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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: kiwi-terrier on Saturday 15 October 11 00:32 BST (UK)
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Helping an old friend with this ( normally its horse pedigrees not human ones)
Ellen DOUGLAS abt 1859 Newcastle, England m 1888 Auckland, John LUND abt 1852 Finland
John died 1890 in Auckland, no mention of wife names or child's age on death certificate. Does appear in paper past with matches the death certificate.
Had one child, she married 1912, mother's name changes to Elizabeth not Ellen LUND
Can not find Ellen after 1896 , she appears on the 1893 / 1896 in Eden & Waitamata - Waitakerie
Does not appear on paper past.
Have looked on the BDM for a remarriage plus all my discs, nothing.
Any ideas where she went ?
Regards
Kiwi-terrier
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Hi KT
Mmm .... is this Ellen/ Elizabeth ?
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Auckland Star" - 4 February 1891 - A Sad Case
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"Auckland Star" - 19 May 1900 - Untitled
Ellen Elizabeth LUND ??
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link for above
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0fnb/
Bye
althea
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KT ... another possible sighting - 1901 ?? ( Ellen LUND )
"Auckland Star" -- 28 May 1901 - Mahuta ... etc.
(Mid-way down article).
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Ellen DOUGLAS abt 1859 Newcastle,
Hi KT
I wonder if this his her ? (Surname misspelt ? )
1920 - LAND - Ellen - aged 59 years (bc 1861)
~ Lu
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Link for post 2nd above 1901 Mahuta etc
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0fnc/
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Yes, the links to newspapers have already been given.
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KT
Maybe the "1920 - Ellen LAND" is someone else ? :-\
There is however a probate file available at Archives NZ (Auckland).
LAND - Ellen - widow - 1920
~ Lu
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~~~~~~~~
Yes, the links to newspapers have already been given.
references were, hyperlinks added for quick review
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The newspaper articles I believe are not her.
There is another family of LUNDS from the Norsewood area.
The Ellen LAND has a probate so will get that check out.
Will ask my friend about this when he returns home.
Kiwi-terrier
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Ellen Land is buried at Purewa
http://www.purewa.co.nz/details.asp?id=38184&type=Burial
Bye
Althea
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Thanks Althea
Kiwi-terrier
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It would be great if right person
there are LAND on the NZSG index and Ellens and Elizabeths...so hope its not a red herring
but certainly worth eliminating
there are lots of other LAND family at Purewa
Bye
althea
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Hi Kiwi-terrier
Ellen LAND d. 1920 ... sorry, wrong person . :(
She is buried with a John LAND - d. 1917 :
[Probable marriage: John LAND - Ellen THUNDER -- 1880 ?]
~ Lu
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The newspaper articles I believe are not her.
There is another family of LUNDS from the Norsewood area.
Birth
1889 - LUND - Eda Ellen
Mother: Elizabeth / Father: John
[Abovenamed is the only LUND female who marries in 1912 ? ]
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The 1912 marriage is the daughter Eda Ellen and that's her birth.
Does Ellen / Elizabeth LUND (mother) appear on any Electoral Rolls after 1896, nothing on 1911.
Ask my friend if he knew anything about Ellen LUND, its a mystery to him
kiwi-terrier
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1900 and 1905 are indexed
Ellen/Elizabeth not in those
Bye
althea
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Have spoken to my friend about his grandmother.
No body in his family knows where she is buried or what happened to her.
Regards
Kiwi-terrier
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The newspaper articles I believe are not her
Hello KT...
Can't help in locating your friend's grandmother (sorry) but I'm curious as to what made you discount the Ellen LUND that Lucy found at PapersPast...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0g38/
Auckland Star - 4 February 1891 - A Sad Case
....especially as you were the one who said that there's a link between the BDM NZ 1912/6035 marriage of Eva Ellen LUND to George Lewis HANDCOCK and the BDM NZ 1889/16347 birth of Eva Ellen LUND (who would be the two year old mentioned in the newspaper clipping)
Birth
1889 - LUND - Eda Ellen
Mother: Elizabeth / Father: John
Abovenamed is the only LUND female who marries in 1912
The 1912 marriage is the daughter Eda Ellen and that's her birth
I'm assuming BDM NZ has mis-transcribed Eva as Eda, but I've seen worse.
Has your friend thought of purchasing the birth certificate of one of the other children mentioned in the newspaper clipping.
Here's a likely candidate...
BDM NZ Births - 1883/6182 - FONG, George - mother: Elizabeth father: Ah
Assuming Ellen filled in the mother's details honestly it should clear up if she is your friend's grandmother. Might also point to where the name SEFFIELD comes into it cos I can't find a SEFFIELD/DOUGLAS marriage anywhere.
If this is your friend's grandmother it sounded like she was heading for a paupers grave. Possibly the records of the Charitable Aid Board could be your next port of call.
Regards
Beg
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Am trying to get hold of my friend and get him to have another look and try to see if he can jog some of the family to see if any of this rings bells . ;D ;D
What I should have said that Ellen LUND is his great grand mother & Eda is his grandmother.
Had a look at BDM for the children named:
Elizabeth Ann FONG b 1886
GEORGE FONG b 1883 sold to a chinaman ??
Lily ??? b ???,
There is a Lily Fong on BDM with different parents born after 1901
Also a Lily Chow FONG married 1919 Yip BOR, not sure if same as above.
Eva Ellen LUND maybe Eda Ellen Lund b 1889.
Wonder if Ellen Elizabeth DOUGLAS married in the UK and came to NZ with ? SHEFFIELD, took up with Ah FONG (children) and then married John LUND. At present it could fit in with the dates.
A mystery lady with many names.
Regards
Kiwi-terrier
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....especially as you were the one who said that there's a link between the BDM NZ 1912/6035 marriage of Eva Ellen LUND to George Lewis HANDCOCK and the BDM NZ 1889/16347 birth of Eva Ellen LUND (who would be the two year old mentioned in the newspaper clipping)
I'm assuming BDM NZ has mis-transcribed Eva as Eda, but I've seen worse.
... just to clarify the listings at NZ BDM ;)
Birth -- 1889 - LUND - Eda Ellen
Mother: Elizabeth / Father: John
Marriage -- 1912 - LUND - Eda Ellen - to HANDCOCK
It is only in the newspaper article - "Auckland Star" - 4 February 1891 where the child of Elizabeth LUND is shown as "Eva" Ellen LUND.
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Had a look at BDM for the children named:
Elizabeth Ann FONG b 1886
GEORGE FONG b 1883 sold to a chinaman ??
Lily ??? b ???,
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0g38/
Auckland Star - 4 February 1891 - A Sad Case
In the above article, the children of Elizabeth LUND are described as ranging in age from 2 years to 10 years.
Further info contained in article suggests that Elizabeth Ann and George are the two older children ... so one of them, (probably Elizabeth Ann), has a birth year circa 1881 (rather than 1886). ;)
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GEORGE FONG b 1883 sold to a chinaman ??
(
[From previously mentioned article - 4 February 1891]
The boy George FONG (a.k.a. SEFFIELD) is present in Court with his sisters (Feb. 1891).
The articles speaks of "another child - a boy aged 5 years" who was sold by his mother to a Chinaman .... "when the last Chinese steamer was in (port ?) and the boy was taken to China". (So this is yet another son of Elizabeth LUND - but is not the child, George.)
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Ellen DOUGLAS abt 1859 Newcastle, England m 1888 Auckland, John LUND abt 1852 Finland
Had one child, she married 1912, mother's name changes to Elizabeth not Ellen LUND
Hi KT
Does your friend have this 1912 marriage printout (cert.) ?
* What info has the bride given for her mother's maiden name ?
~ Lu
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** correction ** to my reply # 23
Should read .... "the boy George LUND (a.k.a. SEFFIELD) .... (rather than George FONG)
:-[
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Mmm ... some interesting info from Ah FONG (and a Thomas Ah QUOI) which contradicts several of the statements in the February 1891 case. ???
"Auckland Star" - 13 May 1886 - Resident Magistrate's Court
[Excerpt from article]
Ah QUOI v. Ah FONG, claim for L5-16s-6d :
The debtor {Ah FONG} said he was cook by profession. Had a boarding house. Couldn't get on.
.... had a wife and 3 little ones. Had been out of work since Saturday. The claim was for rent.
Did not get married at a church, but some other place.
Thomas QUOI {presumably Thomas Ah Quoi ?} deposed to the nature of the debt, the debtor was never married and had no children. A female came to the creditor's house from Dunedin and Ah FONG became interested, but she is not his wife. The husband sought his lawful wife and Ah FONG was afraid and hid himself.
Ah Fong : How do you know that she was not my wife before the other man's ?
Ah QUOI was about to explain when His Worship suggested that it was unnecessary to go further into the case.
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Ellen DOUGLAS abt 1859 Newcastle, England m 1888 Auckland, John LUND abt 1852 Finland
Does above info come from the marriage cert. ?
* Are names of Ellen's parents available, please ?
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Hello Lucy :-)
... just to clarify the listings at NZ BDM
It is only in the newspaper article where the child of Elizabeth LUND is shown as "Eva" Ellen LUND.
A most peculiar spelling. I wouldn't be surprised if Eva was mis-pronounced as Eda by an older child, then the name just sticking.
Elizabeth FONG b 1886
Lily b. ?
Possibly Elizabeth b.1886 was called Lily by the same child that mis-pronounced Eva :-)
(Isn't Lily what Princess Margaret called QE2 as a child).
Ellen DOUGLAS abt 1859 Newcastle, England
Wouldn't be surprised if Newcastle, England is actually Newcastle aka Ngaruawahia. Or maybe the Newcastle that was down in Fiordland. The number of fudgements I've come across recently on BDM certificates makes me doubt our forebears from the get go.
BDM NZ lists an 1860 birth for an Elizabeth DOUGLAS. Must check the Births fiche for the registration district :-)
(Having said that FreeBDM does list an Elizabeth DOUGLAS b.1859 in Newcastle upon Tyne so that's most likely the lady in question)
Regards
Beg
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Elizabeth b 1886 Abercombie St Auckland is the daughter of John FONG & Elizabeth, she is a half sister to Eda Ellen LUND.
The George FONG b 1883 is not related or is a Lily Chow FONG.
kiwi-terrier
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The SEFFIELD name does notcomes up on BDM
kiwi-terrier
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Hello KT...
Apologies for asking questions. I'm still a bit confused.
Elizabeth b 1886 Abercombie St Auckland is the daughter of John FONG & Elizabeth
i) How did you link Elizabeth b.1886 to the Abercrombie Street address (which is possibly the same residence as mentioned in the Auckland Star - 4 Feb 1891 - A Sad Case (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0g38))
and
ii) From where did you get the name "John FONG".
I see the BDM NZ Birth 1886/9474 listing for Elizabeth FONG has her father as John but have you purchased the corresponding birth cert/printout and does it list the father as "John FONG" or "John something else" or even just "John no last name". Or are you just reading the BDM website and joining the father's name to the family name.
In other words, are Ah FONG (mentioned in the Auckland Star - 4 Feb 1891 - A Sad Case (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0g38)) and John FONG the same person or different people.
The George FONG b 1883 is not related
What makes you say this.
The BDM NZ Births Fiche entry 1883/3111 for George FONG gives his birth registration district as Dunedin, which is where the widow Elizabeth SEFFIELD was living when she met and had two children by Ah FONG (according to the Auckland Star - 4 Feb 1891 - A Sad Case (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0g38)). Presumably one of the children was George and the other was "given away to a Chinaman for £5".
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I'm assuming the person you're helping has read the Auckland Star article. Does he feel it's the right Elizabeth LUND.
More importantly...do you think it's the right Elizabeth LUND :-)
Personally, I think it is as Eda is the link (or "Ada" according to BDM NZ 1886 Births fiche, which then amended the entry by hand to Eda)
I'm also willing to bet that Elizabeth b.1886 was the child known as Lily. Have the people you're helping looked into Lillian Elizabeth LUND d.1966 aged 77, buried in Hamilton. There's no death notice in the Waikato Times unfortunately but it would be nice to have a sneaky peek at her death certificate.
Regards
Beg
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I'm also willing to bet that Elizabeth b.1886 was the child known as Lily. Have the people you're helping looked into Lillian Elizabeth LUND d.1966 aged 77, buried in Hamilton. There's no death notice in the Waikato Times unfortunately but it would be nice to have a sneaky peek at her death certificate.
Archives NZ (Auckland) hold a probate record for Lillian Elizabeth LUND - Spinster, formerly of Papatoetoe.
[Given your luck k-t, in finding death certs. attached to probate files, it might be worth checking this one out ? ] :D
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Have found that Elizabeth FONG entered the Industrial School as Elizabeth SEFFELL, she died in 1897 and is buried in Purewa as SEFFELL.
Lily FONG no birth registration found yet, Entered Industrial School as Lily FONG.
but died as Lillian Elizabeth LUND and yes the probate gave us the answer ( so 1/2 sister to Eda Ellen LUND).
Many thanks for the pointer.
Eda Ellen LUND also in the Industrial School.
George SEFFIELD / SEFFELL / SEFFIEL does not appear . Note different spelling of surname
Next step is the Charitable book George is mention there. Will do that at a later date.
It gives the name of the father for SEFFELL as Thomas SEFFELL and he was deceased.
It also mentions that Ah (John) FONG went to Newcastle, New South Wales.
Ellen LAND definitely not our Ellen / Elizabeth LUND
Ran out of time to look any further.
Many thanks for the pointers, great help.
Regards
kiwi-terrier
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Lily FONG aka Lilian Elizabeth LUND death certificate shows no parents, but says born Auckland. Wonder what information she gave for old age pension.
Regards
Kiwi-terrier
PS the George FONG born in Dunedin is not him.
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Hi again...
Have found that Elizabeth FONG entered the Industrial School as Elizabeth SEFFELL, she died in 1897 and is buried in Purewa as SEFFELL
Her death notice at PapersPast
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0h53/
It gives the name of the father for SEFFELL as Thomas SEFFELL
More than likely her birth at BDM NZ
1879/11028 - SEFFILL, Elizabeth Anne - mother: Elizabeth father: Thomas
Post-1875 so might be worth purchasing
PS the George FONG born in Dunedin is not him
We'll have to agree to disagree :-)
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
Did find that one, am waiting for it to turn up with other certificates.
The George FONG b Dunedin mother is an Elizabeth but not the right Elizabeth - have birth certificate.
Yes have seen death notice
It would seem these is TWO Elizabeth
1) 1879 Elizabeth Ann
2) 1886 Elizabeth
3) ???? George
4) abt 1889 Lily aka Lillian Elizabeth
5) 1889 Eda Ellen
Was there and Industrial School for boys, as the books I found the girls stated Girls Industrial School ?
Will keep you all posted thing turn up.
Regards
Kiwi-terrier
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Hi KT...
The George FONG b Dunedin mother is an Elizabeth but not the right Elizabeth - have birth certificate.
You win :-)
Out of interest, does the birth cert for George FONG mention a mother's maiden name (or previously married name). Would really like to trace him and find out where I went wrong.
Was there an Industrial School for boys, as the books I found the girls stated Girls Industrial School ?
NZETC has a little bit on an industrial school. Don't know if it's the Parnell one as I don't know Auckland
http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-Cyc02Cycl-t1-body1-d1-d22-d37.html
Regards
Beg
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FONG George b 9 July 1883 9 Princes St Dunedin
Father: Ah FONG aged 45 Born China
Mother Elizabeth nee Young FONG aged 26 Born Ireland
married 15 April 1875 Christchurch
kiwi-terrier
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Thanks KT. I wasn't even close :-(
When I've a moment I think I'll trace the mother just out of curiosity.
Thanks
Beg
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That's okay, I do the same , get sided track on to other bits.
Certainly a hard family to trace.
kiwi-terrier
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Was there and Industrial School for boys, as the books I found the girls stated Girls Industrial School ?
Hi K-T
Yes there were separate boys / girls industrial schools (sorry, can't help with specific names for those in the Auckland area.)
Have you had a look at what's available here ?
http://archives.govt.nz/research/guides/education
See "Industrial and Special School Holdings" :
~ Lu
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Hi KT,
This may help,there was the Kohimarama Industrial school for boys
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewRelatedEntities.do?code=1955&relatedEntity=Item
Cheers Janette
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FONG George b 9 July 1883 9 Princes St Dunedin
Father: Ah FONG aged 45 Born China
Mother Elizabeth nee Young FONG aged 26 Born Ireland
married 15 April 1875 Christchurch
When searching earlier for records of children of Elizabeth / Ellen, I happened upon the following at FamilySearch. [ It's submitted info with no source quoted.]
At the time I thought it interesting in that it had a reference to Auckland; was for a "George FONG" with a mother named Elizabeth, and the date of birth was remarkably close to that of the George born in Dunedin. ???
George Young FONG
Birth: 5 July 1883 - Auckland, NZ
Father: Thomas Young FONG
Mother: Elizabeth
And now the Dunedin George's birth record reveals that his mother's maiden name was "YOUNG".
Hmmm .... :-\
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Superb as ever Lucy
I'm back in the running :-)
Beg
EDIT:
And her birth year is only a couple off Elizabeth DOUGLAS
EDIT2:
And there's no record of the 1875 Chch marriage at BDM NZ or on the NZSG Marriages CD.
Will need to check the BDM NZ Marriages fiche to be sure (and ultimately the ITM's)
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I'm back in the running :-)
Beaut ... and don't even think about deserting us now ! :D
There's much to ponder.
* Mother born Ireland ... maiden name YOUNG ? (How Irish is that surname ? ) ;D
* Supposedly married to FONG in 1875 ? Seems odd that there is only one birth (some 8 years later) - George, 1883 - registered for this couple. [All up, there's only a handful of births for the FONG surname. ]
* It's long "troubled" me, that Elizabeth wed Mr LUND in 1888, using the name "Ellen DOUGLAS". ??
[Evidence presented by the Police in the 1892 case, suggested she was a widow - possibly named SEFFEILD (SEFFELL) or somesuch. So why use "DOUGLAS" ? Why is she "Ellen" for the purpose of marriage and "Elizabeth" when registering the births of her children ? ]
???
~ Lu
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Elizabeth Ann Seffell / Sellfill death cert, no parents mentioned or where born.
Kiwi-terrier
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Elizabeth Ann Seffell / Sellfill death cert, no parents mentioned or where born.
Hi KT :-)
That's a nuisance to say the least.
Just wondering if finances allow you to order her 1879 birth certificate
1879/11028 - SEFFILL, Elizabeth Anne - mother: Elizabeth father: Thomas
Common sense(?) says it's the same girl. Maybe the parent's details are more complete.
Regards
Beg
PS - Totally understand that money doesn't grow on trees :-)
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That certificate has been ordered, just waiting for it turn up.
;D
kiwi-terrier
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Hi KT,
I'll get the ITM for you.
Spades
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Hi Beg
This will make your day, had another look on Elizabeth FONG birth cert
it shows a marriage date ( drum roll please ;D )
Aug 1882 Dunedin John FONG / Elizabeth DOUGLAS
Kiwi-terrier
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.... had another look on Elizabeth FONG birth cert
it shows a marriage date ( drum roll please ;D )
Aug 1882 Dunedin John FONG / Elizabeth DOUGLAS
Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be a marriage record for this particular couple.
In the article "Auckland Star" - 4 February 1892 - A Sad Case - page 4, Ex-Detective STRATHERN had this to say regarding Elizabeth LUND*.
"The children in Court were the children of Mrs LUND, a widow.
She was widow (Mrs SEFFIELD) living in Dunedin with her two children, when she took up with a Chinaman, Ah FONG and lived with him as his wife and had two children by him. After removal to Auckland where they continued to cohabit till about 3 and half years ago, he left her and went to Newcastle".
* Elizabeth LUND : Married as "Ellen DOUGLAS" to John LUND in 1888.
No recorded marriages found for either a John FONG or an Ah FONG.
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Hi K-T
From the birth cert. for Elizabeth FONG (1886) can you tell us please, the following :
* Age of father, John FONG
* Age and place of birth of mother, Elizabeth DOUGLAS.
Thanks.
~ Lu
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Hi Beg
This will make your day, had another look on Elizabeth FONG birth cert
it shows a marriage date ( drum roll please ;D )
Aug 1882 Dunedin John FONG / Elizabeth DOUGLAS
Kiwi-terrier
Hi again KT...
We really do need some sort of whiteboard to link all of the names, dates and locations given in this thread so far (like on the US cop shows) but I guess pen and paper will have to suffice.
Unsurprisingly I'm still confused about the middle(?) daughter Lily/Lillian (who I'd bet is the Elizabeth b.1886 in Dunedin).
Just seeking clarification so no urgency...
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It would seem there are TWO Elizabeth
1) 1879 Elizabeth Ann
2) 1886 Elizabeth
3) ? George
4) abt 1889 Lily aka Lillian Elizabeth
5) 1889 Eda Ellen
Upon what are you basing the "abt 1889". Is it just Lillian Elizabeth LUND's year of death (1966) minus age at death (77 years).
Or do you have have a death certificate or such. If so, who was the informant and were parents mentioned.
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Have found that Elizabeth FONG entered the Industrial School as Elizabeth SEFFELL she died in 1897 and is buried in Purewa as SEFFELL
What made you say Elizabeth FONG was Elizabeth SEFFELL. Was there some note in the Industrial School records linking the two.
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Elizabeth FONG entered the Industrial School as Elizabeth SEFFELL
Lily FONG [...] entered Industrial School as Lily FONG
So an Elizabeth SEFFELL and a Lily FONG are definitely on record as entering the Industrial School. Is there a separate record for the aforementioned Elizabeth FONG.
And, out of interest, what information do the Industrial School records contain. Age, nationality, parents etc
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Entered Industrial School as Lily FONG but died as Lillian Elizabeth LUND and yes the probate gave us the answer
How did the probate link Lily FONG and Lillian Elizabeth LUND.
---------------------------------
Just trying to get a clearer picture of Lily. Even though this isn't your original request (which was find the mother) every bit of info helps, as you well know :-)
All the best
Beg
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Will go over them on the weekend and try and sort them out, now that I have most of the certificates. Waiting on Elizabeth B.C
Going through the charitable books I found Elizabeth LUND was now Ellen LUND and no Lily FONG but a Orpehus FONG. ???
Still trying to find George SEFFELL . Going through the Kohimarama Boys School, still a few books to look at.
kiwi-terrier
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Hi KT...
It seems that Orpheus was the child sold for a fiver
PapersPast
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0h8e/
The ages of the children are listed which is helpful. It seems both Lily and Orpheus were five. Possibly twins?
------------------------------------------
Have you come across a Violet anywhere?
BDM NZ Births 1878/1882 - Violet SEFFIEL, daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth. Born 17 Oct 1877
BDM NZ Deaths 1878/1199 - Violet SUFFEL. Died 17 Feb 1878, aged 4 months
Burial Locator says Malvern which I think is Selwyn District
http://www.selwyn.govt.nz/services/cemeteries/cemetery-database
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg, better call you super sleuth ;D
Hell Bells what a mother. :o :o
No have not come across a Violet Seffiel, nothing in the card sytem (Archives) with that spelling
All my friend wanted to know happened to his great grand mother, still can not find her, but have discovered his grandmother had 1/2 siblings.
kiwi-terrier
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Hi Beg, better call you super sleuth
Not at all. It's just PapersPast, BDM NZ and Althea's trick of using Soundex.
Plus nothing worth watching on TV :-)
Regards
Beg
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Hi KT,
NZSG have a Death certificate in their collection for Violet Suffel. Place of death Kowai Pass, NCY, NZ. Hope that helps.
Cheers
KHP
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Thanks for that KHP , no wonder I can not find anything under that name, keeps changing.
Will sent for it.
Kiwi-terrier
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Hi again...
Maybe (or maybe not) Thomas and Elizabeth arriving into Canterbury, although her age is out by a few years assuming she was born in 1859.
The passenger list mentions Northumberland which is the county in which Newcastle-upon-Tyne is located (according to google)
Cardigan Castle - 1877
SAFFALL, Thomas (aged 35) + Elizabeth (aged 23) + William (aged four months)
LDS Family Search
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11741-138888-70?cc=1609792
Regards
Beg
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Brilliant finds Beg. :) EXTRA well done !! :)
~ Lu
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In the article "Auckland Star" - 4 February 1892 - A Sad Case - page 4, Ex-Detective STRATHERN had this to say regarding Elizabeth LUND*.
** CORRECTION **
date of newspaper should read ... 4 February 1891
(not 1892).
:-[
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BDM NZ Births 1878/1882 - Violet SEFFIEL, daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth. Born 17 Oct 1877
BDM NZ Deaths 1878/1199 - Violet SUFFEL. Died 17 Feb 1878, aged 4 months
Burial Locator says Malvern which I think is Selwyn District
Thomas, Elizabeth and William SAFFALL per "Cardigan Castle" arrived Christchurch 1877 :
On the passenger list image, a (faint) note in side column alongside of their surname, seems to indicate that the family were destined for "Malvern".
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Yet another spelling .... SAFFAL .... :D
I wonder if the following is the same Thomas SAFFALL who arrived in Canterbury in early 1877 with wife Elizabeth and infant son, William ?
"Grey River Argus" - 17 July 1886 - page 2
PUBLIC NOTICES - Missing Friends
[Abbreviated]
"Thomas SAFFAL, aged about 50* .... left home last Monday ... taking his 12 year old son. Information thankfully received by Mr and Mrs ALLAN, Taylorville " :
[* Aged about 50 = bc 1836, so there is about 4-5 years difference in the age given by Thomas SAFFELL (per "Cardigan Castle"). The son said to be aged 12 is however a closer match for the boy William. ]
--------------------------------------------------
"Grey River Argus" - 16 July 1886 - page 2 -- Brunnerton
[Abbreviated]
"SAFFAL ... the man arrived here nearly 2 years ago and left his son with Mr and Mrs ALLEN, who are SAFFAL's wife's parents. "*
* No marriage found for SAFFAL (or var.) nor with cross-checking with the surname ALLEN / ALLAN. ]
[Although Mr and Mrs ALLEN / ALLAN are described as "grandparents", the articles tend to suggest that the boy is the son of SAFFAL, though not necessarily also the son of his (present) wife ?? ]
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"Grey River Argus" - 22 July 1886 - page 4 - Brunnerton
[Abbreviated]
"The man SAFFAL who left here under such mysterious circumstances has been seen crossing the Amuri Plains on the road to Christchurch ....
The boy is with him, so that happily there has been no tragedy. "
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Okay this is what has been found by the sleuths ;D
Thomas SAFFALL / SEFFIELL abt 1841, Ireland m 1875 Ireland to Elizabeth DOUGLAS
William Allan SAFFALL bet 1876-876 b UK/ Ireland, d????
Violet SEFFIELL / SUFFEL b NZ 1877 - d NZ 1878
Elizabeth Anne SEFFILL/ SHEFFIELD / SEFFELL abt NZ 1879 - 1897 ( b/d certificate)
George SHEFFIELD / SEFFELL abt 1883 NZ d ????
Ah FONG / John FONG abt1844 Singapore - to Newcastle NSW ?
and Elizabeth DOUGLAS ( de facto)
Elizabeth FONG b NZ 1886 ( b.certificate)
Lily FONG abt 1887 ????
Orpehus FONG abt 1887 ???? to China ?
John LUND abt 1852 Finland d 1890 NZ m 1888 Ellen DOUGLAS
Eda Ellen / Edie LUND b 1889 - 1921 (b/m/d certificate)
Have Lilian Elizabeth LUND abt NZ 1889 - 1966.
What is Lilian's actually birth name ? nothing on death certificate
Elizabeth / Ellen Douglas daughter of Joseph Douglas & Ellen Allen b 1855, Newcastle, England.
kiwi-terrier
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Hello KT...
Just wondering where you got some of the info. Was it all in this thread (if so just ignore me) or have you other sources.
Namely...
Elizabeth / Ellen Douglas daughter of Joseph Douglas & Ellen Allen b 1855, Newcastle, England
Where did you get the names of Elizabeth/Ellen's parents. It sort of ties in with the newspaper clipping Lucy found (Mr and Mrs ALLEN of Taylorville).
KHP has found an Elizabeth Ellen DOUGLAS on the 1871 UK census, estimated year of birth - 1855
Born in Morpeth, Northumberland, England (which is about 14 miles north of Newcastle-upon-Tyne)
In 1871 it looks like she had left home and is a servant for the EDMUNDSON family in Long Framlington (about ten miles north of Morpeth)
Would be nice to see if she is listed with her parents on the 1861 census but LDS says a FindMyPast sub is needed.
Interestingly (or not), FreeBDM lists an Elizabeth DOUGLAS born in Morpeth in 1854
William Allan SAFFALL
Where did you get William's middle name. No mention that I can see of his 1876 birth on FreeBDM.
Again interestingly (or not) FreeBDM lists a William John SAFFELL born in the second quarter of 1876. Unfortunately the birth is registered in Kent, which is a way from Northumberland. Although close to London from where the Carigan Castle set sail a few months later.
Thomas SAFFALL / SEFFIELL abt 1841, Ireland m 1875 Ireland to Elizabeth DOUGLAS
Where did you get the location of the marriage (Ireland). No mention that I can find on IFHF or the Irish Civil Registration Index
Thanks
Beg
-
Quote:
Where did you get the names of Elizabeth/Ellen's parents. It sort of ties in with the newspaper clipping Lucy found (Mr and Mrs ALLEN of Taylorville).
On Ellen DOUGLAS marriage certificate to John LUND
Quote:
Where did you get the location of the marriage (Ireland). No mention that I can find on IFHF or the Irish Civil Registration Index
On Elizabeth Anne SEFFIELL birth certificate, Co Down, Falshone ? (not sure of the spelling i or s)
Quote
Where did you get William's middle name. William Allan SAFFAL
From the NZSG under Brunnerton School record
kiwi-terrier
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Where did you get William's middle name. William Allan SAFFAL
From the NZSG under Brunnerton School record
Hi KT...
Thanks for that.
Just wondering if William Allan SAFFAL should read something like William ALLAN/SAFFAL considering he may have been staying with his grandparents Mr and Mrs ALLAN/ALLEN of Taylorville whilst going to school up the road in Brunnerton.
Could mean the FreeBDM listing that I mentioned earlier for "William John SAFFELL born in the second quarter of 1876" is still in the running :-)
Regards
Beg
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http://paperspast.govt.nz
"Grey River Argus" - 23 November 1914 - page 4 / column 4
ALLEN - Friends of the late Ellen ALLEN of Taylorville .... her funeral which will arrive at Stillwater Cemetery this day, Monday, at 3 pm.
- W SAMPSON - Undertaker
???
-
NZ Death
1914 / 8296 - ALLEN - Ellen - 82 years (bc 1832)
Date of death (deduced from online index listing) -- 21 November 1914
-
Yes thanks for the additional information, K-T. :)
Every little snippet is of help. ;)
On Elizabeth Anne SEFFIELL birth certificate, Co Down, Falshone ? (not sure of the spelling i or s)
Quote
Where did you get William's middle name. William Allan SAFFAL
From the NZSG under Brunnerton School record
Can we please have all the details from birth cert. of Elizabeth Anne SEFFIELL ?
Also, can you tell us please the the date of the Brunnerton School record for William SAFFAL ... who is listed as his parent/guardian ... and is his previous school listed ?
Cheers
~ Lu
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3 Feb 1885 Bruunerton (William Allan SAFFALL), no other details given.
Have given all the details you need to know on Elizabeth Anne.
kiwi-terrier
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3 Feb 1885 Bruunerton (William Allan SAFFALL), no other details given.
Have given all the details you need to know on Elizabeth Anne.
kiwi-terrier
Mmm ... okay ... thankyou. :)
-
Missing Persons listed in the Salvation Army's "War Cry" - 1890 :
21 June 1890
SAFFEL or DOUGLAS - Mrs. E.
Last heard of in Auckland. Your mother Mrs ALLEN of Taylorville, Brunnerton, near Greymouth, would like to hear from you.
-
Last heard of in Auckland. Your mother Mrs ALLEN of Taylorville [...] would like to hear from you.
Can not find Ellen after 1896, she appears on the 1893 / 1896 in Eden & Waitamata - Waitakerie
Hi again...
Maybe she changed her surname to ALLEN.
There's an Elizabeth Ellen ALLEN on the electoral roll index at ancestry.
1905-1906 - Auckland Central, Auckland
Haven't looked into it (cemeteries, BDM NZ etc)
Regards
Beg
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There's an Elizabeth Ellen ALLEN on the electoral roll index at ancestry.
Regards
Beg
Living in Wellesley Street West, married......Joseph Hall Allen at same address .... a carpenter.
Cheers
KHP
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Don't think it is the Elizabeth Ellen we are looking for.
The Elizabeth Ellen Allen mentioned above became a widow in 1908 and remarried again in 1909 to Gustavus Charles Petersen. There are two deaths for two Elizabeth Ellen Petersens. The dates of births for these two are 1877 aged 34 in 1911 and the other 1878 aged 58 in 1936.
Cheers
KHP
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Hi KHP :-)
Thanks for that. Maiden surname of ARDEM so a non-runner.
--------------------------------------
Off to another loose end then.....
Do we know the name of Ellen ALLENS's husband.
Maybe it's John. Maybe this is his death...
PapersPast - Grey River Argus - 13 Dec 1898
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0hfj/
...in which case this is his death record at BDM NZ...
1898/5444 ALLAN, John - 52Y
...which gives him a birth year of approximately 1846.
This means he might be the John ALLAN aged 30 who, according to LDS, arrived into Lyttleton from Northumberland with his wife Eleanor and two daughters on the Waitangi in 1876...
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11613-71380-27?cc=1609792
Eleanor ALLAN arriving on the Waitangi might be Ellen ALLEN of Taylorville.
But I can't find a record of any births or marriages on FreeBDM so who knows.
Regards
Beg
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Eleanor ALLAN arriving on the Waitangi might be Ellen ALLEN of Taylorville.
Hadn't got around to checking all the passenger list options for ALLAN / ALLEN .... but I think you are certainly onto "something" with the above, Beg. ;)
Earlier I'd followed up KHP's 1871 census find for the Elizabeth DOUGLAS b. Morpeth, which led me back to 1861 and (forward again) to another 1871 return.
There would seem to be some very definite links between the ALLAN family (per "Waitangi -1876) and info from 1861 / 1871. :D
see next >>
-
1861 - Gateshead, Durham -- RG 9/3805
Res. Low Fell, Durham Rd (looks like), Eastside
ARKLES ? / ARKLEY ? (transcribed as "ARKLESS") - James
-- Head - Widower - 63 years - Shoemaker - born Nth. Shilbottle, Northumberland
DOUGLAS - Eleanor - 32 yrs - Servant - unmarried - occ. Housekeeper
-- place of birth shows ditto (same as James ARKLES)
DOUGLAS - Elizth. - dau - 5
DOUGLAS - Joseph - son - 5
-- bracketed, recorded as twins - illegitimate - born Morpeth
// (on next page)
DOUGLAS - Jane - dau - 3 - b. North Morpeth
DOUGLAS - Mary Ann - dau - 1 - b. Durham, Greenside
[Note: Looks like location is in a coal mining community - other listed in area are largely coal miners. ]
see next >>
-
Following the boy Joseph DOUGLAS (twin of Elizabeth b. Morpeth) >>
1871 - Shilbottle - Northumberland -- RG 10/5169
Res. Old Pit House
DOUGLASS - Eleanor - 42 yrs - Head - unmarried
born: Northumberland, Lowich
DOUGLASS - Joseph - son - 17 - coal miner - b. Morpeth
DOUGLASS - Margaret* - dau - 3 - b. Shilbottle
DOUGLASS - Eleanor - dau - 1 - b. Shilbottle
GRAHAM -Thomas - 16 - boarder - coal miner - b. Framlington
-------------------------------------------------
Note: Age of Joseph DOUGLASS - is given as 17 ??
--------------------------------
Per "Waitangi" 1876 :
ALLAN - Eleanor - 39 (bc 1837)
.... y.o.b. doesn't match 1861/1871 returns (but then John ALLAN seems to be quite a few years her junior. Very likely her age has been "tweaked" ?) :D
ALLAN - Margery* (looks like on passenger image ?) - 8 yrs
(Margaret DOUGLASS on 1871 census)
ALLAN - Eleanor - aged 6 years
Note:
The girls Margery and Eleanor (ALLAN ?) have same years of birth as Margaret and Eleanor DOUGLASS - 1871) ???
-
Margery ALLAN (per "Waitangi" 1876) -- connection to West Coast (Greymouth).
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Grey River Argus" - 23 May 1884 - Res. Magistrate's Court, Greymouth
Margery ALLAN testifying in case re: Sarah JONES" :
-
Lu & Beg, KHP
Many thanks for all the information of ALLAN /ALLEN . Have ordered the death certificate for Ellen ALLEN /ALLAN, hopefully if might have details on husband(s) names (s).
Have no idea on the ALLAN /ALLEN background (grandparents).
kiwi-terrier
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Hi Kiwi-terrier,
I had a look for Intention to Marry Notices for the following marriages:
1. John FONG to Elizabeth DOUGLAS August 1882 at Dunedin.
2. Ah FONG to Elizabeth YOUNG 1875 at Christchurch.
I couldn't find a record for either of them.
In the former I checked the register for the last part of July and the whole of August without success. In the latter I searched the card index and while I did find an Elizabeth YOUNG who married at Ellesmere in 1875, when I looked at the microfiche image of the entry she married William HART who was aged 29 and living at Southbridge. This Elizabeth was aged 19 and living at Doyleston.
Spades
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Hello Spades...
On KT's behalf :-) thanks for doing that.
Ultimately an absence of ITMs proves nothing but it's sort of what we were expecting.
I wonder if things were different for marriages involving a person of Chinese descent. I know they were treated very much as second-class citizens back then, both officially and unofficially.
Regards
Beg
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Many thanks for all the information of ALLAN /ALLEN . Have ordered the death certificate for Ellen ALLEN /ALLAN, hopefully if might have details on husband(s) names (s).
Hello KT...
It's great to see that the person you're helping is willing to stump up for multiple certificates. Especially as his original request (find my great-grandmother) seems no closer to being answered. Elizabeth could have hopped a boat to China for all we know.
Personally I think we'll find a pauper's funeral, details unknown. Hopefully I'm wrong, both for her and for us.
Regards
Beg
-
Hello Lucy...
Just following up from your latest posts. No new information as such.
-----------------------------
From LDS "Parish registers of Morpeth, Northumberland, 1583-1940 "
Name: - Elizabeth Ellen DOUGLAS
Gender: - Female
Baptism/Christening Date: - 04 Aug 1855
Baptism/Christening Place: - Morpeth, Northumberland, England
Mother's Name: - Ellen DOUGLAS
Name: - Joseph DOUGLAS
Gender: - Male
Baptism/Christening Date: - 04 Aug 1855
Baptism/Christening Place: - Morpeth, Northumberland, England
Mother's Name: - Ellen DOUGLAS
FreeBMD has the 1854 births but the spelling is Elizabeth Eleanor (not Ellen) DOUGLASS and Joseph DOUGLASS
No mention of their father on LDS
--------------------------------
"The Waitangi" arrives into Lyttleton on 18 Sep 1876.
Registered two months later on the 22 Nov 1876 in Christchurch is the following death
1876/4125 - ALLEN, Ellen - aged 6Y
Possibly Ellen b.1870 ? (daughter of Ellen DOUGLAS and ?)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Margery ALLAN (per "Waitangi" 1876) -- connection to West Coast (Greymouth).
"Grey River Argus" - 23 May 1884 - Res. Magistrate's Court, Greymouth
Margery ALLAN testifying in case re: Sarah JONES"
This may (or may not) be a red herring.
The 1896 electoral roll for Grey lists a "Margery ALLEN, Taylorville - Housewife"
I think she is the wife of the John ALLEN of Taylorville who was killed in the Brunner Mine disaster in March 1896.
I wouldn't be too fussed about the spelling of her surname. Here are two identical news reports in two different papers with different spellings.
Marjory ALLEN (http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=AS18971007.2.29&srpos=2&e=-------10--1----2marjory+allen--)
Marjory ALLAN (http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=GRA18971007.2.20&srpos=1&e=-------10--1----2marjory+allan--)
Here is some info on her from "Australian Mining History"
"Margaret Allen, one of the 37 widows of the disaster, was married to John Allen in Greymouth in 1879, and by 1896 was the mother of 4 children aged 10, 8, 6 and 2. She is the only one to have crossed “the ditch” after the disaster, settling in Melbourne in 1898. The reason for this is not known. She did not remarry"
Here is a link to the source PDF. Not sure if this link will work (http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=%22margaret%20allen%2C%20one%20of%20the%2037%20widows%20of%22&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mininghistory.asn.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F10%2F2010-papers-ex-bell.pdf&ei=CcnMTuOhKMXhiALApYTWCw&usg=AFQjCNE7hnxuNXheiUnpnNLxy_dKzEeWpw) because it's a google session link. And it's a 2MB download so you may not want to download it. Margaret ALLEN is mentioned only the once, on page 95.
As this Margery/Margaret was married in 1879, and the Margery ALLAN on the Waitangi was eight in 1876, they're more than likely two different people.
And at the time of the court case (Grey River Argus - 23 May 1884) Margery from the Waitangi would have only been sixteen. Possibly too young to be on licensed premises. Definitely too young to be in court testifying that she was on licensed premises, especially these ones....Henry Jones, Commercial Hotel (http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=GRA18830622.2.9&srpos=1&e=-------100--1-byDA---2Henry+Jones%2c+commercial+hotel--)
-------------------------------------------------
The 1911 electoral roll for Grey lists an "Eleanor ALLAN, Taylorville - Widow", presumably the mother of "SAFFEL or DOUGLAS - Mrs. E" that you found in "War Cry". There are six other ALLENs listed as living in Taylorville, four miners and two wives. Charles, George, Hugh and John (miners) plus Lily and Alice Mary Maud (wives). Wonder if any of them are half-brothers to Elizabeth Ellen DOUGLAS. If so, wonder if they had families. Maybe there's a descendant somewhere on the West Coast who has all the answers in a suitcase up in their attic
Regards
Beg
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Hi again...
Maybe the son, William.
Maybe not :-)
NSW BDM Deaths
12698/1938 SAFFELL, William Thomas father: Thomas mother: Elizabeth district: Liverpool
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search?SessionID=30704672&event=births
Mentioned on ancestry.com Aussie electoral rolls index too.
Regards
Beg
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death cert for Ellen ALLEN died 1914 Grey River Hospital
aged 82 - old aged
Parents:
John Douglas & Eleanor
Husband(s) & children : unknown ::) ::)
buried Stillwater cemetery
Years in NZ: 36
Many thanks Spades for looking at the ITM, a lot of porkies being told ???
kiwi-terrier
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NSW BDM Deaths
12698/1938 SAFFELL, William Thomas father: Thomas mother: Elizabeth district: Liverpool
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search?SessionID=30704672&event=births
Oooh ... thought I'd already added this death ... but obviously not. :D
Yes, this chap is listed on Australian electoral rolls for following years.
1933 NSW - Parramatta District
1936 and 1937 - Werriwa District (suburb of Liverpool)
1943 (curiously, as this is after his death) - Werriwa Dist.
Same listing for all those years, shows:
SAFFELL - William Thomas - Hill Farm, Hoxton Park -- labourer.
I guess the "positive" is, the names of parents on d/c. ;)
[If ordering death cert. - be sure to use a transcription agent (rather than direct purchase from NSW BMD). Much cheaper - cost works out roughly the same as NZ printout, $20-odd ]
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death cert for Ellen ALLEN died 1914 Grey River Hospital
aged 82 - old aged
Parents:
John Douglas & Eleanor
Husband(s) & children : unknown ::) ::)
buried Stillwater cemetery
Years in NZ: 36
Grrr ... "no husband(s), no children, named. So disappointing K-T. :(
BUT somebody must have known Ellen reasonably well. :-\
Somebody went to the trouble and expense of placing a death notice ??
Sure, the info re: years in NZ might have come from records if she'd applied for a pension.
Who knew her maiden name ... and her parents' names ???
* Is name and address of informant to her death, given on printout ?
~ Lu
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Grey District Council (no cemeteries database online), have burial records for Stillwater Cemetery. Records might show if Ellen is buried with other family members.
http://www.greydc.govt.nz/council-services/cemeteries/
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Grey District Council (no cemeteries database online), have burial records for Stillwater Cemetery. Records might show if Ellen is buried with other family members.
http://www.greydc.govt.nz/council-services/cemeteries/
Hi again...
I've already looked at the NZSG cemetery fiche for Stillwater. It said something along the lines of "there were two fires and so there are hardly any surviving records for Stillwater. These numbers might relate to a cemetery plan which Grey Council might have..." and then it gave a list of surnames and numbers.
ALLEN - 579 was the only ALLEN/ALLAN record. It more than likely refers to the John ALLEN buried in the mass grave for the miners killed in the Brunner Mine explosion.
Having said that, no harm in sending off an email to Grey District council. Or better still the History House, although after the initial enquiry they charge for their services.
http://www.greydc.govt.nz/council-services/history-house
Regards
Beg
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:D From experience ..... try emailing the Grey District Council firstly !
[Though it may be that they eventually refer you to History House. ]
Again, from experience with seeking records from "that part of the woods", H/ House do not always bother replying to requests. [Shame really, they once had a good website and great service ... guess they lack the volunteers to service it ?] :-\
-
Thanks every for the extra information and going the extra mile. ;D
I do not think he will purchase the Australian certificate.
Am going to need week to sort these all out for him.
Still can not find George SEFFELL in the Kohimarama Boys School or the Industrial Schools.
Will try the NZSG for the information, seeing as they put on the disc.
Regards
kiwi-terrier
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death certificate information for Ellen Allen was undertaker.
Have put a separate request for Wellington Archives for George SEFFELL in the Industrial School Nominal Rolls
Hope this may give more details on his where abouts.
Next stop email Grey District Council regarding Stillwater Cemetery to see if any information is available.
Kiwi-terrier
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Hi again...
Are we down to mindlessly grasping at straws yet....
An Elizabeth Ellen MUNN aged 40 died in 1895.
BDM NZ Deaths 1895/763
The age is right, the first names are right and 50% of the surname is right :-)
Burial recorded in Hakaru, which is sixty-ish miles north of Auckland.
Can't find anything about her in the usual places but haven't really looked too hard.
One to file away for a wet weekend.
Regards
Beg
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Are we down to mindlessly grasping at straws yet....
Nope ... not I. :D
An Elizabeth Ellen MUNN aged 40 died in 1895.
Burial recorded in Hakaru, which is sixty-ish miles north of Auckland.
Can't find anything about her in the usual places
Appears to have been the wife of David Hogg MUNN - two births registered 1879 / 1882 -- mother: Elizabeth Ellen MUNN.
David Hogg MUNN, publican - bankrupted at Kamo, near Whangarei, 1883. [Hakaru located approx. halfway between Whangarei and Wellsford. ] DHM on e/rolls Marsden /Northland area -- later found in Hawkes Bay region.
-
Hi again KT...
Just wondered if it's worth requesting a newspaper look-up for the 7 Aug 1912 marriage of Eda Ellen LUND.
Might mention whether or not Elizabeth is still alive. Might mention brother's fostered surname.
Might not even be an announcement but no harm in checking.
Don't suppose the 1912 marriage certificate you mentioned in your original post says something like "Mother: Elizabeth (deceased)".
Regards
Beg
PS - 100th reply to your original question and none the wiser..... :-)
-
An Elizabeth Ellen MUNN aged 40 died in 1895.
Burial recorded in Hakaru, which is sixty-ish miles north of Auckland.
Can't find anything about her in the usual places
Appears to have been the wife of David Hogg MUNN - two births registered 1879 / 1882 -- mother: Elizabeth Ellen MUNN.
David Hogg MUNN, publican - bankrupted at Kamo, near Whangarei, 1883. [Hakaru located approx. halfway between Whangarei and Wellsford. ] DHM on e/rolls Marsden /Northland area -- later found in Hawkes Bay region.
Hello Lucy...
If I'd made the effort to read one of your earlier replies placing Ellen in court in 1901 (Mahuta - PapersPast) I wouldn't have wasted your time.
Apologies :-)
Regards
Beg
-
Hi again KT...
Maybe have a look at the probate for Orpheus SMITH d.1952 aged 68 years.
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=9378855
His birth year of 1885-ish is within a year or so of the birth of Orpheus FONG, according to PapersPast
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0h8e/
Maybe Orpheus SMITH mentions a twin sister Lily (Lillian Elizabeth LUND d.1966)
And maybe he askes for his ashes to be scattered at Waikumete near John LUND... or maybe not :-)
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
Will look into the Orpehus SMITH probate.
Nothing about deceased for the mother on the marriage certificate for Eda Ellen LUND.
I do appreciate all the hard work that has been done in looking at this family from the rootchatters. ;D
Kiwi-terrier
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Have a copy of Ellen ALLEN DC, can any one read the her mother's surname
Hope this comes out okay
kiwi-terrier
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It looks like Coutts to me
Cheers Janette
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The 2nd letter has a little tail in the beginning and doesn't look like the other "o" in Douglas. So could be an "a" or "u" .... but I could be wrong.
Cheers
KHP
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Well,Cautts then
Cheers Janette
-
Hello KT...
Does the above death certificate mention living children.
Hopefully four boys aged twenty to thirty-four.
Regards
Beg
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Hello KT...
Does the above death certificate mention living children.
Hopefully four boys aged twenty to thirty-four.
Regards
Beg
death cert for Ellen ALLEN died 1914 Grey River Hospital
aged 82 - old aged
Parents:
John Douglas & Eleanor
Husband(s) & children : unknown ::) ::)
buried Stillwater cemetery
Years in NZ: 36
kiwi-terrier
Now I'm really, really, confused Beg. :D
Where does the info about "four boys" come from ??
Cheers
~ Lu
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Hi K-t
This looks like Ellen ALLEN (Eleanor DOUGLAS) with her parents and siblings.
1841
Northumberland - Parish, St. Andrew, Blyth
Registration Dist, Tyne
Cranlington Terrace
DOUGLAS
- John - 55 - Coal Miner
- Elenor - 49
- James - 20
- Selby - 18
- David - 16
- Robert - 13
- Elenor - 10 [bc 1831]
- William - 7
- Robert* - 5
All born Northumberland.
[Relationship of 2nd Robert aged 5, to head of household, not given. Eleanor written as "Elenor" ]
~ Lu
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Mmm ... just not finding a marriage for John DOUGLAS (DOUGLASS) and Eleanor C** TTS ??
Looks like Eleanor b.c. 1792 (w/o John DOUGLAS - mother of Ellen ALLEN) has died by 1851.
John DOUGLAS is still around in 1851 (and visiting his son Robert) :
1851
Northumberland - East Chevington
Address: 97 Broomhill
DOUGLAS
- Robert - 22 - Coal Miner - born Northumberland, Lowick
- Dorothy - wife - 22
- Elenor - dau - 4 - born Scotland ??
- Edward - 1 - b. Northumberland, North Warkworth
- John DOUGLAS - visitor - widower - 67 - Coal miner - born, Northumberland, North Warkworth (bc 1784)
//
at 93 Broomhill ... (another son of John/Elenor )
DOUGLAS
- Selby - 27 - coal miner - b. Durham, Tweedmouth
- Elizabeth - 22 - wife / children -- Elizabeth 3 / Selby 1
-------------------------------------------------------------
Warkworth, Northumberland, birthplace of John DOUGLAS,
might be helpful when looking for marriage ??
~ Lu
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At Anc**try, a tree (STEVENS tree) which includes some info for Selby DOUGLAS (alas, though, no maiden name for his mother).
A message has also been posted (to tree owner) in October 2009, from someone else following this family (and also seeking to find mother's maiden name.)
~ Lu
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:D ... I think I said it earlier ... but someone in or near to Taylorville, Westland, seems to have known Ellen ALLEN very well.
(a) Somebody had gone to the effort (and expense) of having a funeral notice published for Ellen
and (b), the level of detail provided for her death certificate (particularly both parents names ... and mother's maiden name) seems more likely to have been supplied by a relative ?
Mmm ... I wonder if any of Ellen's ( DOUGLAS ) brothers came to NZ ?
~ Lu
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Now I'm really, really, confused Beg. :D
Where does the info about "four boys" come from ??
Hello Lucy...
The four boys are just guesswork. But as Eleanor would have been in her fifties and sixties having them, I suspect incorrect guesswork.
The 1911 Grey, West Coast electoral roll is Eleanor's final mention on an electoral roll. I just matched the other Taylorville ALLANs listed on the roll (of which there were four boys) to BDM NZ births with a mother named Eleanor and a father called John (assuming the John and Eleanor ALLAN arriving on the Waitangi in 1876 are our couple). Came up with some possibles but at the same time there was an Ellen ALLEN, wife of John, living in Dunedin. So I think she is a more likely candidate as mother.
Wouldn't directly help with the search for Elizabeth Ellen LUND but it would be nice to know if the two daughters who came on the Waitangi were listed as living issue for Eleanor. And if the John ALLAN of Taylorville who died in a fire was the husband of Eleanor.
Grey River Argus, 13 December 1898
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ie2/
Mmm ... just not finding a marriage for John DOUGLAS (DOUGLASS) and Eleanor C** TTS ??
The only John DOUGLAS to Eleanor C? marriage in Northumberland that I can find is 1808 DOUGLAS to COOPER.
http://joinermarriageindex.co.uk/marriage-records/search
At Anc**try, a tree (STEVENS tree) which includes some info for Selby DOUGLAS (alas, though, no maiden name for his mother).
For some reason I also have Selby DOUGLAS in my LUND folder. Not sure why :-)
Regards
Beg
-
Hi again...
If you're interested the four possible half-brothers to Elizabeth Ellen LUND that I had my eye on were:
1911 Grey, West Coast electoral roll
Charles ALLAN - Residence: Taylorville - Occupation: Miner
George ALLAN - Residence: Taylorville - Occupation: Miner
Hugh ALLAN - Residence: Taylorville - Occupation: Miner
John ALLAN - Residence: Taylorville - Occupation: Miner
-----------------------------------
Possible BDM Birth...
1880/6083 - ALLEN, Charles - mother: Elina father: John
Possibly matched with BDM Death...
1924/7613 - ALLAN, Charles - 45Y (so born c.1879)
Buried at Papakura Cemetery. Don't think it's online.
An Alice Mary Maude ALLAN, also mentioned on the 1911 Grey electoral roll, is listed at the same cemetery.
1942/16936 - ALLAN, Alice Mary Maude - 60Y
Charles ALLAN has the same Burial Record reference number as Mary Maude ALLAN, aged 60. So Mary Maude ALLAN, aged 60 is most likely Alice Mary Maude ALLAN, aged 60.
It's interesting that Charles ends up in Auckland. Maybe he was in contact with his half-sister.
-------------------------------------
Same Burial Record reference number for a George ALLAN (c.1881-1957) and a Lily ALLAN d.1972 aged 86 at Karoro Cemetery in Greymouth. A Lily is mentioned on the 1911 Grey electoral roll as married and living in Taylorville. Possibly married to George?
BDM Marriages 1905/4961 - George ALLAN to Lilly HODSON
-------------------------------------
Same Burial Record reference number for a John ALLAN (c.1887-1956) and a Rose ALLAN d.1967 aged 75 at Karoro Cemetery in Greymouth.
BDM Marriages 1915/11210 - John ALLAN to Rose May GRIFFITHS
Possible probate for John
ALLAN John, Taylorville, Farmer, 1956
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=8757959
Possible probate for Rose
ALLAN Rose May, Greymouth, Widow, 1967
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=8759999
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Can't find any obvious mentions of a Hugh ALLAN.
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As I said earlier, the birth years of 1879, 1881 and 1887 would take Eleanor into her late fifties so maybe a non-starter. Maybe not :-)
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
Looks like a job for the Xmas holidays ;D
Trying to sort out all the bits & pieces.
kiwi-terrier
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SMITH Orpheus ( Thanks Beg)
Probate only gave wife and two children BUT his marriage certificate gave his parents as Henry Smith ( Labourer) and Ellen SMITH nee DOUGLAS.
Can not find a marriage for these pair on BDM (What's new)
A Ellen SMITH died 1923 and buried Purewa ( age about right)
A Henry SMITH died 1926 and buried Purewa but not in the same grave.
Will follow next year with a look at 1926 Probate for H SMITH and chase a certificate from the NZSG for E SMITH.
Kiwi-terrier
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SMITH Orpheus ( Thanks Beg)
Probate only gave wife and two children BUT his marriage certificate gave his parents as Henry Smith ( Labourer) and Ellen SMITH nee DOUGLAS.
Yes, Orpheus SMITH, indeed a good find by Beg. ;)
That the marriage certificate though names his mother as Ellen, nee DOUGLAS, surely screams out that this Orpheus is most likely to be the child formerly known as Orpheus FONG (or LUND ?).
[And SMITH seems to be a surname one might adopt if changing or hiding one's original identity. ??]
:-\
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An Ellen SMITH died 1923 and buried Purewa (age about right)
Hello KT...
Possibly not Elizabeth Ellen DOUGLAS/SEFFELL/FONG/YOUNG/LUND
Purewa Cemetery fiche B03:32
Reference D/11/85
Name: Ellen SMITH
Age: 72
Residence: 3 Bradford Street, Parnell
Birthplace: Wolverhampton, England
Occupation: Widow
Funeral Director: Sibuns
Next-of-kin: Mr LOVATT, Tyne Street, Ohakune
Memorial Inscription reads...
ILMO George SMITH died 1 Jan 1895 aged 64 years
Also Hugh McLIVER d.19 Aug 1903 aged 54 years
Also Ellen, wife of the above George who died at Auckland 16 Sep 1923 aged 72 years
PapersPast snippets:
Death of George SMITH (http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=TS18950102.2.21&srpos=1&e=--1895---1895--10--1-byDA---2george+smith--)
Inquest for George SMITH (http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=TS18950103.2.24&srpos=6&e=--1895---1895--10--1-byDA---2george+smith--)
Marriage of McLIVER to SMITH (http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=AS18990413.2.105&srpos=2&e=-------100-AS-1-byDA---0mcliver+%22george+smith%22--)
Will follow next year with a look at 1926 Probate for H SMITH
Do you mean the 1926 probate for "SMITH, Henry - Thames - Labourer". If so, it more than likely relates to the Henry SMITH d. 6 Mar 1926 buried in Shortland Cemetery, Thames. He is buried with Emma SMITH, d. 20 Jan 1947 aged 87. Cemetery website says she was a "Native of Auckland"
Regards
Beg
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And SMITH seems to be a surname one might adopt if changing or hiding one's original identity
Hello Lucy,
So are you implying that "Henry SMITH, Labourer" is just a made-up person for the marriage certificate. Will be a nuisance if that's the case.
Might be worth requesting a look-up for Orpheus's ITM. No obvious reason to if KT has the marriage certificate but no harm in asking.
Maybe request a marriage notice look-up for Orpheus in the Auckland Star.
Might be just as easy tracing the two children mentioned in the probate and asking them if they know any family stories (or more realistically tracing the children of the the children mentioned).
All the best
Beg
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The son of Orpheus has passed on and the sister was a spinster at the time of her father's death.
Will rule out the SMITHS the died 1923 /1926.
Wonder who the mystery Mr SMITH is ??
Can see I will have a busy holiday going through all the information that has been found.
Thanks Janette & KHP for the translation of the name.
One thing with Elizabeth Ellen she kept her maiden name all the way through with the forms.
Once again many thanks for your help
Regards
Kiwi-terrier
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Might be just as easy tracing the two children mentioned in the probate and asking them if they know any family stories
The son of Orpheus has passed on and the sister was a spinster at the time of her father's death.
Hello KT...
Was at the library today so I had a look through the electoral rolls on ancestry.
I think Orpheus and Annie SMITH had five children. But not one of those children gave them any grand-children....or at least none that I could find by playing "match the names to the address" with the electoral rolls.
When you next visit Auckland Archives you may want to look at the following probates and see if any children/nephews/nieces get a mention.
SMITH, Edna Maria - Auckland - Spinster 1973
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=13077573
SMITH, Martin Vispin - 1987
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=276879
ROBINSON Andrew Vernon - Auckland - Plasterer - 1976 (husband of Ruby May)
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=13109211
And here's a divorce file. Don't think Victor re-married.
The file won't be accessible for another six years.
Will definitely be a nuisance if we haven't found Elizabeth Ellen by then :-)
SMITH, Ngaire Frances v SMITH, Victor Albert 1957 - 1958
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=22649617
Here are the BDM NZ deaths for the eldest son and his wife. May be worth a NZ Herald death notice look-up.
1999/20416 and 1976/35225, buried at Onetangi, Waiheke Island
http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/dbtw-wpd/cemeteries/cemetery.html
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
Thanks for looking up the family.
I did get a death notice for Leslie James Smith.
Mentions the names that you have (brothers / sister), no grandchildren mentioned but says uncle of nieces and nephews.
Have put the probates in my bag and will visit the Archives next year and have a good look.
Leslie brother Victor died before 1999.
Regards
kiwi-terrier
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no grandchildren mentioned but says uncle of nieces and nephews.
Hi KT...
My money is on him being an uncle by marriage.
Wrong again :-)
....see post #127
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I think Ruby May is buried in Rotorua d.26 July 2001 Have just sent off an email asking for a death notice from Rotorua Library.
Interestingly (or not) there is an Ellen Elizabeth SMITH d.1923 buried at Rotorua as well. Year of birth is 1848 but that's reasonably close to 1854.... or not :-)
Will email the Rotorua sexton to see if there are any others burials in the same plot.
Regards
Beg
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ROBINSON Andrew Vernon - Auckland - Plasterer - 1976 (husband of Ruby May)
Hi again...
May be wrong with Andrew Vernon ROBINSON being the husand as the death notice for Ruby May ROBINSON says "Loved wife of the late Tom", but maybe she re-married post-1976.
However the notice also says "loved sister of the late Edna, Les, Marty and Vic" so I'm fairly sure she is the daughter of Orpheus and Annie and (hopefully) a grand-daughter of Elizabeth Ellen.
Also mentions two other sisters, still alive in 2001.
Also mentions a niece that White Pages and Google list as currently living in Rotorua.
If you've an interest in contacting the niece or the niece's daughter (also listed in Rotorua) let me know and I'll make sure of my facts by checking the 2011 electoral rolls then PM you the info.
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
Thanks for the extra information, will ask my friend if he is interested in getting in touch with the Rotorua lot.
Regards
kiwi-terrier
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Also mentions two other sisters, still alive in 2001.
Hi again...
Both sisters passed away within a few weeks of each other in 2009.
But both of their death notices mention children.
Perhaps these children know where their g-grandfather Henry SMITH is buried. Perhaps his wife Ellen is buried next to him. Would be handy.
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
Would you have the surnames of the two sisters that died in 2009,
as I only have the 1st names.
kiwi-terrier
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Hi KT...
Sent off the death notices to your kiwi-terrier ihug email address. Hope it's still current.
Let me know if there's a problem with the zip file.
EDIT:
Sorry. Forgot to mention source for Ruby May ROBINSON
Rotorua Daily Post
Page 37
Saturday 28 July 2001
Regards
Beg
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Would you have the surnames of the two sisters that died in 2009,
And for future reference...
BDM NZ Deaths (https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Search/Search.aspx?Path=%2FqueryEntry.m%3Ftype%3Ddeaths)
2009/19958
2009/18284
Beg
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Hi Beg
Thanks for the extra information.
The 1st one was the one I was missing (BDM), managed to find the 2nd one by putting the maiden name in BDM and you have confirmed it for me.
Burials
Waiheke Island has 1 of them on the data base
Waikumete has 3 of them on the data base
Rotorua has 2 of them of the data base and maybe the elusive mother Ellen / Elizabeth
Only one to find is Victor Albert, no idea when died or buried, just before 1999.
Will go through the rest of the information tomorrow
Kiwi-terrier
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Rotorua has 2 of them of the data base and maybe the elusive mother Ellen / Elizabeth
Hi KT...
An infant SMITH is buried in the plot adjacent to Ellen Elizabeth SMITH at Rotorua. Possibly a grandchild?
Jean SMITH - 18 months d.o.d 18 Aug 1923
BDM NZ - 1923/10573 SMITH, Jean Kelsey 18M
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Only one to find is Victor Albert, no idea when died or buried, just before 1999.
If you haven't already, I think I've managed to eliminate the three Victor no-middle-name SMITH's on BDM NZ deaths. Definitely the last two and most likely the first one.
1989/50094 - SMITH, Victor - b.1916 in Chch d.1989 in Chch
1994/34713 - SMITH, Victor - buried in Hastings, headstone gives different army serial number to Victor
1998/20070 - SMITH, Victor - b.1923 so too young for 1938 electoral roll
You could always try for Victor's WW2 service record. It may note his death, although the NZDF usually want proof of death before sending it out. But it's pretty easy using electoral rolls to link Victor's WW2 Nominal roll listing to the 1999 death notice for Leslie James SMITH, which you said mentions his brother Victor as deceased. Would be interesting to see if the NZDF accept that as proof.
Regards
Beg
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Just received the death certificate for the Ellen Elizabeth SMITH that died 1923 aged 75 and buried Rotorua.
According to information on years in NZ , 70, can not be her
Husband is a William SMITH and was alive at time of death.
Her fathers name William AUCHRAN, mother's unknown
Children: M: 48, 38, 27
F: 56,54,52,50,46,30
Undertaker is the informant
Kiwi-terrier :( :(
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Hi KT...
That is disappointing but fair play to your friend for putting his money where someone else's mouth is.
Is there any interest in contacting descendants of Orpheus SMITH or is that a non-starter. Understandable if it is cos it's one thing to sit in front of a computer digging up names but quite another to actually come face to face with one of the names, especially when they realize that a complete stranger has been poking around in their family.
Regards
Beg
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Have checked the probates for any extra information. Nothing, no mention of Elizabeth / Ellen ( with the many names)
Edna Maria SMITH left every thing to her brother Martin
Andrew Vernon ROBINSON left every thing to Ruby - no children
Victor Albert SISSONS estate was a Administration Estate, he left no wife or children.
Martin Vispin SMITH mentions his brother & sister Albert Victor & Emsa Larein SISSON - no wife or children mentioned.
Victor Albert was still alive in 1987
No sure if my friend will get in touch with any descendants at present. He takes his time with things like this.
Kiwi-terrier
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My friend and I wish to thank every one for there helpful in trying to find Ellen / Elizabeth LUND [plus her many names] resting place.
Plus the extra children that she had and the name changes.
I will close this thread and when Ellen / Elizabeth is eventally found will let every one know.
Regards
kiwi-terrier
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I have information on this individual. Her parents were John Douglas and Eleanor Coutts. Mother was born in 7 April 1791, Harliow, Newton, Midlothianshire, Scotland. Married 1811 West Linton, Peebleshire, Scotland. John Douglas born 1784, Warkworth, Northumberland. If this is who you are looking for please contact me. Ellen would of been my 2nd Great Grand Aunt. I have been searching for her for seems like forever. I can't believe I might have a brick wall torn down.
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Hi K-t
This looks like Ellen ALLEN (Eleanor DOUGLAS) with her parents and siblings.
1841
Northumberland - Parish, St. Andrew, Blyth
Registration Dist, Tyne
Cranlington Terrace
DOUGLAS
- John - 55 - Coal Miner
- Elenor - 49
- James - 20
- Selby - 18
- David - 16
- Robert - 13
- Elenor - 10 [bc 1831]
- William - 7
- Robert* - 5
All born Northumberland.
[Relationship of 2nd Robert aged 5, to head of household, not given. Eleanor written as "Elenor" ]
~ Lu
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Hi Cathie
Great to hear you have had a breakthrough ;D
Did the family come to New Zealand?
Or do you want this on a Scottish/English board
bye
althea
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Please refer also to other thread (in completed section) >>
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,560757.0.html
LUND - Ellen
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Hi, thank you for your replies. This is in reference to:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,560757.0.html
I am probably going about answering in the wrong order. Yes I wanted it to appear in New Zealand. I was trying to shed light on the Ellen Lund/Kiwi Terrier Completed conversations concerning Eleanor Allen/Allan nee Douglas. By now maybe they have already figured the information out. Sorry for any confusion, just trying to help.
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Hi Cathie377,
Somehow I failed to see that you were responding to Kiwi Terrier's topic on the Lund family and the penny has just dropped. ::) :)
I'll merge this topic with hers so your information will be added at the end.
Thanks for taking the time to help another researcher. ;D
Best wishes,
Spades
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Hello 👋
My partners father is the son of Victor Alfred Smith who was raised by Ruby .
Victor and ruby are the children of Orpheus smith .
We would love any information you have on any family members
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SMITH Orpheus ( Thanks Beg)
Probate only gave wife and two children BUT his marriage certificate gave his parents as Henry Smith ( Labourer) and Ellen SMITH nee DOUGLAS.
Can not find a marriage for these pair on BDM (What's new)
A Ellen SMITH died 1923 and buried Purewa ( age about right)
A Henry SMITH died 1926 and buried Purewa but not in the same grave.
Will follow next year with a look at 1926 Probate for H SMITH and chase a certificate from the NZSG for E SMITH.
Kiwi-terrier
Hello kiwi terrier
I'm new to this so unsure if I'm repling right .
My partners father is the grandson of Orpheus smith . His father was Victor Smith and was raised by Ruby Smith.
We would love to have any information possible as we can't find anymore past the marriage certificate of Orpheus and Annie smith where Orpheus parents are listed as Henry and Ellen Smith nee douglas