviving brother William Field who was well documented as an insurance fireman (known as Captain) William was a half brother however and when he died he was buried as William Mcguire. In the article, it says that Toledo's indentures as a printer to Williamson and William Chisholm Wilson, were signed by both printers, Toledo and his father.
It might be quite informative if it mentions the names of people involved in his indenture.
If you have identified a half-brother then that should give you two more points of reference for Toledo's origins - second marriage for parent, and birth certificate for William. Do you have these certificates?
Captain William Augustus Maguire, called himself Field all his life, as I think Margaret Field left Robert for William Mcguire's father. She was buried as Margaret Field, so it seems that she and McGuire snr never married. I have looked at all these certificates, have William A Mcguire on them and no mention of the Field side apart from his mother and of her, no other details pertaining to birth.
The marriage certificate that you have...is it an image of a handwritten original, or a typed transcript please?
It is a handwritten marriage certificate
The NZ BDM index has his name at marriage as Tolade. It might be an error on a transcription.
Looking at the hand writing I can see how they made an error. Both the e and o look quite similar
Who are the witnesses on the marriage certificate.
Witnesses were John Lyle and Elizabeth Scarlet
What is the earliest record that you have of Toledo....apart from what you are finding after his marriage in 1876?
Apart from early police census' when he is only mentioned a a male 7-15 years in 1845, he appears as himself in electoral rolls from 1855 to 1862 as living in Thompson's lane and then Albert street in 1863 onwards. He disappears from the Auckland rolls in 1868 and I think that was when he went to Christchurch.
Continued from new post. Yes that would be correct just one son and one daughter. Toledo's mother though has two sons and one daughter on her death certificate. No ages given. Pretty sure his sister died at 4½ however as no other record found of her. While it is a guess as to her name, I am confident it was Elizabeth, due to Toledo's daughter being called Margaret Elizabeth.
We found no wills, but we did unearth a swag of land sales after Robert cut up the allotment he had into small holdings. Field's Lane in Downtown Auckland is his monument.
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Hi there,
Have you checked the files that are indexed at Archways for Toledo Field and for his Dad ?
Particularly :
there's one for Toledo and the Auckland Rifles ... I am thinking of a likely date and place of birth on enlistment and there's two for correspondence from a Robert Field in 1841 (Schedule A - letter dated 23 March 1841 to Colonial Secretary, New South Wales (registered file Colonial Secretary 41/4442; writer - Robert Field, respecting claim to land at New Zealand - Case 294) . Perhaps noting the name of the arriving ship, and also his native place.
Cheers, JM
What is Archways? I haven't heard of that.
I have two instances of claims published in the NZ Government gazzette in respect of Robert Field's land claims in the Bay of Islands. The claims were lodged in 1841 in respect of land purchased in 1830. He paid 10 pound an a double barrel shotgun for 250 acres on the other side of the isthmus that Korarareka (Now called Russell) stands
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Archways, sorry I should have written Archway.
http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/
"Welcome to Archway, Archives New Zealand’s system for documenting government records in the context of their creation and use.
Archway contains descriptions of over 1.5 million records that have been transferred from government agencies to our four offices in Auckland, Christchurch, Dunedin and Wellington. This will increase over time as additional records are added to the system."
Cheers, JM
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Archway. Those three last files are likely to be his first son who also had the same name except for the small variation in Frankfort=furt. He died in 1928. Only the mounted rifles are likely. he was a reservist for WW1
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Some of the CHCH files are not currently available due to the recovery after the Earthquakes, but I think you can organise for access if you ask ... There are good RChatters on the NZ board who will know the NZ system far better than me. Are you NZ based?
Cheers, JM
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I have two instances of claims published in the NZ Government gazzette in respect of Robert Field's land claims in the Bay of Islands. The claims were lodged in 1841 in respect of land purchased in 1830. He paid 10 pound an a double barrel shotgun for 250 acres on the other side of the isthmus that Korarareka (Now called Russell) stands
I wonder if the Gazette had a typo in it... 1830 .... could that be 1839 ..... Reason : A NSW Survey Party was in NZ and they were still measuring etc in 1839, whereas in 1830 the NSW Survey Office was re-organising and seeking further funding from Whitehall in London to continue to operate and to catch up on existing demands for releases of land in NSW and to send out survey parties in the NSW counties to satisfy the demand for land.
Cheers, JM
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Some of the CHCH files are not currently available due to the recovery after the Earthquakes, but I think you can organise for access if you ask ... There are good RChatters on the NZ board who will know the NZ system far better than me. Are you NZ based?
Cheers, JM
Yes.
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I have two instances of claims published in the NZ Government gazzette in respect of Robert Field's land claims in the Bay of Islands. The claims were lodged in 1841 in respect of land purchased in 1830. He paid 10 pound an a double barrel shotgun for 250 acres on the other side of the isthmus that Korarareka (Now called Russell) stands
I wonder if the Gazette had a typo in it... 1830 .... could that be 1839 ..... Reason : A NSW Survey Party was in NZ and they were still measuring etc in 1839, whereas in 1830 the NSW Survey Office was re-organising and seeking further funding from Whitehall in London to continue to operate and to catch up on existing demands for releases of land in NSW and to send out survey parties in the NSW counties to satisfy the demand for land.
Cheers, JM
I think it would still work at 1830. Robert alleged he bought it then, but lodged the claim in 1841. The Johnson claim which was on the south of Robert's claim was the only one allowed. Would be good to sight that letter.
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The letter should be in the file that Archways holds.
Also noticing these indexed :
From: Robert Field, Auckland To: [Willoughby Shortland, Esquire] Colonial Secretary Date: 23 March 1841
From: Robert Field, Auckland To: James Coates, Esquire Date: 28 June 1841
From: George Cooper, Treasury, Auckland To: [Willoughby Shortland, Esquire] Colonial Secretary Date: 13 September 1841
And the option to ORDER details brings up the file numbers, so you should be able to get access to the contents of the files. I think the ones above are at the Wellington Offices, but as I mentioned earlier, I am not familiar with the NZ admin systems, and I am confident that the NZ Rchatters will know the NZ system far better than me. I am very NSW Centric.
Here's the link to the RChat NZ resources Board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=299
and a friendly welcome from their Moderator is at this link
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,503066.0.html
Cheers, JM
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Some thoughts
Rhetorical
If Robert purchased land in NZ in 1830, who was he purchasing it from, where was he located when he entered into that private arrangement and how was the land described.... I can well understand how his application would have failed. I think Whitehall at one time recognised applications from mid or late 1835 .... or when ever the Declaration of Independence for NZ was ratified in that year.
If Robert was in VDL at that time, perhaps he was with a regiment on garrison duties, and had shared conversations with some of those on the whaling vessels trading between the South Sea Islands and Hobart and Sydney etc.
As his land claim of 1841 was disallowed by the Colonial authorities, had he been stepping outside his authority when he entered into that 1830 agreement to purchase land in NZ
New Zealand was administered by the Governor of NSW until William Hobson of the Royal Navy who was firstly appointed as Lt Governor (with guidance from NSW) and then appointed Governor in his own right .... I think he would be the same RN chap who served in VDL in the 1830s ....
Cheers, JM
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Hi,
Here is a curious article in PP,did Toledo have a sister called Emily?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0fqj/
Cheers Janette
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Well found Janette ;)
I see that NZ BDM online has that marriage indexed for 1861. so a copy or printout of that should help to confirm or eliminate her, and if I am reading Foehn's posts correctly, I think Robert Field was still living when that lass married.
Can you please give all the information on the 1863 death certificate for Robert Field.
Not much on the certificate. Place of registration: AucklandName and surname:Robert Field Profession or Occupation: Cabinet maker. Sex, age, DOB: M 76 Numbers, 1-19 not registered If issue living state ages of each sex: M F When died: 25 September 1863 Where died: Private Hospital
Cause of death: General debility.
The certificate does not record that Toledo reported the death. That was on a separate report which was held at the Auckland office of BDM. It definitely said Son, Toledo. No other names recorded
MODIFYING TO ADD
Daily Southern Cross, Volume XIX, Issue 1933, 26 September 1863, Page 3
DEATH.
On September 25th, after a long illness, Mr. Robert field, formerly of Dublin, aged 76 years. His remains will be removed from the hospital to-morrow (Sunday) afternoon at three o’clock. Friends will please accept this invitation.
Cheers, JM
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Hi,
If purchasing info from NZ BDM's you are best to purchase a printout not a certificate as there is more info on a printout
https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Glossary/
Cheers Janette
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Robert is buried in the Symonds St cemetery
The Anglican St Paul's register has Robert Field buried 27 September 1863, aged 76 years from the Colonial Hospital. Service by Rev Lloyd - reference 51/
Subjects Field, Robert, d.1863
Symonds Street Cemetery
You may get more info from the Anglican Archives
http://www.auckanglican.org.nz/?sid=301
Cheers Janette
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Hi,
Here is a curious article in PP,did Toledo have a sister called Emily?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0fqj/
Cheers Janette
Janette, thanks so much for this. I have posted the extract with the Irish group to see if it is linkable with Monkstown and the family I have been interested in.
I see the marriage is recorded in BDM,NZ but their site has now gone down, so need to wait to see if I can get further information. It was indeed a marriage in 1861. I have been wondering, but this is mere speculation, that Toledo may have put that in the paper (for his sister?) he was a fully fledged printer by 1868.
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Robert is buried in the Symonds St cemetery
The Anglican St Paul's register has Robert Field buried 27 September 1863, aged 76 years from the Colonial Hospital. Service by Rev Lloyd - reference 51/
Subjects Field, Robert, d.1863
Symonds Street Cemetery
You may get more info from the Anglican Archives
http://www.auckanglican.org.nz/?sid=301
Cheers Janette
I know roughly where Robert's grave is. Auckland Public library had a printout of various graves and his was on it. I have never been brave enough to visit this part of the city mainly due to street kids and vagrants living under the nearby Grafton Bridge. One day I will if I can go with a group.
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If you are in Auckland,a visit to the Auckland Library's research room would be worthwhile.
The Auckland Star and NZ Herald are on film and you may find more on Toledo
Cheers Janette
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Some thoughts
Rhetorical
If Robert purchased land in NZ in 1830, who was he purchasing it from, where was he located when he entered into that private arrangement and how was the land described.... I can well understand how his application would have failed. I think Whitehall at one time recognised applications from mid or late 1835 .... or when ever the Declaration of Independence for NZ was ratified in that year.
If Robert was in VDL at that time, perhaps he was with a regiment on garrison duties, and had shared conversations with some of those on the whaling vessels trading between the South Sea Islands and Hobart and Sydney etc.
As his land claim of 1841 was disallowed by the Colonial authorities, had he been stepping outside his authority when he entered into that 1830 agreement to purchase land in NZ
New Zealand was administered by the Governor of NSW until William Hobson of the Royal Navy who was firstly appointed as Lt Governor (with guidance from NSW) and then appointed Governor in his own right .... I think he would be the same RN chap who served in VDL in the 1830s ....
Cheers, JM
Case number 294 published in the NZ govt. gazette reads
Robert Field of Auckland Claimant, 250 acres more or less situated at Paroa Bay in the bay of Islands, bounded on the north by the sea, on NW by a creek called Putu Kokoa, on the SE by Wai Wakarawa, & on south by Johnson's land.
Alleged to have been purchased by the present claimant in 1830 from Native Chief Monau, otherwise Charlie Korokoro for £10 and double barrelled gun. deed of gift.
The claim was not allowed.
We rather thought he was trying to curry favour with the Governer of NZ, The Sir George Gipps (Australia)
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The Sir George Gipps Hotel fronting High street and a corner pf Government lane. William Kendell (Kendells were in B of I too. I think they had something to do with appropriating Baron De Thierry's funds.) respectfully announces that he has opened the extensive two storied premises (recently built by Mr. Field)as an hotel and has laid in a stock of wines, spirits etc.
AK Herald & gazette 30 Nov. 1841.
William Kendell ran this hotel for a year and then Robert Field took ownership of it once again changing its name to The New Coffee House. Teetotallers were pretty active in these years.
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Case number 294 published in the NZ govt gazette ......... .
We rather thought he was trying to curry favour with the Governer of NZ, The Sir George Gipps (Australia)
That case number you are quoting is the same case number that I noted at reply #17. It is my understanding the file will be in New Zealand in one of their Archives Offices, and I expect the NZ Archives may have more information than just the notice in the gazette. There may even be documents signed by Robert Field so that you could examine the signature to compare with your current holdings.
I do not know much about the Governors of NZ, but I do have some details about Sir George Gipps, Governor of the Colony of New South Wales 24 February 1838 to 11 July 1846. Surely it was Captain William Hobson RN who was the Lieutenant-Governor stationed in NZ when Case 294 was being dealt with.
I have asked for this thread to be moved to the New Zealand Board where I am sure that there will be willing helpers with much better understanding of the Admin system in that fine nation.
Cheers, JM
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Hi Foehn,
What information do you need now? it may pay to make a brief summary of what is needed now the thread has been moved to the NZ board
Cheers Janette
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Hi Foehn,
What information do you need now? it may pay to make a brief summary of what is needed now the thread has been moved to the NZ board
Cheers Janette
Thanks Janette. The main purpose of the thread was to prove or disprove the
1. That the Robert Field /Margaret Drummond marriage in Hobart, Tasmania 01 Feb 1836 were the parents of Toledo Frankfort Hamilton Field
2. That Robert Field was Irish.
3 To solve the parentage of Elizabeth Field who died in Auckland aged 4½ 1840s
4 Investigate the marriage of Emily Field and Iver McIver in connection with her father Robert
5 Check intention to marriage for Toledo Field and Emily Field
6 check correspondence in connection to Robert Field's land claims.
Think that's mostly it, with the new possible leads discovered.
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I have never been brave enough to visit this part of the city mainly due to street kids and vagrants living under the nearby Grafton Bridge. One day I will if I can go with a group.
I think there was an idea a while back, of a group of Auckland Chatters going in a group to have a look at graves. Can you remember Janette?
Cheers
KHP
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I think it was an idea that never got off the ground,maybe we could think about it again
Cheers Janette
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Toledo F Wilson
Marriage Place West Australia
Reg Place Gascoyne West Australia
Reg Year 1921
Reg Number 2
just in case it fits anywhere
sylvia
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Hi Foehn,
I see from your post above that you were seeking the Intention to Marry Notice for Toledo FIELD and Emily FIELD.
If you still want a transcription of this record I can look for it if you can provide a date and location of the marriage.
Spades
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Just cruising thru' this puzzle - and I feel you may have made an assumption about Robert Field's death entry:
Place of registration: Auckland Name and surname:Robert Field Profession or Occupation: Cabinet maker. Sex, age, DOB: M 76 Numbers, 1-19 not registered If issue living state ages of each sex: M F When died: 25 September 1863 Where died: Private Hospital
Cause of death: General debility.
In 1863 the 'ages and sex of living issue' was not recorded on death entries - there was simply no provision for it in the death register.
I think it's just a 'happy accident' that this family appears to have only two children alive in 1863 and that this 'appears' to match the death entry. If the family had been larger you would have wondered where the rest of the children were.
What you also have is one of the drawbacks of using modern information fields for older records - in the 'olden days' (only a few years ago!) you would have received a photocopy of the register entry. Although the writing could be difficult to decipher there was no doubt about the quantity of info you received.
'Ages and sex of living issue' didn't show until 1875 when the information recorded on death entries was considerably extended. After that date the entry would normally show info along the lines of: M 22 15 F 20. People would guess if they didn't know the exact age - and still do!!
Have a look at the BDM website under 'Data Collected' - 'Deaths' for a listing of the info fields recorded at various times.
Best wishes
Elli
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No assumptions. There is other evidence in support of Robert Field's death entry.
Although police census of that time was a little broad in that ages were written by "range" never-the less two children appear in the census' for the 1840s and his wife's death certificate also supports this. She died in 1879
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Hi Foehn,
I see from your post above that you were seeking the Intention to Marry Notice for Toledo FIELD and Emily FIELD.
If you still want a transcription of this record I can look for it if you can provide a date and location of the marriage.
Spades
Thanks Spades. I will follow up with information later.
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Apologies - I obviously read more into Reply #18 and #19 than was actually there.
Just didn't want anyone else to think they could get the 'ages and sex of living issue' from a pre-1875 death entry ....
Best wishes
Elli
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Hi Foehn,
What information do you need now? it may pay to make a brief summary of what is needed now the thread has been moved to the NZ board
Cheers Janette
Thanks Janette. The main purpose of the thread was to prove or disprove the
1. That the Robert Field /Margaret Drummond marriage in Hobart, Tasmania 01 Feb 1836 were the parents of Toledo Frankfort Hamilton Field
2. That Robert Field was Irish.
3 To solve the parentage of Elizabeth Field who died in Auckland aged 4½ 1840s
4 Investigate the marriage of Emily Field and Iver McIver in connection with her father Robert
5 Check intention to marriage for Toledo Field and Emily Field
6 check correspondence in connection to Robert Field's land claims.
Think that's mostly it, with the new possible leads discovered.
Hi there,
Re your points # 2 & # 6
Have you ordered/received any of the papers from the various archives mentioned earlier in this thread? Archway NZ and also NSW SR ... including #17, #27, #36,
I notice on one of the Colonial Pardons at the NSW SR that there’s a description of a Robert Field, transported to NSW under a Life sentence, ex the Ocean. In 1834 he was 5 ft 4 in, with Fair, ruddy complexion, Sandy to Grey hair and Grey eyes. He had been tried 20 March 1815 in Somerset (England), however that obviously does not mean he was born and/or raised in Somerset. It is entirely possible he was born in Ireland, and was raised or spent much of his early life in England. I can see that that particular Robert Field was at Port Stephens, NSW from at least 1819. Perhaps after his CP he then went to Tasmania.
Apart from the Newspaper announcement in the Daily Southern Cross, 26 Sept 1863 stating that Mr Robert Field, “formerly of Dublin....” you also mentioned (#3) that he was in the Bay of Islands in 1830, and that it was unlikely that he was in prison in Australia until ‘pardoned’ several years later.
May I ask please, what other evidence do you have that Toledo's father was Irish?
You will note that the newspaper advertisement says quite clearly that Robert Field was "Formerly of Dublin" There is other evidence to support the fact that Robert Field was an Irishman. He was also in the Bay of Islands in 1830, therefore making it unlikely that he was in prison in Australia until "pardoned" several years later. The Robert Field/ Margaret Drummond is likely, unless Robert (ours) was never in Tasmania to begin with, but he certainly was in Sydney (birth of his son) and I suspect his daughter too, who died in Auckland in the 1840s aged 4½. Her name was Elizabeth.
Therefore, despite good work carried out by others, unless I can find a proper paper trail, I do not believe that Our Robert Field was either English, or imprisoned as shown in Cando's link. Any help to unravel this mystery is greatly appreciated.
I doubt he was actually “in prison”, rather, I have always presumed that the majority of those persons transported to NS Wales were assigned by the government to other settlers who were then responsible for the day to day needs of the convicted persons. It is thus entirely possible that that Robert Field while nominally at Port Stephens throughout his servitude was perhaps part of a party led by that settler from Port Stephens to the Bay of Islands. You need to remember that the NS Wales governors at that time believed they were responsible for the administration of quite a large territory on both sides of the ditch.
Cheers, JM
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Hi Foehn,
I was just researching William Chisholm Wilson today and found your post on your ancestor. WC Wilson owned the New Zealand Herald newspaper and I believe his sons then owned it before selling it in the late 20th century. Wilson came from Scotland to Tasmania (van dieman's land) 1833-1841; then to Sydney before going to NZ to start his newspaper business.You may find information on your ancestor on Papers Past NZ.
Cheers,
Caromac
Hobart Tasmania
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Sorry I have been so long getting back to this. Afraid that three family deaths in a row, did not help.
JM askedMay I ask please, what other evidence do you have that Toledo's father was Irish?
Some of it is anecdotal. My grandmother for instance was proud of her Irish blood, and as her mother's family came from Great Moor near Manchester, then her Irish blood could only have come through Robert Field's line. There is a lot of newspaper clippings related to Robert Field, since he stuck out as a character in Auckland from 1840 to his death in 1863. He lost his publican's license for running the old harp of Ireland up the very British flag pole on Saint Patrick's day and spoke of his "Drouthy Freens" in connection with his makeshift raupo whare from whence he dispensed liquor, both spiritous and fermented. A Drouth as far as I know is an Irish measure or drink of alcohol
He also passed an Irish drinking flask (silver) down through one line of the family.