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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: bryn394 on Tuesday 27 September 11 22:48 BST (UK)
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My 2x gt grandmother Eleonor LANDER was born St Pancras c1841, father was George Moseley LANDER (solicitor)
I cannot find anything on her birth, who her mother was, when her mother died (?).
Her father married Honora SCANLAN, 08 Nov 1856, condition batchelor. (I have the marriage certificate.) George married again in 1868 this time recorded as a widower.
She married William INWOOD, 09 April 1859 in the parish church St Pancras.
Eleanor went to Australia, arriving Mar 1862 with her 2 daughters; her husband had arrived the previous year.
In the 1871 census Eleanor was back in England less her daughters. I connot find any trace of her after this. Husband & daughters remained in Aust.
Summing up, no Info prior to her marriage in 1859, & no trace after 1871.
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
1861 census 2 St Pauls Crescent St Pancras - and another wife
George Mosely Lander 51 solicitor b Birmingham
Susan 22 wife b Gloucester
Mary 5 months dtr b St Pancras
Eleanor Inwood 18 dtr ditto
Mary E Inwood 1 g/dtr ditto
plus servants
Elizabeth Cutts 16
Thomas Hawkins 70
Ann Hawkins 60
RG9 Piece 119 Folio 123 Page 54
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I wonder if this could be George in 1851 but shown as George H. Were there any Lander witnesses to the 1856 marriage
John G Lander 40 solicitor b Birmingham
Eliza J 38 b Tariff - Aberdeen
Alice M 13 b Putney
Philadelphia M 12 b Oaks, Herts
Eliza G Lander 10 b St Johns Wood
John G Lander 9 ditto
William H Lander 7 ditto
Catharine A Lander 6 b New Rd
George H Lander 40 brother - unmarried - gentleman b Birmingham
plus 2 servants
Martha Hale 30
Catharine Lawrence 22
HO107 Piece 1604 Folio 282 Page 18
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The same brother who is living with George in 1871
He is unmarried in 1851, so he could have picked up Eleanor from one of the wives.
mm
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I wonder if this could be George in 1851 but shown as George H. Were there any Lander witnesses to the 1856 marriage
John G Lander 40 solicitor b Birmingham
John G Lander (brother, solicitor b Birmingham abt 1810) is with George and family in 1871, so this does seem to be a match.
1871: RG10/676/56/12
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He is unmarried in 1851, so he could have picked up Eleanor from one of the wives.
The trouble is that the wives seem too young to be Eleanor's mother. If I have the right Honora SCANLAN she was only 20 in 1851 (in service in St Pancras).
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1841 census: HO107/678 Book 11 Folio 13 Page 19
Grove End Rd, St John's Wood, Marylebone
John LANDER 30 Solicitor Not born in county
George do 30 Solicitor Not born in county
Eliza do 20 Scotland
Catharine GREEN 20 Ind Scotland
Philadephia LANDER 2 Not born in county
Georgina do 5 months
Martha HALL 20 F.S. Not born in county
Elizabeth NOYES 16 F.S. Born Middlesex
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The 1861 Susan is Susannah in 1871 so she was presumably the 1868 marriage
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A possible death for Eleanor although birthyear is out by several years
Eleanor Inwood aged 57 (1838) December qtr 1895 Chelsea 1a 249
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avm228. Thank you, i didn't have the 1841 census.
There is a possibility George & John were twins as their ages are always the same.
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Looks like they are twins, baptised on the same day
name: George Moseley Lander + John Gilbert Lander
event: Christening
event date: 25 Sep 1809
event place: Church-Lawton, Cheshire, England
father: George Lander
mother: Alice
mm
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possible marriage on Cheshire transcripts, fits in with Birmingham births
name: George Lander
event: Intended marriage
event date: 17 Mar 1805
residence: St Philips, Birmingham, Warwick
marital status: Widowed
spouse: Alice Gilbert
spouse's marital status: Spinster
but he cant make up his mind if he is a widower or not(maybe George was a chip off the old block)
ame: George Lander
event: Intended marriage
event date: 17 Mar 1805
residence: St Philip's, Birmingham, Warwick
gender: Male
age: 21
marital status: Batchelor
spouse: Alice Gilbert
spouse's residence: Salford, Manchester, Lancaster
spouse's age: 21
spouse's marital status: Spinster
mm
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What was the info on the Honora Scanlan marriage cert, about Honora??
Address, age, occupation
mm
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marymog. Thank you, i had the baptism for George Moseley in Cheshire but wasn't sure if it was correct, although the name is quite distintive. The marriage details confirm it.
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was Honora Scanlan a spinster? at the marriage?
mm
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Possible??
June 1843, LANDER, Helen, St Pancras, 1 283
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Hi,
Just for a location - in the Legal Observer 1833 (via Google Books) George Moseley Lander late of 4, Grays Inn Square - re-admission to the King's Bench
Junev
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I would like to thank all who have responded to my query.
Some of the info i had & some was new.
As you all know, any info that takes you forward is very usefull.
Bryn...
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Bryn
you missed my question about Honora was she a spinster at marriage?
mm
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marymog, sorry, i thought i had replied to your question.
The details of the marriage certificate are; 8 Nov 1856, George Moseley L, full age, bachelor, gent, 41 Gloucester st , father - George.
Honora Scanlan, full age, spinster, 41 Gloucester st, father - Michael Scanlan; married Registry office, St Pancras.
Honora's death from pneumonia, 23 Jan 1858, age 37. The informant was Biddy Dornin (signed with a mark) curious??
The 1851 census has her age as 20, born Ireland.
There is an Eleanor Lander in the 1851 census:-
HO 107/143?; 3 Abbey Terrace, Marylebone
household of James Gerrish, 55, Elizabeth Gerrish, 38, 6 children, 2 gr children, 1 f s.
Eleanor Lander, sister, age 12, born Oxfordshire.
Age fits, & she is the only Eleanor that i can find that is about the right age & not living with parents.
The only other thing that might fit is that Eleonor was an illegitimate daughter.
bryn.
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Honora's death from pneumonia, 23 Jan 1858, age 37. The informant was Biddy Dornin (signed with a mark) curious??
The 1851 census has her age as 20, born Ireland.
If she was 37 in 1858 it seems unlikely she was the same Honora who was 20 in 1851 ???
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Just purely as interest
Parish Nobbler
Diocese Meath
born abt 1844
baptised 11/06/1844
father Patt Dornin
mother Biddy Dornin
sponsor Owen Dornin
Other than this for pure interst there is no other Biddy Dornin as far as I can see but as you said "curious"
Louisa Maud
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If Honora was 37 in 1858 she would be born c. 1821 so she was old enough to be the mother of Eleonor, the one that was 20 was just in the right place, but not necessarily the right person.
there is a Hannah Scanlan in Marylebone
1851
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1488; Folio: 609; Page: 8;
1841 with older could be brother Michael a tailor.
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 719; Book: 16; Civil Parish: St Anne Blackfriars; County: Middlesex; Enumeration District: 10; Folio: 19; Page: 31;
mm
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avm228, thank you, it could be a different Honora, or it could also be that the person suppling the details on the census only guessed the age.
Honora was boarding with at least 7 others. The other scenario is that the age on the death certificate was incorrect.
bryn...
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possible marriage on Cheshire transcripts, fits in with Birmingham births
name: George Lander
event: Intended marriage
event date: 17 Mar 1805
residence: St Philips, Birmingham, Warwick
marital status: Widowed
spouse: Alice Gilbert
spouse's marital status: Spinster
but he cant make up his mind if he is a widower or not(maybe George was a chip off the old block)
ame: George Lander
event: Intended marriage
event date: 17 Mar 1805
residence: St Philip's, Birmingham, Warwick
gender: Male
age: 21
marital status: Batchelor
spouse: Alice Gilbert
spouse's residence: Salford, Manchester, Lancaster
spouse's age: 21
spouse's marital status: Spinster
mm
Hi,
I am also a descendent of George Moseley Lander and have had info passed down to me. I am a descendent of Anne Lydia, the sister of Eleanor.
Anne Lydia, increasingly used Lydia. She married John Saunders, a valet and latterly a boot retailer. THey had several children, Lydia Mabel (my grandmother), Winnifred, Victoria and Kay and others, several who I understnad died in child birth.
Your research confirms what I have already had passed down to me. George Moseley Lander was a descendent of either THomas Gilbert (MP for Lichfield) or his brother John Gilbert, Brindley's righthand man an engineer on the Manchester Canal and who died in 1796.
The Alice GILBERT confirms this.
You should be able to try linking from these two famous, well documented Englishmen to George Moseley Lander.
Best wishes,
- R
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Incidentally, if you check the Census returns, your questions are answered.
According to that, George Moseley Lander was 61, when his wife was 29.
Yes, there was 32 years difference between them.
- R
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Incidentally, consider Anne Lydia. SHe was REGISTERED at St Pancras, but actually gave LAMBETH as her place of birth at her marriage.
St Pancras is a business centre or at least would have been then. Lambeth would (and is) a residential area.
It looks very much as the hyper-busy George Moseley Lander popped into the local birth registry at, say, a lunchtime, when he actually lived in Lambeth. A check of the census returns confirms this.
- R
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Incidentally, during the First World War three of our Australian cousins turned up as a surprise on my family. My grandmother clearly remembered it and told me about it when she was alive. one of them was called EARL. Is this connected to you?
- R
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Hi...
spouse: Alice Gilbert
spouse's residence: Salford, Manchester, Lancaster...
It's not Lancaster, but LANCASHIRE.
And this ties in well with the idea of JOHN GILBERT being her father.
The Bridgewater Canal was nearing completion in 1784 and near to Salford, next to Manchester.
- R
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Here's the web page for John Gilbert
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gilbert_(agent)
- R
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Incidentally, consider Anne Lydia. SHe was REGISTERED at St Pancras, but actually gave LAMBETH as her place of birth at her marriage.
St Pancras is a business centre or at least would have been then. Lambeth would (and is) a residential area.
It looks very much as the hyper-busy George Moseley Lander popped into the local birth registry at, say, a lunchtime, when he actually lived in Lambeth. A check of the census returns confirms this.
- R
A birth could only be registered in the district in which it had taken place. The birth certificate will give the precise address of the birth, but in the meantime this appears to be the relevant baptism:
Baptism, St Paul's, St Pancras
12 February 1868
Anne Lydia and Alice Jessie, daughters of George Moseley LANDER (solicitor) and Susannah, of 2 St Paul's Crescent.
The family had moved to Brixton (Lambeth) by 1871 - the birthplaces of the children show that the move must have taken place before the birth of baby Eliza (8 months old in 1871) whose birthplace was Brixton in contrast to the older children who were all born in St Pancras. So Anne Lydia moved to the Lambeth area as an infant/toddler - perhaps not surprising if in later life she mistakenly thought she had been born there.
1871 ref: RG10/676/56/12.
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Hello -R,
Your reply to my query is most welcome, especially from a relative.
Firstly, if you have not already read it, get hold of & read the book by Hugh Malet "Bridgewater the Canal Duke 1736-1803". There is a lot of info in it on the Gilberts; the roll John played in the construction of the canal, it also debunks the theory that Brindley was the main engineer.
Sourced from the book is the following - John Gilbert married Jydia Bill, father William Bill, land agent to Lord Gower. (this where the name Lydia comes from)
John & Lydia had 3 sons, Robert, John, & George. The boys attanded Manchester Grammer. Robert & John were apprenticed to Mathew Bolton Jnr.
In the historical notes of the book Malet writes - "That is why George Moseley Lander, who was descended from both the Gilberts and the Bill, could write so emphatically in 1883........."
I have been trying to find out where the Moseley came from, it must be a family name as George's twin was John Gilbert (his mothers grandfather ?). Alice Gilbert's father was George Gilbert, (John's youngest son ?) hence the George.
At this stage i have no definate evidence linking George Moseley Lander with John Gilbert.
bryn......
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Firstly how are you sure that Alice Gilbert was not John's direct daughter?
Also, do you have any ideas about the Landers? in this might be the clue to the Moseley name.
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A Theory of Mine....
Consider these facts...
- In this era, loyal subjects would often call their children after the King/Queen
- They were often unimaginative about names. George, Thomas etc., but names like Astroflash or Apple would be unheard of, yet George Moseley Landers named one of his children "Philadelphia", an unheard of name.
- I have found one record of a Landers being a "Retired land owner" at 40 years old?
- I have found another, possibly he same, living at an old age with a young family, as if they were doing i out of charity.
- Landers is comparatively rare in England.
- THere are various references to Landers back to 1782 or so, and then it goes cold, with only a couple of references to a family of Landers in Dorset.
- Landers is a very extensive name in the USA and many Landers played a big role in its early, pre-revolutionary history... and he main place where the Landers were located was...Pennsylvannia, he capital of which is Philadelphia, the city that was the capital of the USA before Washington DC.
Theory...are we the opposite of everyone else? Given the timing of the US Revolution in 1776, were the Landers a loyalist family that had to flee the USA like many others, to return to England?
- R
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I look at the GIlbert records and see a thousand piece jigsaw...If only I could fit it together. Records repeatedly mention Walgrave on the Sowe. Sadly, some imbecile flattened the graveyard and turfed it in 1955.
Even so, as a tiny village, and to have this family so persistently there and to be affording weddings etc, it would give the impression of a wealthy family with a big house somewhere in the town. I wonder if there are land records somewhere that could help?
- R
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Just how sure are you that the info in the book is correct?
THe actual records that I have checked on line do not seem to tally. Remember, the book was written several decades before computerised scans and searches.
Walgrave on the Sowe would have been a tiny village that flooded regularly and had a population of just a few dozen. The possibility that there were an army of Thomases all running up records that don't comply with the book seems unlikely.
THere WAS a Thomas and Mary, but it appears to be a generation BEFORE the parents of THomas.
I have been through dozens of records on line and some clear and obvious themes are developing which I shall need to check and sort out...and if that lot is skewed, maybe the stuff about Alice Gilbert is too.
Finally, there is an ancient coat of arms associated with the Gilbert family. It might be possible to confirm the lineage using the registerations made at the Royal College of Arms in Victoria St in London.
- R
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At the time of writing the book Hugh Malet was lecturer in local history at the University of Salford.
The cousin Earl that your grandmother talked was Earl Cawder Gwyther, the other 2 would have been Rhyll Pembroke & Leo Milford Gwyther.
In a postcard that i have, sent by Earl to his sister (my grandmother) he tells her that he, Leo & Rhyll had just been in London. The card is dated 5th Sep.1916.
The families must have been in touch.
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Hi,
Firstly, do you have the family tree from Elenor down to you including Gwythers?
Secondly, I have spent virtually around the clock with piles of paper, assembling the THomas Gilbert part.
My thoughts are these...
...In 1665AD, London and much of the country was ravaged by plague, starvation from the farmer workers not being able to work due to sickness and the Great Fire of London which burnt the whole city down in 1666AD, but cleared the plague.
Hence, after 1666AD, there were many new opportunities, a lack of labour and every reason for survivors to marry and produce lots of kids. With the City of London burnt down, not through military action, but an accident, there was a whole new spirit of renewal in England, and with planners and architects scurrying about, the idea of everything being written down was suddenly appealing.
Hence would not tend to have kids outside marriage, but once married, women became baby farms, pumping out a kid virtually every year.
Furthermore, with all the scare of the plague, people would live in fear of the outside world, so people tended to stay put and marry people in the same village.
As a result, close sequences of births by people with the same first and surnames would probably be the same parents. My conclusions are in the next reply...
- R
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Gilberts appear for generations before 1665AD, but the first possibly recognisable chain starts with Thomas and Mary Gilbert.
Children from a Thomas and Mary Gilbert are...
- Ann
- Mary (bapd 24/11/1678)
- Eliz? (bapd 20/10/1680)...This is reg'd two pages AFTER the 1681 baptisms
- JAMES (bapd 26/3/1681)
- John (bapd 11/1/1685)
- Joseph (bapd 7/3/1686)
- Hugh (bapd 21/4/1689)
- Daniel (bapt 26/7/1691)
Children from a Daniel and Ann Gilbert are...
- Thomas (bapd 5/10/1718)
- Ann (bapd 22/10/1721)
A Daniel Gilbert and Elizabeth then marry in 20/6/1732
Children from a JAMES and Isobel Gilbert are...
- William (bapd 4/9/1714)
- Hugh (bapd 2/5/1717)
- THOMAS (bapd 7/6/1719)
- Isobel (bapd 5/3/1721)
- JOSEPH (bapd 8/12/1724)
- Elizabeth (bapd 14/5/1726, apparently died 20/9/1729)
- Elizabeth (bapt 14/6/1731)
If Joseph Gilbert actually changed his name to John Gilbert, then this would be a precise match.
James as their father would have been about 33 years old at the time of his marriage to Isobel, if he were the son of Thomas and Ann Gilbert.
- R
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Hugh Malet must gave had sources. What were these? They should be in the back of the book,
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Incidentally, have you considered whether Elenor might have spent some time in Tsarist Russia, visiting Anne Lydia?
In case, you are not aware of the story...
In 1884, Lydia saw an advertisement in the newspaper for a nurse/governess to look after very young children for a British family in Russia. The post required 21 year old fully qualified nurse who was fluent in Russian and had several years experience working with children. 16 year old Lydia had none of these, in fact she thought one just adds "OV" onto the English to speak Russian. When she arrived in Petrograd, the only Russian that she had learnt was the instructions to a taxi driver "Droits Kopec" to reach the British Embassy where she would meet the family. Fortunately, they were delighted with her dedication and she stayed with the Hubbard family until 1889 in Sisselburg, which, coincidentally, was colour photographed at the time by a special photographer of the Tsar to record his Empire. (The photo is now accessible online). During my 1990 visit to the Lenin State Library ikn Moscow, I found the Hubbards listed, although, as was the custom at the time, the name was spelt "GUBBARD" as there is no Russian "H".
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Major leap forward! AM continuing to use the Ancestry.co.uk facilities and have gained access to others' trees. By cross-referencing, I have dubiously driven the tree all the way back to 1625AD and Farley Hall.
You'll find my data under the tree there of THOMPSETT.
- R
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By the way, just explain, here in Canada, Ancestry.ca has biven people here 1 days trial membership and I'm trying to trace the entire family tree in that time, so I'm working 24/7 on it as a challenge!
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BREAKTHROUGH!!! ...On Susannah Cobb, moher of Elenor Inwood....=
Her place of birth was listed as Herestome. There is no such place. THis is an error in transposition.
It is HeresCOMBE. Once this is replaced, the family of Cobb comes tumbling out. THis could be a big lead for what you need to know. Maybe Elenor is registered somewhere as staying with or visiting her grandparents.
Best wishes,
R
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Hi,
The post card would be of great interest to me. The three Australian brothers visited my great grandfather's pub... except I am not sure which one. What EXACTLY does the postcard say and what is the postmark?
Best wishes.
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Quelquechosedautre.
Susanna Cobb could not possibly the mother of Eleanor, as they were approx. the same age!
The post card that mentioned being in London was dated 05 Sep 1916. It was writen by Erle Gwyther. He does not say that his brothers were with him, but there is not a lot of spce on a card.
Bryn.
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Hi,
Wonderful to hear from you!
Major developments since I last wrote...
- Have found a thing called the "Cheshire Bishop's Transcript" (not scheduled on Ancestry.com) yesterday which specifically schedules the Christening of George Moseley Lander on 25th Sep 1809 to the parents George Lander and Alice (Gilbert) at Church Lawton in Cheshire. Church Lawton is right on the border with Staffordshire and a particularly important place to the Gilberts. This is a key town on the Trent-Mersey Canal which links to the Bridgewater Canal and was engineered by Brindley and his team. Additionally, it stands on the main road notrth to Manchester from Litchfield where Thomas Gilbert was MP. Hope to schedule photos of Church Lawton on Ancestry.com shortly.
- The court case of Gilbert versus Royd has revealed a list of Gilbert connections and the connection to the Royds. This in turn has found invaluable links and allows the assemblage of much of the family tree as well as revealing that George Moseley Lander was one of 4 children. In addition to John Gilbert Lander, there was also William Henry Lander who turns up living at 19 Prospect Place in Wolcot, now a suburb of Bath and who served in the Royal South Gloucester Light INfantry Regiment and also Lydia Lander who I have had little time to analyse. Interestingly enough 19 Prospect Place is currently on the market for some 400,000 pounds and I have asked the agent for details to allow me to see actually the building where they lived. Hope to schedule these on Ancestry.com also.
- Have traced why John Gilbert Lander does not appear on the 1841 Census ANYWHERE...He was in PRISON!!! John went broke and was sent to the notorious Fleet Debtors' Prison in 1840, but left quite swiftly. It had been around since the time of William the Conquerer, but was closed down shortly after 1840. Since John looks to have been in a partnership with George Moseley Lander, it is hard to see how he would have escaped from being sent to Debtors' Jail too, but I have been unable to find him there and the UK Prison Service says that it does not have records that far back.
- Have also found a link to the Gould family whose most excellent web site http://www.natgould.org by the so called "Gould Diggers" schedules links of our family.
- New documents turned up in the 1990's and many of these are scheduled in a rare book that schedules comprehensive data INCLUDING the transcription of various Wills which are highly detailed, noting peoples relations. I have now ordered this book from Amazon, (there being only two copies available) called, "Agents of Revolution" (Paperback) by Peter Lead (Author). If I am correct, it will allow the family to be traced back to about 1400AD.
- Have also found evidence of a vicious split in the family in the early Nineteenth Century. The railways meant uttter death to the canals and leading the charge against the railways in Parliament was the Duke of Bridgewater, HOWEVER, it appears that some of the descendents of the Gilberts used their fortune to help FINANACE the growing railway network in the UK, creating quite a serious rift.
Finally, the 94,000 DOLLAR QUESTION... The postcard that you have... I know from this end, speaking to my grandmother long ago that all three were together when they visited England during the First Wold War. The key quesiot is WHERE did they visit. A big clue to this, I believe is the POSTMARK franking the stamp on the corner. COUld you advise what the POSTMARK says on it?
Best wishes
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