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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Flintshire => Topic started by: ChrisEdwardsUSA on Saturday 01 October 11 03:33 BST (UK)
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I have traced my paternal lineage back to William Edwards, born in Ysgeifiog in 1811.
1841 Census records indicate he was married to Sarah, and by the 1851 census to Sophia, still residing in the village.
Can anyone please advise how I can trace the family line back beyond William? I have been using Ancestry.com & it seems getting back early than 1837 is not possible?
Any advice gratefully received :)
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How sure of the date are you? (as 1841 can be a few years out) I have transcribed copies of Ysceifiog Parish Church but only up to 1812. Possible baptisms are
William baptised 11/6/1811 born on 8/6/1811 s/o Goodman & Mary
William baptised 2/9/1809 born 1/9/1809 s/o John & Ann (Luke)
William baptised 15/9/1808 born 14/9/1808 bastard s/o Robert Lloyd & Sarah Edwards
Do any of his childrens names match with possible parents names? To get confirmation, I would suggest that you order the cert/request look up of Williams marriage to Sophia to confirm his fathers name, or a look up request for his first marriage. Is it def the same William Edwards in both census?
Sarah
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The NWBMD has a marriage 1838 at Ysceifiog, St Mary for a William Edwards to Sophia Parry.
Is the name clear on the 1841 census as Sarah?
HTH,
Megran.
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The details in the 1841 and 1851 census returns suggest it is the same William Edwards.
1841 has William married to Sarah, the name is distinct. They have children who include John, aged 2 and Richard aged 1 month. The family is living at Ffynnon Lon... William is shown as aged 30, Sarah, 36.
In the 1851, William is shown as aged 40, married to Sophia, aged 42. Their chidlren include John, aged 12 and Richard, aged 10. The family are living in Bryndengan (??)
The names and ages of John and Richard, suggest this is the same family.
It appears that Sarah died between 1841 and 1851. I have checked BMD but there are a number of deaths registered for a Sarah Edwards in that period. The registration should have been in Holywell district.
Some of the records for Ysceifiog are on Freereg but I couldn't find anything for him, or them, on there. http://www.freereg.org.uk/
Have you found them on the 1861, or later census returns? There may be more clues there.
The problem with genealogy in the Ysceifiog area is that there were so few surnames and it is very difficult deciding who is the right person. I have this problem myself with a 4xgt grandmother by the name of Mary Williams born 1790. I looked at the parish registers to find a total of 5 possible Mary Williams all born there at that time. I shall never know who was "my" Mary.
Jo.
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You may like to read the details on Ysceifiog on the Genuki site:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/FLN/Ysceifiog/
Jo.
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1841 has William married to Sarah, the name is distinct. They have children who include John, aged 2 and Richard aged 1 month. The family is living at Ffynnon Lon... William is shown as aged 30, Sarah, 36.
Actually, no it doesn't!
The 1841 census did not show any relationship to Head of Household, nor places of birth.
You can usually infer that a couple enumerated in the same house were man-and-wife, but it isn't proof that they were! ;D
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Thank you for the response to my request! It has exceeded my expectations.... I went to bed last night wondering if I would get anything useful back, now I have some leads to follow-up ( it seems the marriage certificates hold the key to the earlier generation ), and thank you also for the links to information on Ysgeifiog. It was interesting to see another William Edwards mentioned in the BBC link 1790-1855, referred to as the "Bard of Ysceifiog", probably a uncle or brother of "my" William...
Personally I was born in Chester, but have not lived in the area for over 10 years, if was not living in New Jersey, I would have been taking a trip to Ysgeifiog this weekend!
The last 24 hours have been fascinating, I am hooked!, thanks again....
Chris
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Quote from KGarrard earlier today:
The 1841 census did not show any relationship to Head of Household, nor places of birth.
You can usually infer that a couple enumerated in the same house were man-and-wife, but it isn't proof that they were! Grin
I accept that the 1841 census didn't show relationships and my mistake in the post quoted. My main point was that Sarah's name was clear, this followed a suggestion in a previous post it may not have been. There was no suggestion that it showed place of birth.
It is accepted that the census does not represent proof of a marriage between William Edwards and Sarah. They are shown in the same household as is pointed out.
I did not mention the fact that ages were rounded up, or down, to the nearest five years in the 1841 census. Given the age of Sarah being shown as 36, I wonder if this was applied by the enumerator in Ysceifiog.
Jo.
Jo.
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Sorry, Jo.
It wasn't personal! ;D ChrisEdwardsUSA made the same point in the original post, but I was too lazy to scroll all the way there!!
And, in light of Megran's post regarding a possible marriage to Sophia in 1838, maybe the Sarah quoted was mis-written by the enumerator, or Sarah wasn't William's wife? Or it's a different William?! :o
I just didn't want anyone falling into the trap of thinking that William and Sarah were married.
True, they might be - but there is no proof!
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1861
I can`t find Sophia in 1861, but there is this death.
Deaths Dec 1855
Edwards Sophia Holywell 11b 180
Did he remarry again ?
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That is interesting Wilcoxon as I noticed what appeared to be the right William Edwards in later census returns but married/living with someone else.
The 1871 has William Edwards in 20 Bryn den Gurnw (?) Ysceifiog aged 60 and with Anne, wife, aged 49. This suggests to me that it was a second marriage at least. They have a son David Edwards, unm, aged 21, born Ysceifiog living there too. This appears to be the same place in Ysceifiog, Bryn.... that William was living in the 1851 census. RG10/5642 Folio 57 Page 4.
In the 1861 census, William Edwards, age 50, is living at 40 Brynden.....??, Ysceifiog, with Ann, wife, aged 44. They have others living with them shown as Lebbeus Jones, unm, age 19, Son In Law, Agricultural Labourer and David Jones, age 9, Son in Law, both born Ysceifiog.
David's age more or less agrees that with David Edwards, Son, in the 1871 census. Did he change his name to Edwards?
There is a couple on the 1881 census, William Edwards, age 68, born Ysceifiog and Anne Edwards, age 63, born Denbigh. The ages have wandered a bit but I suspect it is the same couple.
The maiden name of Anne appears to be Jones from the details given for the two people shown as Son in Law in the 1861 census. Marriages for William Edwards to Anne Jones on BMD are in the December quarter of 1855 in Holywell RD (a bit quick) but North Wales BMD shows this marriage in Ysceifiog, St Mary, so it looks possible.
Jo.
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deleted
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Bryndergwm / Bryndegurn, Ysgeifiog
I think one of these may be the name of the place or maybe they are the same.
Both are from National Archives
Township: Bryndegurn, Parish: Ysgeifiog
Bryndergwm, Ysgeifiog, Flint,
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OK, so I have a little further information, but also a couple of questions....
Having contacted the Registry for the marriage certificate of Henry to Sophia, I found out that his father is named as John (which ties with one of the Baptisms identified by Sarah!)
So now the questions :
Marriage to Sophia confirmed in 1838, 1841 census shows William living with Sarah, 1851 census shows living with Sophia..... did he re-marry Sophia?, could Sophia be spelled incorrectly in 1841?, were there 2 William Edwards of the same age living in the same village (with 2 children sharing same names & ages)???
I am thinking the next logical step is to see if there is a record of a marriage between William & Sarah, & to see if date of birth / father's name match?
If anyone can suggest other next steps, or can help identify the date / place for a marriage William&Sarah I would appreciate it.....
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Hello, I'll be going to the archives tomorrow or Friday I'll take a quick look at the Ysgeifiog parish records.
Paul.
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Thanks Paul....
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Ysgeifiog marriage May 12 1838.
Willaim Edwards(x). 30. bachelor. Occ, Miner. abode, Y Fron. Father, John. Occ, Miner.
Sophie Parry. 29. Occ, Employed in the papermill. abode, Lllyf????. Father, John. Occ, Slater.
Witnesses. Joseph Hughes & James Thomas.
Baptisms for children of William & Sophie Edwards.
Sep 3 1838. John.
May 13 1841. Richard.
March 13 1844. Harriet.
Sep 14 1845. Margaret.
March 23 1851. Ann.
Burials.
Harriet Edwards. Mg????yllan. May 22 1844. Infant.
Ann Edwards. Bryndeugwm. Sep 28 1851. Infant.
Sofia Edwards. Bryndeugwm. Nov 7 1855. Age 45 yrs.
Marriage Dec 22 1855.
William Edwards(x). full age. Widower. Labourer. Bryndeugwm. Father, John. Miner.
Anne Jones(x). full age. Spinster. Bryndeugwm. Father, Edward. Labourer.
Witnesses. Robert Jones & Evan Roberts.
Hope this helps.
Paul.
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So now we are fairly certain, or as certain as this business ever gets that William is the son of John Edwards and Ann (nee Luke) they also had at least one more child John baptised and born on 23/11/1812, I can't see any other siblings suggesting that William was probably the eldest and they had more children post 1812 which I don't have the records of :'( I also looked for the marriage of the parents which I'd have thought would be approx 1808 but they didn't marry in Ysceifiog, if I remember i'll have a look in my Holywell records, the fact that they didn't marry their sggests Ann Luke was from a different parish and infact i've searched the index of my baptisms and there are no Luke's fullstop. So on to the Parry family...
Sophia Parry born 22 Jan 1808 baptised 24 Jan d/o John and Margaret (nee Gammach) abode P (index states P stands for)Prysey/Prusse (I've never heard of it but must be an area in the parish of Ysceifiog). Sophia's siblings are :-
William born 6/7/1812 baptised 18 July (mothers surname spelt Gamock)
Alexander born 1 March 1810 baptised 4 March (Gammock) abode given as Pant
William born 14 Nov 1806 baptised 19 Nov (Gammack) abode P
Priscilla born 12 June 1805 baptised 20 June (Gamoch)
John Parry and Margaret (signed Margreat) Gammack married by licence on 23 May 1805 both single and of parish witnessed by Edward Parry and Robert James. I'll see if I can go any further back later
Sarah ;D
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Pleased to see that such good progress has been made.
I assume that the name of Sarah, shown with William's household in the 1841, must have been a mistranscription.
Some of the parish records for Ysceifiog are on Freereg. There are baptisms for the period after 1812 but I cannot find anything for baptisms for children of John and Ann Edwards. There were a couple by the name of John and Sarah Edwards baptising children in the years 1817-1823 at least. There may be more. John was a Miner and Sarah's maiden name was Roberts.
Jo.
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The Ysceifiog records on Freereg aren't for the parish church but for the chapels in Babell and Lixum :)
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hi my family of Luke's come from the tremeirchion area might be the same Luke maybe it is worth a look
Wendy
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Pleased to see that such good progress has been made.
I assume that the name of Sarah, shown with William's household in the 1841, must have been a mistranscription.
Some of the parish records for Ysceifiog are on Freereg. There are baptisms for the period after 1812 but I cannot find anything for baptisms for children of John and Ann Edwards. There were a couple by the name of John and Sarah Edwards baptising children in the years 1817-1823 at least. There may be more. John was a Miner and Sarah's maiden name was Roberts.
Jo.
Thanks for reminding me Jo. :-[ I did find a baptism for parents William & Ann Edwards.
April 4 1863 Harriet.
But William is a miner and with all his children with Sophia(except the first John) he was a labourer :-\
Paul.
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Pleased to see that such good progress has been made.
I assume that the name of Sarah, shown with William's household in the 1841, must have been a mistranscription.
Some of the parish records for Ysceifiog are on Freereg. There are baptisms for the period after 1812 but I cannot find anything for baptisms for children of John and Ann Edwards. There were a couple by the name of John and Sarah Edwards baptising children in the years 1817-1823 at least. There may be more. John was a Miner and Sarah's maiden name was Roberts.
Jo.
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Thanks to all for the valuable contributions :) This exercise is like doing a huge jigsaw puzzle, but where all the pieces may not be available!
So it looks like my Great Great Grandfather was Henry, Born 1832-3 (son of the William we have been researching), is it possible to trace details of either Birth or Baptism to confirm names of both parents? (this will help us get over the Sophia/Sarah conundrum), I don't know if these records exist, or where to find them...
Chris
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Baptism record of Henry Parry (Edwards) bastard child of William Edwards (Lab) and Sophia Parry abode Trefraith on 2nd June 1831
Sarah
PS I wasn't sure if this next one was yours but having looked up the family in 1841 I'm pretty sure it is baptism of Peter Parry (Parry) bastard child of Thomas Parry (Shoemaker) and Sophia Parry abode Halkyn on 1st Oct 1836
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Thank you for the response Sarah.
From this latest information it would seem reasonable to conclude that we have a positive link between Henry and the "right" William, with Sophia, even though Henry was born almost 7 years before the eventual marriage between them.
Having reached a conclusion on William, and having referred back to the baptism records previously provided by Sarah, William looks to have been born 1/9/1809, s/o John & Ann (Luke). This would fit with William's fathers name and dob on his marriage certificate.
Finding a baptism / birth record for a John Edwards (sometime pre 1790), is this possible, do these records even go back that far???
Regards, Chris
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Hello ChrisEdwardsUSA,
According to Genuki, the parish registers for St Mary, Ysceifiog, go back to 1662. You have much more to discover yet. ;D
Jo.
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Thanks Jo!, potentially another few generations to be discovered then.....
Are these Parish registers just available on micro-fiche in Hawarden?, or is there any other way to access them?
Chris
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They are available on microfiche in Hawaren, National Library of Wales and Cefn Mawr (Clwyd Family History Society) or you can purchase from Clwyd FHS transcribed copies of the parish records. I have these transcribed copies but the problem is your not going to know which John Edwards is yours if any, it worries me that there is no marriage for John to Anne Luke and despite the fact that I have now purchased the records for Ysceifog between 1813-1910 I could find no more than the two children I had already found pre 1813. Perhaps you could try finding the couple on the census first to see if you can identify where they are from.
Sarah :)
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Sarah : thank you for the tip & information. As suggested I have spent some time looking for John & Ann in the census records.
For some reason 1841 did not turn up anything useful, but in 1851 I did manage to find a John (70, B.Holywell), & Ann (71, B.Ysgeifiog).
So whilst there is a match on names / locations, and ages are about right, we obviously have no resident children to cross-reference. One assumes that if this Ann were from Ysgeifiog you would have identified a record of the marriage, on the basis it would have been customary to marry in her parish church..... I guess the marriage event would have been in the range of 1800-1808.... but I wonder where?.....
Chris
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I am as sure as I can be that Ann is not from Ysceifiog, she is easier to trace back as she has an unusual surname, and there was no marriage in Ysceifiog or baptism for her, I do have some other local records so will have a look at the neighbouring parishes I have (Holywell, Trelawnyd, Nannerch and I mite have Whitford) but to be honest she could be from anywhere! Perhaps if any other member holds local records they might look in theirs for the marriage. I do hate brick walls lol
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.... I do hope that this is not the brick wall / end of the road that it may be, I was hoping to get comfortably into the 1700's....
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Had a bit of a scout round to see what other info I can find on the family so I have already listed some siblings for Sophia Parry but I now have some more and a couple of dates of death for the ones I'd already given you so complete list is :-
Priscilla 1805 - 25/4/1806 buried 28/4/1806
William 1806 - 1/4/1807 buried 4/4/1807
Alexander 1810 - died between 1813 - 1820
William 1812 (alive on census)
Priscilla baptised 11/6/1814 abode Pant
Thomas baptised 7/4/1816 abode Pant Y Diffaith
Alexander baptised 26/3/1820 abode Pant Y Diffaith
Edward baptised 16/2/1822 abode Pant Y Diffaith
Margaret with some children can be found on the 1841 and 1851 census, her birth is given as Anglesey so that is as far back as I can go with her, as for her husband John, it is unfortunately another needle in a haystack with a name like John Parry and no age and we can't even be sure he was born in Ysceifiog either
I did have a look for possible John's but there were quite a few, he could have been anything up to 30 years older than her, and bearing in mind John is highly likely to have named his eldest son after his father there are no William Parry's having a John that I could see at the rite approx time. I haven't got the Ysceifiog burials only monumental inscriptions and unfortunately the Parry family isn't in it, but if somebody looks up the burial at the records office (between 1822 and 1841) you might strike lucky with an age.
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As you know William Edwards second wife Ann had 2 children, these were Lebbens Jones baptised 10/1/1841 bastard child of John Williams and David Jones baptised 17/5/1851 bastard child of David Jones
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I think I've done all I can for now, I've checked the records I hold for Ann Luke with no success I'm affraid, her marriage and baptism will be out there somewhere, another rootschatter suggested Tremeirchon (don't think I've spelt that right lol). You may be able to follow Sophia's Parry brothers further, and you never know by tracing not just your direct line you might unearth a valuable piece of information on one of the census returns. If you need any further Ysceifiog look ups just let me know ;D
Sarah
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Thank you for all of your help Sarah, it is much appreciated.
I will take some time to ponder this additional information & work out where to take it next.....
I may even take a break from my Welsh paternal heritage for a few days and start to look at my maternal line.... the Artell family from Chester : hoping this may be slightly easier, given the uncommon surname....
Thanks again, I could not have got this far without the help of this rootschat community
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No problem, happy hunting ;D
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If looking for information on Cheshire records hopefully this website will be of use :)
http://www.csc.liv.ac.uk/~cprdb/
Sarah
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Thanks for the tip Sarah.... :)
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It is said, "By 1835, the old church was in such a state of dilapidation that services had to be discontinued. The building was demolished, and a new church was erected on the same site during 1836 / 1837.The church is dedicated to St. Mary. "
Do the old Ysgeifiog church registers show that the demolished church was also dedicated to St.Mary?
Thanks, Toby Wbb.