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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: jule on Friday 07 October 11 22:58 BST (UK)
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Having lots of fun tracing my Davidson/Bryden and Bruce Scottish ancestors (mainly using the census records) but I have three death dates eluding me and would love some help please. Information on the Davidson line is proving elusive. Robert Davidson (B:approx 1823 White K Linlithgowshire) married Agnes Bryden (B:1821 Muirkirk) in 1842 in Muirkirk. They had 5 children with Thomas Bryden Davidson being my GGgrandfather.
I would love to know who Robert Davidson's parents were.
Son Thomas's DC says his father was a marine engineer. Robert appears on the 1851 census with 4 children and wife Agnes but in the 1861 census Agnes is head of family and a one yr old child Sam has joined the family. Did Robert die around 1860 or leave the family? In the 1871 census, Sam is absent also. Did he die? Last of all, I do not have a death date for Agnes Davidson and would dearly love to know. I have tracked her to 1891 when she lived with her daughter Agnes Mclean in Glasgow. Any help about any family member would be much appreciated. Thankyou Jule
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Hi Jule
May help just to note down Robert and Agnes's children for background:
James Bryden Davidson b. 25 Jul 1841 in Muirkirk
Agnes Davidson born c. 1847 in Govan
Sarah Davidson born c. 1850 in Govan
William Davidson born c. 1854 in Glasgow
Thomas Bryden Davidson b. 25 Jan 1855 in Glasgow
Jane Nisbet Davidson b. 1 Sep 1859 in Muirkirk
The family in 1851 (you have these already I know):
Robert Davidson 28 Mechanic In Printfield, b. White K, Linlithgowshire
Agnes Davidson 29 b. Muirkirk
Agnes Davidson 4
Sarah Davidson 1
Address: 4 Mcneil St, Gorbals
And in 1861:
Agnes Davidson 40
Agnes Davidson 14
Sarah Davidson 11
William Davidson 7
Thomas Davidson 5
Sam Davidson 1 b. Muirkirk
Address: 8 Bridge Row, Muirkirk
Monica
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Just some questions from the details above from me!
Have you looked at son Thomas' 1855 birth cert. The first year of Scottish official registration, and for one year only, the BMD certs included lots of additional info and should give you more info re parents.
What is the marital status of Agnes in 1861?
I think the 'Sam' that you are seeing on the 1861 transcripted entry is actually Jane b. September 1859 in Muirkirk (the transcript shows 'Sam' as female). A check of her birth cert would let you confirm further details on her father Robert likely.
A check of the 1851 census original image or the 1855 birth cert for Thomas will hopefully help you to establish Robert's birth place.
Given the names for the children, likely you have come across this possible birth entry for Agnes?:
Agnes BRYDEN chr. 29 JUN 1821 in Muirkirk to parents Thomas BRYDEN and Sarah TEMPLETON
Monica
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The family's 1851 census entry shows on FreeCen www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl Father Robert's birth place is given on this transcript as Whitburn, West Lothian (Linlithgowshire).
Also, young Jane b. 1859 is alive and well with grandmother Sarah I think, for 1871:
Sarah Templeton 82, Grocer, b Muirkirk
Jane Davidson 11, grandchild b. Muirkirk
Address: Garron Hill Grocer's Shop, Muirkirk
Monica
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Jule, with what info you have so far, wonder whether this could be Robert's family (with the names of his children and the refences we have to Garron Hill/Muirkirk from Agnes' family?):
From 1841:
William Davidson 40, joiner b. Scotland
Jean Davidson 35 b. Scotland
Robert Davidson 15 b. Scotland
William Davidson 14 b. Scotland
Catherine Davidson 13
Ann Davidson 11
John Davidson 9
Elizabeth Davidson 6
Mary Davidson 4
N K (not know) 2 Weeks
Address: Muirkirk Garranhill
Jumping to 1851, is I think this entry for the family:
Wm Davidson 53, wright, b. Whithorn*, West Lothian
Jean Davidson 49 b. West Calder, Midlothian
John Davidson 19, wright b. Muirkirk, Ayrshire
Elizabeth Davidson 16 b. Muirkirk, Ayrshire
Mary Davidson 13 b. Muirkirk, Ayrshire
Address: Porter Lodge, Mauchline Ayrshire
*Likely Whitburn in West Lothian rather than Whithorn - Whithorn is in a diffent county, Wigtownshire.
One to keep on the back burner until you are hopefully able to confirm...
Monica
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Sorry, for the number of posts...it's like picking at a thread sometimes and then it start to unravel.... ;D
Regarding the possible family for Robert Davidson, just additional possible confirmation that his was his family. We had a daughter Jane NISBIT Davidson born to Robert and Agnes in 1859.
I think the Davidson family from Whitburn that we have in 1841/51 is likely the correct one. I can't see on IGI the birth entry for the Robert and elder siblings in Whitburn, but the later births in Muirkirk seem to show. These give parents names as William Davidson and mother Jane/Jean NE/ISBIT:
1. Anne DAVIDSON chr. 22 March 1829
2. Catherine DAVIDSON chr. 22 March 1827
3. Elizabeth DAVIDSON b. 16 March 1834
4. Mary DAVIDSON b. 5 Aug. 1837
There are marriage/banns for parents showing on IGI:
William DAVIDSON and Jane NISBET m. 19 Feb. 1822 in Whitburn, West Lothian.
Family looks a good match for your Robert :)...subject to being able to confirm hopefully elsewhere!
Monica
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So going back to death certs....
Robert, not sure :-\ Think you need to narrow down dates from daughter Jane's birth cert forward...
Sam has become Jane and you now need to look for marriage etc.
Agnes and her death, have you discounted the Glasgow death in 1894 for an Agnes Bryden/Davidson born c. 1824?
Monica
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Thankyou so much Monica.......for questions answered and avenues to pursue! So much to absorb! I do have Thomas's Birth Cert for 1855 and it says "Robert Davidson, mechanic, 30 yrs Born Glasgow Lanarkshire" Residence is the 4 Macneil St. Marriage confirmed at Muirkirk 1842 and now you have discovered Robert junior's 1841 birth, I understand why the BC stated they had 2 boys and 2 girls living in 1855. Glad to know that Sam/Jane was OK and living with grandma Templeton also. About the deaths of Robert and Agnes.... to be truthful I didn't know where to search for Scottish BD&Ms (it's very straightforward in Australia, with tiny population and free access online) Where do you get your BD&M info? What exactly is IGI? That death for Agnes sounds right. You have given me so much information Monica that I won't be able to sleep tonight mulling it over in my mind and making the connections. I wonder why James, their first child did not appear on the 1851, or 61or 71 census. I'll try to track him down. Once again many thanks Monica from a most excited Julie
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Hi Julie
In respect of following up on BMDs (and original images of the censuses rather than transcripts) here in Scotland, the only source is Scotlands People here www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
It is free to register and do general searches but it is pay to view (although costs are reasonable). See here for additional guidance notes www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,24468.0.html There are also good help notes on the Scotlands People site itself.
IGI is the International Genealogical Index from the LDS site here http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true The LDS have now released a new site which brings together more records here www.familysearch.org/#start
Monica
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1851 census
Sarah Templeton 63
James B Davidson 9
Address: Garranhill House Muirkirk
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1861
Hannah Walson 64
John Ramsay 21
James Masterton 19
James B Davidson 19 visitor born Muirkirk Occupation: Plumber
Address: 17 Hill Street Glasgow
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1871
James Davidson 29 Head born Muirkirk occ Plumber
Agnes Davidson 30 wife born Glasgow
Robert Davidson 8 b Glasgow
James Davidson 2 b West Calder
Minnie Ferguson 4 Relationship: Adopted Daughter b West Calder
Address: 7 Bank Street West Calder Midlothian
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Thanks Sancti :) So he is alive and well too!
Monica
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Great information thanks Monica and Sancti........I had stumbled across Jane and James living with grandma, but , not knowing they were part of my Davidson family, did not connect the dots. Thanks for helping me put the puzzle together! I will use the resources you suggested Monica to search for Robert as he was definitely missing from the 1861 census. Agnes was Head of family in 1861. So he has either died or left the family. Life must have been so hard for a single mother then, so it's no wonder grandma Templeton took the baby Jane and had raised the illegitimate James. Great to know who Robert's parents were too ... more names and lives to research! Cheers and thanks Julie
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Poor relief records will have more information on the family
It may just be on census night that James was with his gran and not necessarily the case that she raised him.
Finding the marriage record of James will confirm if his father was deceased at that time.
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That's so true Sancti.... easy to make false assumptions,especially a novice like myself. I'll check it out if I can. I wonder why Sarah Templeton would not be using her married name of Bryden when she was listed as grandma to James and Jane? She was Sarah Bryden in the 1841 Census (wife of Thomas and mother of Agnes(s).) I've just found a reference to Thomas Bryden (shopkeeper) and William Bryden (Master at Ironwork's Company School in an excerpt from Pigot &Co's Scottish Directory for 1837. More leads to follow! Cheers and thanks so much for your time and help. cheers Julie
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I wonder why Sarah Templeton would not be using her married name of Bryden when she was listed as grandma to James and Jane? She was Sarah Bryden in the 1841 Census (wife of Thomas and mother of Agnes(s).)
'Tis a Scottish thing! In Scotland, married women did not 'lose' their maiden names when they married. Particularly in the earlier censuses, not uncommon to see married women or widows showing under maiden name.
It is also for this reason that death registrations have been indexed under both married surnames and maiden surnames for women (which helps a lot in narrowing down death registrations possibilities for married women).
Monica
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That's helpful to know thanks Monica .... I love learning about the customs of the day. Could you possibly confirm for me the naming custom ( after grandparents etc) Cheers Julie
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Hi Julie
This is a basic guide to Scottish naming pattern (there are many links on google if you want to read up more) www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm
If I can give some advice on this area it is simply to use it as a guide before you are able to confirm details elsewhere regarding parents. The notes on the link above are always worth bearing in mind.
Monica
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Hello Jule ::) ::)
I am not sure if you have found the info you need or may have even given up. I am not even sure if this is the same person you are looking for.
Thomas’s parents:
Robert Davidson born 1924 in Glasgow Scotland married
Agnus Bryden born 1931 in Muirkirk Scotland and had 5 children all born in Scotland. Thomas the 4th out of the 5 children.
Thomas Bryden Davidson born 25 Jan 1855 in Glasgow Scotland and died 15 Sep 1928 Timaru New Zealand. In 1928 Thomas married Elizabeth Bruce Anderson (born 1859 died 1920) in 1878 in Oamaru New Zealand.
Thomas & Elizabeth had 4 children all born in Oamara New Zealand.
1. Marion Hepburn 1879- ?
2. Robert Bruce 1881- ?
3. George Bruce 1883-1965
4. John Bruce 1886-1918
George Bruce Davidson born 1883 in Oamara New Zealand died abt 1965 at Lismore New South Wales Australia.Who married Edith Marion Newman 1890-1958) born in Walcha New South Wales Australia died 1958 in Armidale New South Wales. They married in 1914. They had 6 children all born in Armidale New South Wales.
1. George Bruce 1915-1988 died in Armidale NSW
2. Marion Bryden 1916-2009 died in Bondi Beach Sydney, married Richard John Woolnough (1919- 1958 shot himself in Armidale) see below ******
3. John Robert 1919-1958 died in Sydney, 38 years.
4. Jean 1920-2007 died in Avoca Beach Sydney, married Bert Schmitzer 1922-1971
5. Elizabeth “Betty” Grace 1925-1985 married John Herman Price 1914-1988
6. Nancy Kathleen 1926-2005 died in Brisbane Queensland, married a. William Heugh 1923-2002 died in Lismore NSW and b. Edwall Spencer Murray
****Marion was Mother of Peter Richard Woolnough (know as Peter Allen)
If these are the correct people, they are also the relative of Peter Allen who is internationally acclaimed singer, dancer, actor and songwriter. A mini series called "Peter Allen: NOT the Boy Next Door” was released Sept 2015 about his life. There is also a Show called “A Boy from OZ” that is touring (2015) and it was on Broadway. There was a document of the same name produced after he died. He debuted on Broadway in Jan 1971 with “Soon” and then played at the Ritz Theatre. He wrote/released abt 20 songs. And abt the same # of Albums.
His most popular songs are:
I Go to Rio released 1990,
Tenterfield Saddler released 1972 and is about his Grandfather, George Woolnough.
I Still Call Australia Home released 1984. Used by QANTAS (the safest Airline in the World) as their theme song.
I Honestly Love You released 1984.
He married Liza Minnelli in 1967 and they divorced 7 years later.
His long term partner was Gregory Connell and they lived in Leucadia, Encinadas California.
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Hi Terri, Yes indeed this is my family and I can't thank you enough for all this information which definitely fills in many gaps in the family puzzle. I am the daughter of Jean Schmitzer, nee Davidson and we were raised to be very proud of our Scottish ancestry so it is marvellous to now be able to share the information you have so kindly uncovered, with the rest of the family. Wouldn't it be wonderful to be privy to the circumstances which motivated the decisions and actions of our ancestors? For example, I'd love to know why a young Thomas Bryden Davidson left Scotland and travelled alone to New Zealand. All these travellers into the unknown were so brave and adventurous!
About Peter Woolnough/Allen… yes he was my cousin and you would not find a funnier, more down to earth, self deprecating and talented fellow. His sister Lyn called her only child, a daughter, Brydon (different spelling) as she loved the family name. So once again many thanks and cheers Julie
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Thanks Jule
Do you live in NSW? Does Lynne still live at Bondi Beach?
Thomas was abt 23 yrs when he moved to New Zealand & it would have been very scary. My Great Grandfather moved by himself from Wales to London aged 17 years in 1896 then London to New York 2 years later then NY to Massachusetts to California to Hawaii where he stayed. My family (5 kids, 12 years to 5 years) migrated from California to Australia in 1969 and that was scary & a HUGE HUGE cultural shock.
I had a gay cousin who grew up in Hawaii, who was 2 years younger than Peter and Larry died 2 years after Peter. I LOVED my cousin so much, not that I saw much of him after we moved to Australia.
From little I saw I of him I liked him and felt he was strong & had guts. But I am not a person that gawks at celebrities and I hate how the media & rubber necks treat them.
I LOVE Tenterfield.
Why wasn’t there a funeral for Marion? Was she buried near Peter? The sadness that family had Grace Dewberry BURHAM, her daughter Dorothy Burnham KNEIPP and Richard Woolnough sister Avie WOOLNOUGH, then Richard WOOLNOUGH.
Thanks for your help
Terri xx
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I am coming to this conversation late, but I have good news! Robert Davidson was definitely alive in January 1863, because I have a letter he wrote to his daughter Sarah then, from the ship SS Northam, 'about 2200 miles from Gall (Ceylon). He sounds well and jovial ('is your mother still as fat yet?')
I have a bunch of letters between the Davidson family siblings, mainly to Sarah who was working for a dressmaker in Glasgow. Her mum Agnes disapproves severely of her boyfriend, James Lapraik. Luckily, they ignored her, otherwise I wouldn't be here.
They are all keen on schooling, (Jane is 'top of the class'), Tom works for the doctor stirring the potions. They go to church regularly, enjoy a dance, and play the concertina. Sarah goes to a 'Diorama' in Glasgow, I think it's an early cinema.
I hope some of you may see this (even though it is sadly 8 years after your conversation)