RootsChat.Com
Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: TropiConsul on Monday 03 October 11 04:29 BST (UK)
-
" 1818- James McCallum weaver in Burnie of Wester Moffat and Mary Murray Spouse had a daughter born there on the 22nd Novr and baptized here on the 7th of March 1819 Matno Sponsor and named Jane McCallum"
The place name looks like Burnie to me, but I can't find it in Scotland's Places.
Matno Sponsor might be a Latin term, but I can't figure it out.
Any ideas?
-
I think the place is Burne as there aren't enough strokes for Burnie (and I think the dot is just a mark on the page). But I'm not familiar with Scotland at all so I've no idea whether such a place exists...
It looks like 'Matre Sponsor' to me. At first I thought it might be an abbreviation of maternal, but now I'm thinking it was an attempt to spell 'Mature'. But I'm not sure.
Alexander
-
Hi
I agree with Burne - it would be worth checking out the old maps on:
http://maps.nls.uk/
The phrase below is, I think, Matro Sponsore - meaning Maternal Guarantor/Sponsor
gnu
-
Hi again
On modern maps there is a Burn Wood just to the south of Wester Moffat Farm and further NW is a Burnhead. I think that Burne must be along the burn that runs N-S - close by Moffat Mills. The burn seems part of the North Calder Heritage Trail
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0fcm/
gnu
-
I think the underlined phrase is "Matre Sponsore" - what a grammarian would call an ablative absolute. The translation would be something like "with the mother as sponsor". (Note that no other name is given here that could apply to the sponsor.)
Arthur
-
As near as I can tell "Matre Sponsore" means "mother of guarantor". That indicates that one of the child's grandparents was the sponsor.
-
As near as I can tell "Matre Sponsore" means "mother of guarantor".
No - "mother of guarantor" would be "mater sponsoris". The word endings in Latin are absolutely crucial in determining how words relate to each other, and automated translators don't always get it right. Here, the -e ending can only be the ablative case, leading to the translation I've proposed ("with the mother as sponsor").
That indicates that one of the child's grandparents was the sponsor.
But then "mother of sponsor" would be the child's great-grandmother - ??
Admittedly my translation might raise the question "whose mother?", but in the absence of any other indication (or indeed any other name), I think it has to be taken as the child's.
Arthur
-
Hi
I did translate it as Maternal Guarantor/Sponsor early this morning:
The phrase below is, I think, Matro Sponsore - meaning Maternal Guarantor/Sponsor
gnu
By this, I assumed that the mother acted as sponsor
gnu
-
Thanks for the help. I've studied Spanish and German (where I was bedeviled by the nominative, genitive, accusative, and dative cases) but neither language prepared me for the complexities of Latin where one encounters the ablative absolute, a thermodynamic condition that might be approximated in an expensive university chemistry lab by a careless and unsupervised sophomore with a death wish! Ergo I will decline the opportunity to decline Latin phrases with those who were properly educated in the subject.
What is the social or cultural or religious significance of "Matre Sponsore"? Does this mean the parents were not Presbyterian? Does this mean the father was illiterate and the mother was literate? I have not encountered this phrase in any other record.
-
Phrase looks like more like'Natro Sponsor' to me.
-
Phrase looks like more like'Natro Sponsor' to me.
In isolation you might say that, but compare the "N" in Nov[embe]r on the line above, and Named on the line below; also look at March on the same line. I think there's an "e" on the end of Sponsor, but it's a bit indistinct where the page goes darker.
-
The Burne thing's a bit strange, there is a Burnhead but that's a mile away & in New Monkland parish.
Wester Moffat's quite specific, Moffat's a little to the west of there & also a paper mill on the North Calder. Easter Moffat's a Big Hoose! There's a Burnybrae but that's a mile & a half to the south, near Chapelhall.
Skoosh.
-
Thanks to all of you for your kind assistance.
-
This might be the place you are looking for. I found Wester Moffat on this series of maps at NLS, and on this sheet just south of it, there is a house called Burn.
http://maps.nls.uk/view/74400787#zoom=6&lat=3497&lon=5778&layers=BT (http://maps.nls.uk/view/74400787#zoom=6&lat=3497&lon=5778&layers=BT)
-
Hmmmm don't see it Isabel!
Skoosh.
-
Oops! Sorry, I somehow managed to put the wrong link. This is the adjacent sheet.
http://maps.nls.uk/view/74955895#zoom=3&lat=6534&lon=6614&layers=BT (http://maps.nls.uk/view/74955895#zoom=3&lat=6534&lon=6614&layers=BT)
-
Isabel, you're right, well researched!
Skoosh
-
:) Thanks, Skoosh.
-
This information confirms and consolidates what I know of the family history. My grandmother, Margaret Gordon Dunsmore (1892 London-1967 Houston) was the daughter of a commercial traveller for a lace manufacturer and grew up in Milngavie as the oldest child and only daughter in a family that included five surviving sons. The 1911 census shows her to be a scholar of singing, Press clippings from 1912 and 1915 show her as winning awards in singing competitions.
-
" 1818- James McCallum weaver in Burnie of Wester Moffat and Mary Murray Spouse had a daughter born there on the 22nd Novr and baptized here on the 7th of March 1819 Matno Sponsor and named Jane McCallum"
The place name looks like Burnie to me, but I can't find it in Scotland's Places.
Matno Sponsor might be a Latin term, but I can't figure it out.
Any ideas?
Apologies if this has been answered, but I got....
1878 James Mccallum weaver
in Burnie of Wester Moffat and
mary murray spouse had a
daughter born there on the 22nd
Nov and baptized here on the 7th March 1879 _ sponser
and Mairead Jane McCallum
I think if this is a Church of Scotland family, which it looks like it may be, it would be unlikely to contain any Latin.
I'm from Scotland btw :)
-
Thank you, CF1981. Scotlands People gives the date of baptism as 1819. Burn appears to be the name of the house. Latin phrases are quite common in the writing of lawyers, and Presbyterian and Episcopal clergy of this period. I have adherents to both faiths among my Scottish ancestors, but no Roman Catholics that I know of. A working knowledge of Latin was a requirement of most university curricula in the era. Jane was the older sister of Grizel or Grace McCallum who was my direct ancestor. I have attached the record of Grace's baptism record.
-
Thank you, CF1981. Scotlands People gives the date of baptism as 1819. Burn appears to be the name of the house. Latin phrases are quite common in the writing of lawyers, and Presbyterian and Episcopal clergy of this period. I have adherents to both faiths among my Scottish ancestors, but no Roman Catholics that I know of. A working knowledge of Latin was a requirement of most university curricula in the era. Jane was the older sister of Grizel or Grace McCallum who was my direct ancestor. I have attached the record of Grace's baptism record.
Ah right, I am a Roman Catholic myself... And was always under the impression that the Calvinist churches were very anti-anything to do with Catholicism, like statues and crucifixes and Latin, since that is the official language of the church, I will bear that in mind, thank you.
I would say, Burn in Scotland is a name for a small river.... That may be something to do with it. I'll have a look at the other document you posted :)
-
Mairead Jane McCallum would be Margaret Jane
Mairead being gaelic for Margaret
Annie
-
Mairead Jane McCallum would be Margaret Jane
Mairead being gaelic for Margaret
Annie
It's definitely Grizel on the other one, would you agree? Grizel is an archaic girl's name in Scotland. Not many about now.
-
Thank you, CF1981. Scotlands People gives the date of baptism as 1819. Burn appears to be the name of the house. Latin phrases are quite common in the writing of lawyers, and Presbyterian and Episcopal clergy of this period. I have adherents to both faiths among my Scottish ancestors, but no Roman Catholics that I know of. A working knowledge of Latin was a requirement of most university curricula in the era. Jane was the older sister of Grizel or Grace McCallum who was my direct ancestor. I have attached the record of Grace's baptism record.
It says James McCallum is from Clarkston, which is an area of Glasgow if that's any help :)
-
Thank you, CF1981. Scotlands People gives the date of baptism as 1819. Burn appears to be the name of the house. Latin phrases are quite common in the writing of lawyers, and Presbyterian and Episcopal clergy of this period. I have adherents to both faiths among my Scottish ancestors, but no Roman Catholics that I know of. A working knowledge of Latin was a requirement of most university curricula in the era. Jane was the older sister of Grizel or Grace McCallum who was my direct ancestor. I have attached the record of Grace's baptism record.
And the other names I think are, Mary and Alexander Morrison, if you don't already know that :)
-
Yes, Agreed Grizel/Grizell/Grizzel & possibly other variants is an old name for Grace.
Annie
-
Thank you again, CF1981. As a fifth generation Texan, you may regard me as quite deficient in my knowledge of Scottish language and custom, although as their eldest grandson, I was well acquainted with with my father's Glaswegian parents. I am attempting to correct that deficiency and this forum has proved invaluable. Last July I was able to visit Glasgow, Kilsyth, Edinburgh, and London. That was my first trip to the UK.
-
Mairead Jane McCallum would be Margaret Jane
Mairead being gaelic for Margaret
Annie
Thank you, Annie. I will definitely pass that on to my daughter (now in her mid twenties) who has always been known to family and friends as "Maggie" although she was named Margaret in honor of my grandmother, a woman who was loved and cherished by all who had the good fortune to know her. That lovely woman was also known as Maggie to her many friends.
-
I've been looking at my neighbour's family tree and found out that her ancestor Helen MCCALLUM married James GOLDEN at Glasgow. It was on 31 Dec 1856 at Coatbridge by an English Episcopal Church service, the civil marriage registration giving Helen's parents as James MCCALLUM & Mary MURRAY and James' parents as John GOLDEN & Charlotte PURL. Their residences at the time of marriage were both given as Dundysaw in Old Monkland, Lanarkshire.
James and Helen emigrated to New Zealand arriving at Lyttelton 16 Feb 1864 on the ship MERMAID, they being described in the passenger list as being from Stirlingshire. They settled at Rangiora in Canterbury province.
New Zealand, Archives New Zealand, Passenger Lists, 1839-1973
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FSBF-PZP
James GOLDEN died 1866 and widowed Helen married again to Edwin EVANS in 1872 but he died 1881 at Rangiora. By this time the family were known as GOLDING in records at the New Zealand end. A few years later Helen (aka Ellen) and her family moved to the Northcote suburb of Melbourne in Victoria, Australia where she died in 1903. Some of her family returned to New Zealand, eg her son John GOLDING who had married Ellen Christina THORNE at Christchurch NZ in 1885 and whose daughter Alice was born at Northcote in 1894. Back in NZ Alice married Charles Frederick IVORY at Christchurch in 1922, and these two are the grandparents of my neighbour.
I can find only one marriage at Scotlandspeople or elsewhere to be the parents of Helen MCCALLUM, that of James MCCALLUM & Mary MURRAY at the East Church, parish of Perth, Perthshire in 1814, but it's a little early given that Helen's ages on documents indicate birth about 1831.
Online I've noticed a couple of trees that have this couple having children Mary at Perth in 1816, Jane at Shotts in Lanarkshire in 1818 (the person whose baptism interpretation has been under discussion), Grizel at New Monkland in Lanarkshire in 1820, and four issue baptised at Slamannon parish in Stirlingshire, being Margaret Murray 1825, Helen 1827, Ann 1831 and Agnes 1833.
It is oh so tempting to jump in boots and all to enter all these details regarding issue to James & Mary into my database, but the databases have no sourcing and there is a fair spread of years over all the issue, so that I have to be careful that there wasn't another couple of the names lurking around. At marriage in 1814 James MCCALLUM is described as being in the Lanarkshire Militia which doesn't sound much like a weaver. That's not a real problem, because people change occupations or can have more than one occupation at a time, but it doesn't help.
If the above is true then my neighbour will relate to people in this conversation?
Peter
Christchurch, New Zealand
-
I've just had a proper look at maps and I see that I am being a bit loose by describing some places as being in Glasgow. Coatbridge is a fair way out of Glasgow and the other places further still.
The baptisms for most of the children of James MCCALLUM & Mary MURRAY are all in the same geographic ball-park except for first one of Mary at Perth, but even then Perth is not so far from Stirlingshire.
So geographically I can see the baptisms all belonging to the same couple. I wish that was enough to be sure.
I'm finding James GOLDEN & Helen MCCALLUM tough to find in census data, also the baps/births of their children.
Here's another view of Burn in the six inch OS series of 1899
http://maps.nls.uk/view/75650751
The marriage of James GOLDEN & Helen MCCALLUM was an english episcopal service at Coatbridge, which sounds like the place in this link:
http://www.saintspaulandjohn.org/?page_id=38
"By 1839 there were upwards of 300 Church of England families in the area and so it was decided to build an Episcopal Church in Coatbridge. This was followed in 1893 with St Paul’s in Airdrie and in 1895, St Andrew’s, Gartcosh. All three united in 1992."
And this link:
http://www.saintspaulandjohn.org/?page_id=42
"St John the Evangelist, Coatbridge
St John’s opened for worship on Lent 5, 2nd April 1843, and was consecrated on 4th May 1843 by Right Reverend Michael Russell, Bishop of Glasgow.....
.....The old records for St John’s are now held in the Archives of North Lanarkshire Council."
Peter
-
the church is in St John Street in Coatbridge
-
Dundysaw probably Dundyvan.
Skoosh.
-
It says James McCallum is from Clarkston, which is an area of Glasgow if that's any help :)
Not really. There's another Clarkston in the parish of New Monkland, just north-west of Wester Moffat.
Wester Moffat House is a large imposing building - see http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4093853 - but it wasn't built until about 40 years after Jane was baptised. It's a typically lavish mid-Victorian edifice intended to impress. The original Wester Moffat is a farm on the other side of the river, east of Wester Moffat House. Go to http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NS7965 and click on the map, and you will see it on the larger-scale pop-up map.
Burn of Wester Moffat has been obliterated by the large industrial buildings of Moffat Mills.
For the record, I think the record reads
1818 James McCallum Weaver
in Burne of Wester Moffat and
Mary Murray Spouse had a
Daughter born there on the 22d
Novr and Baptized here on the 7th March 1819 Matre Sponsore
and Named Jane McCallum
I've never seen 'Matre Sponsore' before but it has to mean 'sponsored by the mother'. As far as I was aware the term 'sponsor' was only used in the Roman Catholic registers, but there is no matching baptism in the RC records that would confirm this.
I have seen, in the Church of Scotland records of the neighbouring parish of New Monkland, "presented by the mother the father being under scandal". In that case my 3rd-great-grandfather had been banned from the kirk for persistent refusal to attend services in the kirk (a bit counter-productive!) and the Kirk Session had refused him baptism for his child, so the baby had to be presented by my 3rd-great-grandmother instead.
This is the extract from the Kirk Session minutes: 2nd March 1802: Compeared John Wilkie from Airdrie requesting the privilege of baptism for his daughter, and it having been reported to the Session by the Elders of Airdrie that John Wilkie seldom or ever attended any place of public worship and that he had continued for several years past habitually in the neglect of this duty, the Session therefore were of opinion that he had no right to the sealing ordinances of the Gospel whilst he continued in this criminal neglect of attending the public worship of God in the Church upon the Lord's Day - they therefore did and hereby do suspend him from all sealing ordinances of the Gospell untill he give evidence of his repentance and reformation. [East Monkland Kirk Session minutes, National Archives of Scotland CH2/685/4/57]
So maybe John McCallum had upset the Kirk Session of New Monkland too, and his wife had to present their baby for baptism in Shotts instead.
Edit: Just looked at the map again, and realised that although Wester Moffat House is in New Monkland, Wester Moffat Farm, and Burn (of Wester Moffat), are both in the parish of Shotts. So of course the daughter of James McCallum and Mary Murray would be baptised in Shotts.