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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: djpegg on Friday 14 October 11 22:39 BST (UK)
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I have encountered a problem, or maybe a mystery. I have copies of the birth certificate of Mary Ann Jeans who has born in 1840 in Steede Claydon in Bucks. Her father is listed as George Jeans and her mother is Mary Ann Hutchings. I have found a reference to a marriage between George and mary Ann in 1837 in Marylebone, Middlesex. The strange thing here is that the father's name (doesn't say whether it is the bride's father or the grooms) listed as Richard Maybank. I found a reference to Richard Maybank as being born in Marylebone in 1791. On the 1841 census he is listed among many people with different surnames. An orphanage? Mary Ann Hutchings isn't on the list because she married 4 years before. Her name is listed as Hutchings on the birth certificate and Hutchins on the marriage record. Their daughter, Mary Ann Jeans, was born in 1840 in Bucks, although her parents wedding was in London. I'm not sure what has happened. I also can't find a reference to the birth/baptism of either George Jeans or Mary Ann Hutchin(g)s. I do see a Gorge Jeans from Staffordshire and another from Dorset. Any help, comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. regards David
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I must admit to being a bit confused by a couple of points. ;)
Are you saying that you have the marriage certificate for George Jeans and Many Ann Hutchings in 1837, and one of them has said their father is Richard Maybank? :-\
Have you checked the censuses for Mary Ann Jeans and her parents to see what they tell you about places of birth, if you think that it's odd that her parents married in London yet she was born in Bucks? This might help you clear up places of birth of all three.
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Thanks for the reply, Ruskie. i do not have a copy of the1837 marriage certificate,> My source is London Marriages and Banns , 1754-1921 (via Ancestry.com). By the way, Mary Ann Hutchins is listed as a minor and the occupation of Richard Maybank is listed as a clerk. The birthplace ofthedaughter, Mary Ann Jeans, is listed as Steede Claydon, Bucks on her birth certificate.So far, I haven't managed to find the birth places o her parent using the census records. David
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The 1837 marriage record is the actual Marriage Certificate, not the Banns. It's only just after the start of Civil reg. Perhaps the minister was somewhat confused as to what he should have been doing! Instead of naming the father of the respective pair, he has written in the person/guardian (Maybanks) who permitted the marriage of a minor - which is what the minister would have done on a parish record prior to civil reg.
MARRIAGE Certificate - Solemnized in Christ Church in the Parish of St Marylebone on 17 Jul 1837 St Marylebone, after Banns:
George JEANS, full age, Bachelor, of 34 Blackburn Mews
Mary Ann HUTCHINS, minor, Spinster, of 8 King Street
Occupation : Servant has been written in the middle of them both
Father's Name: Richard MAYBANK, clerk, has been written in the middle of them both.
Rich'd MAYBANK is also one of the witness'.
Other witness: S E BLABY
Bride & Groom both signed their own names, Mary Ann more legibly than George.
The banns themselves, are also on record - but don't give anything away aside form their names & marital status. The last call was the day before the actual marriage.
1841: Not a large institution - it appears to me that the enumerator has simply omitted to follow the instuction to a) place a // after each seperate dwelling/household and b) place a / after each seperate group within that household where the / marks the (probable) family unit (parents & children) then / relatives / visitors/ lodgers/ servants etc..
Instead, the enumerator has written Do. (ditto) to cover two jobs, 1) to mark the start of each household and 2) to say it's on the same street as the previous household(s). You have to go a few pages back to see the Do. in this case is (apparently) indicating "Stafford Steet". Image attached, red marks mine are a guess as to how it may have looked at least in part, if done proper :)
Richard MAYBANK's 1841 household appears to be:
Stafford Street (written a few pages back), St Marylebone
Do.
Rich'd MAYBANK, 50, Clerk, - N
Catherine MAYBANK 45 - N
Rich'd MAYBANK 20, Butcher - Y
John MAYBANK 15 - Y
Mary ------MAN 70, - N
Harriot ------MAN 30, - N
Samuel HUTCHING?? 30, Harness?? Maker?, b Scotland
Sarah BLABY 20 - Y
Sarah HITCH 60, Ind - N
Ann BISHOP 60 - Y
Do.
The image is not too good (a scan of it would possibly be more clear, as opposed to a photocopy - you could try asking the source of the image if they can produce a scan).
The Samuel fellow looks mightily interesting - and remember, ages were supposed to be rounded in 1841 and look as if they have been here - he could be as old as 34. He might be an older brother of Mary Ann HUTCHING? Too young to be a father, perhaps?
And Sarah BLABY in 1841 could be as old as 24, and is perhaps likely to be the 2nd marriage witness in 1837.
I would also hazard a little guess that Mary ----MAN and Harriot ----MAN could be mother & sister of Richard's wife.
Cheers
AMBLY
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On 24 March 1845, in Christ Church, Marylebone
Sarah Elizabeth BLABY, spinster, married a Thomas STEVENS.
She was of full age and lived at 16 Stafford Street.
Her father was a John BLABY, Beadle.
The witness' were Richard BLABY and Mary BLABY
Was hoping for a JEANS witness (or that she married a HUTCHINS ::) but never to mind - she's clearly the witness on the JEANS/HUTCHINS marriage and the same lass in the 1841 Census.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi David
The daughter Mary Ann JEANS b 1840
Can you tell us, who did she marry & when and where? Do you have her on any Census (pre- or post- marriage).
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,553871.0.html
Married Francis FORRESTER in 1862, St Pancras
Spinster, full age, of Bedborough St (same as groom)
Father : George JEANS, Cabman
1871: In St Pancras, Age 30, b Buckinghamshire
RG10 / Piece: 223 / Folio: 42 / Page: 42
1881: In Islington, Age 40, b Buckinghamshire
RG11 / Piece: 236 / Folio: 21 / Page: 38
Cheers
AMBLY
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This family look interesting ?
CENSUS 1881: 19 King Street, Lambeth (a few separate families at this add)
RG11 / Piece: 585 / Folio: 37 / Page: 17
Head: George JEANS 72, no employment, b Dorsetshire
Wife: Mary Ann JEANS 61, b City Road, Mdx
Dau: Lydia JEANS 17, unm, b Sheffield St, London Mdx (abt 1864)
MARRIAGE 1888: In parish Church of St Mary Lambeth, Surrey, on 9 Sep 1888
William Charles PARTLETON 22, Bachelor, Compositor, of 34 Catherine St, father: Charles PARTLETON, Leather dresser
Lydia JEANS 22, Spinster, of 22 King Street, Father: George JEANS, Coachman (dec)
Witness: William G. P?---------? And Fanny PAGE.
Trying to spot them in 1871
Cheers
Ambly
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CENSUS 1871: 22 Water Street, St Clement Danes, Strand, London
RG10/ Piece: 365/ Folio: 30/ Page: 23
Head: George JEANES 54, Carman, b St Giles Dorsetshire
Wife: Mary Ann JEANES 50, b Middlesex London
Son: Charles JEANES 19, unm, Coal Boy, b St Pancras
Son: Frederick JEANES 10, b St Clements
Dau: Lydia JEANES 6, b St Clements
Cheers
AMBLY
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CENSUS 1861: Spies Court (off White Hart St?), St Paul, Covent Garden, Westminster
RG9 / Piece: 177 / Folio: 73 / Page: 2
Head: George JEANES 51, Stableman, b St Giles Dorsetshire
Wife: Mary Ann JEANES 40, b City Road, Middlesex
Son: George 23, unm, Stableman
Dau: Louisa 20,
Dau: Sarah 17,
Son: James 14, Errand Boy
Son: Charles 10,
Dau: Elizabeth 7,
Son; Frederick 11,
All issue born City Road
CENSUS 1851: 1 Streets Building, St George Hanover Sq, Westminster
HO107; /Piece: 1476 / Folio: 259 / Page: 23
Head: George JEANES 40, Labourer, b St Giles Dorsetshire
Wife: Mary A JEANES 30, Charwoman, b Shoreditch, Mdx
Son: George JEANES 12, Errand Boy, b St Georges Mdx
Dau: Mary Ann JEANES 11, Scholar, b Birch, Gloster
Dau: Louisa JEANES 10, Scholar, b St Georges Mdx
Dau: Sarah JEANES 7, Scholar, b St Georges Mdx
Son; James JEANES 4, At Home, b St Georges Mdx
Dau: Lavinia JEANES 2, At Home, b St Georges Mdx
Was ticking along nicely - till we get to daughter Mary Ann's birthplace ???
The daughter Louisa:
BIRTH: Louisa JEANES, Jun Qtr 1841, Westminster
Right smack on Census time ....maybe explains why I can't find them in the 1841?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Thanks all for spending time on this difficult problem. I am now beginning to think that there were more than one Mary Ann Jeans married to a George Jeans. For example, in the 1891 census, there is Mary A Edgar (Mary A Jeans) in a household in Staffordshire and a 78 yr old man called George Jeans is in the same household. There is also a Dorset family with a George Jeans and Mary Ann. The only hard facts are that a george Jeans must have married a Mary Ann Hutchings because they are together on their daughter, Mary Ann Jeans, birth certificate in 1840. The daughter was born in Bucks. George was also listed as the father on the certificate of the marriage between the daughter and Francis Forester in 1862 in St Pancras. The marriage between George jeans and Mary Ann Hutchins in 1837 in Marylebone seems like it is the right one, at least from the point of view of time and place. Still wonder why the mother went to Bucks for the birth 4 years later. It is easy to trace Mary Ann, the daughter, after the marriage. She was, as Mary Ann Forester, on all the censuses. Still don't know what happened to the parents or even where they were born. There was no hint on the 1837 marriage record (if it is theirs) since parents weren't listed, only the guardian. Maybe the parents had died. In Bucks? Once again thanks ambly and ruskie. David
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Amazing work Ambly! :)
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Hi Thank you Ruskie ;D
My money's on that being the right family - everything fits, down to that family having all their children in London areas bar one, Mary - who like David's Mary (or at least the one he has the birth cert for) , is the right age, has the right father's name & occupation and is born in a seemingly 'odd' place.... Even the King Street connection...
Birch Gloster
Is there such a place, I wonder? I wonder if the enumerator has written down what he thought was written on the Household Schedule, or what he though was said to him - and it is wrong.
Buckinghamshire = Birch Gloster ???
If we could just find one little thing that links David's Mary to the family Lydia JEANES sprung from ..birth ms, marriage witness, address at marriage, death address or informant etc etc etc.
I'd say it was worth getting Lydia's (or one of hir siblings') birth cert, to see what her mother ms was.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Mary Ann Jean/es on 1851 census b Birch Gloster
B/C= Mary Ann Jeans b 1840 Steede Claydon Bucks
Looking at Ambly's evidence, they certainly appear to be one and the same.
Doubt has arisen solely due to different places of birth?
I tend to agree with Ambly that there was a mix up on the 1851 and the enumerator misheard Buckinghamshire as Birch Gloster - I can see how this may have happened if he was hard of hearing or the Jeanes mumbled Mary Ann's pob or he scrawled theplace name.
David, what place of birth does Mary Ann give in later censuses?
Also have you tried tracing any other girls by the name of Mary Ann Jeane/s born around the same time? (process of elimination ;))
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CENSUS 1851: 1 Streets Building, St George Hanover Sq, Westminster
HO107; /Piece: 1476 / Folio: 259 / Page: 23
Head: George JEANES 40, Labourer, b St Giles Dorsetshire
Wife: Mary A JEANES 30, Charwoman, b Shoreditch, Mdx
Son: George JEANES 12, Errand Boy, b St Georges Mdx
Dau: Mary Ann JEANES 11, Scholar, b Birch, Gloster
Dau: Louisa JEANES 10, Scholar, b St Georges Mdx
Dau: Sarah JEANES 7, Scholar, b St Georges Mdx
Son; James JEANES 4, At Home, b St Georges Mdx
Dau: Lavinia JEANES 2, At Home, b St Georges Mdx
Cheers
AMBLY
Writing on image isn't too good. George's surname is mistranscribed as "Franes" due to the first letter being scribbled over. I looked at the place of birth for Mary Ann - might it be Gloster Buck? (Though the Gloster may be something else ;)). Mary Ann's 'Rank, Profession or Occupation' is given as "Shollar" - which I see as evidence of 'incompetance' or a rushed job by the enumerator. :)
Added: David, was Mary Ann born in Steede Claydon or Steeple Claydon?
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Thanks Ambly. The birth certificate says place of birth is Steede Claydon but under the listing of residence it has Mary Ann Jeans of Steeple Claydon. The mother's name is also listed elsewhere as Mary Ann Jeans, formerly Hutchings. Steeple Claydon seems to be between Buckingham and Aylesbury. By the way, what do you make of the 1891 census listing for Mary A Edgar (Mary A Jeans) who is 47. It states this Mary Ann was born in Wombourne, Staffordshire. Also listed is George Jeans at 78 yrs? Who is this? This would put their birth dates at roughly 1844 and 1813, respectively. And then there is the Dorset family. David
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Did Mary Ann Jeans marry Joseph Edgar?
If you look at the relationships on that 1891 census entry, George Jeans is father in law, so father of Mary Ann Edgar. You will also see some step children with the surname of Williams. Did Mary Ann have an earlier marriage to Mr Williams?
I have no explanation about their birth places - if it's the correct family, perhaps the enumerator simply dittoed the place of birth? :-\
I don't have much time now, but I'll try to do a bit more digging later.
I have just remembered Ambly's find of Mary Ann Jeans Marrying a Forester in 1862 ... perhaps the above 1891 census is a red herring. I would need to investigate further.
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I see in 1861 Mary Ann Jeans is a servt, unmar, aged 21, born Middle Clayton Bucks, living in London.
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Thanks again, Ruskie and Ambly. I think one added element of confusion is that the mother and daughter have the same forename. There is no problem in the case of the daughter, Mary Ann Jeans. She was born on 5 Nov, 1839 in Steeple Claydon, Bucks. The certificate shows her father, George, was a carman. She then appears on the 1861 as a servant in London. In 1862 she married Francis Forester and appeared on the later censuses as Mary Ann Forrester. The problem is finding out more about the father, George jeans, and the mother Mary Ann Jeans (nee Hutchings). Probably the most reliable piece of information about them is the London Marriage and banns, 1754-1921 record. The marriage took place in Marylebone in 1837. It doesn't give the ages of George and Mary Ann but does mention she is a minor. The parents aren't present. If we assume they were roughly 21 and 17, respectively, there birth dates would be c1816 (William) and c1820(Mary Ann). After this it gets very fuzzy, as you both know. The combination of George and Mary Ann keep popping up in different places on the censuses. The ages are about right but the birth places vary (possible errors by enumerator?). Maybe george was born in Dorset and Mary Ann Hutchin(g)s in Staffordshire? Any further thoughts would be greatly appreciated. David
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Just found something interesting. I found a mary Ann jeans in the 1841 census. This must be the mother, nee Hutchins.She was born in Middlesex.She was 20. Her marriage to George Jeans in 1837. She was a minor, now we know about 16-17 years old. The residence is again in central London so i suppose she is still a servant. One the census are Elizabeth Jeans , 55, who could be her mother-in-law and Frederick Jeans, 3, who is probably her eldest child. Neither George or Mary Ann were on the census at this address, I found a baptism o Frederick for 1838 in St martin-in-the-Fields with parents; Mary jeans and Ann jeans. Mistake? Where was George? Dead? I also found a baptism for Mary Ann Hutchins on 21 may, 1820 at Srt george in the East/ Tower Hamlets, wherever that is? Her parents were listed as Charles and Elizabeth Hutchin. The 1841 census info on george Jeans only showed Dorset and thare was no Mary Ann in the family. Looking better? Now we have to find out what happened to george Jeans and wherre was Mary Ann, the daughter, in 1841? Maybe back in Bucks with her maternal grandmother? David
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Hi David
The 1838 Pallots Baptism appears to be that of an illigitimate child. And not well transcibed in the source you got it from. The card says:
JEANS, Frederick Chas Polhill
Mary Ann
(______)
ie: Mary Ann is the mother.
(_____) is the unamed father.
Therefore, the mother is indicated as JEANS, like the child, and further inference that she was unmarried.
There is also a note on the card, looks like it could be in the same hand as the main entry "see over". Unfortunate the "over" has not been included in the source's scans.
This child's birth reg. is on FreeBMD too, as Frederick Charles Pohilo JEANS.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Ambly. This is what I suspected. Mary Ann's maiden name was Hutchins. I don't understand why she used Jeans. I suspect someone in the household where she was a servant might be the father. If he was "high up" in the house, he may have gotten George Jeans, a fellow worker to marry Mary Ann and use his surname. Stranger things have happened to young servant girls. She was under 18 at the wedding in 1837 so she was only a teen when she became pregnant with Frederick. I suspect Richard Maybank. The marriage of convenience to George Jeans may explain why we lose track of him. Maybe they didn't stay together very long. May Ann was born in 1839, just after Frederick. The surname of Jeans was used again. Maybe this one was his child. But why was the birth in Bucks and not London? It looks like a regular soap opera.
By the way, do you know where in London is the parish of St George in the East in the borough of Tower Hamlets. This is where Mary Ann Hutchins was baptised in 1820.
I still wonder what happened to ole George. And who is the Elizabeth Jeans on the 1841 census? She was 55 at the time. She couldn't be the mother but could be the mother-in-law. Should note, however, Mary Ann Hutchin's mother was called Elizabeth.
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Are you sure that the Jeans family with son Frederick aren't the wrong family, and this Mary Ann Jeans is the unmarried daughter of the head of household, Elizabeth aged 55.
Are "your" Jeans family is still at large on the 1841 census? Are you missing the family in any other censuses, and if so which ones? There appear to be a couple of Jeans families through the censuses, both with similar names, and there is some confusion about which family is which. Have you written these all down to try to clarify? (that's how I usually try to sort out these confusing families ;))
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/StGeorgeInTheEast/index.html
(with links to maps)
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I suppose you are right Ruskie but these overlapping families makes it very hard. Maybe i should investigate the birth in Bucks a little more. David
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Ambly and Ruskie. I looked at the 1851 census in more detail and it showed that mary Ann Jeans was born in Gloster, Bucks. This was pointed out to me by a lady on the Bucks forum site. I think this is the clue. The family on this 1851 census seem to be the ones. George was born c1811 in Dorset, mary Ann Hutchings was born c1820 in Shoreditch, Middlesex. Mary Ann Jeans, the daughter, appeared on the 1851 census with her family. By 1861 she had left home and can be found working as a servant in London. In 1862 she married Francis Forester. Now I would like to find the parents of george and mary Ann Hutchings. I think the problems arose because of the different spellings of the jeans name. It was Franes in 1851 and Jeanes in 1861. Those enumerators sure wanted to keep you busy. I'd like to thank you both for sorting this thing out. David
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That was me
But i see Ruskie had already pointed that out in reply #13 on this thread as a possibility.
Dont take my word for it, I was only trying to make out the appalling writing and grammar (as pointed out by Ruskie on here)
We seem to have gone over the same ground on both threads, which is never a good idea as it does rather waste time and effort. It is not usually a good idea to start a second thread about a topic.
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But i see Ruskie had already pointed that out in reply #13 on this thread as a possibility.
And me ;D, Reply#11 - I knew there was something I forgot (I meant to put up a snip image of the place name as enumerated). Thanks Liz, I didn't realise a new topic was started! Is there such or similar a placename as Gloster in Bucks? Just asking. All the other people were enumerated County-Town - that's why I considers MaryA's enumeration might be written County (Gloster) -Birch(Town) It looked more like Birch to me at the time, but I 100% agree, it's likley a messily written "Bucks"
David, I remain convinced that family I followed is the correct one - for all the reasons I stated earlier. But again, the only way I can see to prove it - and to be absolutely assured you don't go chasing the wrong people - is to obtain a birth cert of Lydia (or one of those children) to see the mms.
Aside from that - in finding the parents of Mary Ann HUTCHINS and George JEANS - and with respect of Mary Ann, I would revisist the MAYBANK household of 1841 and start looking at that Samuel chap therein.
Cheers
AMBLY
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I am descended from Thomas William Hutchin born 1827 and baptised 1830 who was the son of Charles and Elizabeth Hutchin who I believe is Mary Ann's brother. Just to let you know that Mary Ann also had an older brother Samuel who was baptised on 22 Mar 1818 at St George in the East. Andy
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I forgot to say that I believe that Charles Hutchins died in March 1837 which may be why Richard Maybank gave permission for Mary Ann to marry; perhaps he was her employer. Her mother Elizabeth appears to remarry in 1840 as a widow to James Haylock, a widower. She is in the 1841 Census as Elizabeth Haylock and her son Thomas is living with her. Andy
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Hi Andy
Welcome back to Rootschat ;D
According to his profile David (djpegg) hasn't been online here for sometime. As long as his email address hasn't changed he should receive notifications that we have posted and hopefully come back soon.
Dawn