RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: Lydart on Wednesday 12 October 11 19:52 BST (UK)
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This might be the best so far as they've left it to the end of the series ! Let's hope so ... and that we DON'T see her unmade bed !! ;D
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I'm watching. Like that they have her mum starting her off with a few old photos and stories. Over a v pretty china cup of tea - perhaps Tracey is not so rock and roll after all!
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Do you know I enjoyed that more than I thought I would. I thought I wouldn't like her based on her art (which I'm really not into!) but she came across as a really decent person and so interested in her family.
Wish someone would draw out my family tree beautifully like that!
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Yup, I hold my hands up, I didn't expect to like her at all. (but until she started explaining I hadn't realised that might be because I'm condemned at present to living at the end of a cul-de-sac)
I've been very pleasantly surprised. Good episode, interesting, informative, different, and I liked her reaction to things as well.
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They saved the best until last!
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I'm with you on that portybelle, personally I wasn't looking forward to this episode as I'm not that keen on her lifestyle and style of art but it was really interesting and they covered many things we question looking at census returns... the reform school, home children, crimes and travellers....
am I as surprised as she was at her background - no ;D ;D ;D
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It was very educational for anyone interested in English social history - reform schools, emigration patterns, prison life, gypsy way of life. And a little bit of education re census searches for those considering starting a search. But it broke the mould in that she didn't go further than Warwickshire!
Shocked that 9 year olds were shipped off to Canada without their parents consent!
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I agree i relly enjoyed this 1 and i wasn't looking forward to it at all i was pleasently surprised. I was also so surprised that her ancestors came from tamworth 5 miles from me so this made it even more interesting for me. Tracy seemed like such a nice lady, well done wdytya a real nice ending to the series.
Sharon
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I enjoyed this one as well down to earth and lots of interesting information. They followed it generation by generation rather than jumping all over the place. BBC we want more like this please
panda
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I also felt this was well filled with social history. Her response to it all was very natural. I'm pleased for her that she felt empathetic to the outcome (or is it the prequel?)
JULIAN
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Other than the fact that I did my usual screaming at the TV set - "No! You don't know they were living with the grandparents - it says they were visitors!" and the phone rang in the middle, so I shall have to catch up with the bit I missed on I-player, I enjoyed this.
Hmm - I have gypsy besom makers from the Midlands - by the name of Hodgkiss, which is a variant of Hodgkins - I wonder.....
Nice to see someone explaining the use of wildcard searches, as well.
Cati
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I, too, enjoyed the social history as much as anything, as I had an gt-gt-uncle who was sent about the same time to a reformatory at the age of 9 for stealing fruit. He also had a week or so of hard labour to endure. His journey was the reverse of Tracey's ancestor - he went from rural Huntingdonshire to Leeds. He didn't go to Canada, but returned home to live with his parents and take up a good job.
I did envy her the beautifully presented family tree, though! Better get my roll of wallpaper out and start mine again. ;D
Gillg
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I was worried the huge beautifully written tree would get dirty on the ground ;D
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I really liked this one. Tracey was natural and passionate and the stories were fascinating. The insights into the prison and reform school system was an eye opener.
Paul
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An interesting episode, but I got really annoyed by Tracey's outbursts which for any other person would seem rather theatrical, but maybe normal for her ?
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I knew that the Suffolk Record Office had been filmed for one of the episodes so having got to the end with no appearance, it had to be Tracey Emin. I was curious regarding her involvment with Suffolk it was a surprise to see Kerrison.
Enjoyed this episode, not at all what I was expecting.
I'm with you Gillg - I have my original tree on the back of a roll of wallpaper, it has been added to over the years - but I began writing it thirty years ago and I know where to find all the branches and all the ancestors 8)
Now what will I do on Wednesday evenings at 9pm ::)
Pat ...
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I thought it all very interesting social history etc...the prison stories were fascinating especially the hard labour. And they did well finding all the specific reports on Grand-dad Henry....
And then - as usual - I started yelling at the telly!
They found Henry in the records which was fine. I'll believe it was the same one as they appeared to have lots of other info to back it up.
But then they show a record for his father Joseph. Except we don't know how they know for sure it is his father. Especially as he gives a birthplace in Warwickshire rather than East End of London. They didn't show us any other census info to back up this birthplace.
So - thinking "I'll just trust they have thought it through" I gave them the benefit of the doubt. They then went on to find out all about the beesom makers and the gypsies etc etc. Then suddenly they have Joseph running off from his family and getting married in London, listing himself as an engine driver - with a father who is also an engine driver. And instead of thinking - well perhaps it is not the same person - they say he must have been lying on the marriage certificate!!
No explanation as to how they verified it...
Now - most people here on Rootschat would be very wary of both the prison entry and that marriage certificate...but not WDYTYA!
Milly (about to watch it again so I can shout at the telly some more)
PS I still trust they did verify it all and didn't just go off what the man with the wallpaper family tree said was true.
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And...they just presented her with a photo of Joseph and the four girls but never told us where it came from!
Milly >:(
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Molly, couldn't agree more... I rolled my eyes at the bit with Joseph's marriage cert and the photo with the girls.
Tracy is no a actress, so I'm surprised she hadn't seen the photo of Joseph and the girls before and as she knew her nan had three sisters, she should have been able to pick her out age wise.
Nick, I think Tracy was surpressing a lot of her normal behaviour, she is usually quite different if you know what I mean
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Fraid I did my usual mid prog nap
Missed the link between Kerrison and the gypsy
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Shocked that 9 year olds were shipped off to Canada without their parents consent!
Yes, and elsewhere. And it went on right up until very recently too - within my lifetime, which is pretty astounding.
http://www.childmigrantstrust.com/
It was largely to do with empire building, with our government being in control of far too many dominions to cope with without exploiting the most vulnerable among us, even children. There was a very good dramatisation on TV about it a few years ago called The Leaving of Liverpool
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Leaving_of_Liverpool
If you google 'child migration without parental consent' or similar you'll find lots of information about it, much of it pretty harrowing.
Gordon Brown apologised to 'families torn apart' by it last year
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8531664.stm
Regards
Ann
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Agree with Milly there were lots of "gaps" when they said this was the father etc. I suppose they can only put so much in one hour.
can I suggest that we have an extended programme on BBC3 for example for us family history buffs that show the entire search carried out by their team which includes all the bits you don't see on the actual programme
panda
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I think they tend to put them on a cd, to convince us to buy their magazine.
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I agree with everyone ... a good programme to end the series. Tracey came over as natural and very interested in everything.
Pity they skimmed over her fathers roots right at the start of the programme ... with something like ... 'he cant be traced' ... the Turkish Cypriot/Sudanese slave angle would have been interesting. But her mixed race origins explains her looks ... I had thought she was possibly Middle Eastern
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I like the suggestion about the extended programme on BBC3 to go into all the detail that they couldn't fit into the programme. Judging by these forums, they'd get a pretty good audience for it, I'd say. I mean, they do it for the dreaded Big Brother, and this is FAR more interesting!
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No explanation as to how they verified it...
Now - most people here on Rootschat would be very wary of both the prison entry and that marriage certificate...but not WDYTYA!
Milly (about to watch it again so I can shout at the telly some more)
PS I still trust they did verify it all and didn't just go off what the man with the wallpaper family tree said was true.
There wouldn't be enough time to show all the evidence in one episode, but I can confirm they do verify everything. If anyone does want any references for source information please let me know.
In case you are interested the key to linking Joseph and Henry was the 1871 census, and Henry's mother, Susan Amelia Price. They are living in South Hackney next door to Susan's family. Joseph was not too concerned about being factual. In the 1871 census his birthplace is given as Birmingham and he gave his occupation as "Dirkle Worker". The enumerator obviously had no idea what it was because he used quotation marks and I've still no idea.
Mark
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Given that the BBC is in part a news organisation, there would be strict standards in place to verify information used in programmes. I would assume that their production company suppliers were also subject to a test to ensure rigour in the information used. Legal action is expensive to defend.
The genealogists and other social historians used in the programme would also have their own professional standards - and by "going public" their statements and conclusions are also subject to increased scrutiny from the Statler and Waldorfs on here ::)
Doesn't mean to say that they wouldn't make the occasional mistake, of course, but given there is only an hour for the programme, I'm not surprised that they don't display all the evidence in the final broadcast version.
JULIAN
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I don't expect them to put in all the research process as that would take far too long - but with something so obvious and so central to the story - I would think a short line in the voice over to explain their thinking would not be beyond them.
Milly
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I was also so surprised that her ancestors came from tamworth 5 miles from me ...
I thought it was Tanworth - map http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=410888&Y=270439&A=Y&Z=126
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Hmm - I have gypsy besom makers from the Midlands
What do you make of his occupation in 1871?
It seems the enumerator wasn't too sure as he put it in quotation marks. :)
RG10/334/63/54
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It is Tanworth and I have wondered for years what "Dirkle Worker" in the 1871 was meant to be. I've always suspected he was pulling the enumerator's leg.
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What's wrong with living in a suburban cul-de-sac? Her house looked pretty middle class suburban to me!
Her Price descendants look like they live in Essex suburbia and she's as related to them as she is to her gypsy ancestors.
She just annoyed me a bit, so desparate to be a bit different.
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I don't think she tries to be different ... she just is !
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Just caught up with the bit from when I went to sleep
Yes I have ancestors from Tanworth and nearby Packwood and Solihull.
No besom makers or the like, though much of this is yet to be checked against original PRs
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I was very interested in the travellers bit - I have ancestors who "travelled in work", or followed agricultural tasks round the country through the year, and I was very concerned about where they actually stayed and how they travelled, so to see the tents was very interesting.
Great photographs. I shall have to try googling to see if I can find them somewhere.
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Try youtube; http://youtu.be/fvQ0abmXGEQ
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Putting 'Dirkle worker' in Google throws up the Stevensonfamily website that covers the same ground. In 1875 Joseph was apparently a distillery worker and I would suspect that the enumerator didn't hear him properly in 1871!
Phil
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i throughly enjoyed this one, and i cant really say why tbh. i just did. i loved the social history and the fact that she really did seem to care and although her reactions were bit 'over the top' at least she cared.
i read a little about her before the programe and expected her to bit a bit odd. i think she had some rather nasty things happen to her in her teen years. so i suppose shes entitled to be 'different'. i was surpirised by the lack of bleeping her foul mouth :D either she managed to rein it in a bit or they edited it very well!
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Dirkle ??, not in the dictionary as far as I could see. Could have been deckle, a frame used in the making of handmade paper. That was the closest I could find. I also had a little nap and missed all the bit about travellers. John915
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This was a good one, lots of social history.
My older dau. was with me.[she of the "why are you interested in all these dead people?" comment] and she enjoyed it too! :o
The tents were very interesting. I have been looking at a traveller family for a friend.
When is the next series? 8)
Kooky
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I quite liked the episode. I went into it expecting to hate her simply because of who she is but she came across as quite likeable! As for the irritation factor the only thing that got me was the way they pulled this mystery photo out right at the end with no explanation of where it came from (probably some relation somewhere - but would it have killed them to say where?)
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I quite liked the episode. I went into it expecting to hate her simply because of who she is but she came across as quite likeable! As for the irritation factor the only thing that got me was the way they pulled this mystery photo out right at the end with no explanation of where it came from (probably some relation somewhere - but would it have killed them to say where?)
No it wouldn't ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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I went into it expecting to hate her simply because of who she is
If you noticed, there was no mention of her parents in this programme. If you knew what she had to contend with when she was a child, you would think that she was an angel. I am surprised as to how well she turned out - Don't form judgements about people based on what the press report.
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To be honest, when the programme became imminent, I did some quick research to find out about her parentage, and there is very little about it in the public domain. All I could glean was that her father and mother never married (allegedly), so how she came to take her father's name is a bit of a puzzle - although of course under UK law you can choose whatever name you like.
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I am surprised as to how well she turned out - Don't form judgements about people based on what the press report.
I'll judge people based on what I like thanks, especially if they spend their career making rubbish http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6553327.stm.
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Unfortunately I think Ms Emin is famous for all the wrong reasons. Whether you consider a photo of her sitting with her legs wide open, clutching coins and banknotes to her crotch is art, is a matter of personal opinion, of course ;)
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I have just tried Find My Past and BBC websites to discover the name of the archive that had all the information on the travelling folk - it was they who produced the photographs and had all the information on her family - having already researched many of the travelling families.
Tracey did have a troubled, and at the age of 13 a very traumatic, childhood and yes her father had two families. She surprised me as I had an opinion before watching the programme as her ideas of what is art and my ideas seldom meet.
I did enjoy this programme and I learned from it - which is all part of following this series for family historians surely?
Pat ...
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Was unable to watch this episode last night nor able to tape it far too many programmes on a the same time (4 that I really wanted to watch and already using the =1hr facility on them!!!!)
Anyway will be watching this via laptop.
But my contribution is that some time last year she was interviewd in Sky Arts and they showed some of her normal art work and the interviewer commented on how good this work was. She commented 'Well I did go to art school and you do have to show some talent to get in'. Very tongue in cheek, with a wry smile on her face.
I do not know very many people who like her more famous works of art, but she is an accomplished artist.
A woman who knows and speaks her own mind. Love her.
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I have just tried Find My Past and BBC websites to discover the name of the archive that had all the information on the travelling folk - it was they who produced the photographs and had all the information on her family - having already researched many of the travelling families.
The genealogist who specialised in gypsy genealogy is Eric Trudgill: his webiste is here:
www.gypsygenealogy.com
Cati
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I dont really know much about her so had no pre-thoughts of what she would be like.
By the way Nick29 a child can be given the Fathers name even though
you dont marry them if the Father goes to register the birth at the
same time as the Mother. No mystery there.
Having seen them all I still think the equal best were
Larry Lamb and June Browns
with Emilia Fox and Paul Madeleys 3rd and 4th.
They seemed to have changed the format back to the original
with Tracey and she didnt have to travel far like some of the others.
Love the series and hope they bring it back again next year
regards Sandymc
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Having seen them all I still think the equal best were
Larry Lamb and June Browns
with Emilia Fox and Paul Madeleys 3rd and 4th.
I couldn't agree more ! :)
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www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com
are asking for comments on the series and you can vote for your favourite episode.
Now's your chance to tell them what you really think! ::) :)
Linda
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Never been a fan of Tracey Emin's work. She always seemed to be deliberately vulgar and provacative but now, having seen the programme and listened to her talking, she really does seem to be a lovely person - so much for my judging her on superficial impressions! Mea culpa!
She has such a gentle voice and manner and was genuinely affected by the revelations about her ancestors - what a nice lady!
All credit to her in her professional life for achieving that very rare thing for an artist: fame and a decent living in her lifetime. ( though I'm still not sure I like all that she produces).
She has also done a lot for the artistic and cultural life of her home town.
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Like many of you I watched this episode prepared to be a bit sniffy about Tracey, but she came across as very genuine and engaging.
What particularly grabbed my interest, however, was the segment of the program with Eric Trudgill discussing gypsy families. A large chunk of my family tree comes from the villages around Solihull in Warwickshire and it includes a Sarah Hodgkins (1798-1888) and an Ann Smith (1876-1963), both surnames mentioned in the program. My family tradition even has it that the Smiths were gypsy stock.
I've e-mailed Eric Trudgill with my details, although I expect he'll be inundated with enquiries.
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My preference in this series
1 Larry Lamb
2 Len Goodman
3 June Brown
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As for the irritation factor the only thing that got me was the way they pulled this mystery photo out right at the end with no explanation of where it came from (probably some relation somewhere - but would it have killed them to say where?)
The photo of Joseph Hodgkins towards the end of the programme came from me, as did a few a few of the photos at the beginning of the programme.
Henry was my great-grandfather and his son Allan started the family history research in the 1980s. Allan had his own gypsy connections. He played guitar professionally with Django Reinhardt. I don't think he ever realised the Hodgkins family were gypsies or that his father went to reform school.
There is a little bit about Allan on the web too at http://www.paulvernonchester.com/AllanHodgkiss.htm.
The real mystery on Tracey's side of the family is why her grandfather Percy changed the family surname from Davis to Dodge in 1927-1928!
Mark
www.stevensonfamily.co.uk (http://www.stevensonfamily.co.uk)
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The real mystery on Tracey's side of the family is why her grandfather Percy changed the family surname from Davis to Dodge in 1927-1928!
Mark
www.stevensonfamily.co.uk (http://www.stevensonfamily.co.uk)
Probably explains why the program researchers didn't go down that route!
Thanks for the links Mark, its always good to know where the research material came from.
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Only just found this one. To go back to Zowster on p1, T.E.s relatives were from Tanworth in Arden, Warks, not Tamworth, Staffs. I live 5m from Tamuth too!
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Been looking for my ancestors on the Tanworth PRS on Ancestry
Due to a mistake they are labelled Tamworth, but are actually Tanworth.
(There is one page of BTs which are on under the correct name
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Pity they skimmed over her fathers roots right at the start of the programme ... with something like ... 'he cant be traced' ... the Turkish Cypriot/Sudanese slave angle would have been interesting.
There has already been something about her father on TV, perhaps they did a programme about Tracey and her art, but I definitely already knew about the Turkish Cypriot/Sudanese slave angle and I wouldn't have read anything about her in the press.
Lizzie
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Sorry but I don't like this woman. I am Romany gypsy and very proud of my heritage. It wasn't my imagination that Ms Emin wasn't at all pleased to be told she was Gypsy, she was laughing and screwing her face up saying 'What, real gypsies? Oh great'. Its obvious then that something was edited and she then appears to change her tune slightly. I think she was advised about her manner. It was also disrespectful to the gentleman (cant remember his name, grey beard) who was so knowledgable and trying to help her. This woman does not have a talent and Im unsure why shes famous. Im related to the Hoskins distantly.