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Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: rnewfie on Thursday 13 October 11 13:36 BST (UK)
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Can anyone please provide any information about the Croal family.
I would like to confirm if I am barking up the right (family) tree, so to speak.
I'll start off with what we do know :-
My grandmother's name was Marie (Marion) May Croal, born Q3 1899 in Great Clacton, Essex.
Her father's name was John Park Croal, born 17/08/1838 in Liverpool. Although the 61 years between Marie and her father seems wrong, her mother was born in 1868.
John Park Croal's father was Alexander Croal and his mother was Mary Park.
Now comes the speculative bit which needs confirming :-
John Park Croal's siblings were :-
Alexander Croal, born 11/07/1836 in Greenock. He apparently died in Georgetown, Guiana in Feb, 1853;
William Park Croal, born 9/10/1840 in West Derby (possibly Liverpool) and died Aug 1887 at sea in Rangoon;
Robert Weir Croal, born 1845 (don't know where) and died 5/5/1897 in Shanghai;
Isobella Sophia Croal, died Mar 1849 in Stepney, London.
Their father's name was Alexander Croal, born 3/5/1802 in Arbroath. In Greenock in 1834, he married a Mary Park, born 14/1/1808 in Greenock. He was a Master Mariner/Captain and in 1823 is recorded as living in Georgetown, Guiana. Is this the same Alexander Croal and Mary Park above, i.e. my great grandparents?
I have seen mention of a Mary Park being a 'British Guianan Colonist', whatever that is.
Is this Alexander Croal one of the British Guianan Croals which presumably Croal Street was named after?
Any information would be appreciated.
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I have seen mention of a Mary Park being a 'British Guianan Colonist', whatever that is.
I have 2 theories on Mary:
1) She was born in England and moved with her family to British Guiana
2) She was born in British Guiana to British parents, thus being a colonist.
I did notice mention of a judge named, Honorable John Croal when I attempted a google search on the last name in Guiana.
" On the 15th ult., at sea, on his passage to America, the Hon. John Croal, of Demerara, West Indies." [Note: British Guiana is sometimes referred to as Demerara, which is a river near Georgetown]. I wonder if the street is named after him?
THis is the link to that reference: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nyggbs/VitalRecords/DeathsAtoC.pdf
Perhaps he could be an important family member.
I hope this could be of some help to you.
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http://www.waughfamily.ca/Aimer/MIBarryChurchyard.pdf
Is this your source for the info? Have you got any BMd's or Census records at the English end - to save people looking up what you have already?
An interesting challenge!
1851 Census
Mary Croal Head 42 born greenoak scotland Wife of Master Mariner 14 Grove Rd (Sp) Mile end.
Alexander Croal 14 born Grrenoak Scotland
John Croal 12 born Liverpool
William Croal 10 born liverpool
Robert Croal 8 ditto
Mary Croal 5 born Stepney
Mary A Smith 15 Servant
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There are quite a few Croals on the British Guiana Colonists lists:
http://www.vc.id.au/tb/
CROAL, Alexander
* Died: 16 2 1842, Werk-en-Rust
CROAL, Alexander (Married PARK, Mary)
* Married: 19 8 1834, Greenock
CROAL, Charles Robertson
* Died: 27 3 1862, Georgetown
CROAL, Elleanor Jane (Married Name: NEISCHER. Married NEISCHER, John)
* Born: of this colony
* Married: 26 10 1834, Banns of Matrimony
CROAL, James Augustus
* Born: 16 4 1895, Demerara
CROAL, John
Also:
PARK, Mary (Married Name: CROAL. Married CROAL, Alexander)
* Born: of Greenock
* Married: 19 8 1834, Greenock
* Died: 15 5 1853, at sea
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Not sure whether this topic has been completed yet but a little extra info to add -
Your Grandmother, Marie May (Marion) CROAL was the daughter of John Park CROAL (1838-1908) born in Liverpool and dying in Great Clacton and Annie Louise DEAN (1868-1940) born in New Cross, London and dying in Battersea, London.
Marion's siblings were Annie Park CROAL (1892-1893), John Park CROAL (1893-1956) and Daisy Agnes CROAL (1896-1915).
Her father (1838-1908) was the son of Captain Alexander CROAL (1802-1888) born in Arbroath, Scotland and dying in 1876 in the shipwreck 'Lawton' off the Island of Fidra and Mary PARK (1808-1856) born in Greenock and dying in London. At the time of his death Captain Alexander was married to Susan RAITT whom I believe he married after Mary died.
Captain Alexander was the son of John CROAL (1765-1825) born and dying in Arbroath and Isobel WHITTON (1758-1822) who also died in Abroath.
Captain Alexander had a number of siblings, Robert (1794-), James (1791-), Mary (1799-), Colin (1796-) however it was Captain Alexander's other sibling John (1789-1853), my wife's GGGG Grandfather, who has the biggest connection to Guyana. He was elected the First Mayor Georgetown in May 1836 and owning a number of plantations there including 'Palymra' and 'Goodhope' the latter from which he sold lots to ex-slaves and donated land to set up a mission. It was this John Croal after whom Croal Street in Georgetown is named. He died on 15 May 1853 en route to America on the ship 'Derwent'. He had a number of children including Charles Roberston CROAL (1820-1862) my wife's GGG Grandfather, Eleanor Jane CROAL, Peter Ross CROAL, Julia CROAL, John Conrad CROAL all born in Guyana.
Feel free to contact me if you need any help following this :)
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I came across a family of Croal's who were spice merchants in the West Indies and retired to Bute, must have a look-see.
Skoosh.
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gareth_1971 - Thanks for that information.
I have fed it into my history file and produced the following PDF, which should show how we are related.
If I read it correctly, your wife is the GG grand-daughter of either Emma Simonetta, or Anna M Croal.
www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~rnewfie/Family_History/John%20CROAL.pdf
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Mewfie, a genealogy of these Croil's, (spelling probably unimportant) from Christopher Long's marvelous website,
http://www.christopherlong.co.uk/gen/croilgen/index.html
Hope you find a match!
Skoosh
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I came across this discussion whilst looking for a different Alexander Croal, born Jan 1801 in Arbroath. In the 1871 census for Barry, there is an AC, born 1803 (actually May 1902), who is a retired ship master with daughter Mary W. In 1881 he is there with daughter Mary Weir MacQorcadell and family. I was trying to find whether this AC was related to my AC who was also a master mariner. I had found the master mariner certificates of competency and the ships served on for Alexander Croal, but it gave his date of birth as 18 Jan 1802 instead of 1801, but since the other AC was born May 1802 and had a daughter born in London (where one of them took their master's exams while second mate aboard the Palmyr of London), then I was thinking that perhaps the certificates were those of the other ("your") AC rather than mine!
Reading further down the posts, I came across the very recent posting of Gareth1971 and I believe the similarity of names has possibly caused confusion. The Alexander Croal who was drowned in the wreck of the Lawton off Fidra on 29 Nov 1875 aged 75 was indeed the husband of Susan Raitt (sister to my gg grandfather John Raitt). However, they had no children, and his parents were Alexander Croal (also a ship master - died before 1839) and Jean Laurance (abt 1764-March 1839).
On the birth extract for "my" Alexander Croal, born 1801, one of the witnesses was given as John Croal - but whether this is baby's grandfather or a brother or other relative of Alexander, father of the baby Alex, I have not yet ascertained.
The Captain Alexander Croal mentioned by Gareth was indeed the son of John Croal and Isobel Witton and was born on 3 May 1802 in Arbroath. And it may be that this John is the witness mentioned above.
I have had a look at the family tree pdf from rnewfie and I am not sure of a link yet between the two Alexander Croals both born in Arbroath within a year or so of each other. I do have some stuff up on my Raitt family history site about AC, but am in the process of uploading more on the wreck of the Lawton. And I do have in my master file his various siblings (i.e. children of Alexander Croal/Jean Laurance). And I'm happy to provide or check what I can for you.
Regards
David Raitt
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I agree that the name Alexander Croal was prevalent at the time. I have 4 in my tree.
(1) Died 16 Feb 1842 in Werk-en-Rust. No relationship found.
(2) Born 13 May 1802 in Arbroath, married Mary Park (My GG Grandmother) 17 Aug 1834 in Greenock, died 3 Mar 1886 in Carnoustie.
(3) Died 1887, married Margaret (Maggie) Munroe. No relationship found.
(4) Born 11 Jul 1836 in Greenock, son of Alexander Croal(2) above, died Feb 1853 in Georgetown, Demerara.
I have no knowledge of an Alexander Croal married to a Susan Raitt, or one married to Jean Laurance.
I have linked an updated Croal family from John Croal, born 1765 in Arbroath. See if any of the names and or dates co-incide with yours.
www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~rnewfie/Family_History/John%20CROAL.pdf
In summary, most of my Croals were centred around Greenock, Liverpool, Georgetown Guyana and latterly, south east London.
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OK - here are a couple of things. I have found your Alexander Croal (m Mary Park) in the 1861 census - he and his daughter Mary W. are in Dundee St, Barry - under Croall - he is retired. (But maybe you have that and just haven't put it in your tree).
Now I may have found the birth of Isobel Whitton - there was one baptized on 20 Dec 1759 in Barry. Her parents were James Whitton and Agnes Small and there abode was in Whinny-hall, parish of Monikie. (ditto about the tree).
How sure are you of the dob of John Croal in 1765? Isobel would be some six years older than him, which might be a bit unusual. By the way John was a mason by trade.
Now there was a John Croll baptized on 5 Apr 1758 (which would make him more Isobel's age) in Arbroath to James Croll and Mary Petrie (one witness was David Petrie who could be her father or brother perhaps). Now, they also had several other children, one of whom was named Alexander who was baptized on 7 July 1760 (David Petrie was a witness).
What I like about this family is that if this John is your earliest John, then my earliest Alexander Croal, ship master and father of my gg uncle Alexander Croal born 18 Jan 1801, could be his brother (who married Jean Laurance). I'll see if I can dig up anything else on this.
As it stands at the moment, my first Alexander and his son Alexander who married Susan Raitt (and drowned in 1875), do not appear to be otherwise related to your Croals unless my speculation above is possible.
Now, turning to the master mariner side. As I mentioned earlier, I have come across various certificates of competency of Alexander Croal. Looking at them more closely, I think that records may have got muddled and are incomplete. The master's certificate does belong to my Alexander Croal I believe because even though the year is incorrect, the actual date of birth is correct - and you might remember your day rather than the year perhaps! Records of service also tie up. The certificate was granted in 1851 - yet there was an announcement in a London paper that Alexander Croal had passed his master's exams in London in 1850 and he was second mate on the Palmyr of London. Other records I found for justification relate to the Palmyr of Liverpool as well as London. Since your AC's family was in London in 1851, then this fits - especially as children were born in Liverpool.
I also note from your tree that the Hon John Croal was the owner of a plantation called Palmyra. I wonder whether he was the owner of the vessel that AC was aboard? John may also have been a ship's captain because in the late 1830s and 1840s the ship Palmyra was regularly plying between London and Demerara (as well as elsewhere) under master Croal (and this presumably can't be Alexander if he didn't get his master's certificate until 1850. I will follow up on this if you like.
Ah well, all good stuff!
Regards
David
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Bit more for your tree. Gravestone 995 in Arbroath Abbey gives John Croal, mason, d 3.1825; wife Isobell Whitton, d 21.3.1822 aged 64 (which dates you have, of course); but also daughter Mary, d 9.11.1862 (husband John Steele) and their daughter Isabella, b 13.11.1840, d 1.3.1841.
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Even a bit more! Gravestone 199 in Barry has Alex Croal, Mary Park and many of their family members. If you don't have all these dates, then I can send them.....
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It was very likely John Croal's younger brother Robert Croal, born in Arbroath in September 1794, also a master mariner, who was master of the Swift on her last voyage, when she was run down by the brig Robert off Flamborough Head in early March 1815 with the loss of all crew and passengers.
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Sorry if this is a bit late, but the University College London Legacies of British Slaveownership Database (Google LBS UCL, which should take you straight to the search form) has entries for a John Croal who was a Demerara planter in the 1830s and who subsequent to emancipation seems to have increased his holdings to include plantations Versailles and Malgre Tout. He's recorded as dying in Liverpool(?) in 1853. There are other mentions of a Mr Croal in the dairy of the second Apostolic Vicar General of Demerara, Father JT Hynes in the mid 1840s, though it's not clear if the Croal he refres to was himself a Catholic - probably not. To get the diary you have to Google "Brian Condon's Databases" where there is a transcript. It's an interesting read, since Hynes was by no means secure in Demerara. Reference in the UCL database also to kin called Ethelston. My main interest is actually the Makgre Tout plantation and its owner in 1834, Charles Foxlow Milne.
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Correction - possibly - the Wikipedia article on the Bourda cemetery in Georgetown, Guyana, says John Croal is buried there - it's therefore unlikley that he died, as I wrongly claimed in my earlier entry, he died in Liverpool.
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Yes - John Croal died at sea aboard the Derwent in 1853 - he must have been on his way to Guyana. The LBS entry does make this clear
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I wanted to reply to the author of the John Croal family tree. I have some more information to add to it. My Great grandfather Robert Wight Croal (I have his death cert)was the son of Conrad Croal and Georgina Croal (nee Imlach I think). I have the death certificate which states his parents. He moved to New Zealand after being a steward on a few boats between NZ and Australia. Then married Jane Sim Bayne and had Georgina and Grace Croal identical twins and my grandfather Robert Conrad Croal who in turn had my father Conrad Robert Croal. They like to keep the names in the family.
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~rnewfie/Family_History/John%20CROAL.pdf
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Rnewfie, do you know more about Georgina Imlach in the John Croal family tree that you posted? I think Robert Wight Croal is her son and my gggrandfather. But his marriage license says her surname as Hemlock and father as Charles Conrad Croal.