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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (North Riding) => Topic started by: smoggie45 on Friday 14 October 11 10:47 BST (UK)
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Does anyone have any idea where this exactly was , have looked on old maps but cant find it . Am assuming it was a small courtyard or something like that , My great great grandmother Rebecca Galloway nee Craddock was born here in 1856 and would like to know where it was before over the border is totally changed
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i have found a Rebecca Galloway in 1861 Census living in Field house in Little Broughton, in her Grandfathers house., the birthplace being shown as Eston. Where does the Durham place come from?
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There is still a Durham Road in Eston, so maybe Durham Place was off there.
Jen
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Actually, having just looked on Street View, Durham Road is a modern development. That doesn't mean that it didn't replace an older area of housing but I am fairly sure that it was just open fields when I grew up just down the road, so maybe my previous post should be ignored.
Jen
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My father has a newspaper cutting dated feb 6th 1953 , in which hs great aunt rebecca cox nee galloway is talking abt the family in middlesbrough . She says her mother was born in durham place and had never left middlesbrough , her father , John Galloway , was born 1851 (Feb 21) in Suffield St . They lived at Tees Cottages next to Pease Ironworks believed to be where the Riverside Stadium is now. Also how her great grandfathers family (Craddock) came to Middlesbrough from Staithes.
Regards
David
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David,
As you probably know, Suffield Street is in that area which now includes Riverside Park and that there is also Durham Road, close by. I suspect that if there was a Durham Place, it was demolished long ago.
I think that somewhere in the dozens of boxes of paperwork which came from my mother's house when she died, there might be some maps of old Middlesbrough. If I can dig them out, I'll see if there is anything to help you.
Jen
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much appreciated , thank you
Mam and dad are both from Middlesbrough , we are at Marske now and it is frustrating them as they have never heard of this place
regards and thanks
David
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I only know about some parts of the town because of what my mother told me. She grew up in Middlesbrough and my elder sister and I were both born there. But that area of town was cleared some time in the 1950s, by which time we had moved to Lazenby, so I have no personal memories of it.
You might try asking here:
http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/bridgeender/index.phtml
It is a fascinating site anyway and there are people there with first hand knowledge of Middlesbough Streets.
Jen
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will check that site out , mam was was born in newport (derwent st) in 1936 moved to brambles farm in 1943 , dad was born and bred in brambles farm . Moved to the coast in the early 60's due to mam having chronic asthma and medical advice .
I would have guessed Durham Place would be off Durham Street between Queens Sq and the Capt Cook pub but on a map i saw from abt 1850 it wasn't on there .
Am trailing round Thornaby cemetary next week for them as most of mothers ancestors from 1880 - 1940 are in there or Oxbridge Lane ,Stockton . Confirming dates we got , hopre they the same as headstones lol
David
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You may wish to try Teesside archive for monumental inscriptions.
They have volumes of them done by Cleveland Family History Society.
Archive phone number is 01642 248321.
Eddie.
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Hi all
David, Durham Place was off Durham Street in Middlesbrough. There was also a Hilda Place off Durham Street, too. They were both between East Street and Commercial Street, a bit further along the road from your suggestion of between Queens Square and the Captain Cook pub. They were both cul-de-sacs (the posh word) or dead ends (the not so posh word!) I drive down Commercial and Durham Streets when I go to work - but there are unfortunately very few original buildings left in this area of Middlesbrough.
I don't have personal knowledge of Durham Place itself, but being very interested in the history of Middlesbrough, have known its location for a while now. It appears on a 1913 map of Middlesbrough which you could buy very cheaply from the Alan Godfrey ordnance survey map site. It's the North Middlesbrough (St Hilda's and Port Clarence) 1913 map you need.
There is even a very good photograph of Durham Place in Araf Chohan's book, Middlesbrough, which is part of the Britain in Old Photographs series. I don't think I'd be allowed to post a scan of the photo here unfortunately. But maybe you could get the book through your library? The ISBN is 1 84015 1404. I'm sure you'd be fascinated to see it if your gg grandmother was born there! The book says it was off Cleveland Street, but Cleveland Street changes to Durham Street once you get past the East Street junction.
In the undated photo it looks to be a poor, narrow street of two rows of terraced houses, flat-fronted, with a stand pipe in the middle of the cobbled road. No pavements as such, and the book says there was a pub, the Golden Lion, on the left corner which is just visible in the photo. A brick wall with some sort of door or window - maybe blocked up, I can't quite make it out - or it may even be an advertising board, can be seen at the end of the street, and I can see a very faint building behind the wall - looks like a roof with chimneys. But when I look at the 1913 map, the old St Hilda's graveyard should have been behind this wall, so perhaps the photo is later than the map, and more buildings have been erected. Or maybe the building is a long way in the distance. There are a few people in the photo, children sitting on the cobbles, a couple of people in doorways, etc. The women are wearing long clothes, ankle length, possibly covered in aprons. It looks to me to be from around the 1910s or something like that.
Sorry for the long post, but I hope you find this information interesting.
whipby
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Whipby,
I don't know about David but I found your information fascinating. And it saves me having to dig out those old maps! ;D
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absolutely fascinating , will forward this info to my father
thanks and much appreciated
David
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I'm glad you enjoyed my info, I enjoyed telling you! Most people's eyes glaze over when I start talking about the history of my beloved town!
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It was my town too, though I have been gone for a very long time. I know where to look if I need any help in the future.
In fact.....do you want to find my gggrandfather?
Hmmmm...maybe I need to start another thread for that!! ;D
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apparrantly my family is one of oldest in boro , which was what the newspaper cutting was about
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Mine arrived in the late 1860s so a bit after yours, David. But I do think I still qualify as a true Middlesbrough-ite!
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you definatly are a true boro-ite , just been on fone to dad and he believes they arrived from great ayton in abt 1845-1850 , but rebeccas side arrived from yearby maybe a few years earlier .
David
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Saved me getting out my maps too! I am also a "boro-ite".
Andrea
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Walking under the Albert Bridge towards the Transporter you first arrive in Queens Square, at the Old Bank or Cleveland Club on the corner of High Gosford St, Cleveland Street began, I think Durham st. began at the junction of East St, and at the railway crossing at Vulcan St. Ferry Rd. began and ended at the Transporter Bridge So my guess is that Durham Place would be a small yard or close between East Street and Vulcan Street on the right as you go towards the Transporter, there were a number of small yards and alleys along there before the Mechanics Hall and the Royal Pub.
Suffield st began at the junction of South Street and went westwards toward Stockton St, so to give it some perspective (I used to have the old maps) walking up Sussex st. from Bridge St the first on the left would have been William St. then a small entry near to St Mary's School then the next on the left would be Richmond St. you are now on South Street and then a small street called Henry St. next would be Suffield St. and finally West Street. if you were to continue on down North St. the next on the left would be Dacre St and the Commercial st.
Hope this helps
James
Doh! I should have read Whipbys post a bit more thouroughly he has it in one,
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I'm trying to post the relevant portion of the map but to get it under the 500kb size, the quality is reduced.
Durham Place was on the left as you walked towards the Transporter.
I've circled where it was, the quality may be too poor to read the name. Hope this helps.
PS - I'm a girl!
Edit - whoops, the circle has disappeared. Anyway, hope you can locate Durham Place, off Durham Street! The quality has not reduced as much as I thought so it's all quite easy to read.
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PS - I'm a girl!
;D ;D ;D ;D
It's always a tricky one, guessing from a user name which gives no clues. :)
That's a really clear map, helpful to any Boro researcher.
Jen
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Jen, if you were serious about needing help with an ancestor, I'd be very happy to help. Did you start a new thread? Or were you just joking?
My ancestors arrived here in 1840, but had lived in Stockton prior to that, so you can say I'm a truly local girl. The first house was built here in 1830 so they were only ten years behind the town. It really fascinates me.
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Thank you for the offer.
No, I haven't started a new thread because I honestly think I am on total loser. I have rather more than my fair share of Smiths in my tree - both of my maternal great grandfathers were called John Smith and both of their fathers were William Smith. As far as I know, they weren't related, it's just pure bad luck!
I don't think I can inflict this dilemma on anyone else! ;D
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It does sound tricky! Good luck!
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fascinating map , thank you , one mystery solved !!!!!! the next is tees cottages and gilkes cottages but dad certain they where near the dock where football ground is built .
if you need any help am off work sick for a few more weeks if you need me to look for anything
David
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Won't Gilkes Cottages be somewhere near Gilkes Street? That still exists but is in a different part of town.
Jen
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thats we thought at first , but now we are led to believe that they are the same but were re named tees cottages , it gets confusing doesnt it
David
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I guess it is back to the old maps then, David.
Will whipby come up trumps again? ;)
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she did well with that Durham Place , I have the same problem on mams side as you have with John Smith . My mams great grandad was David Morgan born in monmouthshire south wales , there is thousands :o . I am going to Stockton cemetary tuesday as have found his grave so maybe get some definite date of birth
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I've found Tees Cottages in the 1891 census, they are in Enumeration District 3, using the references from this site: http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Place:Middlesbrough_Registration_District,_1891_Census_Street_Index_S-T . It seems to indicate that they were in the Tees Iron Works, which agrees with the census entry as it states Tees Iron Works (Tees Cottages) as the address. In that year there was a Robert Craddock living there, he was a Foreman Horse Keeper.
Attached is another portion of the map, showing the first part of Dock Street (lower right corner). You can still see Durham Place (upper left corner) to give you an idea of distance etc. I think Tees Cottages must have been to the upper right of this area, off the map altogether, somewhere in that vicinity. From the 1891 census it looks as though the enumerator was walking up Dock Street, from the corner of Bridge Street East, in what I think would be roughly a north easterly direction. When he got to the end of Dock Street, which is about three times the length shown on this portion of the map, he would probably have turned right, but I'm not sure of the layout of the roads from that point on, either then or now. But it's certainly heading in the direction of where the Riverside Stadium is situated now, so that fits with your dad's recollection of the location of Tees Cottages.
I think the Gilkes name refers to a man called Edgar Gilkes who was a local iron master / engine manufacturer.
And I'm almost certain I've heard of Tees Cottages before, if only I could remember where ...
Hope this helps.
Edit - oops forgot to attach the map.
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Well I've found Tees Iron Works on this site: http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html
Search for Dock Street, Middlesbrough, and a modern map comes up. There are several old maps to choose from on the right hand side.
Scroll down these old maps until you get to the 1938 Pre WWII map. (This seems to be the clearest of the area.) Click on the Enlarge Map box. You can just see the Tees Iron Works name on the shallow bend of the river, roughly vertically in the middle but towards the right hand edge of the map. To the right of the Tees Iron Works is the Ormesby Iron Works - you may find this is a bit clearer to read and will help you locate the Tees Iron Works.
The map isn't clear enough to identify the cottages, but that's where they must have been. To the right of the Riverside Stadium as it is now.
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robert craddock is rebecca galloways father, so that is the right cottages . My dad will be over the moon when i show him these maps
thank you very much
David
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You're very welcome, hope your dad is pleased. I've enjoyed doing this, I love looking at old maps and trying to figure out where things were.
Edit - I've found a better map of Tees Iron Works on the Old-Maps website. Search for Dockside Road, then choose the Cochrane's Wharf address. From the old maps on the side, scroll down to the 1894-1895 Pre WWII 1:2,500 Yorkshire map. You will see Tees Iron Works and Ormesby Iron Works in close up.
I can't see Tees Cottages marked, but the address that appears next to that in the 1891, Cargo Fleet Timber Yard, is clearly shown, so presumably the cottages must have been somewhere around there, and there are some unmarked buildings dotted around so maybe one of those is the cottages.
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One of my late gt grandad's was also a horse keeper for the steel works, but he lived in a cottage - unable to remember the name :( but the cottage was located near to where the old Grangetown fire station was, I think now it is Fire Extinguisher factory or some such thing.
I have enjoyed this thread, also born in the Boro, but lived in Marske all my life
Jane
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I've just come across this thread and found it very interesting, having been born and brought up in the Boro.
Sorry to hijack it but just wanted to ask whipby - do you have access to a lot of old photos of Middlesbrough? My ancestor had a business at 160 Newport Road in the late 19th to early 20th century, this would have been in the area that was later demolished, past the North Riding Infirmary, on the same side . I have tried in vain to find any photos of this part of Newport Road but all the ones I've come across are in the town centre around the junction with Linthorpe Road. I'd love to see what the shop and living accommodation looked like. :)
David, if you wanted to check out Araf Chohan's book that whipby mentioned, there are copies available to borrow at Laburnum Road library in Redcar, in South Bank library or in the local history reference section in Redcar main library. If you can't get it it's cos I got there first! ;)
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Hi Roobarb - I don't personally have access to lots of photos, but have just tried image googling Newport Road Middlesbrough and a few old photos do come up. There's an interesting one that has St Paul's in the distance - this might be the closest you will get to your ancestor's premises but I don't think it shows the part of the road that you're interested in, but the buildings might be very similar to your ancestor's shop.
On page 49 of Araf Chohan's book, there is an aerial view of the Cannon Street area which includes Newport Road running diagonally across the top right hand side of the photo. I think this may show the portion of the road that you're interested in, although it's very tiny! But it might at least give you an idea of the type of buildings - looks like terraced houses which have been turned into shops.
Another ordnance survey map I have of the area in 1892 also shows that between the North Riding Infirmary and St Paul's church, on that side, there look to be five blocks of what seem to be fairly substantial terraced houses (may have been three-storey) that each had a long thin garden behind, sometimes including outbuildings, and possibly, originally, a very small courtyard garden in front. If most of these houses were turned into shops at some point, then the courtyard gardens would probably have been paved over and the walls removed, making the pavement wider so that shoppers could walk straight from the street into the shop. (I'm guessing.)
Hope this helps. By the way, what was the name of your ancestor?
Jane - glad you have enjoyed the thread. I know where the current Grangetown fire station is - is it on the same site?
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Whipby, many thanks for looking for photos and for the information. I called into the reference library today but didn't have time to have a good look for Araf Chohen's book but will have a look when I get chance again. I remember someone on Rootschat posting an aerial view of Middlesbrough some time ago, I wonder if it's the same one? I thought I'd saved it but can't find it now.
My ancestor's name was Thomas Lickess, he was a house furnisher and a number of family members worked in the business.
The old Grangetown fire station was in Church Lane, it's now a tyre and exhaust company and where it said 'fire station' above the door they've very cleverly changed it to 'tyre station', looks like it always said that!
Thanks again for the information. :)
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Hi Roobarb, thanks for the photo of the "tyre station"! I don't recognise the building so am not sure whereabouts it is. My mam comes from Grangetown originally but really the only part of Grangetown I'm familiar with is Lanchester Road, where my auntie and uncle lived until their deaths some years ago - and I haven't visited the area since. I do still have an uncle who lives on the outskirts, and I think a couple of cousins live there, but I don't know where. I sometimes travel along the Trunk Road and pass the current fire station, and pass through Grangetown but it's years since I actually visited.
If you get chance to go to the Central Library in Middlesbrough, go upstairs to the Reference Library (is that where you went before?) and ask to see their collection of photos. I did this a few years ago and they have boxes of them (or they did have!). I don't know if they've been sorted out in the meantime, but when I was there I had to root around in the boxes myself, they weren't categorised. So it might be a long shot, but you never know, you might find something. And if they have actually sorted them out by now then it might be a bit easier.
Good luck and do let me know what you find!
PS - I don't know where you live but I think Acklam Library also has a copy of Araf Chohan's book.
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Whipby, the fire (tyre!) station isn't far from Lanchester Road, if you look for Lanchester Road on Google maps you'll see Eston Road to the North West, the station is just around the sharp bend (I mistakenly said it was in Church Lane which adjoins it).
I've actually tried the photos in Middlesbrough reference library, it was a very cold wet day last winter and although I didn't find what I was looking for I enjoyed the search and being in the lovely old building. I also took the opportunity to check out a number of their books while I was there. The Redcar reference library is nearest for me, I have yet to work my way through all their books!
Until recently a number of the reference books were stored away but they're now out on the shelves for people like me. :)
Thank you for your help. :)
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Thanks Roobarb - going back to the original request regarding Durham Place, I've come across the self same photo that's in Araf Chohan's book, on this site, hope this link works and that Smoggie45 sees this message!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/middlesbroughcouncil/5201874184/in/photostream/
There are loads of old photos of M'bro on there - maybe you might find something of interest too Roobarb!
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Interesting? I can't tear myself away! What a fantastic collection of photos and a great insight into how people actaully lived. Thanks Whipby, you are a love! :) :-*
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I found a photo of Argyle Street, Middlesbrough, taken about 1900. My 3 x gt grandmother lived at a number of addresses in Argyle Street between 1881 and 1904, she could be one of the women pictured standing on their doorsteps, but I'll never know! There was also a photo of the street where my Dad was born. The street is still there but it's good to see how it used to look.
Thanks again whipby. :)
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she did well with that Durham Place , I have the same problem on mams side as you have with John Smith . My mams great grandad was David Morgan born in monmouthshire south wales , there is thousands :o . I am going to Stockton cemetary tuesday as have found his grave so maybe get some definite date of birth
Hi smoggie45.
Did you find what were looking for at Oxbridge Lane Cemetery?
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Hi again Roobarb, Merry Christmas! Have an hour to spare before the family arrives, so have hopped onto the computer!
Argyle Street in M'bro - whereabouts was/is it? When I saw that photo, I assumed it was Argyle Street in, I think, Grangetown. I remember my mam talking about an Argyle Street there. Unless I'm remembering wrongly, or perhaps there's an Argyle Street in both places? It's brilliant that you've found it, and wouldn't it be fantastic if you could find out if one of the ladies was your ancestor! Which street was your dad born in?
I was hoping to find a photo of Robert Street, M'bro, as a set of my 3xg grandparents lived there during the 1870s, but no luck unfortunately, unless it's one of the unidentified ones. But the rest of the photos are great - a lot of them were obviously taken during the time things were being demolished, but it does let us see what the area was like when it was built up. I travel along many of these streets on my way to work (Stockton/Commercial/Durham/Cleveland Streets etc) and it fascinates me to see them with buildings, as most of them are fairly sparsely built up at the moment. It's good to build up a picture.
I was amazed to see the photos of the furnished rooms in East Street from the 1950s. It's shocking to see that some people were living like that only 50 odd years ago. Maybe we're too nostalgic, wanting these buildings to have been left when we have had no personal experience of living in such conditions - speaking for myself anyway. I dare say that sometimes the people in them would be glad to be rehoused into something more modern and comfortable (if that's what happened, of course).
Hope you're having a good Christmas Day, best wishes.
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Hi whipby, merry Christmas! :) And merry Christmas all Rootschatters! :)
Argyle Street was in the Cannon Street area of Middlesbrough, there's a photo here of some residents although you can't see the street itself.
http://rememberwhen.gazettelive.co.uk/2009/07/cannon-street.html
There's some very interesting stuff there about Cannon Street and the 'riots' in the 1960s.
The one in Grangetown that you're thinking of is Argyle Road, not Street. My dad was born in Brompton Street which is in the Linthorpe area, it runs between Kensington Road and St. Barnabas Road. I'll look out for photos of Robert Street for you.
I agree with you about our sentimental views of the old houses, although they're trying to demolish the ones in the Gresham area, there's a lot of opposition from the residents as many have made them into lovely homes. I think they've come to some agreement now.
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Hi Roobarb
Ah, found Argyle Street on my map, thanks for clearing that up! Had a look at the Cannon Street articles in Remember When, they were really interesting. My great grandfather's brother had a grocer's shop at 331a Cannon Street in the 1920s and I've always tried, in vain, to find a photo of that portion of the street. I once worked out where it was, and it was down towards the Newport area rather than being at the town end.
I love looking at the photos and trying to figure out where they were taken in relation to the maps that I have.
I agree it must be awful to be turfed out of your home, I hope the Gresham area residents are happy with the agreement that's been made - I'm not sure what it is.
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the council gardener showed me where graves where but alas headstones have gone . But got to go back as more of ancestors there , Mum a bit disappointed as headstones gone
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Hi smoggie, did you see the link to the Flickr photo I posted?
Which cemetery were you visiting with your mum? It is such a shame when headstones disappear, I agree.
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Thornaby, Oxbridge Lane and Durham Road cemeteries we saw were her grand parents and great grandparents were buried thanks to a helpful council gardener but them headstones were gone , her cousins headstone was still there and couldnt find some other ancestors but another trip is planned in summer . As council man said he would meet us and find the plots if we can supply the details. Also got to go to Acklam, North Ormesby and Linthorpe for her and dads grandparents to . Busy summer i think for me.
Dad is fascinated by the picture he sends hi thanks , looks like a tough life for the people there
thanks
David
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Hello Ladies, :)
For those interested: -
Smarts Cycle shop at 100 Newport Road. (I remember this as a kid :D)
http://www.kmbro.org/Photo_Gallery_p05.htm
Other (attached) photos of Newport bridge end of Cannon Street and Newport Road looking East from the Infirmary.
From Ward's Directory
331a Cannon Street in 1928 Scrafton F. Mrs. Shop Keeper
160 Newport Road in 1928 Beachim J.J. Fruiterer
George
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I've just found this thread and it's fascinating. ;D
My husbands ancestor founded (excuse the pun!) the earlier mentioned Teesside ironworks (Thomas Snowdon) and we think Snowdon Road may be named after him.
Hopkins had arrived on Teesside in 1850 to manage a fuel plant and three years later had met a Mr Snowdon. Together they formed the Teesside Ironworks which eventually merged to form Hopkins Gilkes & Co. a construction company specialising in bridge buildingas as well as the building of locomotives.
From Now & Then
From CFHS website "Mr Thomas SNOWDEN, Driver on the S & D. Later went to France and became a Loco Superintendent of a large railway, returned to Middlesbrough and started an ironworks." Looking at the wages for the Stockton and Darlington Railway on the same site he was the driver of 'Hope', the engine built after 'Locomotion'
and that Mrs Scrafton Shopkeeper could be one of mine too! ;D
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For those interested: -
Smarts Cycle shop at 100 Newport Road. (I remember this as a kid :D)
George
Gosh, I remember that as well. I suspect my parents bought bikes from them for me and my sister.
Thanks George - and for the link which I shall explore at length!
Jen
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Brilliant George, thank you so much! :D :D :D
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Thank you George, that top photo is great! I seem to have misplaced my 1913 map where I had marked where I think 331a Canon Street was. I think it was on a corner but I don't remember the name of the street. My 1895 map only shows Severs Street, just a small road with only a few houses - perhaps it was in the process of being built in the 1890s. From memory I think 331a was a bit nearer Newport Bridge end, so maybe it was Cooper Street, or another street that isn't shown on my 1895 map.
I will have to have a good search for my 1913 map to see which corner it was!
Thanks for the info, much appreciated.
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Hi Whipby, :)
I would estimate that 331 was near the corner of Derby St, between Derby St and Stanley St. based on the number of houses shown on the 1913 map and a 1928 directory. (6 houses per block, between streets.)
Cannon St ended at Samuelson St as you may know, but there were no houses on the railway side of Cannon St at the Newport Bridge end from Cooper St. (Odd number side.)
George
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Just found this as well: -
A book called Cannon Street, LEST WE FORGET By The Friendship Club Writers' Group. ISBN O 9521247 O X. It also has a map of all the streets in it.
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I've got that book and would recommend it to anyone with a family history in the area.
Me - I missed out on being a Croft Street girl because my mum left her house there, to live with my dad's parents in Borough Road, just before I was born.
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Thank you George and genjen. I'm so frustrated that I can't find my 1913 map, so I've ordered a new one from Alan Godfrey Maps. Then I will be able to see all the streets. In 1892 (another map) some of the streets don't appear to have been built yet.
I think my library has the Cannon Street book, I'll take a look next time I'm there.
Thank you for all the help and info, much appreciated.